Can Dwarves Swim, and other watery stuff...

[easterlinge]

When Gimli came out of the Caves of Aglarond, he compared it to " a grotto at the bottom of the sea", with corals, anemones, etc.

As far as I know, Gimli never even saw the sea until after he went on the Paths of the Dead. How would the landlubber Dwarf know what the sea-bottom looked like?

Can Dwarves swim? Have they been underwater?

[Inoldonil]

Dwarves could swim if they learned, I mean, there isn't any genetic default that forbids them from swimming. But Dwarves do not learn how to swim, and greatly feared the ocean when they first set eyes on it.

A similar matter I've been wondering about is 'pearls' in Khazad-dum. What?

I don't think it states Gimli had never seen the ocean before, he only implies he payed no heed to it on the Ethir Anduin. Actually some seventy eight years earlier he had been living in the Dwarf-mines of the Blue Mountains, which is near the ocean, admittedly though the mines were on the eastern side, and in any case he isn't likely to go for a swim!

I think it can be explained by supposing Gimli might have added; 'or so I have heard'. He probably had heard what the bottom of the sea looks like, but had never himself visited the place.

But Dwarves in the Third Age do not appear to express any particular dislike for sailing, or being in the water. Thorin&Company knew how to handle the boat to get across the Enchanted River, Gimli never complained on his ride down the Anduin (as Sam might have), or indeed thought anything about much but the War when sailing up the Anduin to Minas Tirith. And than in the Fourth Age he sails overseas! Maybe he was a very exceptional Dwarf that indeed did his share of swimming and fishing in his youth.

[Edit: This should have been on the Lord of the Rings Books forum or on that of Middle-earth]

[easterlinge]

A dwarf swimming and frolicking on the beach would be a sight to see indeed!! Especially the bearded Dwarf-women...

Baywatch it ain't... :)

How old was Gimli at the War of the Ring? I assumed he was born and grew up in Erebor.

Khazad-dum must have done a lot of business with Elves and other folk. In addition to having mithril, it controlled the Redhorn Pass and was itself another way across the Misty Mountains. Trade would be where the pearls came from I think.

Thingol (or was it Finrod?) gave a huge pearl to the Dwarves for making the Nauglamir. Or was it for digging Menegroth? Or digging Nargothrond?

I think Gimli's aquatic knowledge was because the ancient Dwarves used to be friendly with Elves, and they got pretty chummy in the First Age, with Elves boring the Dwarves with their descriptions of trees and undersea scenes, and Dwarves boring the caverns while engaging the Elves with talk of gems and mining.

The pillars of Khazad-dum looked like huge trees right? But Dwarves don't live in the forest. Elves must have taught them about trees.

[Finduilas]

I would assume that Gimli was born a few years before the Quest of Erebor. If he were born afterwards he would have been under 60 years old.

Thorin was considered to be extremely young to be fighting in the Battle of Azanulbizar and he was 53 years old.

[easterlinge]

So how old does a Dwarf have to be before he comes of age? For hobbits, it's 33. 20 for Humans. What's the age when Elves mature? Surely not a few centuries? And I hate to think how old an Enting has to be before he's considered a mature Ent.

[Finduilas]

I have no idea.
I have the feeling it might have been older for the Numenoreans in the Second Age though.

[Inoldonil]

The large pearl as large as a dove's egg that was given to the Dwarves of the Ered Luin originally came from the Falathrim, Cirdan's people.

Dwarves don't need to know about trees, they can see plenty of them most of the time. You have to live in a pretty screwed up world not to know what trees are. ;)

Gimli was in his fifties when the Quest of Erebor began. He begged to go with the other Dwarves, but he was too young.

In the Third Age, Dunedain (Numenoreans) came of age later than 20, because Aragorn was stated to have come of age early when he was of that age.

Gimli's exact age can be found in Of the House of Durin on the family tree in the Appendices.

Lots of answers to Dwarf questions are in the Peoples of Middle-earth. I'll find the stuff about their age and such things, hopefully I'll be able to post it tomorrow.

[easterlinge]

Hey Inoldonil, did bmilder offer to make you a moderator? Says we both have been keeping things up here single-handed.

Where ARE the other guys? This place is beginning to feel like Moria. Big and empty.

What's a Dwarf's favourite weapon? Somehow everyone portrays them as mainly axe-wielders. But Thorin was pretty good with Orcrist the Elf-Blade.

Here's some likely weapons not considered by most people:

-short swords (useful in cramped tunnels with no room to swing)
-crossbows (Dwarves are too short to use longbows. It also fits their image as craftsmen and makers of mechanical stuff)
-various traps and snares in the tunnels. Odd that Moria wasn't booby-trapped.

And other stuff.

[Finduilas]

I check into this forum every day there is something new to read, I just put any new ideas onto my own board.

As to favourite weapons, I think Dwarves used axes most of the time.

Gimli's war-cry at the Battle of Helm's Deep translated as "Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!"

[Inoldonil]

Anyway, I am sure Gimli just heard about the sea-bottom. I myself have never swam to any bottom of the sea, but I could probably tell you what it's supposed to look like. Just like I could tell you that China exists, and give you a general idea of where it lies, even though I have never been there.

The main weapon of the Dwarves was indeed axes. Crossbows do not seem to be around at all back then in Middle-earth. They could and did wield regular-sized swords, and there were archers among them. Probably they used Dwarf-sized longbows, and such things. (I.e., long to a Dwarf). Many of the Dwarves of the Iron Hills marched into the Battle of Five Armies with mallets.

Here's the passages on Dwarven age in HoME XII, page 284-5

' Dwarves of different 'breeds' vary in their longevity. Durin's race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other peoples they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300).[17] A Dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100.

Dwarves remained young - e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting - until they were 30 or nearly that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240. Then they began to age and wrinkle and go white quickly (baldness being unknown among them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed. Almost the only physical disorder they suffered from (they were singularly immune from diseases such as affected Men, and Halflings) was corpulence. If in prosperous circumstances, many grew very fat at or before 200, and could not do much (save eat) afterwards. Otherwise 'old age' lasted not much more than ten years, and from say 40 or a little before to near 240 (two hundred years) the capacity for toil (and for fighting) of most Dwarves was equally great. '

[Grand Admiral Reese]

I don't see why a dwarf couldn't swim, and if Gimli were born prior to the Quest for Erebor, he'd been born in the Blue Mountains, near the sea.

[Inoldonil]

Nonetheless the dwarf-mines are on the eastern side of the Mountains, and Dwarves aren't likely to want to swim.

[easterlinge]

How big was the Dwarf colony in the Blue Mountains?

[Inoldonil]

I don't know. In the Elder Days, it was limited to two great cities, Nogrod and Belegost, on the eastern side of the Ered Lindon (Luin), the first a little North of Mount Dolmed on the other side, the second a little south. After the Drowning of Beleriand that whole area was gone, and the Gulf of Lhun was in its place, yet still there are supposed to be Dwarf-mines near there. We also know there are Dwarf-mines in the far North of the Blue Mountains, near the Ice Bay of Forochel.

[easterlinge]

Was it comparable to Erebor? Taken all together I mean.

[Inoldonil]

In mass? I suppose so. Why?