Kings and the Royal Line

[easterlinge]

Why was Elros elected as the first King in Numenor, and not some other lord of the Edainic Houses? Why would he take precedence? And what happened to the other lineages, like the lineage of Hador Goldenhead?

Speaking of Hador, since the Dunedain are derived from the Ancient Edainic Tribes, including the House of Hador, how come we have no blond Dunedain?

[Inoldonil]

Your first and second questions are bound together.

Elros was Halfelven and the brother of Elrond. His mother was Elwing. Elwing's mother was Nimloth, a kinswoman of Celeborn, who was a kinsman of Olwe the ruler of the Teleri of Alqualonde in the Bay of Eldamar, and of Elwe his brother, Elu Thingol, High King of the Teleri. And so Nimloth was a very _distant_ relative of Elwe.

But Elwing's father was Dior, whose mother was Luthien, the greatest of all the Eldar that ever lived. Luthien's father was Elu Thingol, and her mother was Melian the Maia, who was of close kin to Yavanna the Vala.

Dior's father was Beren, son of Barahir, son of Bregor, son of Boromir, son of Boron, son of Baran, son of Beor the Old, Father of the First House of the Edain.

But Elros's father was Earendil. Earendil's mother was Idril. Idril's mother was Elenwe of the Vanyar, but her father was Turgon, son of Fingolfin, son of Finwe the first High King of the Noldor. Earendil's father was Tuor, who of old was born in Hithlum during the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

Tuor's father was Huor. Huor's father was Galdor the Tall, the elder son of Hador Lorindol, whom you named, who was son of Hathol, son of Magor, son of Malach, son of Marach, the Father of the Second House of the Edain. Huor's mother was Hareth of the Haladin, daughter of Halmir, who was descended from Haldan, son of Haldar, son of Haldad, the leader of the Third House of the Edain when they entered Thargelion, or if he was not than his daughter Haleth was, and when she perished verily it went to Haldan.

But Tuor, grandfather of Elros as I have said, was the son of Rian. Rian was the daughter of Belegund, son of Bregolas, brother of Barahir, and so son of Bregor, son of Boromir, son of Boron, son or Baran, son of Beor the Old.

So may one say Elros came of Haldad, Beor and Marach, Fathers of Men. But so may one also say that he came of Finwe and Elwe, High Kings of the Eldar. Is not Finwe's wife Indis, who was either the sister of Ingwe Ingweron the High King of all the Eldar, or his neice? Yet also may he (Elros) be reckoned a kinsman of Melian the Maia and Yavanna the Vala. And if of Melian and Elwe than Luthien, and many others of great renown, such as Hador Goldenhead, of the line of Marach.

In that time there was no one else of greater lineage, save Elrond who's was equal, but he chose the fate of Elves, while Elros chose the fate of Men. What other King of Numenore would you have? Surely not some other lord of the Edainic Houses?

The Dunedain of the North were not descended from Marachians, but Numenoreans who were descended from the Beorians of Ladros (Dorthonion), according to Michael Martinez (I think he said it rather matter-of-factly, but if he was expressing an opinion I would not be one to argue, as he is rarely wrong). As you know the Beorians did not usually have golden hair. but the King's Men of South Gondor and Umbar, the Black Numenoreans were largely of Marachian origin. I fancy the Mouth of Sauron had golden hair.

[easterlinge]

What a long and tangled family tree!! Phew! I wasn't quite expecting so detailed an answer.

Hmmmm.... I thought the 3 Houses of the Edain were sort of merged during their long age in Numenor.... sort of like a melting pot. The Dunedain were just that, the Dunedain. So the 3 Houses still were sort of separate, despite being joined in Elros?

Now I start to wonder about the distribution of the 3 Houses of Dunedain in colonizing Middle Earth. The North were mostly Beorians, the South were mostly Marachians. I suppose the Gondorians were... Haladin? Haldadians? Mixed Haladin + Marachian?

Did this division have any part in the politics of Numenor?

So Elros through Earendil through Tuor was a Marachian, if reckoned through the fathers only, and so the Kings of Numenor would be more Marachian than anything else? Might this explain why the Marachians mostly became King's Men? It doesn't sound right though.

How many lords of the Edain survived the First Age? Hurin and Turin's line (I forget which house!) seemed to have become extinct (but their people survived). Barahir's line was nearly wiped out except for Beren, as was Huor's except for Tuor.

[Inoldonil]

So the 3 Houses still were sort of separate, despite being joined in Elros?

Not exactly. There was some mingling going on, although the Druedain did remain seperate from the rest. Michael Martinez once told me: The
Beorians eventually settled in western Numenor. If the Folk of Haleth
retained their identity they may have settled in the southern forests. But
the Marachians composed the largest part of the population.

Most of the northern Dunadan colonies in Middle-earth appear to have been
settled by Beorians. The Marachians were probably the ancestors of the
Kings Men who settled in Middle-earth south of Pelargir. Hence, I believe
the Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor were largely Beorian in descent and the
Black Numenoreans were largely Marachians in descent.

So it seems Elendil's people that escaped the Downfall were Beorians. This seemingly would be true of the Dunedain of Gondor and Arnor (mostly), but not of those of South Gondor and Umbar.

I think Elros is descended from most of the lords of the Edain, really. I'd have to check again.

[easterlinge]

I think it's sad that the Marachians turned bad.

Were the Haladin wiped out completely in the First Age? There's not asingle one of them in Arnor or Gondor?

[Inoldonil]

Well, the survivors of the Haladin in the First Age were the Halethrim, but they did get wiped out. Yet they were only a very small part of a much greater people. In the late Third Age you can still find them (the Gwathuirim) in Dunland, Bree, Anfalas of Gondor and maybe still the forest of Eryn Vorn. These last I would guess would be most like the Halethrim of old, save that they share the Dunlendings' hatred of the Numenoreans and their friends, which was due to the insain massacre of their ancient trees.

Actually the Dead Men of Dunharrow in life had been of this people, and some of the people in Gondor (besides the Anfalasians) are supposed to have origins in the Gwathuirim. You see swarthy Gondorians in the Lord of the Rings.

[easterlinge]

I read an article in "Parma Endorion", which mentions someone called the Druedain which were friends of the Haladin. Are these the Wild Men of Druadan Forest or related to them, or am I mistaken?

[Inoldonil]

You're right. The Wild Men of Druadan Forest were Druedain. You can read about them in Unfinished Tales. They were the Fourth Tribe of the Edain.

[Dúnedain]

This needs to be bumped for being a cool thread.

Valandil should dig this :p

[Lefty Scaevola]

The last of 'royal' ramily of the Haladin in Brethil was wiped out in in the unfininish story of "The Wandering of Hurin" Elors is descendened from a senior distaff branch through his Great Grandmother, Galdor's wife. We do not know if there are other senior distaff line elswhere. Elros is clearly the senior descent of Marach's line of the 3rd house. He appear to be the senior heir, through female descent of the house of Beor, with converging lines from both Bregolas and Barahir. We know from the stroy of Aldarion & Erendis from UT that there were other lines through female descent surviving in the house of Beor.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
This needs to be bumped for being a cool thread.

Valandil should dig this :p

Indeed I do! I was just reading something in PoME that talks about "Middle Men" - non-Numenoreans who were in Middle Earth. There's something about a group connected with the Beorians who were in Eriador - confirming what Inoldonil credits to Michael Martinez.

As far as the head of another house being king - both Men and Elves were pretty decimated at the end of the First Age. Elros would have had the highest lineage among them anyway, but there probably weren't too many who would compare... and besides, I remember having the impression it was sort of by 'divine appointment' - "We'll give you this island to be your home and Elros and his line shall rule you." (I'm not quoting from any book - just stating what I envision happening) And... as is already pointed out, Elros could claim descent from the heads of all three houses of the Atani.

As far as hair color - I imagine the Numenoreans being quite mixed. Aldarion was notably blond. I think some of the royal line of the north may have just been dark-haired by 'happenstance' - author's discretion. Don't know if the royal line there itself intermingled with the native 'Beorian types' - but perhaps they had a strong Beorian influence in the genes already. M Martinez also theorizes some heavy Numenorean immigration to Eriador - soon after the Numenorean kings begin to stray...

[Beor]

I think that by the time of the late stages of numenor, hair color and many other genes would be well distributed among the people, espically after we have all the houses having kids together, such as Hurin and Morwen and Huor and Rian.

also, this is off topic, but the Northmen who eventually became the Rohirrim, were they related to Marachs people, or what? An the Beornings? I havent read enough to know, and I have been wondering as of late.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The northmen are related to the Marachians, and the Beornings also UURC. The Breelanders are related to the wnd House.. Much of the human population of Eriador is related to the 3 houses of the Edain. The Forodwaith ate not.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Valandil
M Martinez also theorizes some heavy Numenorean immigration to Eriador - soon after the Numenorean kings begin to stray...

Yeah and I would think they would stray to other parts of ME as well. I say this because, somehow there had to have been Numenoreans in ME, cuz there is no way that many escaped the downfall, nor could there have been a ton of them with Elendil, ya know? This would also give credence to explain how the Black Numenoreans came about as well, possibly they left Numenor for evil purposes though...

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Yeah and I would think they would stray to other parts of ME as well. I say this because, somehow there had to have been Numenoreans in ME, cuz there is no way that many escaped the downfall, nor could there have been a ton of them with Elendil, ya know? This would also give credence to explain how the Black Numenoreans came about as well, possibly they left Numenor for evil purposes though...

His theory is outlined in one of those articles I referred you to... I could check which one and get you the link if you don't have it anymore. Basically though, he thinks some of the first of the 'Faithful' to colonize would have settled in Eriador - where they could be close to the Elves. Later, a sort of 'official' royal colony was set up at Pelargir - and he theorizes that later 'Faithful' colonists went there (even though controlled by the King of Numenor, there was a group of Elves close by at the time. Pelargir was the northernmost of the King's colonies (and the only one with Elves close by) so the places south - Umbar and others, would have drawn more of the 'King's Men'

Hair color - also (esp regarding the royal line of Numenor - which was a root of the royal lines of Gondor and Arnor) - most of the Elves had dark hair...

Wonder if this thread belongs more in 'Middle Earth' forum than Silmarillion...?:)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I'm afraid I get easily confused by genealogical interrelations.
:confused:
It says in Unfinished Tales:

"As for the Northmen, a few, it is said, fled over the Celduin (River Running) and were merged with the folk of Dale under Erebor (with whom they were akin)"
So were the Dale people related to one of the houses of the Edain, since the Northmen were the ancestors of the Eotheod?
And if so, what house?

[Lefty Scaevola]

The northmen and Dale folk were desdened from ancestors of Edain, thoses who stopped on their westward journey in the first age. This migration, at least for the 1rst and 3rd houses, sojurned in this area some time and camped around the (originally much larger) sea/lake that shrank down to the the sea of Rhun during the tummolts associated with the breaking of Angband and the sinking of Belariand.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Wonder if this thread belongs more in 'Middle Earth' forum than Silmarillion...? Well, I think it relates to the Sil well enough, and it is a pretty old thread anyway, so we'll leave it here.:)