Eowyn loves Wormtongue?

[Eowyn Telcontar]

Okay, I know EOwyn doesn't even like Wormtongue, she hates him, but why did she look happy when he put his hand on her cheek and said somethign about how she was so beautiful yet as "cold as spring clinging to winter's chin"? I was confused.:confused:

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yep, she had that 'I want you so badly look, but you are taken look, or their is a problem look'. Very strange. Let's not hope PJ goes down that path.

[Elf.Freak]

Maybe she's an attention seeker!;)
ok...so maybe i don't like Eowyn too much (she was SUPPOSED to be a brunette in the film, not blond!) but it makes you wonder...

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Eowyn is the best female charcter in the book and movie! That scene made me cringe, though. For a second, I thought she was going to kiss him. Miranda Otto is a lot more beautiful then Liv Tyler.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Elf.Freak
Maybe she's an attention seeker!;)
ok...so maybe i don't like Eowyn too much (she was SUPPOSED to be a brunette in the film, not blond!) but it makes you wonder...

Legolas is supposed to be dark-haired, but I certainly don't hear you complaining about that, hm? Anyway, the Rohirrim are blond, I'm almost certain.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Legolas is supposed to be dark-haired, but I certainly don't hear you complaining about that, hm? Anyway, the Rohirrim are blond, I'm almost certain. We don't know what color Legolas' hair is supposef to be. Tolkien never says.

As for Eowyn and Grima, I think in that scene he was showing her a bit of false pity, and at first she listened because she was so grieved over the death of Theoden's son. It may have been about following up to the remark that Eomer made to Grima before that about Grima watching Eowyn's steps too much.

[Blackboar]

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Legolas's hair was supposed to be brown!!

I was confused at that point of the film too Eowyn Telcontar!!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Blackboar
I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Legolas's hair was supposed to be brown!!

I was confused at that point of the film too Eowyn Telcontar!! Legolas' hair color is unknown.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I believe the relationship of eowyn and grima is rather disgusting. Grima is a disgusting worm (did he like eowyn in the books? I forget). Eowyn, I think by that scene, is very alone and very desperate, and yet at the same time the only thing hitting on her is one she hates. It sort of makes sense to me but its hard to explain, the impression I got from that. alternating lust/hate... well not lust exactly but you know what i mean... I mean come on she does seem very desperate.

[Sister Golden Hair]

It just seems as if he approached her at a very vulnerable time.

[unregistered]

I have to agree that it was only because he approached her at a very vulnerable time. But still I think sminty has a good point, (whered you get that name liz? I forget) she did seem very desperate.

[Elfhelm]

Grima is called wormtongue because he is borrowing Saruman's power of the "voice". I don't think Tolkien explains how Grima borrows this power, but it is clear that he has some sort of power of suggestion which was given so he could hypnotize Theoden. A short story by Thomas Mann that was very popular in the 30's called "Mario and the Magician" similarly criticized the power of wicked leaders over the minds of the weak, and that story also ends with ... well I won't tell.

It seemed to me that the point of that scene in the movie (it's entirely contrived in case anyone hasn't read the book) is to show Grima trying to use the power that Saruman gave him for his own gain, and to clarify his primary motive in a dramatic sense. Later we see his tearful eye when Saruman tells the Uruk-hai to kill everyone at Helm's Deep. You can almost hear him thinking that his whole reason for siding with Saruman is now useless because Saruman just ordered Eowyn's death. And this, I gather, will set up what happens next, which I won't spoil if you haven't read it.

But yeah, during that scene I was thinking, "just lift your knee very quickly!" Eowyn has always been one of my favorite characters, that's why I'm Elfhelm. :)

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I was wondering about the tear in his eye part.... It crossed my mind that it was because saruman had just ordered eowyn's death... but then he had helped plot her (and all of rohan's) death right? so i came to the conclusion that the huge armies of orcs and stuff stressed his eyes... or something... undramatic...

[WallRocker]

I think that PJ was just tryin gto show the effect of Wormtounge's words on diffrent people. It looked to me like Eowyn had a diffucult time resiting, but only becaues Wormtouges words were so powerful. Remember, Eowyn says 'Your words are poison' right before she pulls away.

[unregistered]

Maybe he was really happy, everyone was going to die, yeah

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I think only poopies like yourself would be crying with joy at the destruction of the human race :D

[Shadowfax]

[never mind]

[Artanis]

Originally posted by WallRocker
I think that PJ was just tryin gto show the effect of Wormtounge's words on diffrent people. It looked to me like Eowyn had a diffucult time resiting, but only becaues Wormtouges words were so powerful. Remember, Eowyn says 'Your words are poison' right before she pulls away. I agree that that's what they're trying to show in the film. I wonder why she suddenly finds the strength to resist. Perhaps it is when Wormtongue actually touches her (if memory serves me right), that she realises what he is trying to do.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Elf.Freak
(she was SUPPOSED to be a brunette in the film, not blond!)
All the Rohirrim are blond.

[unregistered]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
I think only poopies like yourself would be crying with joy at the destruction of the human race :D


I'm not a poopie! lol this should probably be continued in pms...

[Falagar]

Legolas' hair color is unknown.
He's a Silvan elf, right? Most of the Silvan elves was blondes, if I remember correct....

[Firhithiel Greenleaf]

I think that Éowyn was being kind of bewitched, in a way, by Wormtongue, during that scene. You know how he was all like touching her cheek and all that crap? Supposedly, he was supposed to "get the woman he wanted", as long as he helped Saruman. Maybe this was part of the whole big I-serve-Saruman plan. *shrug* I don't know, that was just my guess. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Éowyn, no matter how weird she is, would want Wormtongue. After all, she told him that his "words are poison", didn't she? Mad props for that! --Firhithiel

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
He's a Silvan elf, right? Most of the Silvan elves was blondes, if I remember correct.... Legolas was a Sindarin Elf who's father had blonde hair. We do not know what his mother was. Since we do not know then his hair color is a mystery.

[azalea]

Consarnit, my post was lost! Well, I was trying to say that yes, he was bewitching her w/ his words and voice at a time when she was vulnerable and feeling trapped, so it is believable that she might briefly fall under his spell.
In the book it is surmised by Gandalf that Saruman had promised him the spoils of Rohan, including Eowyn, in exchange for his service to him. Eomer states that he knew Grima had a thing for her, and had wanted to kill him because of that. Gandalf states that "Saruman is apt to overlook his bargains" and Grima says "You lie!" Theoden then gives him a choice to ride w/ him into battle or leave for good, which is why he is let go.
Just FYI.

[cassiopeia]

I think Eowyn just needed some comfort, Theodred had just died and no one else was there to comfort her. She listened to his words and then realised they were poison and so escaped from him. As for Grima's tear at Orthanc, my interpretation of that was he finally realised what was happening: Saruman was going to kill all of the Rohirrim. Maybe this will be the reason he kills Saruman in the ROTK.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Maybe this will be the reason he kills Saruman in the ROTK.

But in the movie, he won't kill Saruman. Saruman is dying on a spiked wheel because they cut the Scouring.

[azalea]

But maybe Grima pushes him out of the window and that's how he falls onto it. I hope that's how they do it. He has the motivation, and that way it makes it at least similar to the books.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
All the Rohirrim are blond.

Some were siad to be Dark-Haired, though they were off Dunlendish descendancy.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by azalea
But maybe Grima pushes him out of the window and that's how he falls onto it. I hope that's how they do it. He has the motivation, and that way it makes it at least similar to the books.

Your right, that would be a lot better.

[LuthienTinuviel]

i am undoubtedly sure that i read:
That Wormtounge DOES push Saruman out of a window, and then he falls onto his own machinery. Kind of a nice end isn't it, like a double punch.

[eowyngirl14]

As I have said numerous times, Eowyn should ahve slapped Wormtounge! That disgusting creep deserves to die!

I don't remeber reading what color hair Legolas had, but I am almost positive it says that Eowyn has long blonde wavy hair somewhere... just like she does in the movie!:)

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Grima is called wormtongue because he is borrowing Saruman's power of the "voice". I don't think Tolkien explains how Grima borrows this power, but it is clear that he has some sort of power of suggestion which was given so he could hypnotize Theoden. A short story by Thomas Mann that was very popular in the 30's called "Mario and the Magician" similarly criticized the power of wicked leaders over the minds of the weak, and that story also ends with ... well I won't tell.

It seemed to me that the point of that scene in the movie (it's entirely contrived in case anyone hasn't read the book) is to show Grima trying to use the power that Saruman gave him for his own gain, and to clarify his primary motive in a dramatic sense. Later we see his tearful eye when Saruman tells the Uruk-hai to kill everyone at Helm's Deep. You can almost hear him thinking that his whole reason for siding with Saruman is now useless because Saruman just ordered Eowyn's death. And this, I gather, will set up what happens next, which I won't spoil if you haven't read it.

I agree 110% If I didn't read through this thread, I would have said the same thing :D

[Lady of Rivendell]

I agree with all the people that said that Wormtongue was using his " power of persuasion " over Eowyn. Combind that with her feeling depressed, forgotten and lonely......

I also think that scene shows her incredible strength as she "snaps" out of it and proceeds to tell him off.

Then again, I'm biased. I think Eowyn is one of the most complex and interesting characters in the story. =-)

[Eglantine Banks]

The Grima tear is an interesting thing and adds a dimension of sympathy or complexity to his well-presented character in the movie. It seems clear in the book that Grima desires Eowyn, and that part of his "pay" for helping Saruman is that he will have her (as part of the "spoils of war"). Maybe in the movie, the tear indicates that this is the first Grima has heard that Saruman's plan is to destroy all the Men, including Eowyn. Or perhaps, he just is a bad guy with a sensitive side and at that moment he's visualizing the children of Edoras all being killed.

One of the (many) problems with the movie adaptation of TTT is that in the movie, Saruman is out to destroy the entire race of Men. That isn't his plan in the book; he wants to conquer and rule, not destroy. In the movie it shows that there are Men among Saruman's armies -- thus creating an inconsistency I can't figure out: Saruman has Men among his armies, but his plan is to destroy the race of Men altogether, so why would those Men serve in his armies (toward their own destruction), and what is Saruman's intention after the "good" Men (Rohirrim, etc.) are destroyed -- will Saruman order the orcs in his forces to turn on the Men and kill them all? See the problem?

Saruman's plan of genocide, as opposed to his intent to conquer and rule, is just another case of PJ and Co. not thinking through the meaning of a bit of dialogue or plot device.

-Eglantine

[legolasluvr2931]

Remember that Eowyn says "Your words are Poison." In the book, it describes how Wormtongue 'controls' Theoden's mind. When he touches Eowyn's cheek and talks to her, she for a second is sorta paralized by the kind words that are spoken to her. Wormtongue can put you in a trance with his words, week people. That is why he controled Theoden, Theoden needed someone and he let Wormtongue control him without knowing what was happening.

[legolasluvr2931]

I like Legolas' hair. I think it suites him!!

[Artanis]

I've just watched the movie 3rd time and I've changed my mind. Now I don't think Grima has much power over Eowyn, other than what he gets through Theoden. I don't think he tries to seduce her, he thinks he will get her nevertheless after the fall of Rohan. He is mocking her, saying (not exact words): "How sad for the King to lose his sole heir", and "Oh, but you are alone", and "your life is shrinking", "these walls are fencing you in" and so on. I think Eowyn is reacting like she does because she knows his words are true. She is skilled with weapons, she is unafraid, she is proud, and she has a strong desire to carry out honourable deeds. She wish to se the king restored, and her people to be brave warriers. Instead she is forced to watch her uncle, the King, fall into dotage, and the warriors, including her brother, are sent in exile. It is not desire for Wormtongue she reveales, but uproar, a desire for another life.

[Firhithiel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by legolasluvr2931
I like Legolas' hair. I think it suites him!!

I agree with you! If he had brown hair he would look funny. Or maybe he wouldn't, because we'd all be used to seeing him with brown hair and then people would be arguing about whether or not he was brown-haired. Hum hoo.... ~~F. G.

[eowyngirl14]

Originally posted by Lady of Rivendell
.......
Then again, I'm biased. I think Eowyn is one of the most complex and interesting characters in the story. =-)

YAY! Eowyn rules!:)
I really didn't understand Grima's tear... I couldn't see any emotino on his face, so it really confused me...:) Was he sad, angry, depressed, or crying for joy? I couldn't tell in the least!:D

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I thought the tear was because of the wind, as I did not see any sort of emotion on his face. But perhaps those who said it could be realization of what would really happen to the people of Rohan are right. . .oh well. . .

Anyway, I would agree with Artanis--I think Grima was saying that because he knew it was true, and Eowyn knew, and he said it almost in mocking. But those words reminded her of the cage she already felt, and strengthened that feeling, methinks. Rather than any sort of 'lust' or whatever, I think the look on her face was realizing that his words were in part true, at least about the cage she felt.

Just want to add also that I thought Miranda Otto made a wonderful Eowyn, and was almost exactly like the book. . .and Eowyn was always my favorite character, so that made me especially happy. :D

[azalea]

I'm going to repeat myself here. The tear was for Eowyn. Saruman says leave none alive. It was well est. beforehand that Grima lusted after Eowyn, and if none are left alive, that means her, too.
And Grima DID want her. It was not mocking, but it was said in a mock tone, because he did not feel at all sorry that Theodred had died. This seemed to give him a "legitimate" avenue to the throne of Rohan, as Eomer was banished. Thus taking him closer to his goal of having her. He was simply using words of mock pity to work his spell on her. But that is different than mocking her. She of course despised him, but as everyone has said, it's her mindset combined w/ his arts that allow that brief lapse in her hatred of him.

edit: And for the love of Pete, how did Legolas' hair color make its way into yet another thread?:rolleyes:

[Sister Golden Hair]

And for the love of Pete, how did Legolas' hair color make its way into yet another thread? Good question.:)

[eowyngirl14]

I still don't think that tear was well explained... Aaahhh! Legolas is taking over the thread!:)

[Artanis]

Grima Wormtongue has every reason to shed a tear: He was expelled from Rohan, and he has just learned that Sarumann has betrayed him and that his people will all be slain, including Eowyn, the promised reward and his object of desire.

[Dúnedain]

I think you can also take the tear a bit farther and combined with the other things said which I agree are part of it, however I think he also shed a tear of redemption there as well, as in thinking the army was beautiful and that he would exact his revenge against Rohan and losing the love of his life through the wonderous army. I think all of those things combine into the tear, I don't think you can cut it short and say, "Yes it is because he loves Eowyn and she will now die", no, it is everything culminated together, joy, sadness, revenge, pity, etc...

[Dolenloteiel]

I totally agree with Azalea. His tear was for her. He knew he could not have her, and that made him sad. (Rightly so, Eowyn is a noble and justly beautiful woman) Wormtongue knew she would die, but still he lusted after something he could never have. His words are poison, his intentions are evil, and bravo Eomer for telling him off in the movie!!! (although he himself is exiled, poop:mad: )

[Evenstar1400]

I thought the part with Eowyn and Wormtounge was freaky. she got all like maybe im enjoying this. it was just wrong.

[eowyngirl14]

okay... I sorta get Grima's tear now!:) I agree with Evenstar1400!:)

[Sminty_Smeagol]

Originally posted by Artanis
Grima Wormtongue has every reason to shed a tear:...Sarumann has betrayed him and that his people will all be slain, including Eowyn, the promised reward and his object of desire.

Saruman betrayed him? D.o

[Artanis]

He was promised to get Eowyn as a reward.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

But, in a way, Grima also failed Saruman. He was supposed to stay with Theoden and make sure he stayed in his half-conscious, possessed (according to movie) state. Instead, he 'allowed' Gandalf to come and release Theoden from Saruman's grasp, thus failing his assignment, right? He didn't do everything according to orders, so he doesn't get the promised reward. Neh?

[Artanis]

Well I suppose you could see it that way, but I don't think Sarumann would have left Eowyn alive even if Grima had succeeded.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Probably not. Tricky guy, that Saruman :)

[Tawfret Melee]

:D I love all of your interpretations about that one tear! I also just attributed it to the wind and the noise... and usually I'm reading things into scenes REALLY quick!

Now I'll have to go see the Two Towers again... thanks all!

Oh and for the record, Eowyn is INDEED awesome!

[unregistered]

Originally posted by Dúnadain
I think you can also take the tear a bit farther and combined with the other things said which I agree are part of it, however I think he also shed a tear of redemption there as well, as in thinking the army was beautiful and that he would exact his revenge against Rohan and losing the love of his life through the wonderous army. I think all of those things combine into the tear, I don't think you can cut it short and say, "Yes it is because he loves Eowyn and she will now die", no, it is everything culminated together, joy, sadness, revenge, pity, etc...

Exactly my thoughts

[Huan]

As for Grima's tear, I feel so dumb! That tear has been a total mystery to me since seeing it the first time, and it never crossed my mind that it was for Eowyn. Of course! I still think the tear is very ambiguous, though, and couuld represent many other things as well. It could mean, as others have said, that faced with the real possibility of total war, he finally shares some human compassion for the intended victims of this unprecedented army. But actually, I had been seeing it differently, that the tear in fact enhances Grima's vileness: he'd never dreamt that such an army could ever be assembled, and the sight of it is overwhelmingly wonderful to the nasty snake. Or maybe just all of the above.

[azalea]

Grima is completely selfish, and I don't think a villian such as he (him?) would shed a tear of remorse for anything but the loss of his desired "object." I also don't think he would be the emotional type of guy to shed a tear of happiness or wonder at that army. He would more likely gawk in awe and amazement, but really, it is my belief that it is for nothing more than the loss of the fair Eowyn. I think it more likely if it is to be interpreted otherwise that it be for the loss of his people than the joy of seeing that army, though.

As for doing his job, he succeeded very well! How could he have stopped Gandalf anyway? His power would have been NO match in any case. He managed to keep Theoden incapacitated for a long time, time enough for Rohan to be flanked by evil and for them to be caught completely unprepared to fight the vast army that Saruman was able to assemble in that time. So at that point he was just maintaining the status quo. Things turned out differently than they had planned, but they still thought they'd succeed. Luckily they did not!:)

[eowyngirl14]

Originally posted by Artanis
He was promised to get Eowyn as a reward.

Where are you all getting that from? If it was in the book, I must haev missed it!:)

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by eowyngirl14
Where are you all getting that from? If it was in the book, I must haev missed it!:)

In the movie, there is the part right before Eomer is banished that he is accusing Grima of being Saruman's spy, and he says something like, "too long have your eyes dwelt upon my sister. . ."

It's definitely in the book, but I can't come up with a quote right now.

[azalea]

Originally posted by eowyngirl14
Where are you all getting that from? If it was in the book, I must haev missed it!:)

Look in Book 3, ch.=The King of the Golden Hall. I posted about it on page 2 of this thread.

[eowyngirl14]

Dang it all! My copie's at school, will have to wait untill tomorow... thank though! I will re-read that section!

[Legolaslvr!]

This thread is very confusing!!!!! Arn't we supposed to be talking about the relationship between Grima and Eowyn????????????????:cool: :cool:



Let me know when ya stop fitin' 'bout the colour of peoples hair in lotr!!!!!

[eowyngirl14]

Originally posted by Legolaslvr!
This thread is very confusing!!!!! Arn't we supposed to be talking about the relationship between Grima and Eowyn????????????????:cool: :cool:


I think so... just smile and nod! It's helps to add a fake laugh in here and there! 'Oh yes! I understand completly!' thinking *what the hell are we talking about?*:)

[samwise of the shire]

Originally posted by Eglantine Banks
In the movie it shows that there are Men among Saruman's armies -- thus creating an inconsistency I can't figure out: Saruman has Men among his armies, but his plan is to destroy the race of Men altogether, so why would those Men serve in his armies...
-Eglantine
Eglantine, the wildmen of the hills weren't an addition of PJ's...that was an original bit. In Chapter 8 it says that the Riders of Rohan took the swords of the Dunelandings and put them to work to help with the reconstruction of Helms Deep, so that was a bit where PJ was staying true to the plot.
As for as the destruction thing goes. If you think about it Boromir says that only Rohan comes to Gondors defense. If Rohan is destroyed that would make Gondor more supceptible to Saurons armies. I think that what Saruman was aiming for was the destruction of ROHAN...not of all men. And the Dunlandings were not of Rohanish descent...they were from Dunland towards the north west of Rohan on the other side of the Misty Mountains so that excludes them from the destruction of Rohan.
I think that the tear in Wormtongues eye was because he saw the might of the army Saruman had created...and he was so over come by the hugeness he started crying...the bawl baby. Actually I think he was genuinly sorrowful over the fact Eowyn was going to be killed. :)
Cheers,
Sam

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The movie makes it seem rather like his intent is to destroy all Men. And, of course, his recruitment does not fit well with that.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
The movie makes it seem rather like his intent is to destroy all Men. And, of course, his recruitment does not fit well with that.

Although it does make sense in a sort of way. . .needed Rohan out of the way to get to Gondor, so they destroy Rohan, using whatever means available. If this means using the Dunlendings, it works, right, because they can always be destroyed afterward, and it's not like they're the organized 'civilized' people that Gondor and Rohan are. It's not like they're a strong force to contend with, whereas Rohan has a cavalry. . .but considering how much they were dumbing down the rest of the movie, you're right, it is nonsensical to have some sort of strategy you'd actually have to think about to understand :rolleyes: