Weird displays of power

[townimbecile]

As I read through The Silmarillion, and the other works appended to the beginning (Ainulindale, Valaquenta in my publication) the explanation of power seems confusing, if not inconsistent.
For example, in the Ainulindale, it says that Aule has almost as much power and skill as Melkor, but in the Valaquenta, he is third on the list of Valar, and that list is ever after adhered to. Furthermore, if Melkor is more powerful than the Manwe, the most powerful Vala, why is he scared to death about Tulkas? And what about Ungoliant? How in the world is Ungoliant so much more powerful than Melkor? Even if she has absorbed power, how does she even have the potential to compete with Melkor? I supposed much can be explained by Melkor's power residing in those whom he has perverted, which is stated in the Silmarillion, like everything, later than necessary, but it still does not explain the whole Tulkas thing. Why did Tulkas even come to help, since every time he encounters Melkor he simply pins him easily, when Orome is said to be almost as strong as Tulkas? I just don't understand.

[Captain Stern]

It doesn't say that Aule has almost as much power and skill as Melkor, it just says that he almost had as much skill as Melkor. It says in the Silmarilion that whatever any of the Valar could do Melkor could do better with the exception of Ulmo as Melkor was weak with water.

Melkor squandered his power until he became an average Vala by all accounts. Also he was the only Vala who knew fear. His power was spread around a lot too, in the dragons, orcs e.t.c These 3 facts seem to point out why he got his butt kicked by Tulkas. Tulkas seems to keep all his power unlike Melkor who uses it like running water.

The light of the 2 trees obviously seemed to contain increadible power and that is why Ungoliant was more powerful. I'm not sure but I think even at that point
Melkor had squandered a large portion of his power and if he might have been at the peak of his powers he probably would have been able to defeat Ungoliant.

[Inoldonil]

>>For example, in the Ainulindale, it says that Aule has almost as much power and skill as Melkor, but in the Valaquenta, he is third on the list of Valar, and that list is ever after adhered to. &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
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As Stern said, in the Ainulindale it states Aule had skill and knowledge scarce less than Melkor, not power, and moreover this was in the fabric of Earth.

The list in the Valaquenta where it lists the name are 'in due order', power is not mentioned. 'Power' is probably what is referred to ('Valar' means 'Powers'), or 'might' and 'majesty' rather, but I do not think this means in might of arms only. Combat does not seem to play a large factor in the order, as Tulkas is accounted last (before Melkor). I think rather it means 'overall might', as one might say, first the realm in which the Vala has power, and second the amount of power that Vala has in the realm.

Thus Lorien, whose realm is 'visions and dreams' (as far dreams go for Elves), is accounted lesser than Mandos, whose realm is 'Death' (as far as death goes for Elves). Mandos is the Doomsman of the Valar and knows all things that will be, save only things in the freedom of Eru. No such abilities are attributed to Lorien.

As Stern said, Melkor alone of the Valar knew fear.

You have to read the Darkening of Valinor more carefully. Melkor put his power into Ungoliant so that she could accomplish her task, and thus became less powerful. He continued to do this, until so much of his power and will was in the world that he could no longer change form. Melkor was less powerful because of the might that had gone out of him, and Ungoliant moreso because of that that went into her, and the light that she devoured.

Why did Tulkas even come to help, since every time he encounters Melkor he simply pins him easily, when Orome is said to be almost as strong as Tulkas?

Should he have stayed Outside, simply because he could defeat Melkor easily? That seems to me to be all the more reason of why he should enter into the world. The Ainur were losing the War and they needed Tulkas' help. &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

Also I don't know that it is stated Orome was almost as strong as Tulkas. It says he is less strong, but not by how much. Apparently Tulkas alone among the Ainur had the talents to defeat Melkor in combat. In any event when Tulkas first entered Arda he did not 'fight' Melkor, but Melkor 'fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda'. Tulkas' anger passes like a mighty wind and scatters cloud and darkness. Also it does not say that Tulkas defeated Melkor easily, only that they wrestled and he won. There was evidently some fight in the matter.

[Captain Stern]

It says in the Silmarilion:

If Orome is less strong than Tulkas he more than makes up for it in anger.

It also says that Tulkas can outrun anything on Ea and perhaps the reason he's the one that always fights Morgoth is because he gets there before Orome does :)

[The Black Lieutenant]

Is it Eru that Melkor fears, or the other Valar (or both) or is it himself? Or all three? Does anyone know or care to speculate?

[Captain Stern]

Morgoth seems to be afraid of quite a few people :lol:

Let me think:

All the Vala probably especialy Tulkas.
Turgon.
Melian and Thingol.
Fingolfin.

[Inoldonil]

And that is not even to mentioned Men and Elves at different times as a whole, and in unnnamed persons, and Arien the Sun-maiden. He was just a very fearful, hateful entity.