Evil Elves

[easterlinge]

Is there such a thing as a real evil Elf? Not an Elf driven and compelled to do evil like the Feanorians, but just plain mean nasty bone-deep evil.

[easygreen]

Maeglin?

Btw, I think Curufin and Celegorm are quite evil. That is, they don't just do evil, in the story of Beren and Luthien they ARE evil.

[Sephiroth9611]

I'd say Eol. His son was captured by Morgoth before he betrayed Gondolin. He didn't seek out Morgoth in the first place.

[Captain Stern]

I don't think there are any evil elves even the ones you mentioned. They were simply either less good, had weaker personalities coupled with the hardships and betrayels endured in their life.

Aredhel did love Eol for a time, she couldn't love an evil person.

Maeglin's place in the councils of Turgon and the heart of Idril had been usurped by Tuor so something had to give.

Celegorm had ever been the friend of Aredhel and Orome enough so that Orome gifted him with Huan. Also the doom of Mandos weighed more heavily on Celegorm and Curufin.

[Lord Xanthyz]

No. Curufin and Celegorm were driven by the oath Feanor made them take. Eol was mad about his son and wife running away along with his son stealing his sword made out of a metal he discovered.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

Maeglin. Even his dad Eol wasn't as bad as he was. Plus, he lusted after his own first-cousin(too close for comfort for ELves)!

[easygreen]

To all of you folks who don't think Curufin and Celegorm are evil: If I ever do a crime, I sure hope you're on the jury.

Of course they are evil. They weren't always evil - heck, Sauron wasn't evil in his beginning. But when the faithful Huan turns against Celegorm, that says something about what Celegorm has become. And when Celebrimbor repudiates Curufin his father, that says something too.

Shooting arrows at Luthien the beloved is just about as vile as it gets. Look at the text:

"But Curufin, being filled with shame and malice, took the bow of Celegorm and shot back as they went.; and the arrow was aimed at Luthien." (215)

Tolkien gives Curufin's motive here. No, it isn't the Oath that's driving him to attempt murder. He's driven by "shame and malice" - the same two motive forces that drive Sauron back to his old evil ways after the fall of Morgoth.

[Inoldonil]

There are of course not any Elves, Orcs, Hobbits, Men or Dwarves that are wholly evil, that is, irredeemable. But there are definitely corrupt Elves. It is not very difficult to find racism among individuals (such as Elwe or Saeros), and there were other individual examples. I am sorry, but Faenor was corrupted and became very evil.

There is even larger examples of Race. Many of the Northern Sindar in the First Age were actually in the service of Morgoth, and used by him as spies. By the time the War of the Ring had come the Quendi had experienced so much sorrow and evil it was hard to imagine doing anything but resisting the Dark Lord.

In Letter 154, Tolkien said: Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are _not_ wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasuance, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' - and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs. But in any case this is a tale about war, and if war is allowed (at least as a topic and a setting) it is not much good complaining that all the people on one side are against those on the other. Not that I have made even this issue quite so simple: there are Saruman, and Denethor, and Boromir; and there are treacheries and strife even among the Orcs.

In Letter 131 Tolkien said the Fall of the Elves 'is into possessiveness and (to a less degree) into perversion of their art to power.'

Later in the letter he says: So, proceeding, the Elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial. ... The main body of the tale, the Silmarillion proper, is about the fall of the most gifted kindred of the Elves, their exile from Valinor (a kind of Paradise, the home of the Gods) in the furthest West, their re-entry into Middle-earth, the land of their birth but long under the rule of the Enemy, and their strife with him, the power of Evil still visibly incarnate.

You see it must be understand the Rebellion was the Fall of the Elves.

[Lord Xanthyz]

Curufin was CRUEL and sick in what he did, but he was bound by Feanors oath....same with Celegorm

[easygreen]

Sorry, friend, they are EVIL.

Curufin and Celegorm have been totally corrupted. The Oath starts the ball rolling, but this kind of evil has a momentum of its own:

a) They betray Finrod, who sheltered them when the leaguer was been broken.
b) Undermine the rule of Orodreth.
c) Abduct Luthien.
d) And attempt to murder Beren and Luthian, wounding Beren nearly to death.

They show no remorse for any of these crimes. I'll grant that Maglor and Maedhrosm are never totally corrupted. They show remorse for their various cruel deeds. Maglor even suggests leaving the Oath unfinished. Compare this to the cool malice of Celegorm and Curufin when they are driven from Nargothrond.

The lack of remorse is the most striking thing about Celegorm and Curufin. That's what I call evil.

[Lord Xanthyz]

Alright, you got me there....=)
But they weren't BORN evil...like orcs were....they chose or became that way...

[easterlinge]

In other words, the Elves are just human.... :/

So who's the most evil Feanorian you can think of?

I'd say Caranthir the Cruel.

[Inoldonil]

Actually it was Maedhros who wanted to repent (but didn't) and Maglor who drove him on, believing forgiveness beyond hope.

[easterlinge]

"Actually it was Maedhros who wanted to repent (but didn't) and Maglor who drove him on, believing forgiveness beyond hope. "

Are you sure? I seem to remember it was Maglor who wanted to give up. Have to check again.

Maedhros brought up Elros and Elrond. Interestingly, much later in the Third Age, Elrond advises Gimli against swearing an oath lest it should break him. I think Maedhros must have tried to explain his actions to Elrond while raising him, so Elrond really knows how much an oath can cost.

Elrond's advice to Gimli is really a scene that's a bit understated by Tolkien. Robert Jordan would probably launch into a very long narration about the relationship between Elrond and Maedhros, with Elrond recalling Maedhros' sorrow and regret, etc, etc.....

Wonder how much longer LOTR would be if Jordan had written it?

Let me guess.... 7 or 8 books :lol:

[Captain Stern]

Very good point.

[The Black Lieutenant]

Yeah, if the original question was can there be such a thing as an individual Elf who is evil, the answer is yes. But if the question was is there a whole race of Elves that are evil in the way that the entire race of Orcs is evil, then the answer is no. Not even the Moriquendi, or Dark Elves, who inspired the Drow in AD&D, were evil in this way; they simply were called Dark Elves because they had not looked upon the Light of the Two Trees (or was it the Lamps?) in Valinor.

[easygreen]

That's a great point Easterlinge. Until you mentioned it I never made the connection. But you're right. It's wonderful how Tolkien layers in this stuff. Robert Jordan - I've only read one book - is much less interesting this way, since he doesn't any (or much) work for his readers to do.

[Inoldonil]

Yes, I am sure about Maedhros.

Trees, not Lamps, you had it right.

Infact the Sindar and Nandor are among the Moriquendi. The Moriquendi included the Umanyar (the Teleri who never made it to Aman) and the Avari (the Quendi who never took up the Great Journey). Everyone who didn't see the Light of the Two Trees. As such, Elwe alone among the Sindar is counted among the Calaquendi, the Quendi of the Light.

I never realized that bit about Elrond. How fascinating! It also foreshadows Gimli's sorrow in leaving Lothlorien and Galadriel. It was not the previously inexperienced night fall he needed to fear, but the sun rise.

[easygreen]

Hah, it's Maglor who wants to submit. I have the Sil. right in front of me, and anyway I have this exchange practically memorized.

"Yet Maglor still held back, saying: 'If Manwe and Varda themselves deny the fulfilmet of an oath to which we named them in witness, is it not made void?'" (313)

and a little later...

"'If none can release us,' said Maglor, 'then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot. whether we keep our outh or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking.' (314)


It is a little strange - and really very sad - that Maedhros, the wisest and most sympathetic of the sons of Feanor, in the end constrains his sole remaining brother to fulfil the horrible oath.

But its hard to feel too sorry for them. They have a choice - they can decide not to fulfil the oath. The fact that this exchange takes place at all shows that they have that option. And they reject it. Maedhros for fear of the Everlasting Darkness, and Maglor because he won't abandon his brother.

.

[easterlinge]

What's the worst that can happen if Maedhros and Maglor broke their Oath? What was the exact wording of Feanor's Oath?

What does it mean. "Everlasting Darkness"?

In some (most?) religions, an oath by God to do evil is automatically invalid, 'cos God won't accept it. By this principle, Feanor's Oath by Iluvatar would have been rendered null and void, the moment it led to evil actions.

[Inoldonil]

Yep, easygreen, easterlinge, you were right. :)

[easterlinge]

What I meant was, their Oath being made null and void, they no longer have to fulfill it. Or at least they can put off fulfilling it as long as no good way can be found, only foul means.

[afro-elf]

inoldonil says

. Many of the Northern Sindar in the First Age were actually in the service of Morgoth, and used by him as spies

where is this stated?

[Ñólendil]

War of the Jewels, I think, or Peoples of Middle-earth. HoMe books.

[afro-elf]

Thanks.

[Foul_Dwimmerlaik]

I'm not so sure that the sons of Feanor could have simply done a cost-benefit analysis, as it were, decided that the evil of abandoning their father's oath was less than the evil of fulfilling it, and been on their merry (or their pippin) way. I think Feanor's doom ran deeper than that.

[Wayfarer]

The 'doom' of feanor wasn't a -predestination, I don't think.

it was more along hte lines of 'if you persist in this, you will be in a hell of a lot of trouble'

Thus, they could have desisted and repented.

but they, so could sauron.

[Starr Polish]

Good point, Easterlinge, BUt you have to remember that different religions have different evils (ie Kosher food in the Jewish religion) and each religion is interpreted by the individual, thus they may have a different idea of evil.