orcs that climb walls?

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Are we going to have to forget that Jackson's orcs have the ability to scale walls when Gondor is attacked?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Numenorian fortress and tower walls are very smooth. Recall that the ents (in the book) could not bet a grip on the Orthanic Tower's stone.

[akutach]

Good question.
I would agree that PJ hasn't made any effort to draw a distinct evolutionary distinction in all the bad guys in the film.
Look in the TTT Illistrative companion (I got it for X-mas), and it explains that there is a difference between orcs and goblins.
In Moria, either Aragorn or Gandalf says, "There are worse things than goblins in Moria", and the troops of Mordor are orcs.
I don't recall any good close-ups in Moria, but the picture book makes it pretty clear that the goblins look different ( PJ says the goblins streaming along the walls were designed to look like roaches). I can't remember if they fought orcs or goblins in the room of Balin's tomb - Boromir says it after the two arrows hit the door and he says, " Great, ___, and they have a cave troll."

Maybe, knowing that the goblins are coming, the walls of Minas Tirith get a good fresh layer of white grease. And Sauron, knowing the walls will be greased, doesn't bother to send whimpy goblins and only sends orcs.

Who really knows?

[Amandil]

I do believe "goblins" and "orcs" refer to the same foul species. "Goblin" happens to be the English cognate, while "orc" (later amended to "ork") is a phonetic rendering of yrrch or some odd Middle-Earthen word. A distinction of kind is illicit. Notice that "Orcrist" translates as "Goblin-cleaver."

Course, we can't expect PJ to keep this straight. It's probably "necessary" for the movie blah blah blah.

[akutach]

The etymology is pretty well explained in the various C Tolkien edited (and extensively appended) compilations of his dad's works, and I'd agree they should be more or less the same. As for what PJ has done, it is clear that goblins are wall scurrying underground creatures (even pointing out that their eyes are big as an adaptation to underground life), and orcs are suited to life above ground.

I'm just saying that is how the people in the movie production put it.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

My fear is that the climbing orc was the brainchild of a special effects guy at a computer, who then bounced the idea off the continuity guy (no doubt the same fellow that ok'd the wraith bon-fire on weathertop) and just like we must forget that little incident on the mount when they reappear the next day, we are going to see orcs kept at bay by the 7 walls of Minas Tirith in the next film.

[Nurvingiel]

Very good point squiteyedsoutherner! PJ does sometimes get confused about the book's contents. (Of course, so do I, but I'm not trying to make a movie...)

[akutach]

squinteye, I think you're mostly dead-on with that. The special effects section on the extended revealed a focus on filling in the depth of Moria and simultaneously evoking a negative crowd response to the orc/goblin horde - continuity be damned.

As for PJ's confusion, Nurvingiel, remember that large audience appeal drives the endeavor (money). PJ is forced to deal in a bit of non-sensible flash to pay the bills. They didn't know that the first film was going to turn a profit for all three so they had to hedge their bets on wowing a lot of people who comb things over with a toothless comb, and demand a story to fall into their laps. Perhaps he is a sellout to a limited degree, but I'm sure he's fought many battles to stay true to the story where others have wished he'd go astray.

[WallRocker]

Speaking as an experinced Rock Climber(hence my name), I would have to say that Moria's pillars would be a much easier wall to scale then Helms Deep(I'm assuming that's what you meant when you said Gondor). Helm's Deep's walls would be possible to scale, but you would probably have to climb them with shoes and chalk. Also, the Uruk-Hai that attacked Helm's Deep are diffrent then the Orcs in Moria.

[Ërendil]

I agree - the Uruk's were for fighting not climbing and the moria orcs are of different build to the uruks. They have longer arms and longer fingers that would have been better suited for climbing. (Well, that is according to the movie guide I have)

[squinteyedsoutherner]

which would beg the question: why attack a walled fortress with just Uruks when you have lots of "regular" orcs at home, cutting down trees, that could have scaled the walls. Also, orcs are orcs. Tolkien clearly intended the Uruk-hai to be something larger, but the Moria orc is just an orc. It is also exactly the same in appearance to the ones that attack Isildur in the prologue.

As for rock climbing, I don't get the impression from watching that Moria scene that "rock climbing" is what they were presenting. Those orcs are coming out of the ceiling upside down like insects, and I believe it was the "bug like agility" they were trying to show.

Lastly, I was refering to the upcoming RoTK battle which clearly has regular orcs attacking the walled city of Minas Tirith.

[akutach]

I didn't realize this thread would (could) go on so long.

This probably will not close the issue, but here at least is the written word from the 'TTT Creatures' book.

Goblins: "Goblins" is a name used by peoples of Middle-earth to describe Orcs, and is particularly applicable to the Moria Orcs. They have evolved differently from those that live above ground, remaining short and developing larger eyes to enable them to see in the dark. They wear spiky, jagged armor to help grip the rock when climbing the subterranean structures.

"The issue was making it feel as if the Orcs had built their armor and weapons. We were fortunate that we could arlways go back to the bible, the written word of Tolkien, who went to great lengths to describe this world."
-Richard Taylor

Perhaps Mordor orcs are too proud to don the wall-climbing garb of their puny bug-eyed Moria kin!?!?!
The movie is what it is, and questioning the logic of the movie continuity is pretty much pointless unless PJ puts in his two cents.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Thanks for that post, I am always interested in Jackson's Middle Earth.

Orc "evolution"? in just hundreds of years?

"remaining short"? as opposed to whom that got large in the past few hundred years?

"armor to help grip rock when climbing"? armor is generally rather heavy.

"they were spikey jagged armor to help grip rock when climbing"? upon dwarf hewn rock? Are these not the fellows who make doors with no visible seams?

"Tolkien went to great lengths to describe this world" which would explain why you changed it?"

I smell @$$ coverage.

[ThorinOakenshield]

Orcs and goblins are one and the same in the world of Middle-Earth. Bottom line. Also, pillar/wall scaling orcs/goblins are merely a result of special effects people wishing to "hollywoodize" the movies for max effect. Whether Saruman's Uruk-hai, or those Orcs serving Sauron, Orcs/Goblins CANNOT climb/scale/whatever walls, neither in Moria or at Helm's deep. It's that simple. *ThorinOakenshield*

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
My fear is that the climbing orc was the brainchild of a special effects guy at a computer, who then bounced the idea off the continuity guy (no doubt the same fellow that ok'd the wraith bon-fire on weathertop) and just like we must forget that little incident on the mount when they reappear the next day, we are going to see orcs kept at bay by the 7 walls of Minas Tirith in the next film.
You are probably correct. They should've hired a better team of researchers before introducing such an "innovation". Indeed, Tolkien only made a major distinction between uruk-hai and regular orcs (which I believe were the goblins in the hobbit) if I remember correctly.

I can't wait 'til the next showing to see if these will be addressed or how it will be explained if it isn't.

Part of the fun is finding out creative ways of explaining the ramifications of these liberties now that 2 movies are out. They do make great conversation pieces.

[Gerbil]

Yawn........

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=137174&highlight=moria+climbing+orcs#post137174

Look at the date ;)

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I realize this was brought up once before, but I don't recall any discussion on the continuity of the change. Also, that thread got very heated.

I, for one, did learn something too (thanks to the TTT creature book post). That is: the studio is now aware of the problem and has (in my opinion) "thought up" an explanation. The fact that this explanation was given in a book for the second film, and not the first, leads me to believe that it was brought to their attention, and not something they planned. It also leads me to believe that yes, orcs will be held back by walls in the final film. Why else invent this change and include it in the TTT creature book?. Also, the explanation is laughable.

My favourite part of the explanation I forgot to include above was "larger eyes to see in the dark" The freakin' things only come out if it's dark!

Another stupid change.

[Kalimac]

Hmmm. There are three types of Orc . . as mentioned above . . the Moria orc, which are smaller, larger eyes, have adapted to living underground, and can scale walls with special equipment . . pretty handy if you live in a big mine. Than there are the Mordor orcs, who serve Sauron . . and the Uruk-hai that serve Saruman.

What was the problem, again? Oh, that orcs can scale the walls . . sure, why not? (And, gerbil . . elves can apparantly run up ropes . . walk on top of snow . . and leap onto the backs of horses backwards . . ummmmm . . don't see the problem with orcs (corrupted elves) being able to have some 'special' abilities too . . :p )

We won't know if Jackson will call upon the Moria orcs to assist in the assault on Minas Tirith though, until Return of the King.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Gerbil
Yawn........

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=137174&highlight=moria+climbing+orcs#post137174


Aaaaahhhhh!! Not *that* thread again!

[akutach]

Another funny one about accelerated Middle-earth evolution. I caught the tail end of the animated Return of the King, and heard Gandalf explain that it was important for the Hobbits to maintain a thorough historical account because they are getting bigger. He used as evidence that Sam is taller than Frodo, Merry bigger than Sam, and Pippin bigger than Merry to conclude that eventually hobbits would be as big as humans and integrate into human society. They would supposedly need the written history as a focus for cultural identity.

Shock was followed by hysterical laughter!

I take it everyone thinks Tolkien was a staunch advocate of Lamarkian inheritence or perhaps he was an avid gardener who often made viable hybrids - an homage of sorts that keeps appearing in film adaptations.

[Nurvingiel]

More than likely, PJ will just smooth over it and not say anything. It will live on as a slight fudge and never be justified. But I could be wrong, I hope I am. ^_^