Are they human?

[diannah]

What I'm curious about (and I've gotten some different views on this) is if Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, Ents, Wizards and Orcs are all different strands of humans or if they're different species entirely,
also if distantly, if not directly related?

[Artanis]

Elves, Dwarves, Ents and Wizards are not human. The Wizards are Maiar, angelic spirits that were sent to Middle-Earth to assist the peoples there in the war against Sauron (Sauron is btw a Maia himself). The Dwarves were created by Aule, one of the Valar, the Powers of the World. Elves and Men were created by Eru, The One, who also created the Valar and the Maiar.

I don't know the origin of the Ents.

The Orcs were breeded by Melkor in mockery of Elves and Men, and are supposed to be a twisted breed of both, I believe.

Hobbits are related to Men way back in history, but we don't know in what way (or I don't know :) )

Hope this helps :)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The Ents were born from the vision of Yavanna to protect the kelvar (plants), I believe.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Elves and Men were identical in physical body except for the Elves being much fairer, and their bodies were more durable to wounds and pain, but they could not survive violent assaults upon their structures.

The greatest difference between Elves and Men was their spirits, and that Men were not bound to the world.

[WallRocker]

Dwarves were created by Aule.

Elves are the First Born, the vision of Illuvatar.

Ents were awakened at the same time as the Elves, but I don't know who created them.

Orcs were once Elves, captured by Melkor(Morgoth), and made into Orcs. Melkor could not create, he could only mock things that had already be created.

Wizards are members of the Istari, sent by the Valar to ME during the Third age to help in the war against Saroun. They took the form of grown humans. For more on the Istari, read the essay in 'Unfinshed tales'(just got that for Christmas:D )

[Radagast The Brown]

I think that the ents were born by Manwe to protect the woods. Yavanna asked for Manwe's help and that's what he did.

originally posted by WallRocker
Orcs were once ElvesOr men, as Artanis said in the beginning.

[Ñólendil]

It all depends on your definition of "human", I think. If by "human", you mean "Mannish", of-the-race-of-Men, the answer is certainly "no". But in a way, Elves, and Dwarves, and Orcs, and the five Wizards sent to Middle-earth in the Second and Third Ages, were "humane" -- biologically very similar to us, and to eachother, and actually as SGH pointed out, the Elves were biologically the same as we are.

[WallRocker]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Or men, as Artanis said in the beginning.

True.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by WallRocker
Melkor could not create, he could only mock things that had already be created. If Melkor could not create anything, how could Aule create Dwarves? Melkor and Aule were both Valar, right? So how could one have the power to create and one not?:confused:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

When Aule created the Dwarves, at first they were just puppets, responding to his commands. Iluvatar gave them life, after Aule offered to destroy his creation in obedience to Him.

[Shadowfax]

Oh. Thanks for clearing that up for me!:)

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
When Aule created the Dwarves, at first they were just puppets, responding to his commands. Iluvatar gave them life, after Aule offered to destroy his creation in obedience to Him.

Melkor couldn't create from scratch himself because of his hatred and loathing for all Eru made because he mocked it all. Orcs were twisted versions of Orcs, Goblins were twisted versions of Men I believe. But I don't think he was inhibited because he was just a Valar. Just because of his inner-darkness. I think the dwarves could think for themselves from the the begginning because they cowered when Aule was going to kill them. I think that was before Illuvatar's doing. Now whether they just had the potential or they were full-filling it I don't know.

[durin's bane]

Hobbits and Men are both human. And I think Orcs are half n' half. Elves are sort of like humans, but they are far more superior to mortals. Dwarves were created by a member of the Valar, I think, along with Elves. And the Ents are not human at all, and were created along with Elves. But that's all I know.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Orcs and Goblins were the same thing.

Elves were created by Iluvatar, Dwarves by Aule, and Ents by Yavanna.

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

I beg to differ Gwaimir. Why else would they have to cross orcs and goblins if they were the same thing?

[markedel]

The word and goblin are used interchangeably. I believe there is a not on it in the beginning of Lord of the Rings.

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

Yeah so is warg and wolf but there are some differences between the two.

[ArwenEvenstar]

In the Hobbit Prof.JRRT uses goblins and in LOTR he uses orcs but I'm pretty sure that they're the same thing.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Hobbit was written as a children's story, and "goblin" is a word that children have always been familiar with. The Lord of the Rings is an adult fantasy, and although the word "goblin" may appear in it sporadically, the word "Orc" became the more used term, and the overall replacement for "goblin." They are the same thing in Tolkien's mythology.

As for wolves and wargs, it is my understanding that the only difference between these two are that one was bred to ride.

[durin's bane]

Orcs and Goblins are the same thing, only since The Hobbit was aimed younger audiances, the word Goblin would be easier to understand. For Wargs and Wolves, I'm not sure. I used to think they were different, with Wargs being bigger and being able to talk and stuff, like a super-wolf.

[azalea]

In The Hobbit, he calls Wargs "the evil wolves over the Edge of the Wild." Gandalf describes the goblins riding on WOLVES into the Battle of Five Armies "and Wargs are in their train." So I think that Wargs were like the great evil race of wolves (which is very Tolkien-like -- it makes sense that he would have a special genealogical line for these characters as he did many others). Also, when he tells how Gandalf can understand their language, I think it might just mean he knew "wolf," but that could be open for debate (was their language just a form of wolf, or was it actually a crude spoken language -- it does say they helped the orcs out frequently. Maybe they could actually communicate? It's fun to speculate).

As for goblins v. orcs, clearly they are the same "race" but I think a case could be made for there being a slight distinction. I can't find it, but in The Hobbit there is a line that says basically "their larger cousins the great orcs of the North" or something to that effect, refering to the goblins. I'm not disagreeing about the different names used for different purposes (goblin being recognizable to children), but I think we can imagine that refering to goblins could have been a vernacular for the Misty Mt. orcs in particular. That could be a literary way of justifying the difference. So it is correct to say they're the same, but it could be that while all goblins are orcs, not all orcs are goblins. Again, it's fun to speculate.:)

[Baby-K]

I believe Azalea is right Orcs & Goblins are basically the same race, however the Orcs evolved from Goblins & were larger, faster & more cunning than the original goblins. I am almost certain there is reference to this in The Hobbit (the evolution of the Orcs) but I'll have to check again - will get back to you (unless someone beats me to it).

[Gwaimir Windgem]

GamgeeGurl: He actually said crossing orcs with 'goblin-men'. But anyway, that was just in the movie; I don't believe Tolkien ever said orcs were crossed with goblin-men to make Uruks, did he?

I think that the Wargs are very different from wolves. Wargs are a kind of intelligent, more powerful, I suppose in a way perhaps 'demonic' large wolf.

Didn't they have a kind of a council with the goblins?

Actually, I'm almost certain that it was 'hobgoblins' from the North, rather than orcs. But anyway, I believe that Tolkien said in his letters that Orcs and Goblins were the same, just two different words for them.

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

Alright! Alright! I admit it! Perhaps goblins and orcs are the same things. But I still doubt it...How would Saruman have made Uruk-Hai then? They do speculate that they might have just been tortured wildmen but I doubt it because by then the wildmen of Dunland and Isengard were in alliance. But then again all through Tolkien's works there are usually several different terms for races people, etc.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I fail to see how orcs and goblins being the same thing makes Uruk-hai (originally bred by Sauron, I believe, not Saruman) impossible.

I think the word you want is 'Hill-men' or something like that. Wild Men I believe refers to Woses.

[LeniFreak]

I, too, fail to see the connection between the synonymousness (not a word, I know) of "orc" and "goblin" and the creation of Uruk-hai.
I have to agree about the Wargs, as well. They seemed to me like sort of intelligent, "demon wolves" as opposed to just any old wolf hanging out in the right place at the right time.

[Baby-K]

Couldn't find the part I was thinking of - seems my memory is getting more & more like a sift everyday

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by LeniFreak
I, too, fail to see the connection between the synonymousness (not a word, I know) of "orc" and "goblin" and the creation of Uruk-hai.
I have to agree about the Wargs, as well. They seemed to me like sort of intelligent, "demon wolves" as opposed to just any old wolf hanging out in the right place at the right time.

Obiviously a very intelligent person! ;)

According to dictionary.com, the word you want is 'synonymity'. :)

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

Interesting...Perhaps then orcs and goblins are different. Think about The Hobbit. At that time all the orcs were in Mordor, I believe. So why would they find some in the Misty Mountains then? Unless they were just some scattered ones, that could factor in I suppose.

[Fanëar]

What are ents? and how did orcs and hose wierdlittle green thins come about?

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

Ents are the tree-herders that were the thought of Yavanna that Eru made into reality to watch over her beloved forests. They are sort of counterparts to the great eagles because they both were animal/plant spirits sent to watch over MD on the land and in the sky. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Gamigar]

As to the comment about all of them being related, I know for a fact that Dwarves are not related to the rest. One of the Valar made them when he was waiting for the Elves to come to Middle Earth.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yup, yup, yup! :D And the Ents, too, of course. But I would only really classify the Men and Hobbits as human.

[Fat middle]

Uruk-Hai is another word for orc but in Black speech: uruk stands for orc, and hai for people. so uruk-hai is orc-people.

i think that goblins, orcs, and uruks are all the same race (generically called "orcs"), but there are different breeds of orcs. the hobbits, which wrote The Red Book of Westmarch name each breed with the name with what they originally "meet them". Bilbo knew the shorter breed and named them goblins, perhaps because hobbit ancient history, long time told fireside to the hobbit childs spoke of the war that hobbits faught against goblins.

when hobbits enter in the "great history" of ME, Frodo and his companions get to know greater orcs, and they apply them the name they "orcs" as they hear to elves and men. however sometimes the use the term goblin to design those of the mountain breed that Bilbo met.

finally, when Pip and Merry hear the dicussion of their captors, learn the words uruk-hai and apply (erroneusly) to the new larger breed.