Middle-Earth, Numenor, and Valinor

[Lord Xanthyz]

Where are they in relativity to each other?

Is there a map that shows this?

I am currently on Ch. 18 in The Silmarillion, will I eventually read the answer to my question?
If not, what book, if any, has this info?

Thank you.

[Inoldonil]

Tolkien never made a map of Valinor, he made one map of Numenore and many of 'Middle-earth' (just the Northwest), but not one with them all together.

The Silmarillion I think is supposed to give you the information. Middle-earth refers in the First and Second Ages to all lands exclusive of Numenore and the lands west of this.

In the First Age and in the Second Age before the Akallabeth ('Downfall [of Numenore]') Arda, the Realm or World, was flat. In the extreme west of this Realm was a massive 'continent' from the North into the South. The lands to the South on this continent were called Avathar, they are south of the great Pelori, the mightiest mountains that have ever been. It was in this land that Morgoth found Ungoliant. Mostly a cold place.

North of this in the center was the land commonly called Valinor, The Land of the Valar, also known as Aman, the Blessed. This is where all the Ainur (Valar and Maiar) live. This is the land fenced by the Pelori, the tallest mountain of this range was the Taniquetil, where Manwe sits.

North of Valinor is Araman, a cold empty place. But north of this it becomes much colder, where the broken land stretches across in the North from the West to east and comes at last to Middle-earth. This is the Helcaraxe, the Grinding Ice. Following this for a very great amount of distance one comes to Middle-earth and staying on the coast eventually you come to the Firth of Drengist (it is on the Silmarillion maps). Without crossing the perilous ice, however, the seas are extremely wide.

Off the coast of Valinor in the Bay of Eldamar was Tol Eressea, where the Teleri had once dwelt. It was long considered wholly separate from Valinor, and indeed when the Teleri removed to Alqualonde on the Bay, north of the Calacirya, none dwelt there. But in later ages the returning Elves lived there, where they established Avallone.

It was this Avallone on the Isle of Eressea that the far sighted among the Numenoreans in the Second Age glimpsed. Andor, the Land of Gift where the realm of Numenore was founded, was in the Great Sea of Belegaer, the great mass of water between Middle-earth and the lands in the West. It was a bit closer to Eressea and Valinor, however.

It is important to remember that in the Third Age, which was after the world was made round and Numenore sank beneath the Wave, Tol Eressea and Valinor were both considered to be parts of Aman. But they were removed from the Circles of the World.

A map of Numenore can be found in Unfinished Tales. Others here I am sure can direct you to a world map in the Elder Days or in the Second Age, but inevitably features are hypothetical.

The Akallabeth will probably give you an idea of where Numenore is, but otherwise I should just say it is easy to get lost among names as that is what happened.

[Lord Xanthyz]

Also some big bay was formed after some mountains were destroyed in Beleriand correct? (all the names have left my memory for the moment).

So then looking at a map of Beleriand in The Silmarillion then comparing it to where Beleriand should be in one of the maps in Lord of the Rings, there is a bay that wasn't there during the First Age.

[Lord Xanthyz]

I drew a quick little pic, check it to see if I have it right. =)

www.geocities.com/aasuperkd/Arda.gif (http://www.geocities.com/aasuperkd/Arda.gif)

[anduin]

I don't think you can use GeoCities for remote hosting (is that the right word?)

[Inoldonil]

Yeah, your page is not available.

Also some big bay was formed after some mountains were destroyed in Beleriand correct? (all the names have left my memory for the moment).
Well, when Beleriand was destroyed the middle of the Ered Lindon (Luin) was washed out, forming a great bay. This was where Nogrod and Belegost were. Because the river Lhun flowed into it, it was afterwards called the Gulf of Lhun. Perhaps this is what you are thinking of. There was not much left of the lands west of the Blue Mountains, save a few scattered heights that naturally became islands (the Hill of Himring for one), and a part of Ossiriand that was called by some Lindon, this name it retained in the Second and Third Ages.

So then looking at a map of Beleriand in The Silmarillion then comparing it to where Beleriand should be in one of the maps in Lord of the Rings, there is a bay that wasn't there during the First Age.
The Gulf of Lhun, then? Where Mithlond (Grey Havens), Forlond and Harlond were?

[Lord Xanthyz]

Yeah thats what it was called...The confusing part to me when I first picked up The Silmarillion after reading The Hobbit and the LoTR trilogy was when I looked at the map in The Silmarillion and tried to find out where that was on the bigger map in LoTR.

So after Beleriand was destroyed, and a portion of Ered Luin washed out, and the Gulf of Lhun was formed, the people of the region changed the names to Lindon, Forlindon, Harlindon, etc.

So pretty much, looking on a map in a LoTR book, the regions west of Ered Luin is where Beleriand was?

(Hopefully by now you can see I am very into the books and VERY eaer to understand them better :) )

[Lord Xanthyz]

Argh....lemme put it on my Angelfire site....

*kicks GeoCities in the shin*

[Lord Xanthyz]

This was where Nogrod and Belegost were.
...and a part of Ossiriand that was called by some Lindon...

Alright, now you said the area where Nogrod and Belegost were fell into the sea, but Ossiriand remained, and later gained the name Lindon....but checking my map, it seems that if Nogrod and Belegost slid into the ocean, then why didn't Ossiriand? Or did parts or Ossiriand go? Or did only the region NEAR Nogrod and Ossiriand?

[Lord Xanthyz]

This link will take you to my picture (http://www.angelfire.com/home/lordxanthyz/Arda.gif)

[Inoldonil]

It seems as though the system is screwing up on me, with my HTML. Hopefully this gets through:


I kind of misled you about Lindon. Ossiriand in the First Age was called both Lindon and Ossiriand, but Ossiriand was used more because it was Sindarin. In the Second and Third Ages it was only called Lindon.

Most of the land you see West of the Blue Mountains in the Lord of the Rings was Lindon, the parts that did not sink in the Drowning. So yes, parts of Lindon sank, including the parts that fell under the Gulf of Lhun.

So pretty much, looking on a map in a LoTR book, the regions west of Ered Luin is where Beleriand was

Yes, you've got it. Some of ancient Beleriand as I said is still there, scattered islands, and parts of Ossiriand (and the lands that were to the North of that in the First Age)
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
Your map is good. Leaving Numenore and Valinor where it is, and pushing Middle-earth back even further would give you an idea of the distance.

[Lord Xanthyz]

Well of course you'd have to push ME back a bit:)
Thats why i wrote "Great Distance" underneath Helcaraxe...

Like my Balrog??;)

[Inoldonil]

I especially enjoyed the Balrog :)

But you have a great distance in there already, and Elenna (on which Numenore was founded) you have at about the right distance from Aman. So I figure you could actually have a more or less accurate distance representation by pushing Middle-earth back a bit. That's what I meant.

[Lord Xanthyz]

Okay:)
I understand what you meant now...