The Silmarillion: Ch.1 Of the beginning of days

[Artanis]

Time is up to discuss Quenta Silmarillion Chapter 1: Of the beginning of days This chapter tells the history about the rulers of the Earth and their shaping of the Earth in the beginning of days, and their war against Melkor. There is also section dealing with the gift from Iluvatar to Men.

Other useful reading would be:
HoME4 The Shaping of Middle-Earth:
Ch.V Ambarkanta (there are maps here, unfortunately I don't have access to a scanner now, perhaps somone else could scan them?)
Ch.VI The earliest annals of Valinor, up to V.Y.2000, with notes and commentaries

HoME5 The Lost Road:
Ch.II The later annals of Valinor, up to V.Y.1980, with notes and commentaries.
Ch.VI Quenta Silmarillion part 2: Of Valinor and the two trees

HoME10 Morgoth's Ring:
Part 2: The Annals of Aman, up to year 1050.
Part 3: The later Quenta Silmarillion, the first phase, ch.2: Of Valinor and the two trees
Part 5: Myths transformed

Pictures worth looking at (all from Rolozo Tolkien):
Ted Nasmith: The Sea (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/sil-sea.jpg)
Ted Nasmith: The Light of Valinor on the Western Sea (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/sil-light.jpg)
Ted Nasmith: The first dawn of the sun (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/sil-firstday.jpg)
Ted Nasmith: The lamp of the Valar (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/sil-lampofvalar.jpg)

[Artanis]

There should be some interesting topics to discuss here.

1. I do not quite understand why Melkor could withstand all the rest of the Valar in the First War, before the coming of Tulkas. Melkor was the mightiest among them, but Manwe was mighty also, and the allied forces of the Valar and their supporting spirits should have conquered Melkor. Why would Tulkas make such a difference, even if he was a great warrior?

2. When Yavanna made the two trees in Valinor, what was her motive? The marring of Arda had taken place. Did the Valar wish to preserve what had been, not wanting the foretold history to proceed? Was this a sign of weakness on their part?

From Myths transformed:
Now one of the objects of the Trees was the healing of the hurts of Melkor, but this could easily have a selfish aspect: The staying of history, not oing on with the Tale. This effect it had on the Valar. They became more and more enamoured of Valinor, and went there more often and stayed there longer. Middle-Earth was left oo little tended, and too little protected against Melkor.

3. Why wouldn't the Valar go to war against Melkor from Valinor? Yavanna was the only one to urge them to war. Had the valar become too comfortable in the light of the trees and their bliss? Was Melkor really so strong, that they could not have him overthrown?

To be continued .... :)

[Artanis]

Continued:

4. It is said of the Valar that if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good, howsoever good the intent.Do we know any examples of this, when the intentions has been good?

5. Why do you think Melkor has ever feared Men?

[Falagar]

5. Why do you think Melkor has ever feared Men?
There were many of them, and if all of them joined the fight against him, Melkor would have had some serious trouble. But fortunately for him some/most of them entered his service.
And men would never fade, nor leave ME for Valinor.

[Khamûl]

I think maybe Melkor feared Men because it seems that they were the ones most like him. Maybe he was afraid of what they might be capable of if they worked together. Imagine if he hadn't been chained and the Numenoreans hadn't been corrupted. They probably would have been able to wreak havoc on him, since they were prepared to assail the Valar in Valinor.

Tulkas was the mightiest in strength and deeds, so he was able to take care of Melkor. I think what kept him from being one of the greatest was his lack of interest. For some reason, I think of him like Tom Bombadil -- mighty, but unconcerned. I'm not quite sure why I think of him that way.

[Earniel]

*mumbles to herself: for once I'm not the last to come running ;) *

1. I do not quite understand why Melkor could withstand all the rest of the Valar in the First War, before the coming of Tulkas. Melkor was the mightiest among them, but Manwe was mighty also, and the allied forces of the Valar and their supporting spirits should have conquered Melkor. Why would Tulkas make such a difference, even if he was a great warrior? The rest of the Valar wanted to keep the lands around them unharmed, it's not easy fighting when you constantly have to worry that you don't destroy things around you overmuch. Manwë had great power but it was not in fighting and physical feats. Fighting was more up Tulkas' alley. Perhaps the greatest difference was that Tulkas liked fighting.

2. When Yavanna made the two trees in Valinor, what was her motive? The marring of Arda had taken place. Did the Valar wish to preserve what had been, not wanting the foretold history to proceed? Was this a sign of weakness on their part? I think she made the trees primarily to replace the two Lamps that Morgoth destroyed. In a way the Valar did turn Valinor into a memory of what could have been but I think they did so because they knew that in Middle earth itself they could not defeat Morgoth without destroying too much. So they retreated into Valinor: And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.

3. Why wouldn't the Valar go to war against Melkor from Valinor? Yavanna was the only one to urge them to war. Had the valar become too comfortable in the light of the trees and their bliss? Was Melkor really so strong, that they could not have him overthrown? I think a little of both. Valinor was beautiful and free from Morgoth's shadow. I can imagine the Valar didn't really want to leave that little eden. Though some Valar such as Yavanna, Manwë, Ulmo and Oromë never forgot the rest of the world I guess they just weren't up to defeating Morgoth without destroying even more of their labour.

Do we know any examples of this, when the intentions has been good? How about Feänor's banishment? The Valar banished him in the hope he would repent his deeds and at the end of his banishment would return to them without his former bitterness. But in reality it made Feänor believe even more in Morgoth's lies which eventually resulted in the departure of the Noldor.

5. Why do you think Melkor has ever feared Men No not really, maybe only in the beginning. But I think that near the end of his reign he found them easy to corrupt and rule them. Although a few men such as Húrin and Húor certainly must have frightened him.

[Elvet]

Regarding Tulkas: Khamul, I like your comment about Tom Bombadil. I think it is because of the references to Tulkas' laughter. Tulkas exhibits extremes of anger/force and laughter/joy. The rest of the Valar are more singular in nature. Manwe '..rules all to peace', he prefers the status quo. Tulkas is more resilient to the evil of Melkor. As Earniel said, he likes to fight. Can't you just see Tulkas roaring in laughter after a fight, either because of the joy of the confrontation, or its result. No wonder Melkor hated him.

About the 2 trees: Like Earniel said, I think that Yavanna wanted to replace the 2 lamps. But she improved them. Not only was the light remade, but the fluctuations of 'living light' gave rise to time.
As well, the light could be collected in vats in case the source was destroyed. The trees were also in the safest place, to protect them from destruction.

Regarding Valinor: I think it was important for the Valar to have a safe haven, away from the effects of Melkor. Melkor had tainted Arda and they couldn't build a retreat there. Too few Valar had first hand knowledge what was transpiring in Arda. And I also think that they were afraid to cause more damage to the lands.

About the counselling of the Valar: I'm a bit rusty, but didn't Ulmo or Osse give assistance to the elves via the rivers? I'm sure someone will find the example.

Why does Melkor fear men? I think Melkor sees them not only as a foe, but as a rival. Men can crave power and they can be corrupted. They can aspire and be driven to achieve great things. They are somewhat unpredictable, their nature is not as cut and dried as the elves. Melkor's greatest evil is the tainting of the gift of mortality. Because of that, men will forever see death with a negative connotation.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think too that as long as there was an alliance between Elves and Men that Morgoth had even a greater fear. The Sil says something like: "To corrupt and destroy whatever arose new and fair was ever the chief design of Morgoth and to ever make Men the foes of the Eldar. This was never wholly achieved though." [Quote from memory] I find it interesting that that is exactly how he achieved his purpose with the Elves in Valinor before the Exile. You would have thought that someone would have realized what he was up to the second time.

I think his fear of Men though was from some uncertianty. He knew the Eldar, and he knew their ways. They were closer to the Valar in spirit than any other creatures. Men and their ways were more of a mystery, so more chancey for him to deal with them. It would be like approaching a pack of dogs and hope they don't go for your throat. But, I think his fear of Men was at its height while Men and Elves were allied.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I find it interesting that that is exactly how he achieved his purpose with the Elves in Valinor before the Exile. You would have thought that someone would have realized what he was up to the second time.

Actually, that has happened several times in our history too. We repeat the mistakes of the past, and then have only ourselves to blame for not reading :). And you know, Morgoth wasn't the sort of creature that dies, so he has time to try the same thing twice. In fencing, one can do a move, but although you don't repeat the same move instantly after, you still do use the same tactic later on. Especially if it works, to see if it will work again :D. And it usually does :D:D:D.

About Morgoth's fearing men, I've got another possibility to throw out. It could be simply because he doesn't understand Ilúvatar's purpose with men. Men came into the world, were there for a small amount of time, and then pass away. He doesn't know why they pass away, or what happens to them after death. Nor does he know for what purpose Ilúvatar has called them into being, and that worries him. The elves he has lived long with, and he understands his adversaries there. The Maiar and Valar likewise he can comprehend, but this is throwing a wrench into the works of a shape he can't get. And when one doesn't understand something, but knows that it is called into being by your enemy, one fears it.

[claudia silver]

5. Why do you think Melkor has ever feared Men?

There are some interesting passages in BoLT Part 2 relating to Tolkein's thoughts views on this subject.

"Melko did not fear Men" pg 218

and

"Melko...............can suggest evil to Men......." pg 282

and he states Melkor can easily use them to spread " hurt and damage and evil in the world."

[Khamûl]

Aren't Melko from the Book of Lost Tales and Melkor from the Silmarillion different people? Admittedly, I've never read the Book of Lost Tales, but for some reason I'm under this impression.

[cassiopeia]

I just brought the Silmarillion today and read this chapter, so I'm happy to discuss this. I havn't read the Sil for a while, so please bear with me. :)

2. When Yavanna made the two trees in Valinor, what was her motive? The marring of Arda had taken place. Did the Valar wish to preserve what had been, not wanting the foretold history to proceed? Was this a sign of weakness on their part?

As someone said, I believe her motive was to replace the broken lamps. Perhaps she thought Arda was already too marred to be fixed, so she wanted to start again in Valinor.

5. Why do you think Melkor has ever feared Men?
It says in this chapter that Elves felt that men were most like Melkor. Melkor knew the type of destruction he could reap, so perhaps he thought men could achieve that type of destruction as well and it scared him.

4. It is said of the Valar that
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good, howsoever good the intent.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do we know any examples of this, when the intentions has been good?

My memory is a bit dodgy on this, but Ulmo asked (forced?) Tuor to go to Gondolin to warn Turgon of Morgoth. Well, Gondolin was destroyed, so this did not turn out good, but the intent was good on Ulmo's part.

Aren't Melko from the Book of Lost Tales and Melkor from the Silmarillion different people? Admittedly, I've never read the Book of Lost Tales, but for some reason I'm under this impression.

I thought Melkor and Melko were intended to be the same, but Tolkien changed his mind about the name and decided Melkor was better than Melko.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Khamûl
Aren't Melko from the Book of Lost Tales and Melkor from the Silmarillion different people?

No. They're both the same character. Melkor is just a more developed one.

[claudia silver]

Originally posted by Kham

Aren't Melko from the Book of Lost Tales and Melkor from the Silmarillion different people?

Sorry for the confusion, I should have made it clear that Melko and Melkor are one and the same.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Khamûl
Aren't Melko from the Book of Lost Tales and Melkor from the Silmarillion different people? Admittedly, I've never read the Book of Lost Tales, but for some reason I'm under this impression. They are the same Khamul, but BoLT is an older mythology that Tolkien eventually abandon and began again with the mythology that we know as the Silmarillion and LotRs.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Elvet
Why does Melkor fear men? I think Melkor sees them not only as a foe, but as a rival. Men can crave power and they can be corrupted. They can aspire and be driven to achieve great things. They are somewhat unpredictable, their nature is not as cut and dried as the elves.They are also not bound by fate, but were given ability to ...shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.The last sentence is significant, I think. Here Men could be seen as the ones that will heal the world, or save it from evil, if you wish. Reason good enough for Melkor to fear them.

Melkor's greatest evil is the tainting of the gift of mortality.Agree. Death was supposed to be a blessing, to be free from the sorrows of the world:Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.The curse of the Elves is their memory. They remember the bliss they once had, and they know what could have been but are now lost. No wonder they're sad. The Valar too have seen Arda in its spring, before it was tainted. They must be grieved indeed to see what the world has come to.

[Artanis]

About Telperion and Laurelin, the two trees: Yavanna did not make them all by herself, Nienna should get a bit of the honour as well, as she watered the mould with her tears. I like to think that her sorrow contributed greatly to the beauty of those trees.

[markedel]

Isn't the point the Morgoth used Arda-it was "Morgoth's Ring" making assaults on him dangerous to Middle Earth-but actaully weakening Morgoth to the point where Sauron could be more powerful than Morgoth. This isn't stated explicitly in the Silmarillion, but it was on Tolkien's mind in his old age, and shapes the reactions of the Valar.

[Khamûl]

Thanks to everyone for the clarification.

[Artanis]

Hey, where is everybody? :confused: We haven't finished this yet, you know.

In Morgoth's Ring it is said that Melkor/Morgoth put forth his power into the physical Earth, and thus marred it, but by that deed his spirit was greatly diminished, and he became bound to his physical shape. Now the Valar also used their power to create things: Varda made the stars, Yavanna made the Two Trees and all that grows in Middle-Earth, Aule wrought the lamps and so on, and all the Valar laboured to shape the Earth. Wouldn't this imply that the spirits of the Valar also would diminish? What do you think?

[markedel]

The point being that Morgoth couldn't create, he eventually devolved into Nihlism. It wasn't the creation, it was the evil.

[Earniel]

I sadly enough haven't read Morgoth's Ring yet. Artanis, can you tell me why Morgoth put his power into the physical earth?

Well, this is my last post this year. I'm off to celebrate. See you next year!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
Hey, where is everybody? :confused: We haven't finished this yet, you know.



Hi everyone - I'm over visiting my husband's family for the holidays and can't get on the computer more than a minute or two - I'll be sure to catch up when I get back on Friday :)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by markedel
The point being that Morgoth couldn't create, he eventually devolved into Nihlism. It wasn't the creation, it was the evil. I'm sorry, it's New Year's Day and I may be terribly slow today. :) But I don't understand. I'm aware that Morgoth could not create, and that his uttermost desire was destruction. Still he did put most of his power of being into Arda. He became dispersed, in an irreversable process.

The Valar also spent their power, but their goal was (sub)creation. I believe Yavanna gave away a part of herself when she created the Two Trees. When those trees were destroyed, she could not make them anew. What the Valar achieved, they achieved only once.

[azalea]

Also, perhaps it's because the Valar made those things for the good of all out of love (?), but Melkor did it for himself only, with domination and destruction of others and their works being his goal, and this was done out of hatred.

[Earniel]

I also think that since Morgoth knew a fear unlike the other Valar did. He feared not losing something but feared himself being hurt or captured. That's why he hid in dark forts and ran so often. Maybe this fear made him pour more of himself in his creations than the other Valar did.

[Rían]

Hooray, I'm back home! *gets cup of hot cider and settles down to read the thread*

[Rían]

1. I do not quite understand why Melkor could withstand all the rest of the Valar in the First War, before the coming of Tulkas. Melkor was the mightiest among them, but Manwe was mighty also, and the allied forces of the Valar and their supporting spirits should have conquered Melkor. Why would Tulkas make such a difference, even if he was a great warrior?

Yes, I wondered about that, too - I think, at the very first, part of it might be sheer surprise and doubt - after all, Melkor had been great and beautiful and "one of them". It might be hard for them to realize that he had really and fully committed to his rebellion and evil ways. Manwë was his brother - can you image how hard it was at first to fight against him, when you are hoping against hope that he'll turn from his evil ways? He must have felt tremendous sorrow. Tulkas seemed to make a difference because his "gift" was fighting (for the right!) - the others had to "learn" it, maybe. Also, as someone pointed out, the other Valar were trying to not destroy Arda in the fighting process.

2. When Yavanna made the two trees in Valinor, what was her motive? The marring of Arda had taken place. Did the Valar wish to preserve what had been, not wanting the foretold history to proceed? Was this a sign of weakness on their part?
I think she made the two trees for the same reason that Aulë made the two lamps - from the second paragraph - "there was need of light". Light is a good thing. However, the Valar did seem to have a bit of the "preservation" weakness of the Elves, too, and sometimes needed a "kick in the pants" to get going and fight Melkor some more.

[Rían]

Another interesting note about Tulkas - he was not one of the "original" Valar - but after rousting out Melkor, And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda...
Makes you wonder how word got to him in the first place. Did Tulkas watch what was going on in Arda and then offer to Ilúvatar to go and help? Did Manwë ask Ilúvatar for help, and Ilúvatar decided to ask Tulkas? I like how Tulkas decided to commit himself to Arda, though, and become one of the Valar.

[Rían]

I like this quote about Manwë: Manwë has no thought for his own honor, and is not jealous of his power, but rules all to peace.

Also, in the next sentence, The Vanyar he loved best of all the Elves, and of him they received song and poetry; for poetry is the delight of Manwë, and the song of words is his music.
The "song of words is his music" is interesting - it reminds me of Tolkien's comments on how the beauty of words affects him like music, or something along those lines.

(hmmm, 4 posts in a row for me - anyone else out there??)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Another interesting note about Tulkas - he was not one of the "original" Valar - but after rousting out Melkor,
Makes you wonder how word got to him in the first place. Did Tulkas watch what was going on in Arda and then offer to Ilúvatar to go and help? Did Manwë ask Ilúvatar for help, and Ilúvatar decided to ask Tulkas? I like how Tulkas decided to commit himself to Arda, though, and become one of the Valar. It must have been pretty boring being with Iluvatar for someone like him, don't you think? With his personality he would prefer the turmoils and fights in Arda. Perhaps he resembles Men in that way, who does seem do need something to fight for in their lives, or doesn't seem to be content with peace and happy days over a long period.
The "song of words is his music" is interesting - it reminds me of Tolkien's comments on how the beauty of words affects him like music, or something along those lines.Yes, interesting. Looks like Manwe resembles Tolkien most of all. :)

Also RÃ*an, I agree with you that the Valar also had a bit of the 'preservation' weakness. The Valar were not perfect, and they also could make wrong judgements. Their original intent with making the two trees no doubt were good: To replace the light of the lamps and keep it away from Melkor, but I do think the gross of them became enamoured with the bliss they experienced, and more or less chose to forget their original task, to care for all of Arda.

[Dunadan]

Hello everyone.

Originally posted by Artanis
There should be some interesting topics to discuss here.

1. I do not quite understand why Melkor could withstand all the rest of the Valar in the First War, before the coming of Tulkas. Melkor was the mightiest among them, but Manwe was mighty also, and the allied forces of the Valar and their supporting spirits should have conquered Melkor. Why would Tulkas make such a difference, even if he was a great warrior?


I had thought this was because Melkor had made warfare and domination his "specialisms", so to speak. By their nature, most of the Valar would find it very difficult to figure out how to overthrow one of their kin, never mind put it into practice. Tulkas was the man for the job.

This point illustrates, I think, that Tolkien's conception of "power" in ME is rather different from how power is usually depicted in this genre. It's not about casting spells or psychic powers. Often, power is expressed metaphorically with reference to the essence of a particular character. An example could Tom Bombadil saying that "no-one's ever caught Tom". So, you might not catch him, but that doesn't mean he's any use at siege warfare. The Valar's respective powers would be innate and tied to their essences.

Interesting comments about Men; and that Elves regarded Men as being similar to Melkor. I agree with the folks who said that Melkor feared the "gift of Iluvatar" (and the elves probably envied it; great stuff about fate, Artanis). No matter what he did to them, their spirits escaped eventually in death. Clearly, in the example of Hurin (or was it Huor), he preferred to keep him alive and crush his spirit than to kill him. No matter how completely he dominated Men, there would always be new generations with the potential to escape.

Which is nice

cheers

d.

[Wayfarer]

Remember, even at that time melkor was putting most of his power into domination of the physical world, and the valar weren't prepared to face him on that level. But tulkas was, and so he could beat melkor at his own game.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I sadly enough haven't read Morgoth's Ring yet. Artanis, can you tell me why Morgoth put his power into the physical earth? Sorry Eärniel, I didn't notice your question until now. Morgoth did so to gain dominion over the Earth and everything that lived on it. His uttermost goal was to destroy the Children of Iluvatar, and especially Men, whom he despised more, but feared most. He knew he could not annihilate their spirits, because they were not of this world, so he concentrated on destroying their physical existence.

[Earniel]

thanks :)

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Artanis
The Valar also spent their power, but their goal was (sub)creation. I believe Yavanna gave away a part of herself when she created the Two Trees. When those trees were destroyed, she could not make them anew. What the Valar achieved, they achieved only once.
That's true, and the theme runs through much of what the Elves created, too.

I'm not sure that the text states that Yavanna intended to create the trees:
.. and she sat there long upon the green grass and sang a song of power, in which was set all ther thought of things that grow in the earth.

So she wasn't thinking specifically about trees of light. But Nienna thought in silence, and watered the mould with her tears.
Clearly, the trees wouldn't have come about without Nienna. Did either of them know exactly what they were creating?

cheers

d.

(PS - I reckon that's a misprint in the text in the quote about Nienna: shouldn't it be "mound" instead of "mould"?)

[Dunadan]

What about that last sentence in the chapter?
Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Iluvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the world's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
This is a groovy thought.

For some reason I've got a mental picture of Elvis centre stage with John Lennon tied and gagged in the corner.

Lennon: "Imagine there's no heaven..."
Manwe: "That's enough of that sort of talk. Backing vocals only for you from now on, mate."

cheers

d.

[Wayfarer]

That's a pretty funny mental picture.

For some reason I think morgoth and sauron ought to do their own version of 'in the end' (I tried so hard/and I got so far/but in the end/it doesn't even matter). It seems to fit somehow. ]: )

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Iluvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the world's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

According to Morgoth's Ring the Elves of Valinor knew nothing of Men until Melkor told them.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dunadan
So she wasn't thinking specifically about trees of light.Perhaps not necessarily the form of trees, but I do think she wanted to create light, because all groving things on earth depended on it. The growth of flowers and trees in Middle-earth was checked when Melkor cast down the lamps.

Clearly, the trees wouldn't have come about without Nienna.The beauty here is that something wonderful sprung out of tears and sorrow, combined with the will to repair and make anew.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Dunadan
(PS - I reckon that's a misprint in the text in the quote about Nienna: shouldn't it be "mound" instead of "mould"?)
No; I think it means soil with lots of goodies in it, like mulch *runs to look up 'mould'*

yes, "loose, soft, easily worked soil ... good for growing plants", also "(archaic or poetic) earth or ground".


Nice thoughts, everyone! I like what you said, Artanis - The beauty here is that something wonderful sprung out of tears and sorrow, combined with the will to repair and make anew.

I had thought about how something good could come out of tears and sorrow before, but I like how you added "combined with the will to repair and make anew."

That's an interesting thought on Tom B, Dunadan - Tolkien's concept of "power" is not just who can destroy the most. It's easy to destroy, but it takes even more skill and power to make something beautiful.

[Sister Golden Hair]

That's an interesting thought on Tom B, Dunadan - Tolkien's concept of "power" is not just who can destroy the most. It's easy to destroy, but it takes even more skill and power to make something beautiful.I think that is why Morgoth was able to succeed in the Marring of Arda more easily then the Valar could clean up behind him. I think it says in "Morgoth's Ring" that the Valar became spent in trying to undo the damage he had caused. they had put so much into the shaping of the world that they were exhausted. I wonder if he (Morgoth) knew that when he put his power into the Earth, knowing the Valar were spent and would not be able to wholly heal its hurts.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Perhaps not necessarily the form of trees, but I do think she wanted to create light, because all groving things on earth depended on it. The growth of flowers and trees in Middle-earth was checked when Melkor cast down the lamps.

Good point. She wanted light regardless in what form. All her creatures slept under starlight and needed light to awake. It must have been hard for her to see the lamps destroyed and by that also the opportunity for her creations to wake. It does - I think - explain why it was her that created (with the help of Nienna) the next form of light. And I guess the form of a tree is the perfect choice for the Queen of the Earth. :)

[Arien the Maia]

I think that Melkor fears men because of all the Valar they are the most like him...and that poses as a threat to him

[Earniel]

I think this is the first re-read I tripped over the name Salmar, the companion of Ulmo who made his conches. This is also the only part of the Silmarillion where he appears, he's left out of the part concerning Maiar in the Valaquenta, unlike his companion water-maiar Ossë and UÃ*nen, so he must have been of very little importance.

I got curious and I had a look in the HoME index and was rather surprised to find several entries for him and many names. Clearly Salmar is a remnant from older mythology where he has a brother and a harp, and even a fight with Melko together with Tulkas. In the Silmarillion his only remaining claim to fame is being the maker of Ulmo's conches.

Another thing I hadn't picked up on was Melkor actually leaving Arda in a huf. He's off to the Void, which means that the Valar weren't entirely tied to Arda as I had been led to believe. So it appears to be rather more an order of Ilúvatar that they're obeying to stay put after they entered Arda the first time. But Melkor seemed to be able to come and go with impunity. And he is apparently there also not bothered by the presence of the other Ainur and Ilúvatar who must still have been watching. (It's the only show in existance, so of course the Ainur were still watching. The best drama in the universe, that Eä.)

I am still struck by the rather baffling decision of the Valar to not engage Melkor directly for fear of the Children's coming. The Valar did not know when, but surely waiting and doing nothing about a problem is not going to make it go away when the Children do arrive. And they will come, the Valar know that much. And after the destruction of the Lamps the world was already in turmoil so much that the Valar needed their strenght to calm it. Everything was already broken.

It seems to me that's the perfect time to make more mess and root out the problem once and for all. Stabilise the place and then drag Melkor out before you go redecorating. If you're renovating a garden from the bottom up and there's this one tree that's leaning and eventually have to come out or it'll crash on your house, then you're not going to finish renovating the garden and installing fragile borders first if you're going to have to bring in a big digger to haul out the cut stump later. This wasnt' the first time they had to undo Melkor's mess so it wasn't like they never had to have done it before.

So I'm thinking either the Valar believed they couldn't deal with Melkor anyhow or they were really just sick of it all and wanted a little me-time away from their annoying sibling. I can understand that even the Powers of the World get fed up with siblings of that caliber...

But while I can understand that, I can't understand why they couldn't make new dwellings in Middle-earth. Almaren is utterly gone, okay, but they went on to make Valimar and dwellings for them each in darkness, before Yavanna made the Trees, so it is not like their creative home-making skills were depleted after calming the turmoil in the lands and seas. Was Aman spared from the destruction of the two Lamps and is that why they went there instead? If so, how? If the lands were in symmetry, and Aman was the twin of Middle-earth why was it not in the same state then? Or was it just for the defensive position with the Sea at their back? If so, why not make a new one in Middle-earth?

Why not recreate a fortress of their own in Middle-earth while they kept Melkor quaking and hiding in Utumno, with Tulkas standing guard at the gates? They could have twarthed Melkor a lot more from there than from across the Sea. By moving to Aman, the Valar effectively gave up on Middle-earth and providing a safe home for the Children. Wasn't that their task from the beginning? I'm not sure how they justified this for themselves. It feels off.

And barely anyone still bother with Middle-earth after their translocation. Just Ulmo, Oromë and Yavanna. Manwë still watches but that's all he does. Which is all more damning.

I'm also stril struggling in fitting these events in the three Themes. The Third is the Children, so these events are either the First Theme or the Second. But what event marks the beginning and end of each Theme? Is the destruction of Almaren and the definitive marring of the world's symmetry a defining point? Or merely one creshendo amids more? Is giving up on Middle-earth and moving to Aman the final moment? The destruction of the Lamps perhaps? Is that why Ilúvatar was no longer smiling at the end of the Theme? Still struggling with that one.

I also noticed that when the Trees arise it is the first time anything flowers on Arda. Of flowers is is said a little while earlier in the text that they 'waited still their time in the bosom of Yavanna'. Clearly the light of the Lamps alone were not enough to bring them forth. There is now also a rest-period with the Trees, the Lamps gave light continuously but the Trees wax and wane. Was Yavanna still learning, I wonder? Did she only realise after the destruction of the Lamps that they were not an ideal light-source, that her kelvar and olvar would have use of a rest period with lesser light? Basically she invented Time at this moment, because it was only with the Trees that Time could be reckoned. This seems like a greater achievement than it is given credit for.