Ecological awarness among Númenóreans

[Maedhros]

One element that I have often associated with JRRT works of ME, is that the "Good guys" mostly have a sense of ecological awarness (exception of dwarves), you have the Hobbits, Elves, Ents and in a sense Men.
When Númenor was created, they had a very great influence by the Eldar, and it seemed to me that they had a certain harmony with their environment. Of course, it changed over time because of the desire of the Númenóreans to sail, they had to fell trees to make their ships.
This passage from Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix D
But in the earlier days, at the time of the first explorations of the Númenóreans, the situation was quite different. Minbiriath and Enedwaith were occupied by vast and almost continuous forests, except in the central region of the Great Fens. The changes that followed were largely due to the operations of Tar-Aldarion, the Mariner-king, who formed a friendship and alliance with Gil-galad. Aldarion had a great hunger for timber desiring to make Númenor into a great naval power; his felling of trees in Númenor had caused great dissensions. In voyages down the coasts he saw with wonder the great forests, and he chose the estuary of the Gwathló for the site of a new haven entirely under Númenórean control (Gondor of course did not yet exist). There he began great works, that continued to be extended after his days. This entry into Eriador later proved of great importance in the war against Sauron (Second Age 1693-1701); but it was in origin a timber-port and ship-building harbour. The native people were fairly numerous and warlike, but they were forest-dwellers, scattered communities without central leadership. They were in awe of the Númenóreans, but they did not become hostile until the tree-felling became devastating. Then they attacked and ambushed the Númenóreans when they could, and the Númenóreans treated them as enemies, and became ruthless in their fellings, giving no thought to husbandry or replanting.
I wonder if this too a sign of the degeneration of the Númenóreans as a whole? The beginning of the end, or just what is what meant to happen.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I would certainly take it as a sign of the beginning of their downfall. I must go back and find where Tar-Aldarion is in the timeline, relative to the other signs of the 'downfall' of Numenor. I think it also ties in with the theme in Lord of the Rings and the destruction of Isengard--the ents were angry enough to take action against Saruman for his destruction of the trees, just as the unsustainable and harvest of the trees by the Numenoreans could be a sign of the beginning of their downfall.

[Artanis]

Maedhros, why exception for the dwarves?

Else, I agree that the ruthless felling of trees was a sign of decay, when it was done for the sake of gaining more power and riches, and without thought of replanting.

[Maedhros]

Maedhros, why exception for the dwarves?
Because of this. From the Published Silmarillion:Of Aulë and Yavanna
Yet because thou hiddest this thought from me until its achievement, thy children will have little love for the things of my love. They will love first the things made by their own hands, as doth their father. They will delve in the earth, and the things that grow and live upon the earth they will not heed. Many a tree shall feel the bite of their iron without pity.'
There is another quote in LOTR when Treebeard meets Gimli, but I have not the time to see it.
Last but more importantly is the never ending question of: Why did the Man on the Moon came down too soon?

[Artanis]

I didn't remember that quote from the Sil. :)
Originally posted by Maedhros
There is another quote in LOTR when Treebeard meets Gimli, but I have not the time to see it.Yes, Treebeard resented dwarves and Gimli was carrying an axe. Treebeard was a bit softened though, when Gimli explained how he used his axe to cleave orc-necks.
Why did the Man on the Moon came down too soon? Because he was impatient? ;)

[Maedhros]

That is the never ending question in the beginning of the Legendarium.
Why indeed?

[Artanis]

Maedhros, you are speaking in riddles. :)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Maedhros
(exception of dwarves)

Interesting that, because in the early mythologies, (from what I've read anyway, BOLT 1 and 2, Lays) Tolkien portrayed the dwarves as evil. Perhaps their lack of ecological awareness is a handover from the old mythologies?

However, remember what Gimli said about working in the glittering caves. Can't remember the exact quote, but it did sound like a form of ecological awareness to me: caring for the natural layout of the caves. He spoke almost tenderly.

[Maedhros]

Maedhros, you are speaking in riddles.
Can it be Artanis, that you have forgotten about Uolë Kúvion?

[Artanis]

Can be. Or it can be that I've never heard of him before. Is he a BoLT1 figure? I haven't laid my hand on that yet.

Enlighten me, please. :)

[Maedhros]

From the Book of Lost Tales I: The Tale of the Sun and the Moon
Manwë bade therefore Ilinsor, a spirit of the Súruli who loved the snows and the starlight and aided Varda in many of her works, to pilot this strange-gleaming boat, and with him went many another spirit of the air arrayed in robes of silver and white, or else of palest gold; but an aged Elf with hoary locks stepped upon the Moon unseen and hid him in the Rose, and them dwells he ever since and tends that flower, and a little white turret has he builded on the Moon where often he climbs and watches the heavens, or the world beneath, and that is Uolë Kúvion who sleepeth never. Some indeed have named him the Man in the Moon, but Ilinsor is it rather who hunts the stars.
If you look at the poem at the end of that section you would notice it's name: Why the Man in the Moon came down too soon
Now regarding the dwarves we have:
From the Book of Lost Tales: The awakening of Men
According to A 'the fays and those Men that aided them were defeated', but B calls it an 'undecided battle', and the Men corrupted by Fangli fled away and became 'wild and savage tribes', worshipping Fangli and Melko. Thereafter (in A only) Palisor was possessed by 'Fangli and his hosts of Nauglath (or Dwarves)'. (In the early writings the Dwarves are always portrayed as an evil people.)

[Finmandos12]

Concerning evil Dwarves....

If you remember, Tolkien did say that some of the eastern houses of dwarves became corrupted by Morgoth.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I don't see why Tolkien was so incredibly anti-technology. Humans were created to develop and create technology. I do believe though that using trees without thought of replacing them is bad, but I think cutting down trees to invent boats is good, as long as they grow more (obviously... that's kind of stupid, not replanting trees. WHat happens when you run out of trees smart ones -Numenoreans-? heh).

But i believe it's fine as long as you have tree-farms. Tolkien seemed to have a personal relationship with trees.... I read a biography on him and it said he used to go on walks through the park and he sort of got to know each tree. He knew exactly where each tree was, and which ones were his favorites. So I guess if you're that attatched to individual trees it would seem sort of wicked to cut them down...:confused:

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
(obviously... that's kind of stupid, not replanting trees. WHat happens when you run out of trees smart ones -Numenoreans-? heh).

Good point. Who knows if Aldarion had pushed his logging even further the Numenoreans would have gone the same way as those of Eastern Island. A chilling thought.

[Mirahzi]

Don't forget that although Aldarion cut down forests for timber, he replenished them also.

From the Unfinished Tales: Aldarion and Erendis:
When Aldarion had been five years ashore he began to be busy again with his Mastership of Forests, and was often many days away from his house. There was now indeed sufficient timber in Numenor (and that was chiefly owing to his prudence); yet since the people were now more numerous there was ever need of wood for building and for the making of many things beside.
...
At that time Aldarion again gave most heed to the future, planting where there was felling, and had new woods set to grow where there was room, a free land that was suited to trees of different kinds.

And also, it's unlikely that the Numenoreans would be at a lack for timber during that time and afterwards, since they made many voyages to Middle Earth.

[Laurus Nobilis]

That's an interesting idea. I think Tolkien indeed wanted to show they were starting to decay. He uses the symbolism of felling trees many times: in Númenor, in Isengard, during the Scouring of the Shire.

don't see why Tolkien was so incredibly anti-technology. Humans were created to develop and create technology. I do believe though that using trees without thought of replacing them is bad, but I think cutting down trees to invent boats is good, as long as they grow more (obviously... that's kind of stupid, not replanting trees. WHat happens when you run out of trees smart ones -Numenoreans-? heh).

I don't think Tolkien thought of cutting down trees as a bad thing per se, but only when it was done without need and/or replanting. Ruthlessly, one could say, considering how he handles trees in ME. They're living beings that actually feel.