Fav Gollum part [Archive]

eowyngirl14

12-22-2002, 05:38 PM

I really liked the part when smeagol (the good side of Gollum) is talking to Gollum (the bad side of him). Everyone in my theater laughed, including me. but I pictured Gollum as being more bad than good, I kept thinking he was going to kill Sam and or Frodo when I first read the book.
I also like the part in the movie when Smeagol is diving in the Forbidden Pool and is eating a fish. I love the little song he sings, but the noise the fish made when he slammed it against the rock was a little gross. It made me feel sorry for the fish.

Treebeard's apprentice

12-22-2002, 05:59 PM

I thought Gollum was a great character and I agree that he really did seem like a real 'person'. The scene where he debates with himself was amazing as far as editing/acting/telling the story.

The problem I had with him, though, was that he seemed too much like a joke. In almost every scene he was in, the whole theater was laughing at him. It's okay to have some comedy, but you need to have some pity and fear of him, too. In my opinion, there wasn't enough of that.

Sminty_Smeagol

12-22-2002, 06:13 PM

Yeah. I think he was too comical. But maybe its the audience? I found the conversation with himself to be quite sad and pity-able... meanwhile the whole theatre was cracking up. It seemed like they definately meant for gollum to be comical in many parts... but even some parts I didn't think were comical at all, but the audience chuckled at (such as when gollum is being questioned by Faramir and he goes into a little space and is talking to himself), and I think mental illness is so looked down upon that even if you had made him schizophrenic the audience would be laughing. They think schizophrenia is funny. And they don't take it seriously.

Varda Oiolosseo

12-22-2002, 06:26 PM

Yeah deffinately the Gollum/Smeagol scenes!!! At the end when he is going I'll take them to her.. she can kill them! That was clever! As everyone was going who's 'her' !!

Gollum was one of the best parts and I didn't find him that comical where as most people did!

azalea

12-22-2002, 09:58 PM

I agree w/ what Sminty said. I think there were parts that were meant to be humourous, but then the audience laughed at parts that I think were to show his more pitiable/ wretched side. But I think that does say something about the mass audience -- because of the nature of mass media today (how lowley or outcast characters are presented and reacted to on tv, in movies. etc.), we are conditioned to laugh at what is pitiable, rather than to feel pity. It's pretty sad. Then again, I could be completely wrong!

Gwaimir Windgem

12-22-2002, 10:15 PM

Well, when I saw the movie, the audience was laughing at first at the Slinker/Stinker parts, but they quieted down pretty quickly. After that, I don't remember any laughter at Smeagol vs. Gollum scenes. When he sang to his fish, and called Sam "fat, stupid hobbit", sure... ;)

Arathorn

12-22-2002, 10:55 PM

I want one with its own AI (better than tamagochi) living in my computer screen. I should be able to choose to give him fishhh, taters, etc. If he poops or moves my folders around, I can choose to to smack him or put Sam's rope on his leg.

Back on topic:

My favorite part is when he was singing in the pool. Before that he was like a little puppy crossed with a frog. :D

Renille

12-22-2002, 11:29 PM

I LOVED the conflict scenes...I at first thought there might actually have been two Gollums somehow. If you noticed, they showed the cave at a different angle behind his head with the "Gollum" and "Smeagol." That was pretty cool. But then I remembered that Gollum didn't REALLY split in half in the book...:p Yeah. I loved the fish scene. It made me want to cry, I felt so sorry for him. The parts where Frodo seemed to like him better than Sam made me more aware of the Ring's power.

I think Gollum was the most well thought out character in the movie.

BeardofPants

12-23-2002, 12:32 AM

I didn't have a problem with people laughing at Gollum/Smeagol. In the book, his character is pitiful/laughable as well. And it wasn't like everyone was raucously laughing either... more hesitant laughter.

My favourite scene is down in the forbidden pool.

Blackboar

12-23-2002, 07:29 AM

I like all the scenes where hes doing his Slinker/stinker thing:D

Sminty_Smeagol

12-23-2002, 08:37 AM

OoOoO yeah Renille... I dunno if it was in the books or not, If it was I must have forgotten about it. But when Frodo showed so much pity for Gollum when Sam didn't... It sort of reminded me that the Ring was effecting Frodo... making him a little like that.

eowyngirl14

12-23-2002, 11:26 AM

when frodo was saying that he had to believe that gollum/smeagol would get better, I interpretted it to mean that Frodo was afraid that he would end up like Gollum in the end. I think that Frodo needed to believe that Gollum/Smeagol could get better so that he could keep going and not give up on the spot! I am very very mad at Gollum for calling Sam a 'Stupid fat hobbit'!

Faramir Took

12-23-2002, 11:33 AM

I though gollum was truly the star of the movie. he was great, although I think cute is stretching it just a bit.

Blackboar

12-23-2002, 11:50 AM

I think he's cute:rolleyes:

Sminty_Smeagol

12-23-2002, 11:55 AM

Well *I* think Gollum is sexy... so dont even start on people who are just calling him cute!

durin's bane

12-23-2002, 12:53 PM

I loved the part where he sings to his fish and the part where he and Sam are together.

WallRocker

12-23-2002, 02:29 PM

I really liked the part when Golllum was in the forbidden pool. The song he sings is great:) :D I also think the little poem he has in the Dead Marshes was done really well.

Elf.Freak

12-24-2002, 08:22 AM

I loved the "Stupid fat hobbit!" and the bit where he was talking to himself the first time and the forbidden pool bit:)

eowyngirl14

12-24-2002, 03:43 PM

Samis not "Stupid" or "Fat"!!! I heard that they made him gain 20 pounds to play the role of Sam!! I agree with Sam that Gollum should not be trusted!! Look what he does at the end of TTT!! (The book I mean, not the movie!)

Shadowfax

12-24-2002, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by eowyngirl14
Look what he does at the end of TTT!! (The book I mean, not the movie!) Yes, true, but then you must look at what he does at the end of RotK. I think that justifies it.

Elenka

12-24-2002, 06:38 PM

I liked the forbidden pool scene. It was funny. And I actually have no objection to people laughing at him, because he's so easy to laugh at:)) Perhaps I'm just mean.

IluvSmeagol13

12-24-2002, 08:54 PM

i was wondering-does frodo pity gollum because of the ring,or does frodo just feel bad for him?does frodo think that he himself could turn into a creature like gollum if he doesn't destroy the ring-is that y he pities gollum?is it because of wat gandalf told him in moria?and is it good that frodo pities gollum-or bad?and is it good or bad that sam doesn't trust gollum?why does sam not trust gollum?sorry for all these questions-but me and my mom were just talkin bout it the other night after we went to see T2T for the second time.*and please no return of the king spoilers-i still haven't finished reading the book yet!*

also-i was thinkin bout this the other day when i went to order a cofee at donkin donuts-imagine talking like gollum into the speaker when the person asks for your order.."we wants a cofee with 2 sugarsss and cream--and we wantss to know if you sell fishesessss"..:D lol...the person workin there would be very creeped out--it would be funny though if someone really did it..

oh yeah-merry X-mas every1!

Sminty_Smeagol

12-24-2002, 09:39 PM

I guess you can translate it however you like but I believe that Frodo pitied Gollum because the Ring was starting to have an effect on him... but whether he realized it or not I think it made him able to relate a little in that way, and sort of made a connection. But then again it may just be because it would be neccessary for the story, for if gollum hadn't have been pitied and had been killed, how would the story end?

eowyngirl14

12-24-2002, 10:19 PM

As I said once before, I feel that Frodo pities Gollum because Frodo is afraid that he, Frodo will end up being like Gollum if he is in possesin of the ring for any longer. In the movie Frodo says, "I have to believe that he can come back" I think that is because Frodo needs to believe that if he is totally posessed by the ring, that Sam, or some other person will be able to save him, bring him back into the light.:) Bur I could be totally wrong and he just pities Gollum because he is patheti and looks a lot like a cross between Dobby and Yoda, and a little puppy who wants to take over the world.

Earniel

12-25-2002, 08:14 AM

My favorite gollum-scene was when he was whining that Sam was ruining the rabbits. So cute. :)

The pronounciation of Smeagol was a revelation, though. I've been pronouncing it in the dutch way nearly all my life. At first I didn't even catch it in the movie. And I was thinking "What did he just say? Was that Smeagol? Is it pronounced THAT way? Bummer." :D

eowyngirl14

12-25-2002, 03:07 PM

I am a stupid ignorant american, what is the Dutch way to pronounce Smeagol?? You could just spell it how it sounds like, for example, Smeagol, the Americn way would be pronounced , Smee- gull.

Earniel

12-25-2002, 03:49 PM

You're not ignorant eowyngirl14. It's just that in Dutch and Flemish vowels are pronounced differently than in English. I didn't realise that while reading LOTR so I always said something like: "Smeh-aa-chol. It's a far cry from Smeegull. :)

eowyngirl14

12-25-2002, 03:54 PM

I like the way that sounds... Maybe I'll call him that from now on to scare m friends, not that theDutch are scarey or anything...:) I see that you speak/type English was the Dutch version subtitled, or did you watch it in Dutch? If it was subtitled where did they put the english subtitles when they were speaking Elvish, or were there any... sry for all of the question, just curious!!:D

Sminty_Smeagol

12-25-2002, 04:05 PM

Ooo... yeah I always thought it was pronounced Smeh-uh-gull... and I'm a stupid american. I just don't know anything about accent symbols... I thought it if there was an accent over one vowell it would be elongated and pronounced seperately. Just a guess.

Earniel

12-25-2002, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by eowyngirl14
I like the way that sounds... Maybe I'll call him that from now on to scare m friends, not that theDutch are scarey or anything...:) I see that you speak/type English was the Dutch version subtitled, or did you watch it in Dutch? If it was subtitled where did they put the english subtitles when they were speaking Elvish, or were there any... sry for all of the question, just curious!!:D

Luckily the movie was English spoken, I don't think I could have lived through it otherwise. Hearing Gandalf speak Dutch would be.... weird. Movies here normally don't get Dutch voice-overs unless they're kiddie movies. The english subtitles were removed and Dutch and French ones were added. (Belgium has both as official language)

Shadowfax

12-25-2002, 07:39 PM

I always thought that it was pronounced *smay-uh-gol*, because it is written with an accent on the 'e': Sméagol, and in French then 'é' is pronounced 'ay'. When I see accents I always think of the French way.

Renille

12-25-2002, 09:44 PM

I must be incredibly stupid...I've always pronounced it Smee-ah-goal. I blame Wisconsin/ entire midwest. :p (Of course, I'm never good at pronounciations...oh well. I don't have to read it aloud, at least!:p )

TinuvielChild

12-25-2002, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
Well *I* think Gollum is sexy... so dont even start on people who are just calling him cute!

I'm just going to refrain from comment on this one....

Originally posted by Shadowfax
I always thought that it was pronounced *smay-uh-gol*, because it is written with an accent on the 'e': Sméagol, and in French then 'é' is pronounced 'ay'.

Ditto.

TinuvielChild

12-25-2002, 11:00 PM

And my favorite Gollum parts were both the Slinker/Stinker bits, and the "ruined rabbits" thing.

Arathorn

12-25-2002, 11:28 PM

I think I also like the part where Frodo first calls him Smeagol and he sort of remembers being called that 500 yrs ago. It's so touching...

Sminty_Smeagol

12-26-2002, 10:04 AM

Yes. And the conversation with himself in front of Faramir.... :( I like the sad and creepy parts, the few parts the actually put in :mad:

eowyngirl14

12-26-2002, 04:11 PM

Last night I watched the extended DVD for the fotr. Does anyone else think that the Gollum in fotr, looks different then he does in TTT? Or id it just me?:cool:

Sminty_Smeagol

12-26-2002, 06:49 PM

i read somewhere that they used a different gollum entirely after FotR.

Renille

12-26-2002, 11:54 PM

That would make sense, because he DOES look much different. Notice the yellowish eyes in FotR. And did he have that stringy hair in TTT? I couldn't tell...oh well. It still was a great creation.

Arathorn

12-27-2002, 01:02 AM

Perhaps he had a make-over. I seem to remember the orcs givig him the total care treatment at the parlor in Mordor. He even shows us his newly manicured nails while yelling "Shire! Baggins!"

shirefarmer

12-27-2002, 04:27 PM

I felt for gollum!!!
Yeah he did make me laugh but that was because i can relate to him Who doesnt feel like that sometimes or all the time

samwise of the shire

12-27-2002, 05:34 PM

Gollum had stringy hair in TTT, it just blended with his head. I think that the reason he changed in TTT was because he didn't have the Ring and so wasn't totally wacked out, and not only that but he was being treated nicely for the first time in a long while so that made his countenance sweeter...almost cute in a strange way. Which is what I like about the movie Gollum...he's more human and you can pity him properly because you can see and hear him and you can understand to a certain extent where he's comin' from. It's sad he has to...*looks at those who have not read ROTK*...yeah...never mind. :)
Cheers,
Sam

RockerChik106

12-27-2002, 07:10 PM

I like the part where he is arguing with Sam about the food! I thought it was funny. I also like the song he sings when he is killing the fish. LOL! The parts where he is arguing with himself were good too.:D

eowyngirl14

12-28-2002, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by shirefarmer
I felt for gollum!!!
Yeah he did make me laugh but that was because i can relate to him Who doesnt feel like that sometimes or all the time

Ummm... I don't...:)

Eowyn Telcontar

12-31-2002, 04:16 PM

Gollum is soooo cute, I think. I'm so depressed since they have to make him bad in the end. I don't think Tolkien made him that cute in the book. But they made him so cute in the movie, its going to be awful when he hands them to Shelob. Noo! :( Well, I love the rabbit and PO-TAY-TOE scene! HEHE!

Yazad

12-31-2002, 04:32 PM

My favorite scene with Gollum was the cave scene in the prologue in FotR. In fact, that's my favorite shot from either movie so far. It was brilliant and really captured the feeling of The Hobbit along with the darkness of LotR. A gorgeous 5 seconds of film.

As for Gollum in TTT, he was pretty okay, if a bit too Disnefied, but still (I gotta give credit where it's due) not as Disnified as he could have been or as I expected.

Does anyone else think he looked like Cate Blanchett a lot of the time? His big eyes and his smile? I don't know why, but that's what I was thinking in almost every scene he was in.

Yazad

Legolas_is_fit

01-02-2003, 10:37 AM

I think Gollum is amazing in every sence he plays in. I really like his eyes, even though they freak me out.:D :eek:
But dosnt he destroy the ring because he falls in???

Blackboar

01-02-2003, 11:45 AM

He falls in with the ring therefore destroying it:rolleyes:

I love all the slinker/stinker scenes:D :D ;)

eowyngirl14

01-02-2003, 05:23 PM

The slinker/ stinker scenes are very cool... I can't wait untill rotk and we get to see the ring destroyed! But I don't look forward to shelob... I am afraid of spiders. I started to frak out during the spider scene of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets! My twin sister kept throwing popcorn at my... I was very very very very very scared!:eek: :)

Millane

01-02-2003, 07:40 PM

no one has mentioned the start when frodo and sam first encounter Gollum that was great especially Gollum puffing when he is on top of frodo grabbing at the ring, he also got best punch for him turning round and punching sam down when sam grabbed his leg he should have appeared at helms deep, when he has the rope on just he way he moves and when he "swears to serve the master of the precious on... on... on the PRECIOUS" ohhh i could go on and on but ill only mention a few more bits :p liked all the scenes with gollum and the line at the end "come on hobbits long way to go yet" "follow me"
sure he was funny but that was just the way he was they didnt stuff round with him to make him that way he is just that sorta carachter... even my ignorant samwise-speaks-too-much friend felt sad for smeagol at the "smeagol why does it cry smeagol" "cruel men hurts us" and thats saying a lot

eowyngirl14

01-02-2003, 09:36 PM

I ad forgotten about those parts, yes, they are very good. Yet no matter how mwny times smeagol is kicked, pushed, punched, or falss down, or jumps ona rock, you never see any bruises on him. Is that a mistake, or is his skin just super tough and harm resistant?:)

Sminty_Smeagol

01-02-2003, 10:57 PM

I am positive that I read on some article, most likely online, that they totally rebuilt and remodelled gollum after FotR. Not neccessarily to go with the story, but he's hardly in FOTR, or atleast hardly shown, and they didn't need to be incredibly concerned about every aspect of him until TTT. it makes sense. I don't think they did it because he is treated well in TTT... it was a very technical decision as far as i know.

wahine

01-03-2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by Treebeard's apprentice
I thought Gollum was a great character and I agree that he really did seem like a real 'person'. The scene where he debates with himself was amazing as far as editing/acting/telling the story.

The problem I had with him, though, was that he seemed too much like a joke. In almost every scene he was in, the whole theater was laughing at him. It's okay to have some comedy, but you need to have some pity and fear of him, too. In my opinion, there wasn't enough of that.

I have to warn you first off that I was not a fan of either movie. yet, as any good tolkien fan, I have seen them, and will see ROTK.

They did, however, go from the original "Dark Drama" catergory, and make it "Light Hearted Laugh at Smeagol Drama" I didn't appreciate it.

I also didn't appreciate the constant, all too scripted dialogue from Legolas and Gimli.

This is my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it.

Leilani

eowyngirl14

01-03-2003, 05:14 PM

I loved the movies! But you are right, they did move down a little on the very dark and scary and scary scale...:) I thought Helm's Deep was done very well though!:)

Firhithiel Greenleaf

01-03-2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
Yeah. I think he was too comical. But maybe its the audience? I found the conversation with himself to be quite sad and pity-able... meanwhile the whole theatre was cracking up. It seemed like they definately meant for gollum to be comical in many parts... but even some parts I didn't think were comical at all, but the audience chuckled at (such as when gollum is being questioned by Faramir and he goes into a little space and is talking to himself), and I think mental illness is so looked down upon that even if you had made him schizophrenic the audience would be laughing. They think schizophrenia is funny. And they don't take it seriously.

I agree! I thought the part where Gollum was talking to himself was very sad. The part where he was saying "Go away!" to Bad Gollum was very cool because he was being brave. But my whole family was like cracking up. I mean, literally, they were all "My preeeeeccciouuuusss...." It was kind of sad. I felt sorry for Gollum because while he is *trying* to fight, it doesn't really work. I think he should've attacked Faramir instead of trying to kill Frodo and Sam because he feels "betrayed". Frodo didn't really betray him (at least in the movie) Faramir did!!! But then again Gollum is kind of dumb. No offense. No he's not dumb, he's... insane. I guess you could say that...

Sminty_Smeagol

01-03-2003, 07:25 PM

I think, seeing as Frodo was sympathetic for Gollum, he should have explained that betrayal was on Faramir's part.

azalea

01-03-2003, 09:23 PM

But it is true that he wouldn't understand, and it also goes deeper than that. He is can't think of the word, but "tied" to Frodo by the oath he made, and that going both ways also "ties" Frodo to be faithful to him, the whole master/ servant thing. So in lying to him and getting him trapped, yes he is saving him, but he has also tricked him into a situation by abusing the trust that is there by virtue of the oath. There is no other way, but Gollum still sees it as a betrayal.

eowyngirl14

01-03-2003, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by Firhithiel Greenleaf
.......
Frodo didn't really betray him (at least in the movie) Faramir did!!! But then again Gollum is kind of dumb. No offense. No he's not dumb, he's... insane. I guess you could say that...

Yes, he is definetly a little cookoo! But I wouldn't say dumb, maybe 'under educated'... anyways, he needs to go to some anger managment classes with Anakin from SW Episode: 2... they could get family/friend consuling togeather too!:)

LuthienTinuviel

01-04-2003, 08:57 PM

look at my sig.

Dúnedain

01-05-2003, 01:46 AM

I liked everything about him, I still cannot believe how real he looked. I'd say my favorite part was him battling himself, Gollum vs. Smeagol. Especially when he was saying "I'm not listening!" :D

Lady of Rivendell

01-05-2003, 03:58 AM

I liked the taters and coney scene between him and Sam!=-)

Althougth, I loved all the scenes. Gollum was a great character that was done beautifully! I seriously believe that the studio was 100% justified in petitioning for a nomination for Andy!=-)

Millane

01-05-2003, 07:59 AM

did anyone else think that at the start when gollum was climbing down the rock that he looked really old and then after the fight he had become rejuvinated and young looking

Evenstar1400

01-06-2003, 10:53 PM

well, now that i think about it........ he did look kinda rejuvinated

Evenstar1400

01-06-2003, 10:56 PM

my fav. part with gollum was when he had his argument with his bad self.......... and then the little "happy dance" afterwards

i really liked the computer animation...... like.......... you could see the cracks in gollum's skin. he looked really real

Huan

01-07-2003, 01:14 AM

Those who thought Smeagol should be pronounced Smeh-ah-gol are almost undoubtedly correct. That is indeed why Tolkien placed an accent in, though I think the reason had less to do with French than with trying to get us to pronounce it the Old English way: Old English is full of double-vowels for which you pronounce both individually. The line in Beowulf from which Tolkien got the word Ent, for example: enta geweorc, works of giants/ ents. Geweorc is pronounced ye-weh-orc. Or weard (ward or guard): weh-ard. Middengeard (middle-yard or of course, middle-earth): mid-den-yeh-ard. The films do their best to pronouce things as Tolkien would have intended, but occasionally they drop the ball, as in the case of Smeagol. Another mistake, I am convinced, is Isengard, which is another Old Germanic-of-some-kind (I think Norse) construction, in which case it should not be Eye-sengard as they say in the movie, but ISS-engard (iron-land). The "gard" element is directly related, incidentally, to the "geard" in middengeard. Yes, I am a huge linguistics and etymology nerd.

cassiopeia

01-07-2003, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by Huan
Those who thought Smeagol should be pronounced Smeh-ah-gol are almost undoubtedly correct.
I wondered about that too, and I think it is pronounced Sme-a-gol. It says in the appendices EA don't run together, but constitute 2 syllables.

My favorite Gollum part is the end when he speaks of 'she'. My least favorite part is when he breaks the spine of the poor coney. Ick!

Arathorn

01-07-2003, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by cassiopeia
My least favorite part is when he breaks the spine of the poor coney. Ick!

And I though it was some archaic technique of tenderizing meat. :rolleyes:

azalea

01-07-2003, 03:46 PM

I liked when Frodo was confronting him and he recited the little rhyme:
Cold be hand and heart and bone
And cold be travelers far from home, etc.

eowyngirl14

01-07-2003, 05:07 PM

I really liked hte part at the end when Gollum was saying "We could let her do it" "Yes Yes, she could do it!" One of my friends who hadn't read the book called me late on the week and asked me sho the hell 'she' was... It was quite funny!:)

Earniel

01-08-2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Huan
Those who thought Smeagol should be pronounced Smeh-ah-gol are almost undoubtedly correct.

YES! *pounds the sky* For once, just this once I'm actually right! :D *hugs Huan*;)

eowyngirl14

01-08-2003, 04:47 PM

Smeh ah gol just sounds funny! I said Smeagol to start off with. If that is how you are suppost to pronounce it, then why did they change it in the movie? And how do you know they are undoutbedly correct???

cassiopeia

01-09-2003, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by eowyngirl14
Smeh ah gol just sounds funny! I said Smeagol to start off with. If that is how you are suppost to pronounce it, then why did they change it in the movie? And how do you know they are undoutbedly correct???

I have no idea how they got it wrong in the movie, since they got Sauron and Celeborn correct. It says quite clearly in the appendices of ROTK that ea is two syllables. Unless I'm somehow mistaken. :confused:

Huan

01-09-2003, 12:42 AM

Quote:YES! *pounds the sky* For once, just this once I'm actually right!
Well, I don't KNOW I'm absolutely right.

Quote: If that is how you are suppost to pronounce it, then why did they change it in the movie? And how do you know they are undoutbedly correct???

But at the risk of sounding know-it-allish, I suspect smeh-ah-gol is correct because Tolkien adored Old English, and that's how you'd pronounce it in that tongue. Aragorn's (in the movie Theoden's) song about "where is the horn that was blowing?" etc. is adapted from several Old English poems, most notably The Wanderer. And the entire approach of the heroes to Edoras is unabashedly based on a scene in Beowulf. Old English and the other old Germanic tongues are one of the keys to LOTR.

Haldir lives!

Dúnedain

01-09-2003, 01:01 AM

I also love the part when Frodo says his name to him, and Smeagol is remembering his old name and you can see it come from the back of his mind as a life lost and once cherished. They did a great job in providing his emotions and capturing those so lifelike...