Inoldonil, I have a question for you...

[Lord Xanthyz]

What does the name "Inoldonil" come from? I checked the Index of names in the back of The Silmarillion and it wasn't there. I even checked that glossary of names and places of everything from The Hobbit to The Silmarillion and it wasn't there either.

[easterlinge]

He probably made it up from Elvish words. He knows the elf-tongue. :D

[Sephiroth9611]

If I was at college, there is a complete dictionary with word parts in the main library, and I could look there. I could also look in "The History of Middle-earth" for the linguistic stuff in there, but that would be time-consuming.

[Lord Xanthyz]

I also checked the little elf language thing in the back of the book, nothing there either.=)

But maybe there is more than what is shown there...

[anduin]

Inoldonil is the only one who knows the real answer.......so come on dude, spill it! ;)

[Lord Xanthyz]

We're all waiting on you now, Inoldonil.:)

[Inoldonil]

Pardon me! I haven't had time to get a look in here. Inoldonil is what my brother (who appears on these forums as Perisil) named me, it is indeed made of elements (from Quenya), no character as far as I am aware has it. Ingold is close, that is a Common Speech name, worn down from (in origin) Ingoldo, ' the noldo, one eminent in the kindred', the mother-name of Finarfin.

My name means 'the friend of knowledge'. 'I' is 'the', noldo, meant in origin 'Wisdom', but in the sense of Knowledge or Philosophy 'in its older applications which included Science'. Of course it was used as the singular of Noldor. Nil was a form of ndil (like 'dil', which occurs in many notable names like Elendil and Amandil). Mr. Helge Fauskanger says of it it implies devotion or disinterested love and may be translated "friend" (SA: ( n)dil); this ending is "describing the attitude of one to a person, thing, course or occupation to which one is devoted for its own sake" (Letters:386)

My brother felt (and feels) it fitted (and fits) me very well. I like it.

It is quite a compliment I think, that you should go through such trouble for knowledge's sake. :)

By the way, I do not exactly know the elf-tongue. I am not a linguist, I've just read so much (too much) I remember the meaning of some elements in words and names, especially in Quenya which I like better than Sindarin.

[easterlinge]

"Inoldonil" also means "Elf- Friend", then. It's a little like the Old Tongue in the Wheel of Time series: it can have many shades of meaning.

Pretty cool, Inoldonil. :)

So the Quenya form for my name would be "Romenadan" ("Eastern Man") ? It sounds pretty nice, wish I'd thought of that earlier. Maybe I'll change my name.... naah, people know me as easterlinge for too long now. What say you?

Gilthalion would mean steadfast-something ( I don't know what "Gil" means. Maybe "sword" or "blade" or even "star" ).

Angloril? Maybe "Iron Flame" or "Blazing Steel". Or is that the meaning of "Angril" ?

What about Bovril and Persil? :lol:

[cian]

You would need to use Q. "atan" (if wanted) rather Easterlinge ... Q. "d" occurs in consonantal combos (ie. nd(y), rd, ld) Adan is Sindarin. CF. Q. Núnatani "Western-men". Cheers~

[cian]

Oh, and S. gîl = "star" :)

[Inoldonil]

Or at any rate it could also mean 'The Elf-friend', or 'The Lore-master's friend' as Tolkien sometimes translated 'Noldor' as 'Lore-masters', but these would be rather loose translations.

'Atan' eventually became a word only used for one of those three peoples of Men in the First Age. 'Ner' meant 'man' in Quenya, but was not exclusive to what we should call 'humans', it meant 'adult male'. So Easterling might be Romenner, Eastman

'Thalion' actually means 'hero'.

If Angloril is my old friend from the ME Vault, then he is a Dragon. 'Lor' in Sindarin was a word of the colour gold, esp. golden light (like 'cala' in Quenya), it probably refers in this name to the colour of his scales. 'loril' might be 'golden'. I think it was borrowed from Silvan and adapted into Sindarin. It occurs in the original name of Lothlorien - Lorinand. Of course in Quenya 'lor' meant dream. This may be incorrect. I know even less about Sindarin than I do of Quenya.

Angril is Ironflame. Flame in Quenya I think was Lacho.

Perisil means 'Halfmoon'. I don't know about Bovril.

[cian]

Yes, that's why I say "if wanted" with regards "atan" ... my point in any event is generally highlighting the structure involved ... ie "adan" would be awkward Quenya, which hints at it being Sindarin, meaning aside ~ indeed use S. dîr Q. nér where appropriate.

Actually, I'd probably call an Easterling Q. Hravan ;)

Inoldonil, a niggle :) and comments:

"lacho" cannot be Quenya. (-ch-) but Sindarin Lachend "flame-eyed" & lacho as S. imperative "flame!" (<-verbal). Element -ril from *RIL means "glitter, a bright gleaming (reflective) light".
S. -lor can indeed denote "golden light" (or laur) ... S. glaur "golden light".

[easterlinge]

HTML Comments are not allowed

[cian]

I'm sorry Easterlinge, what does that mean?

[Inoldonil]

Is not 'Lacho calad! Drego morn!' (Flame Light! Flee Night!) Quenya? I thought it was. At any rate the Tengwa thule is used for ch for Quenya. Maybe not, I just checked, you're right. Lacho is Sindarin. I'm making a mental note to trust you and consult you at important points.

So 'flame' in Sindarin was lach? I was easily misled about the meaning of ril! Flame of the West for Anduril was a cruel loose translation! :( But now Mithril makes more sense, :)

How did you get to Hravan?

My comments about atan were typed before I read your post, so I wasn't talking to you, only telling him the same thing. ;)

As for what Easterlinge just 'said', I don't think he said it. On another thread I screwed up with my HTML, that is, I screwed up posting a link. I didn't do the end tag, I didn't place the '/link' after the address. I tried to edit it, messed up somehow and when I posted all it told me was that HTML Comments are not allowed. I don't rightly know why that is. I edited it though.

I guess easterlinge ran into a similar problem and hasn't realized it.

[cian]

LOL! I'm questioning a computer function? :)

Anyway, I'm no David Salo to be sure! but I do have an interest in the langs, as you obviously do Inoldonil, so well met! (Hravan(i) was a bit of a joke there, "the wild", a non-edain designation as you probably know). Your atan comment was well added in any event ... more folks are likely interested in the historic details of Quenya (as I am too of course) rather than where/how the letter d occurs within the beautiful Elven tongues.

I'm a fair "newbie" with regard the script Tengwar ... but in any event, what I mean by (-ch-) not Quenya, is that this is a" tip-off" consonant cluster of sorts ... ie the cluster does not appear -ch- in Quenya as it does in Sindarin. Interestingly Quenya does contain a sound like German "ich-laut"*, spelt hy by Tolkien, for one example.

And yes "Andúril" is given a bit of a tricky gloss :) Cheers~

[Inoldonil]

Well met indeed. I am not really a linguist, so my interest in Middle-earth languages comes rather from a profound sense of wonder than anything else. They sound so beautiful, when you can speak them. Recently I've read enough to tell the difference (obviously only in most cases) between Sindarin and Quenya, and I have developed a taste for the latter. Maybe that means I should start reading up on Finnish, I don't know.

Actually I didn't know that about Hravan. I don't recollect having heard the name before. Or I would guess 'the wild' was, but I didn't understand Hravan. I bet it was funny for smarter people!

Tengwar of course, although made in Valinor and naturally used for Quenya, was invented for the uses of all tongues as they were needed, and so included tengwar with values Quenya did not use, and one tengwa could have different values depending on the needs of the language. But the way in which the values of the tengwar are introduced to you in Appendix E II, you first get a glimpse of mostly Sindarin values, or non-Quenya values, and then in a Note you are given the Quenya ones where they differed, and 'ch' is not changed as d, b, j and gw are, for example.

One of the things I'm sometimes thrown off about is Tolkien's inconsistent use of the letter 'k', which is supposed to be drawn from other than Elvish languages.

[easterlinge]

That's odd.... I didn't attempt any HTML?

Anyway, about "Romenadan".... I think that's correct Sindarin but wrong Quenya... :)

The Quenya for Easterling being "Hyarmenatani".

And using Inoldonil's "ner", it would be "Hyarmenner", and the Sindarin form is..... uhhh.... "Romennor"? Or "Romender"?

But heck, I think I like the sound of Sindarin even better than Quenya. Compare the childish sounding "Nunatani" with the solid, manly-sounding "Dunadan".

If only those Noldor would stop behaving like spoilt brats... (sorry Inoldonil "Friend of the Noldor" :) )

Hail Thingol King of Doriath!

[Inoldonil]

'Romen' is Quenya. Rhun is Sindarin. 'Hyarmen' meant South. So Eastman would be Romenatan (pl. Romenatani) or Romenner, pl. Romenneri.

I think the Sindarin form of Romenner would by Rhundir (dir is 'man', not der)

[easterlinge]

Hyarmen meant "south".

OOooops.

[Lord Xanthyz]

I spend a little time getting prepared to move, then I come back and I got my answer=)

Now I have just one more question...
Is there a better "dictionary" for the Elven langauges (Sindarin, Quenya, any others) than the one in the back of Silmarillion?

[Inoldonil]

Oh yeah. All online stuff. Before I give you anything though, do not buy The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth by Ruth S. Noel. Bad guide.

I really like Helge Fauskanger's
Ardalambion (http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/)

[webwizard333]

I never knew you could get books about the Tolkien language. Reminds me of the guy I saw on TV who made up a whole language for the movie Atlantis.

[Lord Xanthyz]

So 'flame' in Sindarin was lach?

Actually, Inoldonil, lhach is leaping flame according to the back of the Silmarillion if my memory serves me correctly...

Just HAD to make sure you realized that "h" was in there:)

[cian]

According to David Salo (the best Sindarist I know of and was consulted for the movie) the Silmarillion entry "lhach" may be an error ... attested Sindarin example "Lachend" shows no initial lh- in any event, and would not be a case showing lenition.

[Findarato Ingoldo]

You said that Ingoldo was the mother name of Finarfin. I was under the impression that it was the mother name of Finrod. Could be wrong, but I was sure I saw that somewhere.

[Lord Xanthyz]

Hmmm....I was to come back with evidence against what you said about lhach being mispelled, but when I went to find another word that dropped a letter like that, I couldn't find one.:P

So now in my mind it is a POSSIBILITY is was mispelled;)

[cian]

Findarato, the fuller text can be found in "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" note 30, but here's a part re. "Ingoldo":

"... It was the mother-name of Arafinwë [Finarfin], and like the name Arakáno 'High chieftain' that Indis gave to Nolofinwë [Fingolfin] was held to be 'prophetic'. Eärwen gave this name [Ingoldo] to her eldest child Artafindë (Finrod), and by it he was usually called by his brothers and sister ..."

Anyway, as I say the fuller explanation is in PoMe. Cheers~

[Inoldonil]

Don't think either, Findarato, that because of this quote your name ought to be Artafindë, that was just the purer Quenya version, 'Findarato' is Telerin in form, Finrod's mother's people.