The Valar

[Sister Golden Hair]

We all know that the Elves die not until the world dies. Men go beyond. What about the Valar? Do they die when the world dies?

[Earendilyon]

According to the higly disputed Second Prophesy of Mandos, in the end, the Valar will tire. Then the end will come: Morgoth will re-enter Arda, he will be beaten, and Eru will make all things anew.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

Valar can't die. But eventually they will weary of their guard over the world. That's when Melkor will return. But they won't die. They'll still be needed for the next Music. Melkor will, though. At the hands(and blades)of Tulkas, Eonwe and a reincarnated Turin.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Is this then, Arda Remade that Finrod spoke to Andreth about? Alot of it was speculation on his part, but I wonder how accurate was he?

[Inoldonil]

Admiral, that's entirely untrue. That's the old mythology, where Turin becomes a Vala. In the later version Turin does return for the Last Battle - the Last Battle of the Wars of Beleriand, in which he slays Ancalagon, obviously contradicting the earlier texts where Earendil does him in.

[Lalaith]

Thought the Valar would go back to Eru at the end of all days and create a new world.

[Arien the Maia]

Okay here's a question...the elves die not untill the world dies...is this because they naturally have a hroa and the valar are naturally don't? That would make since seeing as how the elvish fea finds that existing without the hroa as revolting...I got that from Morgoth's ring....I don't think that Eru would just let the elves not exist after Morgoth is destroyed...I don't know I am confused:confused: any thoughts out there?

[Artanis]

I think so too, Lalaith. When Eru offered the Valar to enter into the world, they also knew that if they chose to do so they would be bound to the circles of the world until the world ended.

According to Myths Transformed, the Valar will eventually become weary of their task of guarding the world. They would indeed envy Men, who by the gift of Eru were free to leave the world after death.

Edit. Old thread revived. Go Lalaith!

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Artanis
Old thread revived. Go Lalaith!
My God, Lalaith is the first one to post anything in this thread since 2001!

A question, if the Valar can't die, can they still be killed/murdered/assassinated? The elves are immortal, but they can still be killed, while men die whatever they do.

[Nacko]

What about Tom Bombadil? I know it tells that he was at the beggining, and when fell the world would end, does that have anything to do with it?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Nacko
What about Tom Bombadil? I know it tells that he was at the beggining, and when fell the world would end, does that have anything to do with it?

I think that Tom is a Maia and therefore subject to the same fate as any of the Ainur be it Vala or Maia.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Jonathan
A question, if the Valar can't die, can they still be killed/murdered/assassinated? The elves are immortal, but they can still be killed, while men die whatever they do. Their bodies can be destroyed, but that's not equal to death since the Valar in origin are purely spiritual beings. I think though, that some of them may be more attached to their physical shape than others, and to them a destruction of the body would be more harmful than to the others.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Artanis
Their bodies can be destroyed, but that's not equal to death since the Valar in origin are purely spiritual beings. I think though, that some of them may be more attached to their physical shape than others, and to them a destruction of the body would be more harmful than to the others.

Wasn't that what kind of happened to Melkor? He used his body so much that eventually he could never have any other shape....

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I think that Tom is a Maia and therefore subject to the same fate as any of the Ainur be it Vala or Maia.

hmm well do we really want to get into a What Is Tom Bombadil discussion here? ;)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
hmm well do we really want to get into a What Is Tom Bombadil discussion here? ;) I was merely replying to a statement that Nacko posted earlier:)

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I was merely replying to a statement that Nacko posted earlier:)

Its ok Im joking. :p I just know when Tom Bombadil comes up people get fiesty. And somehow I usually end up in a straight jacket with terms like "lunatic!", "what are you talking about!" and "thats rediculous!" flying in my direction. So quick before the moderator notices! ;) *looking around sheepishly for Sister GH*

[Sister Golden Hair]

So quick before the moderator notices! *looking around sheepishly for Sister GH*I'm watching Rex, I'm watching.:D

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Its ok Im joking. :p I just know when Tom Bombadil comes up people get fiesty. And somehow I usually end up in a straight jacket with terms like "lunatic!", "what are you talking about!" and "thats rediculous!" flying in my direction. So quick before the moderator notices! ;) *looking around sheepishly for Sister GH*

lol :D I know what you mean!

[Arien the Maia]

Okay, here's something that I think is interesing about Aule....2 of his Maiar rebelled...one (Sauron) became a servant of Melkor and the other(Saruman) a servant of Sauron...Aule also fell into folly when he became "impatient" and devised the Dwarves...although he repented...any thoughts on this?

[Lalaith]

Edit. Old thread revived. Go Lalaith!
Actually I noticed that the last post was from 2001 when I already had posted the message. hahaha
Their bodies can be destroyed, but that's not equal to death since the Valar in origin are purely spiritual beings. I think though, that some of them may be more attached to their physical shape than others, and to them a destruction of the body would be more harmful than to the others.
Is that the reason why they did not kill Melkor. Or was that just an ethic point?
Okay, here's something that I think is interesing about Aule....2 of his Maiar rebelled...one (Sauron) became a servant of Melkor and the other(Saruman) a servant of Sauron...Aule also fell into folly when he became "impatient" and devised the Dwarves...although he repented...any thoughts on this?
Maybe Aule was more tempted with force than the others but not as much as Melkor and in some way he had his temptation under controll.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Maybe Aule was more tempted with force than the others but not as much as Melkor and in some way he had his temptation under controll.

I just thought of something else too...the Noldor were much loved by Aule and look at what most of them did....very interesting:D

[Arien the Maia]

Here's something that I've been a tad confused about....when Luthien sang before Morgoth, he started devising a new plan. Doesn't it say in the Sil that lust overcame him? :confused: Did he mean to take Luthien for himself as a sort of "concubine"?

[Lalaith]

Yuk
What a disgusting imagination.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Here's something that I've been a tad confused about....when Luthien sang before Morgoth, he started devising a new plan. Doesn't it say in the Sil that lust overcame him? :confused: Did he mean to take Luthien for himself as a sort of "concubine"? From the Silmarillion. Of Beren and Luthien. Chapter 19. Houghton Mifflin edition. 1977.

but Luthien was stripped of her disguise by the will of Morgoth, and he bent his gaze upon her. She was not daunted by his eyes; and she named her own name, and offered her service to sing before him, after the manner of a minstrel. Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that yet had come into his heart since he had fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for a while, and taking secret pleasure in his thought. Then suddenly she eluded his sight, and out of the shadow began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listened perforce; and a blindness came upon him, as his eyes roamed to and fro, seeking her.I think he had greater plans than just taking her for himself, but what his plan was is not told. It must have been horrific though for it to be darker than any that had come into his thought since leaving Valinor. Since it says that he was beguiled by his own malice, then there was no need I guess for Tolkien to explain further because his plan never came to be.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Since the valar and mair involved in making Arda put portions of their existance into their cration, I would predict that they are going to be rather devestated when sun turn into a red giant and destroys the solar system.

[Artanis]

If Morgoth had succeded in capturing Luthien, he would have had a terrible weapon against Doriath.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Since the valar and mair involved in making Arda put portions of their existance into their cration, I would predict that they are going to be rather devestated when sun turn into a red giant and destroys the solar system.

If it does then it was in their plan all along. Remember they created the sun and the moon.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Artanis
If Morgoth had succeded in capturing Luthien, he would have had a terrible weapon against Doriath.

How would he have used such a weapon?

[Sister Golden Hair]

This makes me think of the discussion going on in the M-e forum about Hurin. If Morgoth had captured Luthien, would she have succumbed. Hurin didn't, and afterall, Luthien was much more powerful.

[Lalaith]

Whit Luthien captured, Morgoth would have forced Thingol to do things which would be no good for anyboy at all.
Thingol would want to help Luthien and in the end it would all be only worse.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Whit Luthien captured, Morgoth would have forced Thingol to do things which would be no good for anyboy at all.
Thingol would want to help Luthien and in the end it would all be only worse. I am not so sure that Luthien would remain a prisoner for long. Look at all of her great escapes. All she has to do is lull Angband to sleep again.

Also, don't forget that her mother was a Maia, and Morgoth would be taking a big chance trying to imprison Luthien and using her to overthrow Doriath. He wouldn't easily succeed I don't think.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
How would he have used such a weapon? He could have threatened to do her ill, and by that gained power over Thingol. That could have been his plan, aside from his freeling of lust.

[Arien the Maia]

I think he was planning on taking her for his "wife" and then having a child by her...sort of an "anit-Christ" figure.

[Lalaith]

If two powerful characters - one representing all good and one all evil - have a child, this child will maybe be more powerful than the parents in common. With the right education it could become the strongest warrior for the good .... or for the bad.

[Wayfarer]

In the Lays of Beleriand, morgoth elucidates on what he was going to do with here: Rape and Murder.


As for
If two powerful characters - one representing all good and one all evil - have a child, this child will maybe be more powerful than the parents in common.

Actually, The child of two exceptional parents will tend towards the genetic mean.

[Lalaith]

Actually, The child of two exceptional parents will tend towards the genetic mean.
And what would be the genetic mean?