The Ring Revealed at Osgiliath!

[Turgon]

Did anyone notice how PJ screwed up the story by revealing the ring at Osgiliath?

I must admit I didn’t notice it either and must give credit where do: Trycelle @ Ringzone.net

Trycelle@Ringzone.net
Does this seem a slight oversight on the part of PJ? Despite the many deviations from the book that appear in movie this seems the most egregious. At the Council of Elrond three choices were offered for consideration.
1. The Ring should be hidden from Sauron.
2. The Ring should be destroyed.
3. The Ring should be used to fight Sauron.

The last was put forth by Boromir and rejected by the Council. The first would only postpone the day until the Ring would find its Master again. Finally, the second, as the book states, "Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning."

And thus, the charge is laid upon Frodo by Elrond to neither speak of this thing to any not of the Council or Fellowship nor to deliver it to any hand of the Enemy. The last sight any of the Enemy has of the Ring is at Weathertop and from there Frodo is chased to Rivendell. From the book after the fall of Isengard, Pippin looks into the palantir and in the coming days, Aragorn will also challenge Sauron for control.
All of this draws the thought and will of Sauron away from his borders and allow Frodo and Sam their slim chance to make their way to Mt. Doom. Now, that appears for naught, Sauron knows exactly where the Ring is and who holds it. What will it matter now if Pippin looks, or Aragorn challenges via the palantir. He won't consider Pippin the bearer of the Ring and Aragorn is merely a pretender without the Ring, and thus Sauron has nothing to fear of them. Any stroke of Sauron will fall swift and hard at Osgiliath and it is unlikely any could escape it. At the very least, his eyes will be close about his borders and his minions will be on their toes.
This just seems to go beyond explanation. If you have one, PJ, we'd sure like to hear it.

So what do all you think of this?

[LuthienTinuviel]

im not really sure what that article was hitting at.

is it something like if frodo reveals the ring in ithilien that sauron's eye will imediatly find it?

i don't think that this is the case, as he DOES have other things to worry about, being dark lord and all, than to turn every ounce of his attention to something being flashed about. remember, Sauron doesn't consider the fact that someone will try to destroy the ring until frodo claims it at orodriun (sp?) so sauron will be seeking father and farther out from mordor, and not too much on the lookout for two tiny


argh my sister had to get online, and now ive lost my thought train. so there are my quite incomplete thoughts on the matter.

[azalea]

I agree. I think the whole theme of his eye being focused elsewhere must be abandoned, because by showing that Nazgul the ring, Frodo shows Sauron where it is, so PJ must deal w/ it differently in RotK.

[Turgon]

Exactly Azalea! I can’t wait to see what PJ does with this, if he does anything. The ring has been revealed and as everyone knows Sauron is desperately searching for it because when he puts it on he will return to his original strength (at the time of the Last Alliance). I mean there is a very large army stationed just up the road where Sam and Frodo are headed, wouldn’t they be on the look out and ambush them. Sauron would cease and desist and all battle fronts just to get the ring because the ring is victory!

I hope PJ didn’t forget the main purpose of these books, the ring! Because from watching the Two Towers I kind of got that feeling. The ring seemed to be playing second fiddle to a battle that wasn’t supposed to be so grand.

[olsonm]

Why would Sauron know Frodo is heading for Mordor? All he knows is that he was spotted in Osgilliath: in the company of Gondorians.

[azalea]

Yeah, that makes sense. But PJ will still have to deal with it differently, because Sauron's supposed to see Pippin in the Palantir, so his eye would be fixed on him, and it wouldn't make sense that "the halfling" would be in Osgiliath one day, then racing toward Gondor with Gandalf the next from the other direction! (Or at least in Isengard) I don't know, it's just something that occured to me, too. It'll probably just be glossed over.

[olsonm]

I agree azalea, I just don't think PJ has to worry about Sauron knowing Frodo is heading to Mordor is all.

[Ben]

Why didn't the Nazgul just chase after him? This whole bit strains belief.

[Wayfarer]

The winged creature could have just plucked him off the wall and CARRIED him back to Sauron.

[olsonm]

He didn't need to: Frodo was giving him the Ring. He trusted to his power of fear to keep the others from interfering. But Sam's devotion to Frodo was greater than that fear.

[Wayfarer]

It wasn't sam that shot that arrow, was it? ;)

[Lefty Scaevola]

When the Nazgul see the ring, it is on its way to Gondor, which is Where Sauron is already predisposed to think it will go. This will only reinforce his preoccupation with Gondor.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by azalea
Yeah, that makes sense. But PJ will still have to deal with it differently, because Sauron's supposed to see Pippin in the Palantir, so his eye would be fixed on him, and it wouldn't make sense that "the halfling" would be in Osgiliath one day, then racing toward Gondor with Gandalf the next from the other direction! (Or at least in Isengard) . Actually I think this is a deliberate replace of one for the other. The strategic significance of the scene with Pippen and the Palantir would be difficult to show without some voice over or strained coversation. Whereas seeing the ring on its way to gondor will obviously trigger a high priority reaction from Sauron, and the connection is easier to make.

[Kalimac]

>>Did anyone notice how PJ screwed up the story by revealing the ring at Osgiliath<<

No, I don't think the story is screwed up, I think the story has been changed. PJ has already stated numerous times that The Two Towers strays the most from the book . . so, it is not fair to try and use the book to explain the actions of the film. Put the book aside, and all you know about it because this movie is going to be different.

Now ask yourself why Frodo is in Osgiliath . . why would PJ (not Tolkien) make the decision to place Frodo so close to Minas Tirith . . why would the Ring be revealed? One of the reasons this is not making sense to you is that we have not yet seen the third movie. The answers to your questions about why Osgiliath and why the Ring being revealed . . can't be answered by looking at the book . . but they should be answered in the third film . . which is an entire year away. As Treebeard would say, "Don't be hasty." Your doubts and questions will be answered about Osgiliath, Sauron, the palantir, Saruman, and even ole Faramir . . will be answered. In the mean time, we can speculate why PJ decided to make this change . . and base those speculation on what we may see by the time Return of the King arrives. Cheers!

[northsuperior]

i agree. there are alot of clues given to the audience of how Sauron is going to move in the next movie.
PJ is making it ABSOLUTLEY OBVIOUS.
You have the map scene, ....it lays it all out for the viewer.
where saruon and saruman are as the threats , and who they are attacking and where Sam and Frodo are.
it even explains where Osilgilath is , in realtion to the whole thing.
AND the Fact that it is mentioned by Galadriel that Sauron knows the ring is near, and that men will be tempted by it .
ITS A TOTAL SETUP.
after the nazgul comes the audinence has to clue in that Sauron knows wher the ring bearer IS.
So when we see the ROTK the race will be on to get to Minas Tirith and take attnetion of the ring bearer.
BUT i still did not like the Faramir Osigilath stuff.

[Tar-Elendil]

PJ will do anything for a buck.. this time it included screwing over an entire literary masterpiece. was it just me or did it seem like osgiliath was recently inhabited? read the description of it in lotr.. nothing like it in the movie.. i think faramir aiding frodo the way he did in the book was crucial to the message of the story. PJ totally refashioned the character. i have no clue why he would do that. maybe because folks wanted to see more what happens with frodo and in the book most of the time hes traveling? even so.. they shouldnt have gone about it that way. ive seen interviews with PJ before. he comes off as a lotr fan for life but, in actuality, he is not.

[BeardofPants]

I'm with Lefty on this; I'm sure that PJ is using this as a feint, so that Sauron will look towards Gondor. There is no reason for Sauron to think that the hobbits are going to Mordor.

[Arathorn]

I agree with 4 of the last 5 posters regarding Sauron's PoV of where the One Ring is headed. The really interesting question is whether or not Sauron will still get a chance to see Pippin and how this will be handled next year.

As Leto II of the Dune series is fond of saying:
I love surprises.

[Turgon]

Ok some quick facts:

- Sauron released the Nazgul to search for the ‘one’ ring. He didn’t unleash his full force to hunt for the ring because he didn’t want to draw attention to it since he wasn’t really sure exactly where it was.

- Sauron now knows exactly where it is. And its half way between Gondor and Mordor.

- We can’t follow the book because Jackson changed so much of it so we have to follow the movie, so bare with me; it’s going to get kind of confusing, PJ isn’t a great screenwriter (with story depth), as you will see.

(((This is the movie version)))
Ok the ring is on the east side of the river; the side closest to Mordor. This is proved by the fact that the bridge is out and there is nowhere to cross for a hundred miles in either direction, Faramir was on the east side of the river (Henneth Annun) and walked straight into Osgiliath. Also Frodo and Sam walk out of Osgiliath towards Mordor, this would have been impossible if Frodo and Sam were on the West side and Mordor occupied the east side (as you can see PJs scene setting makes no sense). So you ask the question ‘why the hell did Gondor blow the bridge if Saurons forces already hold the west side and this would mean the Gondorians would be trapped on the east side of the river?’ Meaning the ring is in no way going to Gondor!!!

Ok does that make sense because honestly PJ is confusing the hell out of me! How did Saurons forces take the west side and Gondors hold the east? ERRRR, so confusing! :confused:

Now we know (in the movie version) that Faramir’s forces are trapped on the east side of the river with virtually no hope to getting to the other side; getting to Gondor. This would most certainly mean that Faramir’s forces were also completely surrounded on all sides since they are on the east side of the river (enemy territory). But for now lets just play PJs game and pretend that Saurons forces are only on the west side of the river because that can explain why Sam and Frodo walked out of Osgiliath with no trouble at all.

Some more facts:

- So now Sauron also knows that the ring is in no way going to Gondor (this is so freaking funny how bad PJ did this scene). The ring is trapped on the east side of the river within easy grasp of Saurons mighty army and obviously the army stationed (led by the Witch-King) at Minas Morgul is not the one on the west side of the river because Faramirs forces would been obliterated if they encountered it (the army that leaves Minas Morgul is the main driving force in the battle for the White City and thus should have no problem wiping up a small group of soldiers such as Faramirs and the town guard of Osgiliath).

- Sauron is also very wise, as wise or even wiser than Galadriel. He would surely now see why the fellowship was sent out, to destroy the ring in the place where it was forged. Why else would they be so close to Mordor, and if they were headed to Minas Tirith why are they in Osgiliath since this puts the to far east and at risk? Also no one can wield it, so why are they bringing it to Gondor? The only logical thing is that they are passing through Gondor to get to Mordor to destroy it. You forget how wise Sauron is, you can't play him for a fool.

I hope you understand what I’m saying because it’s tough explaining a scene that has no depth (depth is something Tolkien is famous for and obviously PJ doesn’t care for it). But like someone said above, ‘we can’t pick a part a story two-thirds told, we must wait for the last part to see if PJ can explain what we believe is a fault’.

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by Turgon
Ok some quick facts:

- Sauron released the Nazgul to search for the ‘one’ ring. He didn’t unleash his full force to hunt for the ring because he didn’t want to draw attention to it since he wasn’t really sure exactly where it was.

- Sauron now knows exactly where it is. And its half way between Gondor and Mordor.


I agree.


(((This is the movie version)))
Ok the ring is on the east side of the river; the side closest to Mordor. This is proved by the fact that the bridge is out and there is nowhere to cross for a hundred miles in either direction, Faramir was on the east side of the river (Henneth Annun) and walked straight into Osgiliath. Also Frodo and Sam walk out of Osgiliath towards Mordor, this would have been impossible if Frodo and Sam were on the West side and Mordor occupied the east side (as you can see PJs scene setting makes no sense). So you ask the question ‘why the hell did Gondor blow the bridge if Saurons forces already hold the west side and this would mean the Gondorians would be trapped on the east side of the river?’ Meaning the ring is in no way going to Gondor!!!

Ok does that make sense because honestly PJ is confusing the hell out of me! How did Saurons forces take the west side and Gondors hold the east? ERRRR, so confusing! :confused:

Now we know (in the movie version) that Faramir’s forces are trapped on the east side of the river with virtually no hope to getting to the other side; getting to Gondor. This would most certainly mean that Faramir’s forces were also completely surrounded on all sides since they are on the east side of the river (enemy territory). But for now lets just play PJs game and pretend that Saurons forces are only on the west side of the river because that can explain why Sam and Frodo walked out of Osgiliath with no trouble at all.


I think that the scene on Osqiliath is just a minor skirmish and that Sauron's ground forces were still mostly within Mordor's north gate. Also, remember that Faramir still had to fight his way back to Minas Tirith in the 3rd volume of the books. There's still plenty of room to play around with if one is change things for the movie version.


Some more facts:

- So now Sauron also knows that the ring is in no way going to Gondor (this is so freaking funny how bad PJ did this scene). The ring is trapped on the east side of the river within easy grasp of Saurons mighty army and obviously the army stationed (led by the Witch-King) at Minas Morgul is not the one on the west side of the river because Faramirs forces would been obliterated if they encountered it (the army that leaves Minas Morgul is the main driving force in the battle for the White City and thus should have no problem wiping up a small group of soldiers such as Faramirs and the town guard of Osgiliath).


Too early to tell what happens since Minas Morgul has not been explicitly shown going out. We may need to wait for Sam, Frodo and Gollum to see them. Also, notice that the Nazgul saw Frodo (in the film) in Osgiliath and not in the caves (which is Faramir's secret hideout. All's not lost. My thinking is that the east side of the river is full of guerilla warfare on Faramir's part like the ambush they prepared for the easterlings and their Oliphaunts.


- Sauron is also very wise, as wise or even wiser than Galadriel. He would surely now see why the fellowship was sent out, to destroy the ring in the place where it was forged. Why else would they be so close to Mordor, and if they were headed to Minas Tirith why are they in Osgiliath since this puts the to far east and at risk? Also no one can wield it, so why are they bringing it to Gondor? The only logical thing is that they are passing through Gondor to get to Mordor to destroy it. You forget how wise Sauron is, you can't play him for a fool.

I hope you understand what I’m saying because it’s tough explaining a scene that has no depth (depth is something Tolkien is famous for and obviously PJ doesn’t care for it). But like someone said above, ‘we can’t pick a part a story two-thirds told, we must wait for the last part to see if PJ can explain what we believe is a fault’.

I respect your opinion on this one as well as the others but I offer another possible explanation that with all the forces at his disposal, and knowing that men had seen the One Ring, his arrogance can still be his undoing. Remember that it was pointed out that men could easily take the ring from the hobbits to try to save Minas Tirith. Men can easily be corrupted by it and, thus, be turned or fooled so that his wraiths can finally give it to him.

[markedel]

Actually it could be read differently:

There's no palantir so something has to spur Sauron to fight. In this case Sauron thinks the ring is in the possession of Gondor and he must strike before a wielder appears.

[Entlover]

I've just seen TT! Splendiferous.

No one has suggested the following: it seems to me that the Nazgul did not see the ring. Nazgul do not see well in daylight. Did anyone see it react? The way Frodo was holding it, moving his finger closer as he yielded to the hypnotic suggestion of the ring to put it on and reveal himself, and the fact that Sam tackled and stopped him barely in time, suggest to me that it was meant to be a close call, but that the ring was not actually revealed.

And no one said anything about, "Now Sauron will know just where we are" -- which surely would have come up if they thought it had been revealed. PJ should have done something like have Sam say, That was a close call, good thing Nazgul can't see in bright light . . . but he didn't so it's left open to speculation. (I guess Sam was busy trying to stay alive.)

But I still think the ring was not spotted.

[ShrikeArghast]

I thought the entire 'revealing of the ring' at Osgiliath was just a poor move by Peter Jackson trying to make improvements to an already solid story--and a failed try at that.

That whole 'extended bout with Faramir' ruins 3 things in Return of the King which were once so balanced, and will now be in need of further fixing and changes in order for the story to be repaired.

-First, and most obviously, is the revealing of the ring at Osgiliath. In the books, Sauron believes that Merry and Pippin are the two ringbearers, and that they somehow slipped under his nose in Isenguard, but that the two are still there, somewhere in or around Rohan. Thusly, his eye is turned Northwest when it should be really gazing Southwest, where Frodo and Sam are slipping into Mordor. Now that 'allowance' for the two to just sneak in is destroyed. Sauron, being the crafty evil genius that he was intended to be, would quickly upgrade the guard at every eastern pass-- ESPECIALLY Cirith Ungol. Once Frodo was caputred, I very much doubt that the confusion over his identity that resulted in the books would happen. Sauron's minions would know who and what they were looking for, and as soon as the ring wasn't found on Frodo, they would conclude that Samwise was still out there, and would have begun abitiously searching for him. In short, PJ has so seriously altered the story that by all rights he damns Frodo's quest to fail. Frodo will, of course, miraculously avoid such a fate, but PJ really messed things up royally with this.

-Secondly is that The Two Towers was intended to end quite sourly for the forces of good, with the bitter/sweet victory at Isenguard but Frodo's apparent slaying at the claws of Ungoliant's cursed broodling in the pass at Cirith Ungol. By extending the Faramir/Frodo sequence, PJ held over the battle in the pass until the next movie, erasing what would have been plenty of time for Frodo to be stung and carried off, leaving the audience to worry over Frodo's apparent demise for the next year. I don't for a second buy off on PJ being some kind of an artistic genius. I believe he's a fair director at best, who obviously has little-to-no comprehension of the tale he is trying to tell.

-Finally, in the books Faramir comprehends Boramir's failure to deal with the ring's power almost immediately, and only suffers from temptation for a few seconds. He sppears to be--and rightly so--a really great guy, someone quite the match for the elegant Eowyn. By extending Faramir's lust for the ring into something that was only stopped by Frodo's ridiculous trance-like state (which, in of itself, just paints Frodo to be an even bigger weakling than he already was), PJ has made the second son of Denathor out to be just as easily corrupted as his brother. For shame, PJ, Faramir was a better man than that.

Overall I liked The Two Towers, but only the parts involving the divided fellowship and the brief sequences concerning Gollum. Everything that included Elijah Wood was immediately tainted by the guy's horrible acting abilities, and further spoiled by PJ's corruption of Tolkien's work. Too bad the character that is supposed to be our hero had to have his storyline ruined by stupid things like that.

[akutach]

Turgon,

That's very thorough.

Allow me to point out that it's very unfair to criticize PJ's capacity for deep thought. Communication is an inherently two sided affair. Unfortunately, the bulk of the viewers are not as savvy to difficulties of crossing the Great River as you are and they probably assume some boats are involved. If PJ assumes throughout the two movies that everyone picks up on everything, and shoots the films accordingly, then there are about million people in the world who could really follow what's going on and why.

Personally I found the map scene a bit insulting as well as clumsy in its execution, but some people need a very helping hand. It must be assumed that thse people will not to sweat the details too much, and that they realize that 1) Faramir's not such a bad guy after all, and 2) Frodo's on his way while 3) Sauron knows where the ring is on that day.

Enjoy the 95% that is fantastic. Grin an bear the annoying 5% and consider that those moments are like commercials - they make the finances of the film work.

ShrikeArghast, I agree completely except I rather have enjoyed Elijah Wood.

[Dunadan]

This is an interesting discussion. I agree that the map scene was very clumsy, and the cross-Anduin teleportation service deeply suspect. ;) If anything, though, there should have been a map bit earlier on; to non-afficionados it was very confusing what was going on.

I would be really disappointed if that ridiculous scene was a substitute for Pippin looking into the Palantir. However, there's still room for that in ROTK; I reckon it was just to remind the multiplex cattle that the ring was spooky and scary and an excuse to have some more Nazgul in.

The Osgiliath scene could've been great; did not the Nazgul attack the bridges in the book? How cool would it been to have had street fighting between Dunedain of Gondor and the Nazgul? However, they copped out. I also think that they didn't do Faramir's eventual rejection of the Ring very well. And I'm getting sick of seeing the same mournful look on Frodo's face.

cheers

d.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Entlover
I've just seen TT! Splendiferous.

No one has suggested the following: it seems to me that the Nazgul did not see the ring. Nazgul do not see well in daylight. Did anyone see it react? The way Frodo was holding it, moving his finger closer as he yielded to the hypnotic suggestion of the ring to put it on and reveal himself, and the fact that Sam tackled and stopped him barely in time, suggest to me that it was meant to be a close call, but that the ring was not actually revealed.

But wait I thought the Nazgul could basically smell the presence of the ring basically. They are controlled by the ring(s) basically and in many ways its the source of their evil power so detecting it would be simple for them. Thats why they are drawn to the hobbits when they are hiding under the tree because they sense the ring is around somewhere but they arent totally sure. So if someone is standing there holding it in their outsretched arms for them to take Im SURE they detected it.

Now heres where i REALLY agree that this is an unforgivable lapse on the part of Jackson. Lets think like Sauron for a moment shall we. Sauron basically can see (feel?) what his nazgul see or feel so as SOON as the nazgul "saw" the ring so did sauron. Now if you are Sauron and you see the ring is basically on the outer borders of Mordor what do you do? well you INSTINTLY order ALL your nazgul to hightail it over there ALL of them and go after that hobbit or anyone who was in the area. Kill everything. Find the ring. Its THERE NOW! You immediatly give orders for every orc and evil beasty to drop whatever they are doing and swarm down on that tiny city like a hail storm that never ends. Now how long do you think it takes the nazgul to fly at full speed from their city in mordor to Osgilliath (sp?). 5 minutes? 10? Whatever they will be there before Frodo and gang can get out of town and they will find it and game over people. Game over.

MAYBE if after Frodo had showed the ring all the characters had freaked out and been like "oh &@^%!!! We have to get out of here now!!! Quick!!! Run!!! Theyve seen it!!" But they didnt. They just acted like ok that was fun now lets get back into our little adventure. Wee. So I have a feeling that bit will just be glossed over in the third movie as if it was a close call but now its all forgotten. Eeesh.

Anyway sorry. Ive wanted to get that off my chest for a month now. ;)

[Jonathan]

well you INSTINTLY order ALL your nazgul to hightail it over there ALL of them and go after that hobbit or anyone who was in the area.

The only hope Frodo has after revealing the Ring, is that Sauron can't in his wildest fantasies imagine that Frodo is going to Mt. Doom to destroy the Ring.
So if the Nazgûls don't find him and Sam immediately, they should be able to continue their journey relatively safely.

[Black Breathalizer]

The Scene: A classroom at the prestigious Tolkien Academy where Tolkien Scholar, Professor Black Breathalizer is teaching.

Professor BB: Okay, class, today’s first question: Was the ring “seen� by the Nazgul in the TTT movie?

Entlover: It seems to me that the Nazgul did not see the ring. Nazgul do not see well in daylight. Did anyone see it react? The way Frodo was holding it, moving his finger closer as he yielded to the hypnotic suggestion of the ring to put it on and reveal himself, and the fact that Sam tackled and stopped him barely in time, suggest to me that it was meant to be a close call, but that the ring was not actually revealed.

Professor BB: Excellent, Entlover. You are CORRECT!

(Surprised gasps from the other students.)

Insidious Rex: But wait I thought the Nazgul could basically smell the presence of the ring basically. They are controlled by the ring(s) basically and in many ways its the source of their evil power so detecting it would be simple for them. That’s why they are drawn to the hobbits when they are hiding under the tree because they sense the ring is around somewhere but they aren’t totally sure. So if someone is standing there holding it in their outstretched arms for them to take I’m SURE they detected it.

Professor BB: Sorry IR. But the movie’s internal logic is that the Nazgul detect the presence of the ring only when it is worn. If it were otherwise, then the Nazgul WOULD have grabbed Frodo underneath the big tree root and WOULDN’T have stabbed him on Weathertop.

(A magic moment of enlightenment as the class begins to understand.)

Professor BB: Let’s assume that the Nazgul “felt� the ring in Osgiliath for this sake of our next discussion. Using the logic of the movies, is there anything wrong with that?

Insidious Rex: YES!!! Sauron basically can see what his Nazgul see or feel so as SOON as the Nazgul "saw" the ring so did sauron. Now if you are Sauron and you see the ring is basically on the outer borders of Mordor what do you do? Well you INSTANTLY order ALL your nazgul to hightail it over there ALL of them and go after that hobbit or anyone who was in the area. Kill everything. Find the ring. It’s THERE NOW!

Professor BB: You are on the right track, Insidious. But your geography is wrong. Osgiliath is in Gondor. Having Sauron believe the ring is in Gondor enhances the movie’s plot instead of detracting from it. In the book, we are led to believe that Sauron fears Gondor and fears the ring has gone there. Based on the movie’s logic, if Sauron is told by his Nazgul Captain that the ring was “sensed� in Osgiliath, then it gives the audience an understanding of why the Dark Lord would immediately send -- as you mentioned -- an all-out attack against Gondor. In fact, this will be shown in ROTK. We are told by Tolkien that the success of the Ringbearer’s quest depends upon Sauron thinking anyone of might who possesses the ring would naturally want to USE IT against him. Since the ring was sensed in a battle for Osiligiath, it only supports the belief that the ring is being used by the Lords of the West as an instrument of war against him.

Class: (in unison) Oooooooooooooooooh!!!

(Another magic moment of enlightenment.) :)

********
Disclaimer: Please hold your flames. This post is meant in fun using real quotes. No offense whatsoever was intended to the posters mentioned.

[BeardofPants]

And this furthered the discussion, how? :rolleyes:

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
And this furthered the discussion, how? :rolleyes: It requires reading to understand, BoP. :rolleyes:

[Turgon]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
And this furthered the discussion, how? :rolleyes:

LOL. I asked my self the same question when I read BB post.

[Jonathan]

You are on the right track, Insidious. But your geography is wrong. Osgiliath is in Gondor

No, Insidious Rex's geography is completely right, Osgiliath IS on the outer borders of Mordor. One could say that Osgiliath is in Gondor (the city has been the capital, duh), but the city is in the lands that the Gondorians call Ithilien, right outside of Mordor. So Ithilien and Osgiliath is on the outer boarder of Mordor. You can't say it's not.

But the movie’s internal logic is that the Nazgul detect the presence of the ring only when it is worn. If it were otherwise, then the Nazgul WOULD have grabbed Frodo underneath the big tree root and WOULDN’T have stabbed him on Weathertop.

Well, the Nazgûl couldn't see the Ring, only feel it's presence. Since Frodo didn't wear the Ring in Osgiliath, the Nazgûl wasn't sure if the Ring was there or not.
BUT you can read in the books that the animals that the Nazgûls used had GREAT eyesight. One must assume that this goes for the movie as well. That "dinosaur" MUST have seen the ring, even though the Nazgûl didn't.

So I think that Insidious Rex is more right than Professor BB :D

[Black Breathalizer]

Thank you, Jonathan, from saving this thread from another attack from the bubble gum-popping crowd. It was my fault for trying to have fun with the usual quote/answer approach.

Originally posted by Jonathan
No, Insidious Rex's geography is completely right, Osgiliath IS on the outer borders of Mordor. One could say that Osgiliath is in Gondor (the city has been the capital, duh), but the city is in the lands that the Gondorians call Ithilien, right outside of Mordor. So Ithilien and Osgiliath is on the outer boarder of Mordor. You can't say it's not.Ithilien is part of Gondor too. Yes, part of it has been overrun by Mordorian orcs, but soliders of Gondor still occupy it. The true border of Mordor is far from Osgiliath. It could be argued that the tower of Cirith Ungol is the true border into the land of Mordor.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer


Ithilien is part of Gondor too. Yes, part of it has been overrun by Mordorian orcs, but soliders of Gondor still occupy it. The true border of Mordor is far from Osgiliath. It could be argued that the tower of Cirith Ungol is the true border into the land of Mordor.

wel thats what it was there for. But At the time of Lord of the rings All of illithen was pretty disbuted area both would lay a claim to it.

The eastern side of Osgiliath (which is built of opersite sides of the great river) was held by the enemy and that been the only major town its fair to say all lands on the eastern side of the Aundian were the enemys

[Insidious Rex]

cocky know-it-all student Insidious Rex stands back up to question the Professor some more:

[QUOTE]...Was the ring “seen� by the Nazgul in the TTT movie? ......It seems to me that the Nazgul did not see the ring. Nazgul do not see well in daylight. Did anyone see it react? The way Frodo was holding it, moving his finger closer as he yielded to the hypnotic suggestion of the ring to put it on and reveal himself...

ok wait wait wasnt Frodo holding the ring OUT TOWARD the Nazgul? Or am I confusing myself. And if the Nazgul had no idea that the ring was there being held out before him why was it carefully stearing its flying stead toward Frodo ever so carefully as if to pluck something of a very delicate nature. If it wanted to snag Frodo himself would he have not just swooped down and snatched him like a bail of hay?

Professor BB: Sorry IR. But the movie’s internal logic is that the Nazgul detect the presence of the ring only when it is worn. If it were otherwise, then the Nazgul WOULD have grabbed Frodo underneath the big tree root

But why did the Nazgul stop at all there? And why was he sniffing around as if he smelled... something familiar? Yes when its worn its like an alarm call to the Nazgul but even when its off theres still some attraction there is how they made it seem. And that would only make sense since these former humans were corrupted and made undead by the rings themselves. And THIS ring controlled them all.

and WOULDN’T have stabbed him on Weathertop.

Why not?

Professor BB: Let’s assume that the Nazgul “felt� the ring in Osgiliath for this sake of our next discussion. Using the logic of the movies, is there anything wrong with that?

Insidious Rex: YES!!! Sauron basically can see what his Nazgul see or feel so as SOON as the Nazgul "saw" the ring so did sauron. Now if you are Sauron and you see the ring is basically on the outer borders of Mordor what do you do? Well you INSTANTLY order ALL your nazgul to hightail it over there ALL of them and go after that hobbit or anyone who was in the area. Kill everything. Find the ring. It’s THERE NOW!

Professor BB: You are on the right track, Insidious. But your geography is wrong. Osgiliath is in Gondor. Having Sauron believe the ring is in Gondor enhances the movie’s plot instead of detracting from it. In the book, we are led to believe that Sauron fears Gondor and fears the ring has gone there. Based on the movie’s logic, if Sauron is told by his Nazgul Captain that the ring was “sensed� in Osgiliath, then it gives the audience an understanding of why the Dark Lord would immediately send -- as you mentioned -- an all-out attack against Gondor. In fact, this will be shown in ROTK. We are told by Tolkien that the success of the Ringbearer’s quest depends upon Sauron thinking anyone of might who possesses the ring would naturally want to USE IT against him. Since the ring was sensed in a battle for Osiligiath, it only supports the belief that the ring is being used by the Lords of the West as an instrument of war against him.

But Proff theres the underlying point of the speed of the Nazgul and how long it would take to get from wherever they were (Im thinking most were in or around Mordor at the farthest) to that point in Osgiliath (which may be part of Gondor but its closer to Minas Morgul then to anything else). According to the maps Ive looked it it would have been a real short flight at top speed. And whether Sauron thinks men are going to use it against him or not he now knows its THERE very close so when the nazgul get the word their mission is clear. And as I see it its game over. But Jonathan makes a good point. And if they had realized the seriousness of what just happened and they flipped out and gotten out of town as fast as possible then MAYBE they would have slipped by the nazgul. Maybe... But they didnt. They acted like it was no problem at all. Which gave me cramps when i saw it.

********
Insidious sits back down and awaits the proffesor's resonse. oh and hey how does one get an A in this course?

[Jonathan]

Just a little point:
Ithilien and Osgiliath is in Gondor, right next to Mordor. Therefore, Osgiliath is on the outer borders of Mordor.
Cirith Ungol is in Mordor, right next to Gondor. Therefore, Cirith Ungol is on the outer borders of Gondor.

This is how I see things :D

[Black Breathalizer]

Hey, Insidious Rex, of course I'd give you an A...for effort. ;) :)

In response to your points:

Frodo DID NOT offer the ring to the Nazgul. At first glance, it looked that way. But if you watch that scene closely, you'll see that he was struggling with himself about whether to put on the ring and had the ring in front of him because it was still around his neck on the chain.

But I would agree with you that the Nazgul have a general sense of where the ring is and I would also agree that much of eastern Gondor has been overrun, including Osgiliath. But I stand by my statement.

In Sauron's mind, he would not view the knowledge that the ring had been "felt" in Osgiliath with, "Hey, I'd better watch out, the ring is in Mordor." Instead he would view it the same way the Book Sauron did: "The Lords of the West are preparing to use my ring against me."

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Just a little point:
Cirith Ungol is in Mordor, right next to Gondor. Therefore, Cirith Ungol is on the outer borders of Gondor.I understand where you're coming from. But TECHNICALLY Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul are parts of Gondor that have become occupied by Mordor. When Nazi Germany occupied parts of France during WWII, it was still considered French soil.

[Jonathan]

I didn't mean that the lands of Gondor belonged to Mordor. I meant that the eastern lands of Gondor can be seen as the western border of Mordor.
It shouldn't take long for the Nazgûls to fly from the middle of Mordor to eastern Gondor.

You understand where I come from? I am neither Nazi nor German if that is what you meant. I am a Swede and I agree that the occupied lands of France still were French. The lands where occupied, not annexed.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I didn't mean that the lands of Gondor belonged to Mordor. I meant that the eastern lands of Gondor can be seen as the western border of Mordor. It shouldn't take long for the Nazgûls to fly from the middle of Mordor to eastern Gondor.I understand what you meant. I just meant from Sauron's point of view, he wouldn't associate Osgiliath with Mordor in the same way Hitler wouldn't have viewed Paris at part of Germany. Also, Sauron feared Aragorn or Gandalf possessed his ring now. So his mindset isn't to "snatch" the ring, but to defeat the ringbearer before he gains too much power. He wouldn't fly his Nazgul to Gondor without a strong army to back them up.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Hey, Insidious Rex, of course I'd give you an A...for effort. ;) :)

Good cause I need something to balance out my C+ on my Tom Bombadil paper. ;)

In response to your points:

Frodo DID NOT offer the ring to the Nazgul. At first glance, it looked that way. But if you watch that scene closely, you'll see that he was struggling with himself about whether to put on the ring and had the ring in front of him because it was still around his neck on the chain.[B]

Hmm ok Ill take your word for it but Ill have to pay close attention to this part the third time I watch the movie. :p

[QUOTE][B]But I would agree with you that the Nazgul have a general sense of where the ring is and I would also agree that much of eastern Gondor has been overrun, including Osgiliath. But I stand by my statement.

In Sauron's mind, he would not view the knowledge that the ring had been "felt" in Osgiliath with, "Hey, I'd better watch out, the ring is in Mordor." Instead he would view it the same way the Book Sauron did: "The Lords of the West are preparing to use my ring against me."

Oh I agree basically with all points there. But as a military general you would assume the first thing he would do would be to attempt to regain the ring IMMEDIATLY since it was so close to him now. He knows of no great armies massing in Osgiliath but he does know the ring is there now. So even if they were getting ready to use the ring against him they obvisously werent ready yet. Especially since the bridge was out right? So fly Nazgul! Before it can be taken elsewhere and secure the ring while we still know where it is and while its clear they arent about to move agaisnt us with it.

[Black Breathalizer]

I don't disagree with you, Insidious Rex. In fact, this is exactly what Sauron did. But instead of only sending his Nazgul, I'm predicting he'll sent them AND an entire army against Gondor.

We'll see if my prediction is right when ROTK comes out. ;) :)

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I don't disagree with you, Insidious Rex. In fact, this is exactly what Sauron did. But instead of only sending his Nazgul, I'm predicting he'll sent them AND an entire army against Gondor.

We'll see if my prediction is right when ROTK comes out. ;) :)

well that is of course what will happen in the third movie because that whole ring showing scene was already forgotten essentially before the second movie ended. which is what bothers me so much.... Now you know what I would do if I was Sauron but hey my military thinking on this may be incorrect. I mean thats probably why Sauron earns more then I do. ;)

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Black BreathalizerBut instead of only sending his Nazgul, I'm predicting he'll sent them AND an entire army against Gondor. In the book, Sauron sent his forces to Gondor after having a little "chat" with Aragorn through Saruman's PalantÃ*r. Since the heroes didn't recover the PalantÃ*r in the movie, you prediction could very well be right.
But my prediction is that in the beginning of RotK we will see how Aragorn gets his hands on and uses the PalantÃ*r. Sauron will get frightened as he did in the book, and throw everything he got at Gondor. Not to get the Ring, but to defeat Gondor as soon as possible.

[Entlover]

I think the whole scene was a bad idea on PJ's part. However, it's there now.
I don't think the pteradactyl or whatever it was would recognize the ring when it saw it, anymore than a horse would. That's not a danger.
The Nazgul may have sensed it, but it would have known a hobbit held it - which conveys what information to Sauron? What is a hobbit doing with the ring if Gandalf or Aragorn has it? Makes no sense.
I agree with Jonathan, that Aragorn better look in the palantir and chat with Sauron, to disabuse him of the notion that a hobbit has the ring if nothing else.

[Elfhelm]

Frodo DOES reveal the One Ring to Faramir. That's the only correction I have to offer the post.

But I agree with several others that Sauron will think the Ring is with Gondor and turn his eye there allowing Frodo and Sam to sneak up the back stair.

I really don't like the whole Osgiliath thing. In cinema can't Faramir just tell the Hobbits about Osgiliath and we would see pictures. My Faramir would never go against the decision of the Council of the Wise.

[Aranwe]

The Nazgul seeing Frodo with the ring isn't really a problem, if he did infact see it (poor vision in daylight). The witch-king already saw Frodo PUT ON the ring at weathertop (in both the movie and book, at night). So Gandalf hoping that Sauron seeing Pippin would help their cause is wrong - Sauron already knows that Pippin isn't carrying the ring, he would more than likely just try and find out where the ring is.

As for the ring being at Osgiliath... this actually makes more sense to me than Sauron never knowing where it is. Why would Men take the ring to Osgiliath, which is under attack, if they didn't plan to use it as a weapon against Sauron?

He would assume that the ring was taken back to Gondor by those that escaped from Osgiliath, and so would want to attack Gondor before they found out how to use the ring. It says somewhere in the books that the ring is difficult for anyone to learn to use, even someone as powerful as gandalf.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Aranwe
So Gandalf hoping that Sauron seeing Pippin would help their cause is wrong - Sauron already knows that Pippin isn't carrying the ring, he would more than likely just try and find out where the ring is.

How does he know that? All he knows is a halfling has the ring. And walla theres a halfling starring at him in the palantir. Can he tell its the wrong one?

As for the ring being at Osgiliath... this actually makes more sense to me than Sauron never knowing where it is. Why would Men take the ring to Osgiliath, which is under attack, if they didn't plan to use it as a weapon against Sauron?

Ok but the point is if he saw it at Osgiliath still with a hobbit knowing they are cut off from Gondor and knowing just how close Osgiliath is to Mordor why not IMMEDIATLY send everything down on that location in an attempt to get the ring. Certainly send ALL the nazgul because flying time is pretty brief from Minas Morgul, probably just minutes. So unless ALL the nazgul just happen to be on the other side of middle earth on some errand or something then showing the ring still in the hands of a hobbit at Osgiliath is basically giving away the game in my opinion. What we were debating about before in this thread is do the nazgul actually sense the ring or not. because if they dont then of course it would be a lot harder for them to find it again even if they are in the nieghborhood but if they do well then.... game over.

[Dunadan]

You're quite right. That, and aren't Nazgul supposed to be "drawn to the ring" at all times, "feeling its presence" (Aragorn in the first movie, I believe).

It is possible to justify that scene, as above, but it requires some pretty nimble mental gymnastics. To me it was much more about maxing the scary undead screen time.

I wonder how much sense it made to folks who hadn't read the book?

[Aranwe]

Can he tell its the wrong one?

I would assume so... but maybe not

Ok but the point is if he saw it at Osgiliath still with a hobbit knowing they are cut off from Gondor

They aren't cut off, how would Faramir escape if they were?

And if Sauron thinks that they will try and use the ring against him, it would be dumb to send all his wraiths to attack. What if gandalf had the ring? If Eowyn can kill the witch-king with a sword I'm sure gandalf could easily fend off an attack from all 9 wraiths if he had the ring.

Also, when they are in Bree, Aragorn says that the wraiths do not attack openly unless they are desperate. The quote is something like "In dark and loneliness they are strongest. They will not openly attack a house where there are many people."

If they wont attack a house with unarmed peasants there's no way they would attack a defended city, in daylight.

They also fled from weathertop when the ring was defended only by a few hobbits and a single man. They didn't even know who aragorn was at the time, so they couldn't have been scared for that reason.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Aranwe
They aren't cut off, how would Faramir escape if they were?
More to the point, how they get to the West side of the river with the bridges down? And how will Frodo get back across?

What if gandalf had the ring? If Eowyn can kill the witch-king with a sword I'm sure gandalf could easily fend off an attack from all 9 wraiths if he had the ring.
Gandalf states that it would take a long time to master the Ring. Some have argued that it took Merry's Numenorean blade combined with Eowyn to kill him. Pretty unlikely.

They also fled from weathertop when the ring was defended only by a few hobbits and a single man. They didn't even know who aragorn was at the time, so they couldn't have been scared for that reason.
Fair comment; often wondered that myself. It's passed off as them being over-confident that the "long leagues of Eriador" giving the knife enough time to do its thang. Bit dodgy, really, but to do with the original plot, not the film (ducks for cover).

cheers

d.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dunadan
You're quite right. That, and aren't Nazgul supposed to be "drawn to the ring" at all times, "feeling its presence" (Aragorn in the first movie, I believe).

Thats the impression I get again and again. Especially when we see one sniffing around when Frodo and the others are hiding under the root. Is he smelling hobbit or the ring? Im assuming the ring.

It is possible to justify that scene, as above, but it requires some pretty nimble mental gymnastics. To me it was much more about maxing the scary undead screen time.

Absolutely. Technical ramifications be damned.

I wonder how much sense it made to folks who hadn't read the book?

Im guessing it was perfectly fine for people who didnt understand the details. Because all that happened was a typical hollywood close call. Oh no if he gets the ring all hope is lost! Whew! He didnt get the ring. Ok everything is fine and back to normal now. I guess we can have a third movie now. :rolleyes:

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Aranwe
They aren't cut off, how would Faramir escape if they were?

But the bridge is out isnt it? and they are on the wrong side of the river. So getting accross is a bit of a chore.

And if Sauron thinks that they will try and use the ring against him, it would be dumb to send all his wraiths to attack. What if gandalf had the ring? If Eowyn can kill the witch-king with a sword I'm sure gandalf could easily fend off an attack from all 9 wraiths if he had the ring.

Also, when they are in Bree, Aragorn says that the wraiths do not attack openly unless they are desperate. The quote is something like "In dark and loneliness they are strongest. They will not openly attack a house where there are many people."

If they wont attack a house with unarmed peasants there's no way they would attack a defended city, in daylight.

They also fled from weathertop when the ring was defended only by a few hobbits and a single man. They didn't even know who aragorn was at the time, so they couldn't have been scared for that reason.

Hmm well I never really saw the Nazgul as such fragile little creatures. They are supposed to be pretty freaking dangerous from what I understand. And the only reason she killed one was because she had the right kind of sword. Also why would the nazgul be there at all trying to get the ring from Frodo if they arent willing to go after the enemy in day light. And the issue I have is that the whole long chase scene to rivendell where they ALMOST get caught shows that the nazgul are really very persistant and will stop at nothing to get that ring. and when one realizes its there they ALL swarm down with their horses and chase after them. So why wouldnt the same thing happen at Osgiliath when they have winged creatures now not just horses and when they are so much closer to Mordor? After weathertop they just regrouped they didnt run off. They prefer to attack in groups.

[Aranwe]

Also why would the nazgul be there at all trying to get the ring from Frodo if they arent willing to go after the enemy in day light

They weren't after Frodo... they were attacking Osgiliath, with a large number of orcs and wild men (in the book, at least, you don't actually see this in the movie, it just shows huge rocks being thrown presumably from catapults). When Faramir received the message that they were under attack he and his rangers went to help.

Some have argued that it took Merry's Numenorean blade combined with Eowyn to kill him.

Merry only hit him in the foot though, and probably not very hard (weak hobbit :p). It's Eowyn's blow that kills him; after Merry hits his foot the witch king shrieks in pain (ie not dead), but after Eowyn's stab he immediately falls (ie dead).

While the wraiths cannot be killed, they can be hurt and banished, sometimes taking days to recover. Gandalf says soemthing about this in FotR after they are overcome by the river.

But the bridge is out isnt it? and they are on the wrong side of the river. So getting accross is a bit of a chore.

I thought the bridge was taken, not destroyed - so Faramir and his men could fight their way through. I can't actually remember whether it was only taken though. If it is destroyed they'll probably be shown fleeing in boats across the river or something in RotK.

Also why would the nazgul be there at all trying to get the ring from Frodo if they arent willing to go after the enemy in day light

They are willing, but only in the right circumstances when they absolutely must. i.e. one she-elf vs 9 wraiths. They were unwilling at weathertop to risk a fight because they thought they had enough time before they would reach rivendell to try again.

Thats the impression I get again and again. Especially when we see one sniffing around when Frodo and the others are hiding under the root. Is he smelling hobbit or the ring? Im assuming the ring.

They can sense the presence of the ring, but I don't think they can really locate it without seeing it (if they could see it at all in daylight) or it being on someones finger. Otherwise the wraith would have found the hobbits hiding under the tree root.