The Silmarillions in the Hobbit

[webwizard333]

Though I have never read The Silmarillion I have a general understanding of the plot (I'm planning on reading it soon). I was wondering if it was possible that the Arkenstone might have been one of the the Silmarrils.

[Inoldonil]

Short answer: no. Long answer may spoil the plot for you, so don't read if you don't want to hear about it ;)
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No, it's not. I believe if you'll look in Of Durin's Folk in the Appendices to the Lord of the Rings you will find the date of when Erebor was excavated, and when the stone was found at it's heart, and by what Dwarf.

The Silmarilli are lost, and will not be recovered again until the world is broken at the Last Battle.

The Silmarilli are bound up with the fates of the world; earth, sea and air.

In the evening, you may want to take a look at the evening star. That indeed is not Earth's sister Venus, but a Silmaril, fastened to the ship of Eärendil, who ceaselessly sails the skies, gazing out into the cold Void, where Morgoth the Dark Foe lurks and awaits his time.

The Three Jewels of old were hallowed by Varda, whom Dark Elves in Middle-earth call Elbereth, Queen of the Stars, so that no hand unclean may touch them that did not suffer immense pain and torment. So it was that the last surviving sons of Fëanor, who stole the two remaining Silmarilli that were, cast them away at last. The mighty singer cast his into the Sea, but the Tall son of Fëanor would not be parted from the light he had vowed to retrieve and cast himself into a fiery chasm of the earth with his Jewel.

[webwizard333]

I'm gonna be picky now just to prove a point that its possible :p . If he fell into a chasm with it, coudn't the lava have flowed up, making a mountain around it???? Name one "unclean" person who touched it? :lol:

[Finduilas]

I remember reading several discussions about this elsewhere (can't remember where though) and the general consensus is no, it's not likely.

One of the reasons is that the Hobbit distinctly says that the dwarves "cut and fashioned it" and the Silmarillion says the material the jewels were made of was so strong that no violence could mar or break it.

[Inoldonil]

I'm gonna be picky now just to prove a point that its possible [] . If he fell into a chasm with it, coudn't the lava have flowed up, making a mountain around it????

First of all, as I said, the Silmarilli aren't going to be recovered until the world is broken. I didn't make that up. Second of all, the chasm could not have been where Erebor was, it was somewhere in Beleriand. Take a look at a Lord of the Rings map. See Lindon and the wide sea to the west of it? That's where Beleriand was. Third of all, the Silmarilli were not as large as the Arkenstone anyway.

By 'unclean' I meant impure. That would be Morgoth, Maglor and Maedhros.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Unclean or impure? The Silmarils were hollowed by Varda so that no mortal flesh,or hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched.

[SauronDL]

Remember that most of the evil left in Middle-earth during the time of the Fellowship, was of far greater power than those when the Silmarilli were forged.

[Earendilyon]

How do you mean that, Sauron? Sauron was just an Maia, whereas Morgoth was an Vala. Morgoth was much more powerfull: he was the greatest of the Valar! Also many powerfull evil beings were killed in the era's before the end of the third age: dragons, most balrogs.

[Shanamir Duntak]

Yeah....
You seem to have a great mind and a good spirit Sauron, but please, try to think a little longer before posting...

With your posts, I think I can say that your not one of our oldest members..

Ah... youth.... :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Although great evil did exist at the time of the Fellowship, it is true I think, that greater evil existed in the First Age. However, Sauron makes a good point in saying that the evil may not have been as great at the time of the making of the Silmarils. Remember that this occurred in Valinor and the Two Trees still lived. Although Morgoth had inflicted great harm upon Arda, and there were many evil creatures afoot in the Outer Lands, he still had not achieved the height of his power, Vala though he was. This was at a time when he was still corrupting others to his service and building his forces.But after the Exile of the Noldor and the making of the sun and moon and the beginning of the First age, the evil indeed is by far more and greater than that of the Third Age.

[Inoldonil]

SauronDL is almost right. In the Second Age when Sauron was at the height of his power, he is stated to be more powerful than Morgoth when the latter was brooding in Angband, but Sauron in 3019 was much weaker and maybe on equal footing with an Angband-Morgoth, though I would blindly guess a bit lower. This is said in Morgoth's Ring.

I think SauronDL was just stating what he felt to be true by impressions. Reading The Silmarillion is undoubtedly a different exp. than reading The Lord of the Rings. You as a reader are far more present in LR than you are in the Silmarillion, and the evil may seem both greater and more alarming.

Sister, both, then :)

webwizard, sorry if I was rude. Certainly not your fault you haven't read The Silmarillion, and I gather from Finduilas that evidently those who have still ask the same question.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Let's just say that there was a great deal of fluxuation in evil power between the ages. Going from great power to weak and fallen, then a return to great power for these two icons of evil. Sauron of course is not Morgoth's equal, but no one was closer. Indeed, both were the greatest evil the world knew and Sauron made a close and suitable replacement for Morgoth

Btw, could someone be good enough to tell me how to do quotes on this board? Thanks.

[bmilder]

Shanamir: Don't be too hard on him :p .

Sister: To the left of the reply box you will see a link to "Use EzCodes." This should answer most of your questions. To do a quote, you would put the quote between the and tags.

[Shanamir Duntak]

:p

ok then. :D

[Captain Stern]

I'll take you'r word on it Inoldonil that it says in 'Morgoth's Ring' that Sauron from the 2nd to 3rd age was more or equaly powerful than Morgoth in Angband, but I think you are misunderstanding it or maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

I think what it's refering to is the power concentrated in the individual.

There is no way Sauron's power even touched Morgoth's power millitarily during his period in Angband. Gondor withstood Sauron's onslaught for quite a while, a mere pocket of men. Angband was attacked about 3 times by the Noldor and the Edain ( a far superior enemy, and I forget how many times they besieged Angband I think it's 3? )

Even during the War of Wrath the forces of Morgoth withstood the onslaught for 11 years was it? This was against an army of Vanyar elves, Edain and not to mention the almost the entire race of the Ainur. When he unleashed his dragons Morgoth even managed to push back that invincible force.

By that force, Sauron and all his millitary might would have been sweapt away as if it was nothing.