What people think of Two Towers (*SPOILERS*) [Archive] - Page 4

Aragorn_of_the_west

04-20-2003, 12:16 PM

sorry to interupet your fight but i would just like to state a few things on the movie:

PJ changed a lot of the real storie which made it big
dissappointment for me. i was very annoyed to see that Aragorn had "almost" died in the movie( i dont recall anything like that in the book), and i was even more dissapointed that PJ didnt include Shelob and the arriavel at Isenguard.:(

but i did like the Gollum self-talking part as well as Helms Deep- all in all, a avrege movie.

Elf Girl

04-20-2003, 12:30 PM

Well, Shelob and Isengard will be in the next movie... I hope! :eek:

gimli7410

04-20-2003, 01:11 PM

they will i have seen pictures of shelob

Christiana

04-20-2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by gimli7410
hahahaha you ugly little elves. no one really likes you they only act like they do because they dont want you to feel bad:p

Hey!I resent that thankyouverymuch!

gimli7410

04-20-2003, 04:31 PM

oooh you poor misguided elf, nobody likes you

Christiana

04-20-2003, 05:42 PM

Hey!

gimli7410

04-20-2003, 06:36 PM

Lalaith

04-21-2003, 04:09 AM

Elves DO exist. No question. How would you explain the existance of Orlando Bloom if not?

gimli7410

04-21-2003, 01:03 PM

he's a fake:p

Lalaith

04-21-2003, 01:15 PM

Never.

gimli7410

04-21-2003, 01:18 PM

it's true. its all a lie. the only elves that exist are the ones that make cookies. the keebler elves. I think they are elves, and they are all little and ugly.

Nurvingiel

04-21-2003, 01:30 PM

I am a tree.

Elf Girl is an elf, tall and fair.

My feelings on how the elves and dwarves were portrayed in TTT are mixed. On the one hand, they were very different from my mental image and/or their characterizations in the book. On the other hand, they were still well done. Legolas and Gimli were both cool despite their unbookishness.

Lalaith

04-21-2003, 01:31 PM

You really want to destroy all hopes and illusions of a little girl? Cruel person.

Christiana

04-21-2003, 09:50 PM

If elves dont exist, then technically Im just a figment of everyone's imagination

gimli7410

04-21-2003, 09:52 PM

too true, too true

Lalaith

04-22-2003, 05:37 AM

*almost crying* but what about Arwen? She is real, isn't she?

azalea

04-22-2003, 01:58 PM

Guys, maybe this conversation would be better suited to the "Why do you all want to be elves?" thread in ME, or some such.

Elf Girl

04-22-2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by Lalaith
*almost crying* but what about Arwen? She is real, isn't she?
She was real. She died, remember?

Ah yes... TTT. I didn't like it.

Nurvingiel

04-23-2003, 02:22 AM

My attempts to combine elves with the actual topic went ignored... and the threat of a padlock that looks like a garbage can looms. While we're off topic, yea for the Canucks! 4-1 win over St. Louis! Advancing to the next round where the play the Wild! (And the Wild beat the Avalanche. Ha ha!)

Lalaith

04-23-2003, 03:28 PM

Okay, back to the topic.
(Thanks for telling me that Arwen was real, BTW)

I really liked TTT. Usually I don't like battle scences, but I liked the battle of Helms Deep.

Linaewen

04-24-2003, 08:40 AM

I liked that scene too. Hmm.. forgot all the rest that I liked about the movie....
BTW: Lai! You are not on! Damn!

SamwiseGamgeeOTS

04-24-2003, 09:05 AM

TTT: hmmm......well, I liked it!

Gimli: O COME ON! WE CAN TAKE 'EM! (pure greatness!):D

Lalaith

04-24-2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Linaewen
I liked that scene too. Hmm.. forgot all the rest that I liked about the movie....
BTW: Lai! You are not on! Damn!
I know. Damn. Why do I have to go to school. :D
Back to the topic.

Dreran the Green

04-27-2003, 10:01 AM

Hello. Thought I'd add my opinion on TTT.:)
I thought it was really cool as far as movies go, but as far as the books go it coulda been a little more, er, bookish.
But I still loved it. Gollum was awesome, but the best part was at the beginning when Gandalf was fighting the Balrog!! I think it was about the coolest thing in the world when he was falling through the air, then grabs Glamdring and attacks the demon! Hee hee, that's Gandalf for you! He's plummeting to what may very well be his death, and he still doesn't give in! Yay!

Nurvingiel

04-30-2003, 12:54 AM

Welcome to the thread Dreran the Green (I'm green too, since I am a tree!) I also thought Gandalf's scene was really well done. It was almost exactly as I pictured it, in terms of timing, and bookishness. Physically, I pictured the Balrog a bit differently (no horns or wings, the subject of many debates so let's not go there) but it was so well done I have no complaints. Gandalf is also very well played over all. Some people didn't like Gandalf the White's staff, but I only think he should have kept his old one because that makes more sense to me.

Cheers! |N|

Elf Girl

06-08-2003, 12:18 PM

When will this thread no longer be 'important'? It's been six months now.

Gerbil

06-08-2003, 01:51 PM

Dunno but where's the 'extended TTT DVD cut' thread? There has to be one somewhere. I came back here to find out what was likely to be included?

Cirdan

06-08-2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Gerbil
Dunno but where's the 'extended TTT DVD cut' thread? There has to be one somewhere. I came back here to find out what was likely to be included?

That would make a good new thread since a discussion of it here might be ignored by many.

Gerbil

06-08-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Cirdan
That would make a good new thread since a discussion of it here might be ignored by many. True, but my point was I'm suprised there isn't one already, or if there is I couldn't find it.
This time last year we was all wetting ourselves over the FotR extended cut (until we saw it and had to endure more tom-foolery from the hobbits).

Nurvingiel

06-08-2003, 02:44 PM

Anything TTT is important in this thread. I'm impressed how long it's been going on. I think it would be great if it kept going until RotK came out. But whatev, I doubt that's going to happen.

I don't *gulp* have the Two Towers DVD. I actually feel that the times I saw it in the theatre are good enough. If I had more money, I'd feel otherwise.

Lady of Rohan

06-08-2003, 02:53 PM

I would like to pre-order TTT, but I haven't yet. I am trying to figure out if it would be better to just get the DVD when it comes out and wait the extra while, or preorder it. I think (depending on where you get it from) you would get a better deal with the pre order, but I'm not sure.

jerseydevil

06-08-2003, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Gerbil
Dunno but where's the 'extended TTT DVD cut' thread? There has to be one somewhere. I came back here to find out what was likely to be included?
It's just an example of how LotR fans aren't as happy with Jackson's movies as they were when FotR came out (which any old posters know I hated). If the obsessive behaviour was carried on into TT - then people would actually care when the Two Towers DVD comes out.

eowyngirl14

06-08-2003, 03:38 PM

azalea

06-09-2003, 01:55 PM

There is a thread about the EE, it was started a while ago and kind of died because I guess there hasn't been any new info about what's going to be on it, as far as I know. I'll bring it to the top in case anyone would like to discuss it.

I guess we could release this thread from its "important" status at this point, but I'll wait until crickhollow gets back and see what she thinks. It won't hurt anything to leave it up here for a little while longer.

Gerbil

06-09-2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It's just an example of how LotR fans aren't as happy with Jackson's movies as they were when FotR came out (which any old posters know I hated). If the obsessive behaviour was carried on into TT - then people would actually care when the Two Towers DVD comes out. Not necessarily true - I see it more as a case of with FotR lots of us were chomping at the bit for years - with nothing before it to ease our wait.
With TTT we've already had FotR, so initial enthusiasm has waned a bit (not necessarily cos you don't like it, just cos 3 years of enthusiasm is basically impossible), and have the finale to come.

The trouble with the middle bit is, well, it's in the middle :)

Christiana

06-10-2003, 09:42 PM

Whens TT coming out on video?

Cirdan

06-10-2003, 10:01 PM

Aug. 26 and Nov. 17 for EE

Christiana

06-12-2003, 06:10 PM

thank you

Gerbil

06-24-2003, 01:27 PM

Over time, I've seen TTT probably a dozen times in it's entirety - now of course, I just skip to the bits I like.

I just thought I'd mention that there are some bits still that are so brilliant, so well realised visually and so well matched to the soundtrack, that they make me shiver even now.

I'm not a huge fan of the soundtrack as a standalone - FotR is better just to listen to, but TTT soundtrack as a soundtrack is almost perfect, and it's this that tends to give me the cues of 'perfection' in a scene.

Current top favourite 'shiver + amazing soundtrack' moments are (in no particular order):

- The whole Gandalf fighting Balrog start
- Gandalf and Eomer appearing at Helm's Deep ('Rohirrim - to the King!')
- The Ents deciding to go to war ('It is likely we go to our doom - the Last March of the Ents')
- The Ent battle ('A hit, a fine hit!')
- The start of Helm's Deep (while waiting, IE the build-up)
- Just before Warg battle (Aragorn and Eowyn parting)

Several things are curious - first is that they don't necessarily tie in with actual scenes from the film that I like (I can't stand the Warg battle for example), and second is none of them are anything to do with Frodo and Sam ;)

But all in all I'm happy there's still bits I can watch and really feel as if I'm in Tolkien's world. Shame I can't say that about most of the film, but then again I've watched it to death :D

Nurvingiel

06-25-2003, 04:44 PM

Well, Frodo and Sam weren't the main characters in this movie, so this is understandable.

It did set RotK up well though.

(I don't like the Warg battle either, I think it exists to make up for leaving the battle the Fellowship had with Wargs before they reached Moria.)

Entlover

07-03-2003, 12:09 AM

I've decided I like The Thirteenth Warrior better than TT. However, considering TT as part of the trilogy, I predict I'll end up preferring the whole LotR trilogy to any other movie.

Nurvingiel

07-03-2003, 03:55 PM

I loved the 13th warrior! It was filmed in BC, my home province. Yes! I liked it because it was a great movie. Though I had some issues with TTT I still liked it better that 13thW. Despite its problems, it was still an awesome movie. It was bound to suffer a little as the 2nd movie in LotR's 3 parts.

Entlover

07-03-2003, 04:36 PM

Nurvingiel, your message box is full so I can't PM you. You must be popular!
Have you considered joining the committee to edit the Entmoot Anthology? (in your spare time :) )

anarion

07-20-2003, 09:47 AM

I loved TTT, and thought it was way better than the Fellowship.
Don't get me wrong, i loved both movies once I saw the extended version of the fellowship.
I just liked TTT more.

Aeryn Evenstar

07-24-2003, 10:50 PM

I can't wait till TTT comes out--the extended version that is. I don't think I will buy the theatrical version this time around. I think I like TTT about as much as FOTR. FOTR was the set up for the next two movies. I can't wait to see it again! :D

Hi, Anarion! :)

gimli7410

07-24-2003, 11:52 PM

i just watched it at the hotel i was staying at. that will satisfy me till august:D

Lizra

07-25-2003, 08:49 AM

Did anyone else think Aragorn looked "pudgy" in that Lounger/ pajama outfit or whatever he had on in the Rivendell "love" scene? I thought his bare feet were kind of icky (long curving toes! :eek: ) too! :D The wardrobe dept should have hid his bulging tummy, corrected his posture, or given him shoulder pads! Someone else thought he'd just been to a massive breakfast buffet in Rivendell :D Yum! ;)

legolialis

08-04-2003, 07:43 PM

i realy liked the movie. I didn't think that it was as good as the fellowship but it was still realy good. except i didn't like how they took frodo all the way to osgiliath instead of just the secret hideout of gondor still in ithilian. i can't wait for the return of the king!!!

legolialis

08-04-2003, 07:46 PM

I don't think he looked "pudgy" lol I thought he looked the same, and he's suppose to have "icky" feet he's a ranger. Try spending that much time outside and not get nasty feet. I'll bet they didn't have gold bond foot powder in middle earth!! lol

anarion

08-08-2003, 11:09 PM

remember that Aragorn isn't supposed to look like a king yet...and btw I thought that Vigo was just about the best Aragorn that I could have thought of.
Anarion

Hello to you too Aeryn:)

elixir

08-09-2003, 09:23 AM

I'm quite sure that it's been mentioned by somebody already for I didn't read through all the 41 pages of this thread and it could be mentioned somewhere else too, but.....

In TTT, the battle at Helm's Deep, it says that the army consists of 10 000 orcs. That was not 10 000 orcs in the movie, it was something about 50 000-100 000 orcs... Too many orcs, there were too many orcs!

You may say that it was a minor change, but it bothered me! :mad:

So, I'm interested to hear other people's opinions about it and if it has been discussed before, a link to the place it was discussed would be very nice indeed...

Nurvingiel

08-09-2003, 11:33 PM

I'm having trouble with the Entmoot website, otherwise I'd look for the huge Helm's Deep discussion for you. I think the trouble comes from the people who normally put hundreds of hours into the site to maintain it are deservedly on vacation.

Anyway, I also had a few issues with that battle, but I also enjoyed it and thought some parts worked really well.

I wouldn't mind rehashing those ideas either. I was also thrown off a bit by the excessive quantities of orcs, and the too few Rohirrim. They were outnumbered, but not by that much. We know it's a desparate battle already, sheesh.

I really loved the scene where Gandalf comes with Eomer's army. Them charging down the steep slope was an awe-inspiring sight.

Cheers! |N|

azalea

08-11-2003, 03:11 PM

I do think that was a flaw -- they were in love with their computer program that allowed them to bring to life an army of that size, so they had to use it.:rolleyes:
There are a couple of Helm's Deep threads; the easiest way to find them is to do a search of this forum.

Seton,Lothlorien Guardian

08-11-2003, 05:37 PM

You would be suprised at what 10,000 people looks like.
But I do agree there were quite a few Orcs there and too few Men.

I searched for Helm's Deep and came up with 350 results..

Cirdan

08-11-2003, 06:23 PM

Helm's Deep Movie Thread (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8061&highlight=helms+deep)

elixir

08-13-2003, 11:51 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seton,Lothlorien Guardian
You would be suprised at what 10,000 people looks like.
But I do agree there were quite a few Orcs there and too few Men.

I searched for Helm's Deep and came up with 350 results.. [QUOTE]

I searched for 10000 and found about 30 results :rolleyes:

10,000 people looks extremely few. It's only 100*100 people. And if they stand quite close to each other they take surprisingly little room. Believe me.

Hmmm... I think I should go and talk about this in that Helm's Deep Movie Thread that Cirdan had in his post...

paulbaggins

08-29-2003, 10:02 PM

I saw TT last night. It is a darkewr movie than LotR BUT then so is the book. Its the nature of the story. I enjoyed Gollum and his schizoid discussion . The battle of Helms Deep well that whole line has so many modern paralells that as ahistorian I could transfer the people opf middle eaarth into any war any time. Foromir is a bit of a disapointment after Boromir but even brothers can't be that alikee. And I am looking forward to the Return of the King mainly to knit up the story.
As fpor Fordo & Sam they just keep on moving.

Nurvingiel

08-29-2003, 11:50 PM

Welcome to the Moot!

Faramir was a bit disappointing too. ~_^

I thought the actor was good, but why did he have to cave in to the power of the ring? He didn't do that in the book. (The character not behaving a certain way in the book is the basis for my only complaints.)

Book-Faramir was cool!

Entlover

08-30-2003, 01:01 AM

Speaking of dark movies, I recently watched the Frighteners, just because Peter Jackson directed it and I wanted to see if there were any parallels. It was a mediocre Michael J Fox horror/comedy, some of it pretty sadistic. (I like Fox, don't get me wrong, but it was pretty light stuff when not gruesome.) I think PJ has matured considerably as a director (don't flame me!) since then.

ringbearer

08-30-2003, 01:48 AM

I did not see this at the theater. For some odd reason I waited for the DVD. I gave FoTR a 7 out of 10(saw at theater, and own DVD). I gave this one (TTT) 8 out of 10.

It was a little slower (kept looking at the clock(not from boredom...more like "if they keep this pace, how in the heck are they going to fit everything in).

I did not like the Faramir change...but it did not bother me like it has others.

I think the Gimli comedy was a bit overdone...but it did not ruin the film for me. "You'll have to toss me...don't tell the elf!" quote may be wrong, but I liked that one.

Treebeard looked awesome!

The Black Gate was exactly like I imagined it while reading!

The movie was great, the books are great...but they are (and probably have to be) two different things!

Khamûl

08-30-2003, 11:04 PM

After watching this movie again, it's better than I remembered. Not as good as FotR, but still good. I guess the last 9 months have brought me peace with most of PJ's changes. :rolleyes:

jerseydevil

08-30-2003, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Khamûl
After watching this movie again, it's better than I remembered. Not as good as FotR, but still good. I guess the last 9 months have brought me peace with most of PJ's changes. :rolleyes:

I still don't have the damn movie. I will not accept Jackson's idiotic changes. So now that you have the movie - can you tell me why he had Frodo taken all the way to Osgiliath and why the Nazgul didn't take the Ring when it was two feet from it's grasp and how did Frodo travel back east again without ever being spotted? We know how hard it was for him to get to that point the first time - now Jackson expects us to believe he was able to do it a SECOND time. :rolleyes:

Another thing - Why did he make faramir such an asshole in the movie? And why did Treebeard have no idea about the forest being destroyed? And what was the deal with the exorcism? And why did Aragorn fall off the cliff and "die"? I cna go on and on - but you get the picture I think.

Jackson's a hack and butchered the movies.

olsonm

08-31-2003, 05:57 AM

Note: I make no objective argument about the effectivness or 'correctness' of these scenes. I answer the question; "why?", in a mechanical sense.
why he had Frodo taken all the way to Osgiliath Padding. He wanted a more visually impressive moment for Frodo to compete with the (intended) spectacular visuals of "Helm's Deep" and "the Drowning of Isengard", because he had shifted the Shelob sequence to ROTK. Padding.
why the Nazgul didn't take the Ring when it was two feet from it's grasp He tried to. But Sam and Faramir prevented it.
how did Frodo travel back east again without ever being spotted? We know how hard it was for him to get to that point the first time - now Jackson expects us to believe he was able to do it a SECOND time. He got out the same way he got in. His entrance into Osgiliath was not protrayed as difficult, why then would his exit be difficult?
Why did he make faramir such an asshole in the movie? He chose an aspect of Faramir's character (his tragic relationship with his father) to be his main characteristic in the movie, because this facilitated his simplification devices (i.e.; the exaggerated threat of the Ring, the weakness of Men) as well as the padding mention above.
And why did Treebeard have no idea about the forest being destroyed? Because it had just begun in FOTR.
And what was the deal with the exorcism? Interpretive exaggeration.
And why did Aragorn fall off the cliff and "die"? Padding. He needed to transform his reluctant Aragorn from FOTR into someone capable of accepting his role as king in ROTK. Due to the shifting of story events out of TTT into the other two films, he had time to get creative with this transformative scene. He did. Padding.

Again, all are free to agree or disagree with the adaptive and cinematic effectivness of these scenes but these appear to be their mechanical origins.

jerseydevil

08-31-2003, 04:13 PM

Yeah - I knew why he did it. He needed to make LotR into an action movie.

As for the Osgiliath scene with the Nazgul - it still makes no sense - Sauron would have the other eight Nazgul there in a heartbeat. Frodo would never have been able to cross back over and make it back to Mordor.

olsonm

09-01-2003, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As for the Osgiliath scene with the Nazgul - it still makes no sense - Sauron would have the other eight Nazgul there in a heartbeat. Frodo would never have been able to cross back over and make it back to Mordor. What difference would having the other Nazgul there make? They're not invincible nor is their ability to detect the Ring's presence exact. If Frodo passes through the sewers and exits on the outskirts of East Osgilliath he should be able to avoid detection. Especially if it is assumed he is on the way to Minas Tirith.

jerseydevil

09-01-2003, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by olsonm
What difference would having the other Nazgul there make? They're not invincible nor is their ability to detect the Ring's presence exact. If Frodo passes through the sewers and exits on the outskirts of East Osgilliath he should be able to avoid detection. Especially if it is assumed he is on the way to Minas Tirith.
They are exact enough when the Nazgul is two feet from the ring though. They were able to follow Frodo from the Shire to the Ford. So - Sauron would have sent all his Nazguls to Osgiliath to search for the Ring. After Flight to the Ford none of the Nazgul came near Frodo - except while they are flying high in the air - and even then they circle around to investigate because they could feel the Ring's presence. You're telling me with the Nazgul reaching out for the Ring and Frodo - that Sauron would not know that the Ring was there?

olsonm

09-01-2003, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They are exact enough when the Nazgul is two feet from the ring though. They were able to follow Frodo from the Shire to the Ford. So - Sauron would have sent all his Nazguls to Osgiliath to search for the Ring. After Flight to the Ford none of the Nazgul came near Frodo - except while they are flying high in the air - and even then they circle around to investigate because they could feel the Ring's presence. You're telling me with the Nazgul reaching out for the Ring and Frodo - that Sauron would not know that the Ring was there? I don't see how this post relates to mine. I never said Sauron wouldn't know the Ring was there. I believe he does. After the Nazgul is chased off by Faramir it is no longer two feet away from Frodo, therefore it's (and the others) ability to re-locate Frodo would be reduced. There is no evidence that they ever got close to him again. It doesn't matter if Sauron knows the Ring is in Osgilliath if Frodo is no longer there. The most logical deduction from Sauron's point of view would be that the Gondorians have the Ring and are taking it to Minas Tirith. That misinterpretation would reduce the likelihood of Frodo being discovered in Eastern Ithilien as it would concentrate the search on Osgilliath and west to Minas Tirith.

jerseydevil

09-01-2003, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by olsonm
I don't see how this post relates to mine. I never said Sauron wouldn't know the Ring was there. I believe he does. After the Nazgul is chased off by Faramir it is no longer two feet away from Frodo, therefore it's (and the others) ability to re-locate Frodo would be reduced. There is no evidence that they ever got close to him again. It doesn't matter if Sauron knows the Ring is in Osgilliath if Frodo is no longer there. The most logical deduction from Sauron's point of view would be that the Gondorians have the Ring and are taking it to Minas Tirith. That misinterpretation would reduce the likelihood of Frodo being discovered in Eastern Ithilien as it would concentrate the search on Osgilliath and west to Minas Tirith.
Fraodo couldn't just FLY out of Osgiliath - he would have had to walk out again. That means the nazgul had plenty of tiem to get to Osgiliath and search for him. With nine Nazgul it would make sense to have them sent and surround the area and search for the Ring. In the books - Sauron never knew at all where the Ring was - never once came close to it after Flight to the Ford.

olsonm

09-01-2003, 02:01 AM

Fraodo couldn't just FLY out of Osgiliath - he would have had to walk out again. Yes. He goes underground. The sewers would mask his scent.
That means the nazgul had plenty of tiem to get to Osgiliath and search for him. With nine Nazgul it would make sense to have them sent and surround the area and search for the Ring.Nine Nazgul to search and surround an entire city? They can't sense his precise location at Bree or in the Dead Marshes but they can now pin-point him in a vast city? Unless the Nazgul know where the sewers let out and anticipate that Frodo will be using them to head east (why, when it would make more sense for him to go west) I don't see why the Nazgul would absolutely have to discover Frodo. I suppose they could have stumbled upon him, but they clearly didn't.

cassiopeia

09-01-2003, 10:33 PM

Spoilers:

In the ROTK preview on the TTT DVD, Merry (if I remember correctly) tells Pippin that Sauron thinks he has the Ring. So it seems the Nazgul did not see Frodo holding out the Ring. I think there are some problems in this: if the Nazgul sense the Ring, why would Sauron believe the Ring is miles away near Isengard? (Unless Merry is mistaken).

olsonm

09-01-2003, 10:52 PM

I haven't seen ROTK yet (odd isn't it? :D) so I don't know if PJ will even address this issue. But it wouldn't be too difficult. 1: Pippin looks in the palantir; Sauron thinks he's in Isengard. 2. Gandalf takes him to Minas Tirith to keep him safe. 3. Faramir subsequently arrives at MT and gives his report to Denethor and Gandalf (as in the book) wherein he details his meeting with Frodo and their parting. 4. Gandalf asks when he last saw Frodo; Faramir says "A few days ago." That would be enough to indicate that Pippin looks in the Palantir *before* Frodo is spotted at Osgilliath, given that it would take Gandalf several days to reach MT from Edoras. This is one way PJ could handle it. But I don't know if he even will.

jerseydevil

09-01-2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by olsonm
Yes. He goes underground. The sewers would mask his scent.
Nine Nazgul to search and surround an entire city? They can't sense his precise location at Bree or in the Dead Marshes but they can now pin-point him in a vast city? Unless the Nazgul know where the sewers let out and anticipate that Frodo will be using them to head east (why, when it would make more sense for him to go west) I don't see why the Nazgul would absolutely have to discover Frodo. I suppose they could have stumbled upon him, but they clearly didn't.
You seem to forget that power of the ring gets stronger the closer they get to Mordor - therefore the Nazgul were able to sense it more. Just like the were able to sense it - while flying high over head - while Frodo was trying to make his way. I believe with the Ring being so close to Mordor and and the nazguls basically KNOWING where it was - that they would have been able to find it. In the books - they had NO IDEA where it was. They never came into contact with Frodo or the Ring since the Flight to the Ford in the books.

jerseydevil

09-01-2003, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Spoilers:

In the ROTK preview on the TTT DVD, Merry (if I remember correctly) tells Pippin that Sauron thinks he has the Ring. So it seems the Nazgul did not see Frodo holding out the Ring. I think there are some problems in this: if the Nazgul sense the Ring, why would Sauron believe the Ring is miles away near Isengard? (Unless Merry is mistaken).

The Nazgul would sense the Ring two feet from them. Especially being so close to Mordor. If they can't - then they aren't as much of a danger at finding Frodo and the Ring as Tolkien indicates and destroys the entire book. The Nazgul are wimps then and aren't anythign to be afraid of if they can't even sense the Ring.

cassiopeia

09-01-2003, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by olsonm
I haven't seen ROTK yet (odd isn't it? :D) so I don't know if PJ will even address this issue. But it wouldn't be too difficult. 1: Pippin looks in the palantir; Sauron thinks he's in Isengard. 2. Gandalf takes him to Minas Tirith to keep him safe. 3. Faramir subsequently arrives at MT and gives his report to Denethor and Gandalf (as in the book) wherein he details his meeting with Frodo and their parting. 4. Gandalf asks when he last saw Frodo; Faramir says "A few days ago." That would be enough to indicate that Pippin looks in the Palantir *before* Frodo is spotted at Osgilliath, given that it would take Gandalf several days to reach MT from Edoras. This is one way PJ could handle it. But I don't know if he even will.

This seems a very difficult and complicated way of handling this problem, and I think the audience would assume the Nazgul saw Frodo at Osgiliath before Pippin looks into the Palantir, as the Nazgul sees Frodo a whole movie before Pippin gets hold of the Palantir. It seems much, much simpler if PJ just stuck with the book, but we can hope that it is (somehow) explained in the ROTK.

olsonm

09-01-2003, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You seem to forget that power of the ring gets stronger the closer they get to Mordor - therefore the Nazgul were able to sense it more. Just like the were able to sense it - while flying high over head - while Frodo was trying to make his way. I believe with the Ring being so close to Mordor and and the nazguls basically KNOWING where it was - that they would have been able to find it. In the books - they had NO IDEA where it was. They never came into contact with Frodo or the Ring since the Flight to the Ford in the books. They knew the Ring was in the Prancing Pony. It didn't help them find Frodo. I see no evidence that the increasing power of the Ring has increased the Ringwraiths ability to detect it, in either the book or the movie. The Ringwraith 'sensed' the Ring in the Dead Marshes in the book as well, but in neither case does it realize that it is sensing the Ring.

olsonm

09-01-2003, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by cassiopeia
This seems a very difficult and complicated way of handling this problem, and I think the audience would assume the Nazgul saw Frodo at Osgiliath before Pippin looks into the Palantir, as the Nazgul sees Frodo a whole movie before Pippin gets hold of the Palantir. It seems much, much simpler if PJ just stuck with the book, but we can hope that it is (somehow) explained in the ROTK. What's complicated about it? Most people won't notice any problem with the Osgilliath scene. Those that do can handle editorial exposition. There are no connections made between the various plot-threads to indicate when they coincide. This would be the only time and doesn't need to be pointed out. Of course there *isn't* a whole movie between the two scenes. It'll probably amount to about thirty minutes of screen time. Either way, I see no indication how this will be dealt with in the film, this is speculation.

jerseydevil

09-01-2003, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by olsonm
They knew the Ring was in the Prancing Pony. It didn't help them find Frodo. I see no evidence that the increasing power of the Ring has increased the Ringwraiths ability to detect it, in either the book or the movie. The Ringwraith 'sensed' the Ring in the Dead Marshes in the book as well, but in neither case does it realize that it is sensing the Ring.
At no point in time in Bree did they SEE the ring or SEE frodo. It's entirely different, Frodo HELD the Ring out in front of the nazgul with them reaching out for Frodo and the Ring and you mean to tell me that the nazgul didn't know it was there?

The Dead Marshes =- how high in the air was the Nazgul? And how close was the Nazgul to Frodo and the Ring in Osgiliath. And contrary to your opinion - the Ring would attract the Nazguls the closer Frodo got to Mordor - IF they knew where to look. The last time the Nazgul see the Ring or Frodo directly - is at the Fords. At no time in the book does Frodo ever come into direct contact with them after that.

jerseydevil

09-01-2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by olsonm
What's complicated about it? Most people won't notice any problem with the Osgilliath scene. Those that do can handle editorial exposition. There are no connections made between the various plot-threads to indicate when they coincide. This would be the only time and doesn't need to be pointed out. Of course there *isn't* a whole movie between the two scenes. It'll probably amount to about thirty minutes of screen time. Either way, I see no indication how this will be dealt with in the film, this is speculation.
By the way - I can handle "editorial exposition" but what jackson did to the nazgul and their reaction to the Ring - completely goes against what Tolkien had said in the book. They would have KNOWN EXACTLY where it was when they came into contact with it at Osgiliath in the movie. Jackson needed another action scene - that is all. It does NOTHING to the plot.

olsonm

09-01-2003, 11:42 PM

At no point in time in Bree did they SEE the ring or SEE frodo. It's entirely different, Frodo HELD the Ring out in front of the nazgul with them reaching out for Frodo and the Ring and you mean to tell me that the nazgul didn't know it was there? When did I say that? I said that wraith did know the Ring was there. When are the wraiths in contact with Frodo after Faramir chases away the one in Osgilliath? Why would knowing Frodo's general location help them find him in a city, especially when he's no longer there and he goes off in an unexpected direction. In the book a wraith lands a few feet away from Frodo after he escapes from the Tower of Cirith Ungol and doesn't know that the Ring is there. That's in Mordor.

jerseydevil

09-02-2003, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by olsonm
When did I say that? I said that wraith did know the Ring was there.

The nazgul knew where abouts Frodo was - but they never came into direct contact like they did on the walls of Osgiliath and NO WHERE in the book did they ever come into contact like that in the book after the Ford.

When are the wraiths in contact with Frodo after Faramir chases away the one in Osgilliath? Why would knowing Frodo's general location help them find him in a city, especially when he's no longer there and he goes off in an unexpected direction. In the book a wraith lands a few feet away from Frodo after he escapes from the Tower of Cirith Ungol and doesn't know that the Ring is there. That's in Mordor.
I'm not going to put spoilers in for the book.

You are incorrect on your diescription of how close the nazgul was to Frodo and Sam in Mordor....

Out of the black sky there came dropping like a bolt a winged shape, rending the clouds with a ghastly shriek.

Land of Shadow
....Down the road they (Frodo and Sam) fled. In fifty paces, with a swift bend round a jutting bastion of the cliff, it took them out of sight from the Tower. They had escaped for the moment. Cowering back against the rock they drew breath, and then clutched at their hearts. Perching now on the wall beside the ruined gate the Nazgul sent out its deadly cries. All the cliffs echoed.

Contrary to your statement in your spoiler - the Nazgul did NOT land only a "a few feet away from Frodo after he escapes from the Tower of Cirith Ungol". He never actually SEES Frodo - but senses the Ring.

In Osgiliath in the movie - the Nazgul is right in FRONT of Frodo with Frodo holding the Ring.

The wraith would first of all not even be chased that easily away from Osgiliath without the Ring. The only thing that kept them from searching beyond the Ford was because they were washed away and uncloacked.

olsonm

09-02-2003, 12:24 AM

The nazgul knew where abouts Frodo was - but they never came into direct contact like they did on the walls of Osgiliath Yes they did. The saw him at the Bucklebury Ferry and the certainly came into contact with him at Weathertop. It didn't help them find the Ring until they picked up his trail again after Arwen took him back on the road.

In Osgiliath in the movie - the Nazgul is right in FRONT of Frodo with Frodo holding the Ring.The wraith would first of all not even be chased that easily away from Osgiliath without the Ring. The only thing that kept them from searching beyond the Ford was because they were washed away and uncloacked.His steed was nearly shot out from under him. On his own, being attacked he wouldn't have been able to obtain the Ring. He flys away to get re-enforcements, he loses contact with Frodo and can't know his exact location anymore.

Contrary to your statement in your spoiler - the Nazgul did NOT land only a "a few feet away from Frodo after he escapes from the Tower of Cirith Ungol". He never actually SEES Frodo - but senses the Ring. Fifty paces is a few feet. That quote was to show that just because Frodo is in Mordor the wraiths aren't drawn directly to where the Ring. And because they lost contact with him at Osgilliath they no longer know his exact location. Nor would it make sense for them to assume he would then be heading for Mordor.

olsonm

09-02-2003, 12:38 AM

I apologize JD, but I must go to bed now. However, this is a fascinating discussion and I hope to continue it tomorrow. :)

Ruinel

09-02-2003, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by olsonm
Yes they did. ...after Arwen took him back on the road.
O.o
... errrr... 'Arwen' takes him back on the road? errr... not in the BOOK. So, what are you talking about?

jerseydevil

09-02-2003, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by olsonm
Yes they did. The saw him at the Bucklebury Ferry and the certainly came into contact with him at Weathertop. It didn't help them find the Ring until they picked up his trail again after Arwen took him back on the road.

First of all - Arwen only took him back to the road in the movie - not in the book. I never said that the nazgul never came into contact with Frodo - I said they never came into contact with him AFTER the Ford. As for Buckleberry Ferry - they were not right in front of Frodo. They missed Frodo. The only time they actually saw Frodo face to face in the books was at Weathertop and the Ford.

His steed was nearly shot out from under him. On his own, being attacked he wouldn't have been able to obtain the Ring. He flys away to get re-enforcements, he loses contact with Frodo and can't know his exact location anymore.

It wasn't shot out from under him - it was shot at. On the banks of Anduin before the Fellowship breaks up - that nazgul had it's flying stead shot from under it by Legolas.

Fifty paces is a few feet. That quote was to show that just because Frodo is in Mordor the wraiths aren't drawn directly to where the Ring. And because they lost contact with him at Osgilliath they no longer know his exact location. Nor would it make sense for them to assume he would then be heading for Mordor.
That was how far they ran and hid. But the wraith never actually SAW Frodo there. I also didn't say they are drawn directly to the ring - but it would make sense that since the Ring was two feet in front of the nazgul that it would have pretty good idea where the ring was at that time.

You can buy jackson's butchered up changes - I don't. The Nazguls in Jackson's movie are much weaker than they are in the book. For one thing - in the book they are psychologically frightening - not weapon wielding maruaders. Frodo would NEVER have attempted to give the Ring to the Nazgul - not would the Nazgul just fly away with the Ring in it's grasp.

olsonm

09-02-2003, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Ruinel
O.o
... errrr... 'Arwen' takes him back on the road? errr... not in the BOOK. So, what are you talking about? And the wraiths didn't see him at the ferry in the book either. But they did in the movie. I was clearly talking about the movie.

olsonm

09-02-2003, 01:13 AM

I said they never came into contact with him AFTER the FordThat wasn't clear in your quote. Thank you for clarifying.
It wasn't shot out from under him I said it was nearly shot out from under him.

The Ringwraiths know where the Ring is after they come into contact with Frodo, I agree; but how, then, would they know where Frodo was after they lost contact at Osgilliath?

Ruinel

09-02-2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by olsonm
... I was clearly talking about the movie. I hope so. :D

jerseydevil

09-02-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by olsonm
The Ringwraiths know where the Ring is after they come into contact with Frodo, I agree; but how, then, would they know where Frodo was after they lost contact at Osgilliath?
The Ringwraith was still able to fly. I doubt it would have gone far from Osgiliath. Jackson made it where he was easily frightened away. Not really a great tool of the enemy like Tolkien made them out to be.

katya

09-15-2003, 08:09 PM

I just watched TTT again this weekend for the first time since it was in the theatres. I enjoyed watching it, though I still thought it was kind of long (i.e. "when is this movie going to be over for goodness sake?!") My dad was funny. He read and enjoyed the book and also the Hobbit but it was a long time ago. So long that I wondered if he even remembered who the heck Frodo was. Anyway he kept saying things like "I wanna see more of the tree people!" and "scary!". I was kind of surprised, when Eowyn kept saying how much she wanted to fight, dad was like "Do as you're told!" It was kind of funny. So yeah I guess nothign I said has anything to do with the conversation right now...