Dagor Bragollach

[easterlinge]

I still wonder why Fingolfin challenged Morgoth like that. The Elf Kingdoms were intact, most Noldor Lords survived. Why did the High King panic?

If it was the Nirnaeth, well, that's excusable, the Nirnaeth was an utter disaster. If Maedhros were Japanese, he'd commit hara-kiri.

So who became High King after Fingolfin? I don't recall any High King mentioned after Dagor Bragollach.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

The High King was Fingon. After who's death at the Nirneath, the High Kingship passed to Turgon.

As for why did he challenge Morgoth: my guess was he just went insane.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Actually, Fingolfin wanted to make war on Angband long before his battle with Morgoth. He percieved that during the Siege Morgoth did not sit idol in Angband. However the rest of the Noldorin kingdoms were unwilling to break the Siege because they became comfortable with the Long peace and trusted it to last. But Fingolfin was correct in thinking Morgoth was not idol and it was in the middle of the night that he attacked Dorthonion with the fires.. (The Dagor Bragollach) Finrod and his brothers bore the brunt of the assault and Aegnor and Angrod perished. When Fingolfin heard this he was outraged and this is when he challenged Morgoth to single combat and was killed. The High Kingship then passed to Fingon. After Fingon's death it passed to Turgon, and then to Gil-galad, who was the last of the High Kings of the Noldor. I am curious as to why Galadriel did not, or could not assume the High throne.

[Inoldonil]

Well, she's not descended from Fingolfin, is she? Although originally the High Kingship (or Rulership, or whatever you want to call it in order to include the possibility of a Queen) seemed to pass to the eldest of the House of Finwë, it didn't seem to go that way after Fingolfin. Was Fingon older than Maedron (or Maedhros)? After Fingon it went to his brother Turgon, and than to Turgon's nephew and Fingon's son (who had been somewhat in hiding with the Falathrim). Galadriel and all her siblings kinda missed the boat.

On the other hand, as I have recently brought up on another topic, Tolkien's final decision was that Gil-galad was Finarfin's great grandson. That is, he was the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod son of Finarfin. Why did it pass to him? Only after his father, his grandfather and the latter's brothers died, but there was still Galadriel. It does seem like she should have been the High Queen, doesn't it? That would ignore Feanáro's children, though.

The High Rulership must have depended on the 'subjects' themselves, the choice of the people involved who are to be ruled. Unless we're going to supposed Galadriel was overlooked because she was a woman, we could note she didn't exactly have much political leverage among the Noldor. In Middle-earth in the First Age she lived in Doriath, where, needless to say (save herself) there were no Noldor.

That is not to say she couldn't have been a Queen. There were some Noldorin Kings that were not High Kings. Possibly Finarfin, but also Maedhros and Finrod. She certainly had the choice when Amroth perished and Lothlórien needed leadership, but chose to be only its Lady.

Not that the Galadhrim were Noldor, mostly Tawarwaith actually, but she could have been a Queen all the same.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The children of Feanor were pretty much out of the picture for the High Kingship. After Feanor died, Maedhros turned the Kingship over to Fingolfin. So, it passed from him to his sons. I don't think that Finarfin's sons missed the boat, as much as they just ended up dead before the Kingship would have come to them. Orodreth would be the exception, and that messes it all up by changing the parental relations for him and Gilgalad. Even so though, he died before Turgon. That would have left Galadriel. I think that she may not have been a good candidate though. She does seem to turn her back on the Noldor in a way. So, not a good represntative for that race, I would say. Btw, it was probably a good thing that Orodreth never bacame High king. He was very weak of will. They would have been doomed like Nargothrond.

[Tar Elenion]

After the death of Finwe there were two rival claimants for the rule of the Noldor, Feanor and Fingolfin. Feanor died before this dispute could be settled and Maedhros elected not to pursue his claim, saying that Fingolfin was rightfully the overlord, and also dispossesses the other Feanorians of the right to claim this rule. The precedent seemingly established here is that the rule passed to the eldest (male) of the House. Fingolfin thus becomes the first High King of the Noldor. His son Fingon is the eldest eligible candidate after the death of Fingolfin and becomes High King. After Fingon's death Turgon is the eldest male member of the House of Finwe left (he and Finrod are noted as having been born in the same Valian year, which is a nearly 10 solar year period, but Turgon is listed first). While Turgon was alive most of the Finarfinians died. At his death there were four members of the House of Finwe left (excluding the Feanorians and possibly Irime, Finwe's daughter, and any of her descendants): Galadriel, Idril, Gil-galad, and Earendil. Of these Gil-galad was the eldest male, and thus inherited the High Kingship, following the implied prescendant already set. It seems that females were not eligble to inherit the rule of the Noldor. This can also be inferred from some statements in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar'.

[easterlinge]

High King Turgon being hidden must have presented unique administrative problems..... What good is a High King if he, being hidden, can't coordinate his subjects?

[Tar Elenion]

The High Kingship was rather nominal in any event. After establishing the seige Fingolfin was unable to get an assault started upon Morgoth, while it was not Fingon but Maedhros who arranged for the Union.

[lindil]

T E: The precedent seemingly established here is that the rule passed to the eldest (male) of the House. Fingolfin thus becomes the first High King of the Noldor. His son Fingon is the eldest eligible candidate after the death of Fingolfin and becomes High King. After Fingon's death Turgon is the eldest male member of the House of Finwe left (he and Finrod are noted as having been born in the same Valian year, which is a nearly 10 solar year period, but Turgon is listed first).

lindil: was not Maedhros older than Turgon or Fingon? I think it was a case of Maedhros realizing that the non-Feanorian Noldor would never accept the rule of a son of Feanor after the Oath, kinslaying, burning of the ships and later the actions of Celegorm and Curufin towards Finrod and Beren and Luithien.

[Tar Elenion]

See the mention in my earlier post to the 'dispossessing' of the Feanoreans. This is what I was referring to by 'eldest _elegible_ male'. :)