How big is Morgoth

[easygreen]

Morgoth's height has always puzzled me. He's supposed to be gigantic - like a "tower" the book says. But on the other hand, he puts his foot on Fingolfin's neck during their duel. Therefore, unless Fingolfen is built like a giraffe, that must mean Morgoth is vaguely man-sized.

A 50-foot tall humanoid's foot would cover the neck, head, and part of the chest. The taller is the harder it gets to try neck stomping. Try to step on a Barbie dolls neck and you'll see what I mean.

Another thing too is that Morgoth squashes Fingolfin with his shield. If Morgoth is truly gigantic he couldn't squash Fingolfin without kneeling or awkwardly bending at the waist. I find it very difficult to picture Morgoth doing flexibility exercises during the duel.

Based on these facts, I'm beginning to wonder if Morgoth is "only" about 9-12 feet tall, and possibly even smaller.

Can anybody help?

[Captain Stern]

No, he would be MUCH larger than 12 feet.

Although I think 50 feet is pushing it.

If you look at the picture of the duel by John Howe, Morgoth must be about 15 feet and his left foot could easily cover his neck.

Of course that's just Howe's rendition of the event.

I think he could get away with being around 20 feet and still his foot could cover his neck, of course it could have covered part of his chest too, it doesn't really matter.

As to the shield squashing thing: Well he'd have to use his height and weight to 'squash' Fingolfin or as it says in the book ( bore down upon him with his shield ) I suppose he'd be crouching doing this, personaly I don't see the problem :rollin:

[Inoldonil]

As Melkor of course he could change his form and size at will. As for Morgoth, .... well, I agree with Stern.

One can still cover a neck while covering the chest too. I think John Howe's Morgoth (http://fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/howe/challenge.jpg) is a bit too small though. That foot is not sufficient to make the fallen-hill-like weight on his chest. A common ground between this and Ted Nasmith's hideous Morgoth (http://fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/morgoth.jpg) would probably make for an accurate size.

But maybe Nasmith has got it right, in size.

[easterlinge]

Yeah, I have trouble picturing Morgoth's Duel. If he was darn big, he would have to use a hammer with a looong handle.... like a huge croquet mallet or a golf club.

Or a broom. "Take THAT you pesky Elf !! Eeeeek, it's stung me !!" THWACK THWACK THWACK.

[Lord Xanthyz]

Is it just me, or does the Nasmith version of Morgoth look almost like the Grinch concerning Morgoths face??

[Lord Xanthyz]

While we're still on the topic of size...how tall was Thangorodrim? And how deep did the dungeons and what not of Angband go into the earth?

Morgoth = 35 - 50 ft., so then in order for him to fit "comfortably" into one room of Angband, the ceiling must have been 60 ft tall, eh??

[Tar Elenion]

In RGEO JRRT states that when the Valar took 'human' form they were of majestic but NOT gigantic stature.

[Captain Stern]

That's because the Valar wanted to fit in with the Elves. Morgoth wanted to instill terror in his enemies and subjects alike so he would have undoubtedly taken on a gigantic menacing form.

[Tar Elenion]

Does JRRT say that? or is it your personal opinion?

What JRRT does say (in addition to the statement in RGEO) is that Morgoth was "a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power", see HoME 10. This is completely in keeping with the Valar not taking 'gigantic' forms when assuming 'human' shape.

[easterlinge]

Is it just me, or does the Nasmith version of Morgoth look almost like the Grinch concerning Morgoths fac
[/i]
How Melkor Stole Christmas.....

or

How the Grinch Stole the Family Jewels

:lol:

:rollin:

[Inoldonil]

What's RGEO? If that's true then it does not apply to the fallen Vala Morgoth. Or doesn't seem possible that it would apply to the Morgoth as seen in the published Silmarillion. It's hard though to envision a normal sized Vala or Valië with some of the things they supposedly do in human form. I can't, for example, imagine a seven foot tall Aulë raising a more or less ordinary sized hammer to smite the Seven Fathers.

Just how large is an ogre, exactly?

[Tar Elenion]

RGEO is 'The Road Goes Ever On ' published by JRRT in the 60's and thus arguably more 'canonical' than Silmarillion and other materials published after JRRT's death.
It does note that the Valar could take other 'wholly inhuman' forms. Considering that at one point the Eldar, especially the Noldor (males that is) averaged 7 foot tall, Aule would, in 'human' form, likely be larger. Do we know what form Aule took at the time you are mentioning?
In any event JRRT said their 'human' forms were not gigantic, and that Morgoth was 'ogre' sized. I think there is a reference in Letters as well to the Valar not being tremendous in size when taking on a 'human' fana, though I dont have time to search it out, and could be wrong.
I doubt that a Morgoth dozens of feet tall is what JRRT intended.

[Inoldonil]

Ah, Road Goes Ever On. Yes, I don't have that one. And yes, definitely more 'canonical' than the Silmarillion or 'other materials~', as Tolkien must have felt bound by it (as you know).

There still remains the question of how large an ogre is, and how large 'gigantic' is, exactly.

Looking at descriptions of Morgoth cited on this thread, it's hard to believe anything about his size except that it was very large. Would (say) twenty feet constitute gigantic size, or was Tolkien thinking of a higher measurement that the Valar didn't reach in human form?

I can only imagine a human form of Aulë in that chapter. Human enough at any rate to work in a smithy and lift a hammer, although maybe the story can be regarded as largely influenced by the fancy of the Eldar who heard of it and recorded it, or else (more likely I think, since the Calaquendi heard the tale firsthand) largely influenced by the Númenóreans who put together the Quenta Silmarillion.

There are other descriptions though, which surely puts a large picture in our heads. Ulmo in Of Tuor and His Coming To Gondolin, for example:

And Tuor stood upon the shore, and the sun was like a smoky fire behind the menace of the sky; and it seemed to him that a great wave rose far off and rolled towards the land, but wonder held him, and he remained there unmoved. And the wave came towards him, and upon it lay a mist of shadow. Then suddenly as it drew near it curled, and broke, and rushed forward in long arms of foam; but where it had broken there stood dark against the rising storm a living shape of great height and majesty.

Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk; and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of a mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land. In this manner the Dweller of the Deep, whom the Noldor name Ulmo, Lord of Waters, showed himself to Tuor son of Huor of the House of Hador beneath Vinyamar.

To challenge Tolkien's own words in RGEO would be absurd, so I am not doing that, nor am I calling you a liar. I am merely suggesting 'ogre' and 'gigantic' do not themselves suggest any specific height, and Tolkien was perhaps trying to ensure no one thought the Valar were some eighty feet (or even fifty feet) tall or something when in human likeness.

I do know that in the Letters there is a reference to Sauron in the Second Age being larger than Men, but not giant size, perhaps that is what you're thinking of. I'll check for a Vala quote like that.

RGEO was published some ten years after Tolkien wrote the beginning of his Of Tuor and The Fall of Gondolin, so perhaps he changed his mind or forgot what he wrote, although I still believe the two don't contradict one another.

[Tar Elenion]

Re: Letters
It may well be the 'Sauron mention' that I am remembering (though I think that would go towards showing a common theme).

Ulmo's description does draw a 'large' picture, though as you say they do not contradict each other (after how tall is a 'living shape of great height and majesty'?).
Similarly a ten foot tall person would be 'very large' by any reasonable standard.
One thing to think about would be the simple absurdity of Fingolfin actually engaging in close single combat with a Morgoth that was dozens of feet tall. At the end of the combat Morgoth steps on Fingolfin's throat. How large a foot would a say 30 foot tall Morgoth have? Would he have physically have been able to step on Fingolfin's neck with out covering the upper half of Fingolfin's body? When Morgoth stepped on Fingolfins neck his foot was small enough that Fingolfin could still bring his sword into play and use it.
Of course on the other side Morgoth is also attacked by Thorondor who has a wingspan of 30 fathoms.
However Morgoth, it is implied, intended to commit certain 'misdeeds' upon Luthien. Would that be possible for a 50' or 30' or 20' Morgoth?

I personally could not picture Morgoth as more that 20' or less than 10'. If I were pressed I would think that closer to 10' would be more likely than 20', But this is my own opinion.

[Inoldonil]

However large Ulmo actually appeared to be before Tuor, he was so large that the cloak extracted from his hair easily covered two people. Although I suppose with such a magical event, it hardly matters how tall he is or how large the cloak. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

One thing to think about would be the simple absurdity of Fingolfin actually engaging in close single combat with a Morgoth that was dozens of feet tall. At the end of the combat Morgoth steps on Fingolfin's throat. How large a foot would a say 30 foot tall Morgoth have?

These points have been brought up here. I don't see a problem with a foot (that is said to have a weight like a fallen hill) that covers a person's throat and chest. Look at this (http://fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/morgoth.jpg) Morgoth's feet. He's very large and so are his feet. That foot could reasonably be said to be placed over Fingolfin's neck while covering a bit of his body. But, he is certainly not dozens of feet tall. In fact this Morgoth looks about twenty feet. In retrospect, yeah, you're probably right, he couldn't have been dozens of feet tall.

As for Lúthien, I think it only says that he was filled with an evil lust. He was, for one thing, in the middle of her enchantment. I don't think it very unlikely he could in such a state (or perhaps even not in such a state) desired her, even if he could in no way have her. I am probably pushing it though. If Morgoth's twenty feet tall, Lúthien must be only 1/3 of his height. The height difference I guess of a Dunlending and a Hobbit-woman at the end of the Third Age. In light of your arguments, I think after all that John Howe's Morgoth (http://fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/howe/challenge.jpg) is more likely.

He looks about 14 feet tall, doesn't he? I can't see his foot making out a weight like a fallen hill, but I suppose when you're under that it would seem that way, eh?

You're probably right.

[easterlinge]

"I can't see his foot making out a weight like a fallen hill, but I suppose when you're under that it would seem that way, eh?"

Maybe Morgoth was extremely dense. A spoonful of Morgoth would weigh like a boulder :lol:

[Tar Elenion]

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Quote:
However large Ulmo actually appeared to be before Tuor, he was so large that the cloak extracted from his hair easily covered two people. Although I suppose with such a magical event, it hardly matters how tall he is or how large the cloak.
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From his hair? Luthien made a cloak of her hair, but I thought Ulmo gave Tuor a portion of the cloak he (Ulmo) was wearing.


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Quote:
These points have been brought up here. I don't see a problem with a foot (that is said to have a weight like a fallen hill) that covers a person's throat and chest.
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'Fallen hill' is rather metaphorical. Though of course a 10 or 12 or 15 foot person would likely weigh much more than twice as much as a person half his height.


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Quote:
Look at this Morgoth's feet. He's very large and so are his feet. That foot could reasonably be said to be placed over Fingolfin's neck while covering a bit of his body. But, he is certainly not dozens of feet tall. In fact this Morgoth looks about twenty feet. In retrospect, yeah, you're probably right, he couldn't have been dozens of feet tall.
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I cant really tell by perspective. His feet could well pin the arms. What I do notice is that Fingolfin with Ringil looks like he could be little more effective than a wasp stinging you or me.


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Quote:
As for Lúthien, I think it only says that he was filled with an evil lust. He was, for one thing, in the middle of her enchantment. I don't think it very unlikely he could in such a state (or perhaps even not in such a state) desired her, even if he could in no way have her. I am probably pushing it though. If Morgoth's twenty feet tall, Lúthien must be only 1/3 of his height. The height difference I guess of a Dunlending and a Hobbit-woman at the end of the Third Age.
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I read 'Evil lust' as a euphemism. Though desire is inclusive. :)


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In light of your arguments, I think after all that John Howe's Morgoth is more likely.
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Why do these artists keep making Fingolfin blond?

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Quote:
He looks about 14 feet tall, doesn't he? I can't see his foot making out a weight like a fallen hill, but I suppose when you're under that it would seem that way, eh?
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How much would a 10 or 12 or 14 foot tall heavily built person weigh? Then factor in the armour. Yeah probably would seem that way.

[Inoldonil]

On Ulmo's cloak: Then it seemed to Tuor that Ulmo parted his grey mantle, and cast to him a lappet, and as it fell about him it was for him a great cloak wherein he might wrap himself over all, from head to foot.

I won't reply to other remarks, you seem to share my habit of responding to things as you go along. I've agreed with you, that's the chief point :)

I'll check the Shibboleth of Fëanor to see if it says anything about Fingolfin's hair colour. Blonde is not improbable, his mother was a Vanya, you know. His brother had golden hair.

[Edit: No referrence I can find on his hair colour, although there is a referrence to earlier texts published in Morgoth's Ring that mention Arafinwe's golden hair in a way that seems to contrast his brother, implying maybe his brother had dark hair.]

[Tar Elenion]

A 'lappet' generally is a loose or overhanging piece of a garment (though sometimes used for flesh (e.g. an earlobe)). Thus Ulmo parted his mantle and cast Tuor a portion of it.




While it does not specifically say Fingolfin has dark hair, it does say that he is 'tall and dark' like Finwe. Finwe is described as dark-haired and white-browed. Of course the blond hair is mentioned as being a Finarfinian trait distinct from Fingolfin.

[Finmandos12]

I don't think Morgoth could be that tall. In "Of Beren and Luthien", while Luthien and Beren were in Angband, this is what it says
"Then Luthien catching up her winged robe sprang into the air, and her voice came dropping down like rain into pools, profound and dark. She cast her cloak before his eyes...."

Now I may be wrong, but I didn't think elves could jump thirty feet into the air.

[Inoldonil]

Yeah, and that lappet, which was just, well a lappet for Ulmo, was to Tuor (and Voronwë) a great cloak. That was my chief point (irrelevant now, since I have agreed with you). 'Hair' was a mistake owing to memory (obviously) and my quoting of the passage was not an argument. :)