If you were Saruman, would you have come down from Orthanc?

[The Lady of Ithilien]

After the battle of Helm's Deep and the destruction of Isengard, Gandalf offered Saruman a chance to come down and help them. Saruman refused.

What would you have done, if you were in Saruman's place?

In a discussion about Denethor in the Middle-earth Forum, Afro-Elf got me thinking about how JRRT "boxed in" his characters -- that's one of the primary things a writer has to do with characters, of course: leave them only one inevitable course of action, even if it's an unpleasant or negative one.

On thinking this over in terms of Saruman's choice, what with Isengard in ruins and the Ents installed on his grounds, his armies beaten, his Voice failing to intimidate the King of Rohan, having someone he still thought of as a subordinate member of his own order on the doorstep (someone whom Galadriel had tried to supplant him with on the Council) and who was acting very "officiously," and above all, knowing (as Denethor did) that there was truly no hope of defeating Sauron militarily but believing that the Ring was still in play somewhere, if it could only be located... well, it's difficult to think of any way I might not have acted as Saruman did, had I been in his place (which I wouldn't have been, of course, as I love trees and don't want to take over the world).

[Ñólendil]

I think what this question really comes down to is: would you choose pride, or humility? I am afraid the former would have been my lot.

[WallRocker]

I would have stayed up there laike Sarumon did. He probably still believed that he had some control(even thoough he didn't) and he was probably afraid of the thought of what Sauron would do to him if he left "The Bad Side".

[afro-elf]

It is tough to answer because I know the outcome of Saruman's choices.

I have had my own dark period and may have been swayed to the dark side ,but...I do think that inately I do not have the stomach for THAT kind of cruelity.

I don't think I would have fallen as far as Saruman. Just can not see myself allied to Orcs and STARTING wars.

I think Maglor/Boromir would have been more my fate.

[Arathorn]

If I were Saruman and I did not have as much pride as he, I think I wouldn't even be up there and the Ents wouldn't have attacked Isengard.

But if I did end up there, I'd probably flip a coin.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Pride certainly conquered him during the interview on the steps of Orthanc, and hate, as Tolkien noted. But if that were all it was, wouldn't he have remained the caricature he was when the company of Elves, Hobbits and Gandalf met him and Grima on the road north? Instead there eventually was that interesting confrontation between Frodo and Saruman, where Frodo wouldn't allow the other hobbits to kill him after Saruman's attempt to stab him. "How you have increased my sorrow," said Saruman, or something like that (the third book isn't handy just now), just before the final stroke of the War of the Ring, on Bag End's front step. Rather complex, all in all.

He certainly did believe he had some control left. Gandalf summed him up by saying "He will not serve, only command." And the fear of Sauron was real, underlain by the knowledge of Sauron's military supremacy. Why should he ally himself with ideologists who had gotten lucky and "torn his own house down," but who must ultimately lose the final battle against Evil?

It really was a very hard choice. Tolkien was merciless on some of his characters.

Saruman's a fascinating character and reminds me most closely of modern man, driven crazy by technology and isolated from reality by walls not made by human hands, confusing his isolation and alienation for freedom. His diary (http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/saruman.htm) has recently been found, by the way (though I'm not sure the introduction to it here should be taken very seriously). To paraphrase Gandalf's words to Frodo on the matter of Gollum, it might have happened to some people I know.

[afro-elf]

driven crazy by technology and isolated from reality by walls not made by human hands, confusing his isolation and alienation for freedom.

craziness and isolation are not soley caused by technology.

faith in the pretetnatural works equally well

[francod]

Sauraman had gone to far, he knew there was no redemption. With so much blood on his hands he could not forgive himself. He had turned his back on his whole way of life, goodness, nature, and decentcy. His self-loathing would never permit him tocome down.

[Coney]

I'd have legged it as soon as the Ents turned up!...(you know your doomed when even shrubbery start to attack you).

But no.....it was pride, arrogance and hate that held Saruman to his tower.

The same emotions that caused his death at the Shire...........after all, he could have wandered/lived anywhere in ME if only he hadn't become such a twisted and vengeful creature.

[durin's bane]

Saruman stayed in Orthanc because he was too proud and full of hatred. I'd have come down, but I think my own personal question would be "Would I even be up there in the first place?" It's a bit of a hard decision. I'd come down in the end, when all seemed lost, but if I were this big successful, powerful wizard, at rivalry with Sauron, well, I'd stay. :D

[diannah]

Part of me says that I wouldn't have even been in that position, but another part of me says that I would have stayed up there but my outcome would have been different. Eventually I would go over to the good side but not right then at my time of humiliation. Gandalf was acting just a tad condescending.

[Fingolfin_1st]

it is in my belief that once you choose a side you should stick with it to the end.saruman broke my belief by going from head of the white order to the darkside with sauron but i still respect him as he did not come down from the tower to beg forgiveness which he would not recieve.

if that was me in orthanc when my army of 10000 left for helms deep i would have immidiately begun building another as a reserve.even though saruman had full confidence that his army would crush the men of rohan i would not have been so short sighted.isengard was left undefended and the ents had such an easy attack.

i would have had lookouts on the wall and a host of flame archers at the ready and the momoent that i heard my army had been defeated i would march north with my reserve army and destroy the shire a last act of malice before the end.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Er, Fingolfin_1st, is that fiery writing I see on that plain gold ring you're wearing? :) (Just kidding.)Gandalf was acting just a tad condescending.That's an interesting point. He was rather inflammatory a couple of times after his return...certainly with Denethor in Minas Tirith (pushing him to and over the brink maybe?) and now that you mention it, with Saruman, too. He could just as well have broken Saruman's staff first to establish that their professional ranking had changed, and then offered him the deal, in which case surrendering the Keys of Orthanc (which technically Gandalf and no one else present except Aragorn, who could hardly claim it then, had the right to ask for, as Orthanc was a possession of Gondor) would have seemed perfectly reasonable.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I hardly think that offering forgiveness and a new chance to someone is condescending. But anyway:

Gandalf gave Saruman a chance to come down of his own free will, with what power he had intact; same thing with his dignity. He was basically giving him a chance to start over. When Saruman refused, Gandalf took away what little he had left, and sent him on his way as a beggar.

[Nurvingiel]

If I made the choices Saruman did, I don't know if I'd be inclined to work for others when I was used to, and enjoyed, being in control.

So the question is, at what point could Saruman have turned back? Or was he already too far gone by the time people found out he was actually evil?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Since Gandalf gave him the choice at Orthanc, I assume that he could have gone back then.

[FrodoFriend]

As soon as I saw a Hobbit, I'd be outta there and after him.... :D

FrodoFriend terrorizing Merry and Pip: Take me to your leader!!
M and P: Who??
FF: The good lookin' chap with the engagement ring!!

[The Lady of Ithilien]

So the question is, at what point could Saruman have turned back? Or was he already too far gone by the time people found out he was actually evil?I agree with Francod -- he was deep into self-loathing at that point.I hardly think that offering forgiveness and a new chance to someone is condescending.Depends on how it's done. True, and I'd overlooked this, Gandalf did first ask Saruman "What have you to say that you did not say at our last meeting?" But then he laughed at him, and said he "should have been the king's jester and earned (his) bread, and stripes too, by mimicking (the king's) counselors."

However, on going back and reading that over, I see now he had to do that, to break Saruman's spell over the other listeners. And I suppose it wouldn't have been too hard for Saruman, in his right mind, to notice that Gandalf was wearing white now.

But that demand that Saruman "surrender" the Key of Orthanc, which Gandalf had no right to, was a bit much.

[Nurvingiel]

I disagree with you on that last point, I don't think Gandalf was trying to get Orthanc for himself, he just didn't want Saruman to have it to fall back on if needed, and use it as a base for evil works, like he was doing before.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Saruman had basically been overthrown; his armies were slaughtered, his walls (though not his tower) were demolished, his staff was broken. I think that he was pretty well overthrown, and Gandalf, esp as his superior, had the right to demand the Key.

[Wayfarer]

I think that's a badly worded question. If you were Saruman, you would obviously do exactly what he did. The better question is: What would you do in his place.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I think that's a badly worded question. If you were Saruman, you would obviously do exactly what he did. The better question is: What would you do in his place. Clean the carpets, close up the machine shops and chem labs, bring in my own furniture, put up new curtains as well as a "Keep Out: GrÃ*ma, this means YOU!" sign, and so forth. (Sorry, Wayfarer, I couldn't help it. :) )I don't think Gandalf was trying to get Orthanc for himself, he just didn't want Saruman to have it to fall back on if needed, and use it as a base for evil works, like he was doing before.Agreed, he didn't want Orthanc for himself. and it was indeed a dangerous property to have to deal with at that point, even after the Ents wrecked the outer parts, but I think he knew as well as Saruman did that he didn't have the right to its keys, and also knew that it would set S. off if he asked for them. It wasn't yet Aragorn's time, but he could have had Saruman give them to Treebeard, as he eventually did, thus also giving him an opportunity to apologize to his neighbors.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Why didn't he have the right? He was the head of the Order now, and also a high power amongst those who overthrew or conquered Saruman. Seems to me like he certainly did have the right.

[Wayfarer]

I think you're asking the wrong question again. The issue isn't whether Gandalf had the right to demand his key, it's whether saruman had the right to keep it.

Remember, he was given the key to orthanc by the very people who he was working to destroy. If that isn't grounds for an eviction, I don't know what is.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Sure, Gandalf had the right to break Saruman's staff, if Saruman didn't clean up his act quickly (and he didn't). But Orthanc, now, that was a different matter:...<Saruman> took up his abode in Isengard. For this, Beren, Steward of Gondor, gave him leave, for Gondor still claimed Isengard as a fortress of its realm, and not part of Rohan. Beren also gave into Saruman's keeping the keys of Orthanc."
The Lord of the Rings,, Appendix A, Part IISaruman hadn't made a move towards Gondor yet, so there go those grounds for eviction. :)

Saruman had, of course, abrogated his right to Isengard by his treason, especially as it had been found out. But Gandalf was never the agent of Gondor, and certainly not at that point; indeed, he and Denethor were snarling at other most all the time when he did go down there. He could neither rightfully take the keys nor promise to give them back again, if S. behaved himself.

Of course, one could argue that Gandalf was the agent of the Valar, who outranked the kings, let alone the Stewards. But I think they should have gone into Treebeard's keeping, or at least that of Gondor's ally, Rohan (i.e., King Théoden).

[Nurvingiel]

Why wouldn't Gandalf be a good keeper? He's responsible, wise, and not overly ambitious.

True he hadn't yet moved against Gondor, but he might as well have because (1) he attacked Rohan, Gondor's allies, and (2) he was in league with Sauron, Gondor's enemy.

He was a traitor, that's good enough for me. Besides, he was allowed to go free, even if it was staff-less and Orthanc-less. I think that was pretty nice.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

About Gandalf; he wasn't an agent of Gondor, but he WAS an agent of the Valar, and I believe Letters says he was indirectly an agent of Iluvatar. If you ask me, that is DARN fine credentials. That would basically give him the authority for mostly anything, as long as he stayed within the guidelines of his superiors, in my opinion.

EDIT: Gah! Somehow missed the last paragraph in LoI's post! :o

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Why wouldn't Gandalf be a good keeper? He's responsible, wise, and not overly ambitious.He'd be a terrific keeper. However, he did not have the right; Gondor clearly did. And in part Gandalf was fighting, and had always fought, to preserve everywhere that concept of right superseding might. Yet in that instance, he did what he did because he had the power to do so, not because it was right.

I'm not saying he was bad to do that, BTW. I think he acted decisively to end the threat, and it worked. It just illustrates, very subtly, the power of evil to tarnish good, even in defeat.

True he hadn't yet moved against Gondor, but he might as well have because (1) he attacked Rohan, Gondor's allies, and (2) he was in league with Sauron, Gondor's enemy.Well, not quite totally in league with Sauron, at least in his own mind (Sauron had trapped him, though, of course). He had kept an army not yet joined to Sauron's, and had waged war on his own.

A third possibility was that he was in league, or planned to be in league with Denethor (after presenting him with the fait accompli of a vanquished Rohan to force him to turn to Saruman for help), thus thinking he could have wriggled out of any commitments he may have made to Sauron and still come out on top. And such a partnership wouldn't have violated the terms of the lease at all. :)

He was a traitor, that's good enough for me. Besides, he was allowed to go free, even if it was staff-less and Orthanc-less. I think that was pretty nice. Yes it was. They even spoke him fair when they met him on the trip north.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien

I'm not saying he was bad to do that, BTW. I think he acted decisively to end the threat, and it worked. It just illustrates, very subtly, the power of evil to tarnish good, even in defeat.


That's very interesting! Do you really think Gandalf was slightly corrupted? I find that hard to believe, but it's possible.

Maybe he was corrupted in that he was forced to use might instead of right. Even though, Aragorn could have taken the Key afterwards.

One theme that comes up in the Sword and the Stone is Might for Right. Maybe it comes up in LotR as well.

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien

A third possibility was that he was in league, or planned to be in league with Denethor (after presenting him with the fait accompli of a vanquished Rohan to force him to turn to Saruman for help), thus thinking he could have wriggled out of any commitments he may have made to Sauron and still come out on top. And such a partnership wouldn't have violated the terms of the lease at all. :)

I'm really liking your subtle ideas here.

[Narsil's Master]

i believe i would stay in orthanic until the ents left and then run as fast as the wind!

[Guardian_of_the_Forest]

If I were me, I may have come down. As Saruman, I definitely would have stayed.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Do you really think Gandalf was slightly corrupted?Well, it's a little difficult to explain. Gandalf was the White now, of course, and any "grayness" he may have had in him had passed (note in the description of Saruman that he has some black hairs in his beard).

Say, rather, that Gandalf the Maia was resident in Arda where the will of Melkor the Vala, "the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä," ("The Silmarillion," end of Chapter 7), still remained, as did the effects of his lies, and Gandalf like all others was vulnerable to its machinations, no matter what he did.

Maybe he was corrupted in that he was forced to use might instead of right.Yes.

Even though, Aragorn could have taken the Key afterwards.Well, not at the time of confrontation with Saruman, as he first had to win the kingdom(s), but certainly later. It's interesting how JRRT set up the actual sequence of Aragorn's finally getting the Keys, starting with Gandalf:

"...But the Tower of Orthanc now goes back to the King, to whom it belongs. Though maybe he will not need it."

"That will be seen later," said Aragorn. "But I will give to Ents all this valley to do with as they will, so long as they keep a watch upon Orthanc and see that none enter it without my leave."

"It is locked," said Treebeard. "I made Saruman lock it and give me the keys. Quickbeam has them."

Quickbeam bowed....and handed to Aragorn two great black keys of intricate shape, joined by a ring of steel. "Now I thank you once more," said Aragorn, "and I bid you farewell...."

With Saruman now out of the way, here's Gandalf suddenly pointing out, again in Aragorn's presence, that Orthanc belongs to the King. A new thought comes up: maybe it was less corruption, though certainly that possibility was always present, and more Gandalf's awareness that it was not yet Aragorn's time and so he was shielding the man at first.

It's also interesting that Treebeard didn't hand the Keys over to Aragorn himself but delegated that to a subordinate. Very symbolic of the different types of "ownership" of the area.

Can't resist it:I'm really liking your subtle ideas here. Do not meddle in the affairs of transcriptionists, for they are subtle and quick to anger. Well...subtle, anyway. :)

[Evenstar1400]

if i were saruman, id be too afraid of the ents to leave the building

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I disagree with you on that last point, I don't think Gandalf was trying to get Orthanc for himself, he just didn't want Saruman to have it to fall back on if needed, and use it as a base for evil works, like he was doing before.

If Gandalf had wanted to be truly superior than he would have tried to help Saruman instead of turning him out of Orthanc. Because if you're looking at it from the 'superior' perspective then I think that is how Gandalf would have been superior. He was just condescending in my point of view. Maybe if Saruman kept Orthanc he wouldn't have gone and terrorized the Shire. There's not much he could do otherwise without his staff and Sauron.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
He'd be a terrific keeper. However, he did not have the right; Well, not quite totally in league with Sauron, at least in his own mind (Sauron had trapped him, though, of course). He had kept an army not yet joined to Sauron's, and had waged war on his own.

I thought that Saruman was Sauron's lieutenant, wasn't he? And then he betrayed Sauron and went out on his own.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I thought that Saruman was Sauron's lieutenant, wasn't he? And then he betrayed Sauron and went out on his own. More like he was on his own to begin with, along with the other Istari and their chief. He was good and then gradually warped into being a traitor to the good guys.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I know he was on his own in the beginning, but I could have sworn that he became Sauron's lieutenant, and then struck out on his own. :confused:

[FrodoFriend]

In the book Saruman never sided with Sauron; he was working for his own ends and his own power the whole time. Only in the movie they changed it (possibly to make it less complicated, and to show that the Wise can also be corrupted...).

I don't think Gandalf wanted Orthanc for himself. What would he do with it? He had to be mobile at that time, not sitting in Isengard. He was needed in Gondor and in Rohan. I think he only wanted the key to Orthanc so that he could expel the danger on Rohan's flank for good by installing someone loyal. Then he would still have gone off on the same route he took, to Gondor and the Pelennor Fields.

[FrodoFriend]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I think that's a badly worded question. If you were Saruman, you would obviously do exactly what he did. The better question is: What would you do in his place.

I'd probably stick to the 'Bring me the Halflings!' part of the plan . . . :D

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

I'm just saying that yes Saruman did have some rights to Orthance. Without magic (kept in his staff) he could do nothing and probably would have stewed up there with Wormtongue. What can I say? He was a ruined wizard and would remain so. Everyone deserves a little dignity. Besides, I am still mad beyond belief at what he did to the Shire! He probably wouldn't have done that if he was left in Orthanc.