This git is trying to convince me that Faramir is a prince

[FiddlestickBundy]

I am having a contest of wits with a witless and misinformed gentleman who is convinced that Faramir was a prince by blood. I am quite certain that this is not the case -- it is stated in The Two Towers that Aragorn bade him accept a princedom and guard the realm of Ithilien -- but this bloke will not have it.

Do any of you here posses the ammunition I seek to drive this insipid wretch into the ground?

Thanks in advance,

Fiddlestick

[Cirdan]

Since he was part of a stewardship he would not be a prince which is a hereditary line of the royal family.

Wouldn't your situation be a contest of wit?:D

[Nibs]

Has he read (or mis-read, perhaps) The Lord of the Rings? But, then again, you may need a dictionary to sufficiently define Steward for the chap.

And I'm rather certain that Faramir was given charge over Ithilien in The Return of the King, not The Two Towers... since you both seem to be wrong in your own right (no pun intended!), I don't think you should "seek to drive this insipid wretch into the ground", as insipid as he may be.

[Ñólendil]

After Boromir's death, Faramir became the Captain of the White Tower and the heir to the Stewardship of Gondor. After the return of the King, Faramir remained Steward, but also became Prince of Ithilien. The rest is semantics.

[Elfhelm]

Aragorn made him a prince.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The line of the Stewards was a noble bloodline, and they acted, for all purposes, as the kings. So I would call Faramir a prince.

[ArwenEvenstar]

i wouldn't consider him a prince before he met Aragorn but after Aragorn gave him pricnedom(sp??) of Ithilien then I would

[squinteyedsoutherner]

If you look up "prince" in any decent dictionary you will notice that the word has several meanings. By some, Faramir is definitely a prince, by others he is not. The issue is what your friend means by "prince". Faramir is not of the old King's bloodline(one meaning). But he was clearly next in line (Aragorn aside) to function in all intents and purposes as a "King" upon his father's death (another meaning). It all depends on what your friend is "really" trying to argue when he uses the term "prince" and to which point in the narrative he is refering. Afterall, by the end of the story there is no question that Faramir is a Prince.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
If you look up "prince" in any decent dictionary you will notice that the word has several meanings. By some, Faramir is definitely a prince, by others he is not. The issue is what your friend means by "prince". Faramir is not of the old King's bloodline(one meaning). But he was clearly next in line (Aragorn aside) to function in all intents and purposes as a "King" upon his father's death (another meaning). It all depends on what your friend is "really" trying to argue when he uses the term "prince" and to which point in the narrative he is refering. Afterall, by the end of the story there is no question that Faramir is a Prince. Well, not really, because FiddlestickBundy said:

Originally posted by FiddlestickBundy
I am having a contest of wits with a witless and misinformed gentleman who is convinced that Faramir was a prince by blood.

[emphasis added]Apparently, if the fellow maintained that Faramir was a "prince by blood", which can hardly be mistaken for steward in that diction, he is indeed incorrect... of course, I think that would be a small error compared to mixing up the books... hm?

But everyone's imperfect. And me not the most. Er... least.

[Lollypopgurl]

Well, I wouldn't call him a prince by blood.

[Wayfarer]

He did have more numenorean blood than most, which made him more 'regal', but I cannot remember if he was a descendant of the line of elendil.

[Ñólendil]

*nods* All the Stewards were descended from Elendil in some obscure way -- the answer is in the Appendices ("Númenorean Kings", I guess).

[Elvellon]

It all comes to what title the sons of the Steward had. In a feudal society hereditary noble titles were to be expected.

Apparently the eldest son of the steward had the hereditary title of Captain of the White Tower, (as Ñolendil said), but I believe it is not unthinkable that they were also called “Princes of Gondor,” and indeed it may be likely, since they were the heirs of the ruling steward. The reason why it is likely is that, usually, the heirs of the suzerain of a kingdom couldn’t have a lesser title than that of other nobles of the kingdom. Indeed, in many countries (but not all) the title of prince was reserved to the heirs of the suzerain.

Nevertheless, as far as I know, Tolkien never established the titles of the House of Hurin (the House of the Stewards), so no categorical affirmation can be made.

[Cirdan]

Prince is usually reserved for the sons of the king and maybe nephews. Faramir could have some royal blood, but so could many others. Prince Imrahil is "of high blood" and "a kinsmen of the Lord", so more distant relations are princes, too, in ME. Faramir is a Captain of Gondor, whatever his bloodline may be, until he is entitled by Elessar.

[Ñólendil]

I think the bottom line is that Captain Faramir of Minas Tirith became Prince Faramir of Emyn Arnen.