Viggo Mortensen Puts His Foot in It

[bropous]

http://oregonmag.com/Viggo.htm
http://www.lucianne.com/threads2.asp?artnum=266229

[The above links are to a Larry Elder article outlining Viggo Mortensen's comments, the second to a news commentary page with one or two insightful refutations....]

Well, well, well. What is it with some actors that they cannot see past the inner walls of their own lower intestine when it comes to issues of right and wrong?

Case in Point: Viggo Mortensen's recent interview.

In it, he blames the US for just about every evil in the world, says the United States is the antagonist in the War on Terror, and actually states, regarding Afghanistan, that US acts like the servant of Sauron, totally IGNORING the Orcish horde who kept the women in that nation prisoner for so many years and the improvement in the lives of the average Afghan since the US-supported civil war.

Folks, YES, the United States HAS made mistakes in its history, but in the balance, has done FAR greater good for the average world citizen than the collective efforts of all other nations. When food is scarce, when earthquakes strike, when typhoons wreak havoc, it is the United States that is there first with relief for people in need. AND, when people are oppressed, butchered, repressed, tortured and abused, do they look to the EU flag, or the flag of Australia or Britain or France or New Zealand? Nope. It is the Star Spangled Banner to which they cry for relief. At times, that cry is heard and answered, as it has been in Afghanistan and will be shortly answered in Iraq. I guess some folks won;t care about the lives of others until someone close to them is butchered at the hands of a terrorist.

Of course, this will be the perfect opportunity for the America-haters, lacking in facts and in analytical ability who will simply spew the tired rhetoric of the socialist appeasers of tyrants, that we should turn our backs on the world and just let the Orcs win. Viggo Mortensen, sadly, is of those ranks.

So. Will I boycott the remaining two films, as some are suggesting? Nope. I can put aside an actor's personal opinions and admire his work, and besides, it would take a great and unbearable affront to keep me from seeing the next two films. In our nation, there IS room for difference of opinion, and of course, when some moron like Mortensen starts flapping his gums without facts to back up his mindless drivel, it is the right of those who disagree to point out the logical fallacies.

Do we string him up? Nope. Do we throw him out of the country? Nope. Do we burn down his house and kill his children? No way. But I can guarantee you that aside from Lord of the Rings, I'll not attend another film he is in. That will not hurt his pocketbook in the least, and his career will continue on for a long time, but I'll not add my measly thrity-five cents to his wallet.

The United States as an agent of Sauron? Mortensen, you need to read the book again, bro. Y'ain't getting it.

[bropous]

Slight amplification:

I do not hate Viggo Mortensen.

I DO think he does not fully understand:
1. American history;
2. Geopolitics;
3. The indepsensability of oil to modern technology;
4. The true nature of Sauron and Orcs;
5. The true threat which fundamentalist Islam poses to the West;
6. What life is really like under a TRUE tyrant;
7. How offhand comments by one actor can affect the paychecks of all involved in a film;
8. How appeasing dictators actually ends up in more people being killed than in wars of liberation;
9. The TRUE motivations behind our actions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, North Korea; and
10. The the costs of inaction are, many times, far greater than the regrettable costs of action.

However, I DO think that Viggo could really think about his positions, look at the evidence to the contrary, and come to a real understanding of just how wrong and incorrect his comments in the interview are.

Folks, we Mooters hail from MANY nations, and something also binds us besides our love of Tolkien: The threat to each and every one of us from despots and lunatics who would love nothing better than slaughtering hundreds of innocent civilians intentionally to make a point about a struggle with the West which petered out right before Columbus' voyages to America.

There IS evil in the world, ladies and gentlemen, and though the Mouth of Sauron speaks in dulcet tones of his master's deep abiding love for peace and serenity, in the tunnels below Barad-Dur the Orcs breed like cockroaches and train in suicide tactics, whilst Minas Tirith, the Last Hope of the West, is assailed from without and within by servants of the Dark Lord, many wearing the livery of Gondor itself.

And, as he did in Middle Earth, Sauron will fail in our lands as well.

ALL of us, Mooters, are the United Lords of the West. I raise a toast to the victory of good over evil, and to the victory of truth over lies.

[bropous]

Here is the text of my email to Larry Elder:

==========================================

I also take humbrage with Viggo Mortensen's comments on Charlie Rose. I think his comments and attitudes bespeak a very limited understanding, not only of American history and geopolitics, and not only of Tolkien's works and attitudes, but of simple right and wrong.

I direct you to my own comments regarding Mr. Mortensen's babble, which are posted on a site dedicated to discussing Tolkien: http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6307 . It is an international forum, and though I am sure the majority of the comments which will be launched in response will agree with Mortensen, I do feel that some things DID need to be said, and know there will be at least one or two of my fellow Tolkienites who will take umbrage with Mortensen's opinions.

However, Mr. Elder, I will not be joining you in boycotting the films. One actor, short-sighted and mindless in his opinions as Mortensen may be, won't dissuade me from seeing films I have been waiting twenty-five plus years to see. I do not think, in any reach of the imagination, that Mortensen speaks for the majority of the actors nor of the thousands of people involved in crafting these films. I admire your dedication to those who have been butchered at the very hands of those Orcs whom Mortensen seems to champion, and it will be of not small consequence to me as I see the remaining two films. To me, the next two films are an excellent refutation of Mortensen's opinions in and of themselves. The United States a servant of Sauron?

The United States as Gondor, more like. And Mortensen the Mouth of Sauron at the Morannon.

I do appreciate your writing the article, and I agree that Mortensen really misses Tolkien's whole theme of the book(s). The best summarization of what the purpose of the book(s) came from old John Roald Ruel himself, from "Letters of JRR Tolkien", and which I use as the signature line on all of my postings regarding Tolkien:

[attached signature]

[Dunadan]

I looked at both of these links and could find zero words (count them) quoted directly from Mortensen, just someone's second-hand report, which makes me deeply suspicious of it.

[Nibs]

Junky "Charlie Rose" website will only let me purchase a tape of the show... I just wanna read a transcript! Oh well.

U.S.A.! U.S.A.!

[Gerbil]

Erm Bropous, aren't you forgetting the fact that the Taliban were in power because America put them there?

America does 'good' as, at best, a side-effect to their own personal goals.

EG take Colombia. The US is pouring money into it to stop the terrorists and drugs imported into America.
Now, of course, this is a 'good thing', no-one will deny that.
But, look at the motivation.

Is it a generous gesture for the war on terror?

Of course not.

They claim they are doing it to prvent the drugs getting shipped into the States. What a load of rubbish. This is basic supply and demand stuff. If the drugs don't come from Colombia, they'll come from elsewhere. Surely a better route is to educate Americans to not take drugs? Prevention is better than 'cure'.

It's actually about the huge oil reserves and pipelines in South America, which of course mostly benefit the States.

Saying they 'do more good than bad' may well be true, but I used to get told:

'It's better to do the wrong thing for the right reasons, than the right thing for the wrong reasons'.

Ain't old sayings great? And easy to use as part of an arguement too ;)

Anyway point is, firstly, anyone who thinks America ever does anything other than advance it's own agenda is either very very blinkered, or American.
Secondly, their foreign policy backfires so damn often it'd be funny if it wasn't for all the lives at stake.

Finally, a tip for Americans travelling abroad:

Say you are Canadian - helps immensely ;)

[Gerbil]

PS - to actually be on thread, using ME as an analogy at any stage is silly. Bropous says Viggo is silly for doing so (or is it for doing so and getting it 'wrong'? ;) ) then goes on and mentions:
And, as he did in Middle Earth, Sauron will fail in our lands as well.

ALL of us, Mooters, are the United Lords of the West. I raise a toast to the victory of good over evil, and to the victory of truth over lies. Apart from it's cornyness, isn't this buying into the same thing you've just slated?

[Gerbil]

As another quick comment since this appears to be the LotR political thread ;)

Let's not forget that americans are using this 'war on terror' to justify otherwise unforgivable atrocities.

Let's say, completely at random ;), oooh I dunno.

How about Israel and Palestine?

As soon as this 'war on terror' was declared, Isreal declared Palestinian factions were terrorists, which allowed them to go in and kill 'em, and try (and fail) to push them out. Now for some strange feeling, can't think why, I feel that the US backs Israel. Oh blimey, that's because it does! The US Jews are a powerful hidden current in US politics, and they are helping this sort of thing to happen, which is why America, with all of it's 'influence' over Israel, could do no more than issue a few 'please stop being naughty' comments about the situation.

Compare this enthusiasm on a potential state of war with, say, Iraq. Not that I'm saying the situations are the same, but see the differences of approach between a scenario which is quite clearly anti-american-interest (Iraq and it's oil) and one which is quietly pro-american (Israel and it's US backing). If it doesn't make you think, it should do.

I could go on, but what's the point?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Viggo is enitled to his own freedom of speech. I believe thta though America has doen soem great things for this world, it is like all other countries in the fact that it has done many evil things and still continues to do so. It is like all countires, mainly looking out for what is best for America, and every country does so and rightly so. America is a lot more 'democratic' then most countries, there are a lot more black/asian poliaticians in the American palriament then in the British one, but I believe that the war on Iraq is in the main over oil. I would prefer it if a peaceful solution was resolved, but with George Bush in charge, it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

[Gerbil]

Viggo is enitled to his own freedom of speech.A beautiful line I must admit - isn't this one of the things American freedom is based on? ;)

It is like all countires, mainly looking out for what is best for America, and every country does so and rightly so.Not strictly 'rightly so', and indeed in these troubled times countries need to join together for the future good more and more, eg the war on terror, environment etc (which the US is decidely crap on - Europe makes resolutions for a cleaner environment, and the US basically sticks it's fingers up and says 'we'll do what we want'). Not that Europe is something to be proud of of course, the recent oil spill was a disgrace, and just shows what happens when countries 'look out for themselves' without thinking about the bigger picture. Ah well, it backfired on the Spanish, so maybe next time they won't be so hasty to be selfish.

America is a lot more 'democratic' then most countries, there are a lot more black/asian poliaticians in the American palriament then in the British one,I don't believe this matters particularly. This is edging towards the PC-ness that is currently stupidly over-done in the UK. Who cares what colour people are? Cos if you don't, it shouldn't matter what colour people are in parliament or any other job - as long as they do it.
I remember a few years ago in the US, good old affirmitive action in California. A law to try to rid racism in the workplace. Actually ended up being more racist than the rules before it. Nice eh?
As for the US 'democracy', that's a farce really, like everywhere. The difference with the US is it's open about it. Things called lobbying. See what kind of resources the NRA has at it's disposal, and you'll see how a minority can band together to overthrow the usually silent majority.but I believe that the war on Iraq is in the main over oil. I would prefer it if a peaceful solution was resolved, but with George Bush in charge, it doesn't look like that is going to happen. Well said. Trouble is, it's gone so far I can't see how a war can be avoided. Remember that Saddam Hussien is over 60, and has no natural 'heir' to carry on ruling Iraq. I wouldn't put it past him to wage war on us lot just as a way of going out 'in style'.

[Entlover]

Many of us Americans are praying for peace - we do not want Iraqui civilians hurt any more than they do -- but not at the cost of "peace in our time" appeasement - tyrants have to be resisted or they just keep getting worse. The day I was born, several thousand (I used to know the exact number) Jews died in concentration camps. I know that because the same number died every day that month. - and the month before, and the month after . . .

A war can easily be avoided. Saddam just has to comply with UN requests. Either destroy or enumerate his weaponry.

If the incipient war is over oil, I think most Americans are unaware of it. It would be over a crazy Hitler-type stock-piling nuclear and biological weapons.

It's very disappointing that Viggo is saying stuff like this (if true) when he is representing the lords of the West . . . if the actor playing Grima were to say it, it'd be less upsetting. Let's hope Viggo rethinks his position.

[Starr Polish]

I personally do not think that war is a sufficient means of maintaining peace (du-uh...), though it would have been nice if Viggo had said how he thinks America should have responded to the attacks. He said we should have, but gives no alternative solution.

Viggo is entitled to freedom of speech, and so am I, which means I could complain about his opinions. Because that's just what they are, opinions.

If someone that wasn't famous made a similar insight would you boycott them, and how? Just a thought.

Also, and this is not meant to be derogatory, if you truly feel THAT strongly about his opinion, why not boycott LOTR as well? I'm aware that you are a huge fan, but that's like PETA people saying "All animals should be freed and we shouldn't kill them" and then killing a mosquito as it bites them. Mosquitoes have to eat too, y'know. I don't know if that made the point I wanted it to...hmm.

[Nibs]

Kind of odd how it turns so quickly from what was intended to be a tame tirade against Viggo's supposed comments to varying complaints about America... is that to say that you agree with what Mr. Mortenson has been rumored to say?

Golly, any one can dig up crap about where you live, but it takes real character to see the good, especially when you live on another continent.

I'll see that toast and raise you a solo of "God Bless America", bropous :) .

[Starr Polish]

I never said I didn't love the U.S.A., in fact, I'm quite aware of how lucky I am to live here (probably not aware as I could be). I thank God I was born here.

Personally, I think this thread should be moved to GM, but that's all for now.

[WallRocker]

I don't think I'll ever be able to see a film with Viggo in it again either. I will watch the remaining movies, but nothing else. However, I was wondering what the verification of this article was. They don't show an actual interview, so this could just be one side of the story. Even if it's only half true, I won't be able to support Viggo, but I would like to see Viggo's side of the story.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
I never said I didn't love the U.S.A., in fact, I'm quite aware of how lucky I am to live here (probably not aware as I could be). I thank God I was born here.

I actually began my post when Inderjit Sanghera's was the last... I didn't mean you at all... in fact as far as I was concerned at the time, you didn't exist. And now everything I say pertains to you? What an ego you have! :D

Or were you even referring to me? :rolleyes:

[crickhollow]

Gerbs:Erm Bropous, aren't you forgetting the fact that the Taliban were in power because America put them there?
Actually, that's a misconception. The US was involved in helping Afganistan "freedom fighters" stave off the Russians in the 80s, but the government that was supported by the US during that time was overthrown by the Taliban in 1997.

[Elfhelm]

My wife told me some actor was anti-gay based on indirect quotes and media hullabulloo. I didn't believe it. I imagine the quotes were out of context, and since the guy was Australian she should take that cultural element into the picture. But she was refusing to watch his movies anymore. Finally I begged her to go see a recent one when it came out and the guy wore pantyhose and had a line that basically went "I'm gay, very gay!". Then she realized that the media feeds on mania caused by misrepresented quotes. Now it's OK to watch Mad Max again.

I bet it will prove to be similar nonsense in this case.

I back the UN regarding Iraq. Bush may not lilke having to work with the UN on this issue, but the "rule of law" can't just be something you blurt out when someone ticks you off. You have to live by it, too.

I don't have a problem with Brits who think we're all inorant baboons here. Many of us have the impression that they are all snobs.

Hey, will you boycott all of Barbara Streisand's movies, too? Or Paul Newman? There are a lot of US citizen actors opposed to unprovoked attack on Iraq. No need to single out the Brits or Aussies.

[Elfhelm]

http://oregonmag.com/PBSIslam.htm

I must warn you. If you go to this website you will find hatred aplenty.

The people who run Oregon Magazine are the same ones who want to destroy Oregon forever. They are the Sarumans of Oregon. They talk sweet and promise taxcuts, but they want to tear down the beautiful forests. They have been a thorn in the side of middle of the rooad and left-leaning Oregonians for many years.

And to top it off, their leaders are going to jail.

They fake signatures on referendums. They pour many times the legal limit of money into changing the laws to suit their destruction of our beautiful state. They are going to jail for it.

They are trying to tell us what is right because we are all too stupid to figure that out for ourselves. The other article link I just posted will give you an inkling of what kind of losers these phony hate-mongers really are.

Believe their honey-tongues at your own risk.

[bropous]

Gerbil, your assertion that the United States installed the Taliban into power is not based in fact. I WILL deny that the "war on Drugs" is a GOOD thing. As far as humor and American foreign policy and lives being at stake, you're RIGHT. And it ain't funny when American foreign policy is not used to help liberate oppressed people, and that when it IS used to help oppressed people, e.g. Afghanistan and Iraq, it is belittled from outside and within by people who don't even have the basis of comprehension of the full picture to even formulate a coherent argument against it.

Furthermore, "PS - to actually be on thread, using ME as an analogy at any stage is silly. Bropous says Viggo is silly for doing so (or is it for doing so and getting it 'wrong'?" YES, it is trying to use a Tolkien analogy and getting it WRONG, Gerbil.

Israel creates atrocities, huh? Gee, I guess you know nothing about the HORDES of suicide bombers vomiting forth from the self-imposed impoverished "refugee camps" who INTENTIONALLY attack women and children, compared to the ISraeli military, which bends over BACKWARDS to avoid civilian casulaties even when their own civilian population is under terror attack? Have you no knowledge of history? Are you unaware of the hijackings the PLO have undertaken for decades, the 1972 Munich murders of Israeli ATHLETES, the hijackings of cruise liners and bombings and poisonings and stabbings and murder the Palestinians have been using against Israeli CITIZENS, Gerbil? My, you are ignorant of history.

As for the US attacking Iraq, of course facile dolts will join the ranks of the mind-numbed greenie peaceniks who want to claim that the prime motivation is oil. It ain't. It is about nuclear, biological and chemical weapons being developed by the Iraqis and used against the US OR its allies, and yes, Gerbil, clutch the pearls, that includes the Israelis. Sadam IS sitting astride quite vital oil shipping routes, though, I will give you that, and plenty of those routes are under threat from SCUDs, FROGs and Al-Husayni missiles, and Sadam has already proved in the past his willingness to use such weapons, even against innocent civilians.

What is it with this mindset which cannot EVER side with the innocent civilians? Why must the socialist appeasers always be drawn to the worst choice of two? Why is it that they can NEVER see the justification for the US to use military force to liberate people, and yet can turn their eyes to the MILLIONS of innocents who get butchered when the United States turns away and takes their advice to refrain from getting involved?

As for your comment about U.S. Jews, I find that particularly revolting, young man, and a shocking display of bigotry and stereotyping. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes, Mortenson DOES have a right to speak his opinion, Gerbil. I don't slam him for voicing his mind. I DO slam him for the inability to recognize the difference between good and evil, and his obvious lack of compassion for the suffering the people of Afghanistan and Iraq have endured, and his limited conception of how the lives of those common folk will be improved by the United States taking military action, removing the threat to the general populace, and helping install REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLICS in those nations.

Contrary to the bleatings of some, the United States is not some hideous power-grubbing grasping monster seeking only its own enrichment. The United States DOES happen to be a representative republic, and though at times strays from its original and most important intent, has proved to this planet again and again that we, the cast-offs of ALL nations, have the dedication and care for our fellow man that we will NOT sit idly by and watch the common folks be abused, enslaved and murdered. We have paid the price in BLOOD, Gerbil, to earn the right to become the world's poiliceman, and by golly, when it is in our power to roll back the clutches of tyrranny, and have the right leaders in place with the will and determination to stand up for what is right, we DO what is right.

Liberating oppressed people is the right thing to do.

Painting the entire motivations of a great nation because SOME people who have attaned power in it over the years have at times used that power to enrich their own financial situaitons is illogical.

We ain't saints, bud, we don't claim to be. But don't misunderstand, we won't be hamstrung by Neville Chamberlain types who would have been comfortable with France remaining under Nazi German control. Just like American boys fought and died in Europe TWICE last century to free common people from tyrants and bloodthirsty despots, and were prepared to do it a third time, we and our allies will face down this threat in Iraq and move on to take down Syria, Lebanon and North Korea, as well as any other nation which thinks it can train and dispatch terrorists against peaceful nations without consequence.

[Elfhelm]

As for the US attacking Iraq, of course facile dolts will join the ranks of the mind-numbed greenie peaceniks who want to claim that the prime motivation is oil. It ain't. It is about nuclear, biological and chemical weapons being developed by the Iraqis and used against the US OR its allies

No, it's more like that OTHER movie, the Phantom Menace. And when the UN inspectors find no WMDs, Bush will just say they are hiding them too well.

You can't win a war on two fronts. Leave off Iraq and let's go after Al-Quaeda only.

[Dunadan]

<YAWN>
Yes, yes, but has anyone actually found out what he said?

...?

thought not

[bropous]

Wow, Elfhelm, I went to that website too, checked it out, and the only hatred I could find was the hatred you yourself were venting towards this website and the folks who run it, and their apparent disagreement with you regarding environmental, and I imagine other, issues which might bother the "middle of the rooad and left-leaning Oregonians".

Can't you accept some folks just don't agree with the eco-religion, and not accuse them of "hatred" because they want to build a shopping center and maybe provide a few jobs for people? Again, it's the little guy who gets hurt because the "middle of the rooad and left-leaning Oregonians" wants to kill groeth and commerce, which are the NATURAL paths of the species homo sapiens sapiens.

It's not "hate" to say to you that holding some fly or fern or flying turtle as more important than humans is wrong. Some folks actually can see that mankind AND nature can co-exist, and we don't have to take as gospel the heterodoxy of the "middle of the rooad and left-leaning" Sierra Club types who want to kick all the humans off the land and return it to Sasquatch and the Great Spotted Owl.

You may have diagreements with the folks at the Oregonian, but in reading their stuff they make plenty of sense to me, and do it in much less of a hate-slinging fashion than some of their apparent detractors utilize.

I may think Mortenson is a moron for making comments like he did, and even more a moron for having the opinions he has, but at least I don't accuse him of hatred, I just say he's wrong, and that with additional facts which he is not currently possessing, he might actually change his attitudes towards the subjects at hand.

One can actually cut down a tree or build a house and not be an Orc.

[Elfhelm]

If my typos make me wrong, imagine how wrong the articles you are posting are! They have a lot more typos. But then, since these people are destroying the education system in Oregon perhaps it is OK for them to make typos, but not me.

[bropous]

Can't win a war on two fronts, Elfhelm?

Guess you never knew that the US actually fought on THREE fronts in World War Two and won: Pacific theater, Mediterranean theater, Northern European theater.

Elfhelm, Al-Qaeda is allied to Husayn, and attacking Iraq is part of attacking Al-Qaeda. Recall, the War on Terror is NOT only on Al-Qaeda, it is against ALL Terror organizations AND the nations which sponsor them and or give them aid and shelter. Iraq has done both. Removing Husayn from power removes yet another safe haven for Al-Qaeda, just as we did in Afghanistan and Yemen.

dunadan, as someone posted above, the Charlie Rose show is not releasing transcripts, only videos. I certainly trust that Larry Elder reports precisely what Viggo said. Larry Elder has a very respectable reputation as a straightforward guy who doesn't have to make stuff up as he goes. He's on-the-level.

I certainly do hope Viggo learns a bit more from the character of Aragorn, and maybe just a little something from Christopher Lee.

[Elfhelm]

The Oregonian is a respected newspaper. Oregon Magazine is a hate sheet. I live here. I know these people. They don't care about the little guy who needs more shopping malls. And I can tell you the fact: their leaders are going to jail for crimes involving the voting process. Trust them, as you would trust Saruman.

[bropous]

Elfhelm, I did not mean to take a dig at you for typos, Eru knows I make plenty of those myself.....I was just being lazy and cut-and-pasting.

But again, there you go......they don't agree with your vision of education as supported by the state, and you don't say they are wrong, or should re-examine the issue, you say that they are destroying education. No, they don't agree with your heterodoxy, so they are evil, beyond redemption, fiscal reprobates who only want to starve old people, kill trees and deny education to children. Yeesh. Sooo predictable.

Let me take just one wild stab in the dark as to why you think they are destroying education: They want to cut taxes, don't they?

[Elfhelm]

"I am (obviously) much in love with plants and above all trees, and have always been; and I find human maltreatment of them as hard to bear as some find ill-treatment of animals." -JRRT

[bropous]

Elfhelm, if any folks at Oregonian DID try to screw with election process, I say hang 'em. I don't go for election tampering, but hey, I'll take your characterization of the folks at Oregon Magazine with a grain of salt, as anyone, apparently, who disagrees with you in any variety is painted in the WORST possible light and you have no compunction against stereotyping people as demons simply because they don't agree with you.

You ought to learn some "tolerance"! :D

[Elfhelm]

I repeat this is NOT the OREGONIAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Oregonian is a normal newspaper. This is a one-sided agenda-based publication.

Isn't heterodoxy the opposite of orthodoxy? Then I guess, yeah, I don't like their orthodoxy.

[bropous]

Tolkien lived in houses made of wood, burned tobacco, consumed vegetables and animals, wore leather, cleared weeds from his gardens, burned tree parts in his fireplaces, etc. He wrote on paper made from cut-down and processed trees, drove a vehicle at times which polluted the environment imperceptably, used glue made from horse hooves, enjoyed a good steak and kidney pie, drank the juices of harvested and rotted grains, on and on and on.

USE of living things does not equal MALTREATMENT of living things.

[Elfhelm]

Your characterization of me is based on what, exactly?

[Elfhelm]

OK, since you won't answer that question...

fiscal reprobates who only want to starve old people, kill trees and deny education to children

They are! I can tell you because I live here. These people are so far to the right that the Republicans and even the Conservative Party don't want anything to do with them. So, as I have repeatedly said, consider the source.

I'm glad Vig speaks his mind. I'm sick of fearful tight-lipped people who don't like what's going on but are too scared to speak up.

[bropous]

Elfhelm, you are so far removed from reality that arguing further is meaningless. Can't disagree, gotta demonize the oppposition.

Mortenson is spouting garbage devoid of fact, he has ticked off a GOOD section of fans of the films, and with any luck, his short-sighted thumb-in-the-eye to those who put money in his pocket won't greatly affect the amount which ends up in the remainder of the cast's coffers.

LotR will continue to make scads of money, Mortenson's opinions being wrong-headed or no, and foolish people who ascribe the destruction of the planet to those who simply disagree with them will continue their character assassinations unhindered by fact. Some things never change.

Right, the folks at Oregon Magazine (gee, did I get it right this time?) want to starve old people, kill trees and deny education to children. Elfhelm, I don't say this very often, but you are a stupid, stupid person. Welcome to ignore.

[Gerbil]

Can you all stop bloody posting so fast?
I've now got a million pages to read up on and reply insultingly to do.

Makes me tired just thinking about it all... ;)

[bropous]

O Rodent Messiah:

I will gladly cease posting to allow a catch-up. Fair play to ya. ;)


...and if truth be known, I should not be allowed to discuss politics in public...if only Viggo had kept his trap shut....lol

But then again, heck, if Viggo has these opinions, the guy's got a right to put 'em out there, heck, he has a RESPONSIBILITY to speak out agaisnt something he thinks is wrong.

I think he just needs to rethink his positions.

<thorazine drip.....stat!>

[Elfhelm]

Lock and temporary ban request. Thanks.

[Gerbil]

Originally posted by crickhollow
Actually, that's a misconception. The US was involved in helping Afganistan "freedom fighters" stave off the Russians in the 80s, but the government that was supported by the US during that time was overthrown by the Taliban in 1997. Actually no it's not. The Taliban was one of the many 'freedom fighter' groups who combined, with US aid, to overthrow the occupying Russians. They merely happened to be the strongest afterwards, as well as made up of a majority of errr.... Pashwuns? The group that had apparently ruled Afghanistan for hundreds of years before the Russians moved in. That they may not have been called the Taliban at that point in time is beside the point. Do a search on google, it's easy enough to pull up the history, although of course not many mention the US' involvement - either because it was not common knowledge when the articles were written, or more likely mentioning such a thing would be considered 'unpatriotic'. Hindsight is wonderful.
Let's also remember that victors write the history books.

[Elfhelm]

Pashtuns or Pushtuns... they made most of their money smuggling goods into Pakistan.

HEY! my point is not whether I agree with them. My point is that this is not a normal newspaper article that was posted. It is written by someone who is notorious in my community with stirring up a lot of nonsense. Someone who is not respected in these parts. Someone who claims to be a conservative but most conservatives avoid. So I warned you all.

This thread may be totally skewed out of reality because nobody ever quoted Vig as saying anything! In fact, his comments may have been mild but this guy is notorious for distorting things in order to prove his point.

That's all. Jeeez

[bropous]

Gerb, the Taliban were an outgrowth of ONE faction of "mujaheddin" who fought the Soviet occupation and Soviet puppet government in Afghanistan. The Taliban were a group of NON-AFGHAN fundamentalists who came out as the leading power after the civil war fizzled out in 1997. The leadership was all non-Afghan, and its main function was training and supporting terrorists.

The Taliban never received aid from the United States, Gerb, EXCEPT some money sent by Clinton to help eradicate opium poppy production in Afghanistan, and the Taliban WERE seen as allies in the War on Drugs by the Clinton administration. They were not given military support, thank god, even though the Clinton foreign policy team was the biggest group of blithering idiots to disgrace this nation since Carter's disastrous team which lost Iran to the Ayatollahs.

One CAN find websites on the web which will give you ANY "fact" you are looking for, whether it be that the US paid for Husayn's underwear collection to Balinese covert support for penguins officially declared by Australia as stinky nuisances, but you must keep your wits about you. One can STILL find loons out there who will swear up and down that the original President George Bush flew in an SR-71 to make a secret deal to have the Iranian hostages released in time for Reagan to win his election.

The vast majority of information I have seen from reputable and reliable news sources have indicated that the United States was never a supporter of the Taliban, nor did the US put them into power.

The victors write history books, Gerb, but let us not forget that the losers these days get a crack at writing a book too. Let's not forget that the losers have an agenda in their tale as well.

[Gerbil]

OI! I said hang on a mo! Can't keep up!

[Gerbil]

I'll boil down Bropous' attempts to appear more knowledgable into the things I deem worth of replying to. I'm sure you'll pick out your own quotes that you smuggly sit there and think I've deliberately ignored because I have no answer.

What's the betting it still takes more than one mail to respond in full? ;) Oops, it'll take 3 at this rate. Doh!

Gerbil, your assertion that the United States installed the Taliban into power is not based in fact. Yes it is. Go searching on the web. Try to steer clear of US news sites.

...and that when it IS used to help oppressed people, e.g. Afghanistan and Iraq, it is belittled from outside and within by people who don't even have the basis of comprehension of the full picture to even formulate a coherent argument against it. You, of course, are not one of these people? Of course not, you are fed by the very unbiased US media :D Anyway, point is, who are we to say how they live their lives? No-one really gave a damn about Afghanistan (apart from the US wanting the Russians out) until all of a sudden we were 'under threat' from them and they harboured terrorists.

Right idea, wrong reasons, lousy timing. If it was that big a deal, 'we' (let's not forget the UK is your biggest supporter) should have done something about it earlier if it was a risk to world peace. Nope, nothing happened unti it directly affected us. Turning a blind eye was fine when it suited us.

YES, it is trying to use a Tolkien analogy and getting it WRONG, Gerbil. Well, personally I think he was silly for trying that, although as others have commented I've yet to see any actual quotes. Was he silly for his views? Who knows? Would help if we really knew what they were.

Israel creates atrocities, huh? Gee, I guess you know nothing about the HORDES of suicide bombers vomiting forth from the self-imposed impoverished "refugee camps" who INTENTIONALLY attack women and children, Personally I find the whole 'religious battle' side of things hard to fathom anyway. If you think, though, that the poor innocent Israelis have done nothing to move people to the point where they are prepared to kill themselves and innocent others to make a point, then I must congratulate the US media.

compared to the ISraeli military, which bends over BACKWARDS to avoid civilian casulaties even when their own civilian population is under terror attack? Hmmm, I really must congratulate the media then.

'He who is without sin' etc. etc.

My, you are ignorant of history. I'm from Europe remember, that's where history COMES from :p You'd do better searching the web (I saw it online! It must be true!) and verifying your fact before you reply though. At least do me the favour of proving me wrong with facts, not merely something you think is the case.

As for the US attacking Iraq, of course facile dolts will join the ranks of the mind-numbed greenie peaceniks who want to claim that the prime motivation is oil. It ain't. Ah, well, if Bropous says so, it must be so. Oops no, sorry, got a bit confused there. I thought cos you try to appear knowledgable and clever that what you say must be right. Nice to see your intelligent manner of debate includes insulting people. It means I can lower myself to your level. Although you'll probably beat me with experience then.

It is about nuclear, biological and chemical weapons being developed by the Iraqis and used against the US OR its allies, and yes, Gerbil, clutch the pearls, that includes the Israelis. Ah, so you mean basically anyone with nuclear powers that US thinks are anti-US? Hmmm, you must be crapping yourself about the Pakistan / India nuclear issue then. Should we attack them both perhaps too?

Sadam IS sitting astride quite vital oil shipping routes, though, I will give you that, and plenty of those routes are under threat from SCUDs, FROGs and Al-Husayni missiles, and Sadam has already proved in the past his willingness to use such weapons, even against innocent civilians. Must stop the nasty bad man then really. I've not, to my knowledge, said that the 'inevitable' war is a bad thing. I've pointed out that yet again, the US' motivations are nowhere near as altruistic as everyone (IE the americans) seems to think. So they save innocent people(and can justify the war accordingly) and get all the good oil into the bargain. Go for it I say.

[Gerbil]

Why is it that they can NEVER see the justification for the US to use military force to liberate people, and yet can turn their eyes to the MILLIONS of innocents who get butchered when the United States turns away and takes their advice to refrain from getting involved?Ahem. Justification is what it's all about from my point of view. As far as I'm aware the world generally turns a blind eye when people in charge kill their own people, it's only when our own interests are involved that people take a stand (see your own comments on Chamberlain later on). I don't understand why people bother to pretend otherwise really, and this is the point - I don't like being lied to - certainly not where important things like this are involved.

As for your comment about U.S. Jews, I find that particularly revolting, young man, and a shocking display of bigotry and stereotyping.From you, that's a compliment. Why should you be shocked? American Jews supporting Israeli Jews is surely a good sign of looking out for other people I'd have thought? That they happen to do it through invisible channels is entirely up to them.

You should be ashamed of yourself.Why? I'm not the blinkered one here coming out with standard boring responces when no better arguement springs to mind.

I DO slam him for the inability to recognize the difference between good and evil, and his obvious lack of compassion for the suffering the people of Afghanistan and Iraq have endured, and his limited conception of how the lives of those common folk will be improved by the United States taking military action, removing the threat to the general populace, and helping install REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLICS in those nations.Good luck to them I say. I hope it all works out nicely, really I do. But we are on very dodgy ground messing in religious cultures such as these with only the hated (by them) 'capitalism' mind-set in errr.. mind.

Contrary to the bleatings of some, the United States is not some hideous power-grubbing grasping monster seeking only its own enrichment. Actually, it pretty much comes across as if it is.
The issue here is that every country is the same, and, in a (short-sighted) way, fair play to 'em all. Every nation's priority is it's own people. However, when this intrudes on global affairs, then it needs to be examined much more closely. Hidden agendas abound, basically. No-one does anything for free in this world.

The United States DOES happen to be a representative republic, and though at times strays from its original and most important intent, has proved to this planet again and again that we, the cast-offs of ALL nations, have the dedication and care for our fellow man that we will NOT sit idly by and watch the common folks be abused, enslaved and murdered. We have paid the price in BLOOD, Gerbil, to earn the right to become the world's poiliceman, and by golly, when it is in our power to roll back the clutches of tyrranny, and have the right leaders in place with the will and determination to stand up for what is right, we DO what is right. Had to keep this in in it's entirety - it's such a beautiful piece of brainwashing. Try re-reading it and see how anyone could not think, in the slightest, that you are in fact reciting something by rote.

What exactly makes you think the US has the monopoly on suffering?
What exactly has happened to give you this 'right', other than an overinflated sense of patriotism?
How exactly did you manage to come up with such comments that are laughably easy to ridicule?
This coming from a country that got land from lying to and killing the natives.
Of course, you came from OUR country in the first place, but as I said earlier, 'he who is without sin, cast...' ;)
That, of course is the big joke in it all - none of us are innocent.

[Gerbil]

Liberating oppressed people is the right thing to do.Yup. Then what? Install a nice democracy? Urge them onto capitalism? Why? Because it suits US. Coming from a country with a ruling family (now devoid of powers, it must be said) I don't see why democracy is meant as a be-all and end-all to country set-ups. The 'civilised' countries sure seem to have as many problems as elsewhere.

Painting the entire motivations of a great nation because SOME people who have attaned power in it over the years have at times used that power to enrich their own financial situaitons is illogical. Now normally I'd agree with you. But when these individuals happen to be in charge of the country, what sort of sign does that send out?

We ain't saints, bud, we don't claim to be. But don't misunderstand, we won't be hamstrung by Neville Chamberlain types who would have been comfortable with France remaining under Nazi German control.Ooh! Attempt to show knowledge of history! Yup 'peace in our time' etc. etc. Then we got rid of him and brought in Churchill as I recall. Then, many years later and much of Europe ravaged by war, the US joined in and saved the day. Your help a bit earlier would have been nice, but once again, it didn't suit your interests at that point. No wonder Stalin was so put off by you lot - it took over 15 million Russians dying before we got back into Europe.

Just like American boys fought and died in Europe TWICE last century to free common people from tyrants and bloodthirsty despots,Ahem. Yeah, you got there eventually, I'll give you guys credit for that.

and were prepared to do it a third time, we and our allies will face down this threat in Iraq and move on to take down Syria, Lebanon and North Korea, as well as any other nation which thinks it can train and dispatch terrorists against peaceful nations without consequence. OK, now I'm scared because you've already got your battle plan worked out.

Bear in mind one thing - I AM jealous of your patriotism. I am as suspicious of my own country's motivations as yours. Life would be much easier and happier if I just believed the patriotic tainted biased media I was fed like you do.

Strange though - a democracy should mean each of us has the chance to express our individual ideas. We seem to be as brain-washed as everwhere else.

There was an interesting comment earlier on though - I think it was Entlover:

If the incipient war is over oil, I think most Americans are unaware of it. VERY important point there, made, I believe, without realising it. Which kind of makes the irony dig that little bit deeper...

[Gerbil]

Right that's it. Far too long a post, and I'm not even halfway through the thread yet.
Time for a break, you'll all be pleased to hear.

Definately think this thread should be moved somewhere a bit more appropriate though.

[Elfhelm]

It has nothing to do with Tolkien. Even Viggo isn't quoted.

[bropous]

Gerb, I don't get my facts simply from US news sources. I think maybe you should try another news source than The Daily Mirror.

Gerb, I admit my opinions about my nation and its motives in the current geopolitical climate are strongly held, but I DO care about oppressed people and have the historical overview to determine who the REAL threat is to world peace and the common man, and it ain't the United States. It is apathy in the face of terror.

I do get your point that people who are of Hebraic descent in the US MAY have an attachment to Israel, but remember also that ANY group has variation of thought, and not ALL Jews in the US are supportive of current Israeli policy, much less the right of Israel to exist period; in fact, MANY US Jews can be found who will support the Palestinians over the Israelis.

And, Gerb, you just don't get it: Capitalism improves the lives of people in EVERY nation it is allowed to flourish. Period. And some people DO give a dang about a bit more than just selfish national interest. Our current President is one of those people. Your current Prime Minister is another. Both realize that they COULD sit back, do nothing, and allow the terrorists to grow in power and scope until Birmingham or Chelsea or St Louis or Cleveland gets nuked. Both realize there IS a resonsibility of free and powerful nations to ensure that hundreds of thousands of lives are not swept away by the whims of evil despots.

We DO have FAR more noble motives in this than MANY other nations who have held to the "my interests first" policies, i.e., France. This nation, and our allies, is about to do something which will save hundreds of thousands of lives.

Sauron was faced and overthrown, not because Galadriel's gardens would be overrun, but because ALL gardens would have been overrun and despoiled had he been allowed to wax unchecked. You can also bet that NO nation will be safe from terrorism unless the US roots out the nations which sponsor the main terrorist organizations.

There IS more at stake here than just getting back at a bunch of people who killed over 3,000 of us (I know you probably don't care about that, you probalby think we deserved it), and that is we are PREVENTING the loss of 300,000 of other folks.

As for why this topic should be in this forum, it involves one of the main actors of the films (and could possibly lead to a stupid, ill-advised boycott of the films by some moronic reactionary groups), so it makes as much sense to be here in the Movies forum as some girly fawning thread over Orlando Bloom, n'est-ce pas?

As for me, I'm gonna watch the replay of Arsenal v. West Ham. Should be a slaughter. :D

[Elfhelm]

He's obviously ignoring me, but the rest of you should know:

This was an editorial written by a member of a tiny extremist group in my community and should be verified with legitimate sources before you decide to lynch Vig.

[cassiopeia]

IF what the Oregon Magazine says is true, then I am very dissapointed in Viggo. But he is only an actor and I really hate when people ask actors or rock stars what they think on these type of issues. As if thier opinion is more important, just because they are famous. I don't agree with his views at all, but I don't profess to liking Viggo because of his personality. I'm not going to stop watching his films or change my status or anything like that, because he has a right to voice what he feels, even if it is truly wrong.

[azalea]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I don't profess to liking Viggo because of his personality.

...heh heh heh...

[Nurvingiel]

Maybe a more moderate approach is necessary anyway, and not just because we don't fully understand the situations.

Viggo might have a point, but it's not as black and white as he seems to think. Though I deeply disagree with the US's current position on attacking Iraq, and the previous attack on Afghanistan, I still believe it's unfair to say that they are the terrorists.

The US was the victim in the terrorist attacks last September, but I believe that they reacted wrongly.

I don't have a solution, but I know that fighting will not bring peace. People say this all the time, and it has been said before in the thread, but that's because it's true.

If any country is attacked, people die. This leaves hurt and angry people, and it breeds hatred and more war.

Many Afghani's benefited from the Taliban being removed, but many Afghani's also died. You can say it was 'worth it' in the end, because the Taliban we're also responsible for killing and oppression.
I sincerely hope the provisional government is a success, and leads to democracy.

Anyway, my point is there has to be a different way to achieve peace than killing the people who disrupt peace. This only leads to more fighting, as we've proven time and time again.

The United States seems to have a very war-like attitude in general. They aren't terrorists by any means, but they are not bringing peace into the world.

I'm not proud of our own government either, because they support the attacks on Iraq. Last time we helped out, 'friendly fire' killed four of our soldiers.

[Khamûl]

This thread has gotten way out of hand, with the flaming and political discussions. There are plenty of (generally) civil political threads in GM. Once someone finds out what Viggo actually said, please let me know and I'll consider re-opening this thread.