The Silmarillion:Valaquenta

[Rían]

The next chapter in our discussion of the Silmarillion is: Valaquenta : Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar

I only have 2 HoME books, so I could use some help with the references, please :)

The references I have are: [list=1]
Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), Part Three - The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Section I, "The First Phase", No. 1, "Of the Valar";
Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), Part Three - The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Section I, "The Second Phase", "The Valaquenta";
The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, various places (I just had to get "Letters" in here! It's one of my favorite books, and he certainly discusses the Valar in "Letters")
[/list=1]

I asked Ñólendil for some help with translating "Valaquenta", since I don't know Quenya (and didn't realize that JRRT provided the translation right in the subtitle!), and he gave me the following: from Ñólendil
"Valaquenta" is translated in the Silmarillion as "Account of the Valar". "Quenta" = "story". Cf. Quenta Silmarillion - "The Story of the Silmarilli". "Valar" does mean "Powers", but in the sense of "Authorities". So Valaquenta = "Account of the Valar, Story of the Valar, Account of the Authorities, etc.

The first part of the Valaquenta summarizes the events in Ainulindalë; the second part is called "Of the Valar"; the third part is called "Of the Maiar", and the final part is called "Of the Enemies".

To start the discussion off, I'll pose the following questions:

(1) In "Of the Valar", the following spirits are referred to as "The Great":
The Lords of the Valar: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas;
The Valier, the Queens of the Valar: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa.
"Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth."

(a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits?

(b) Which of the Valar are your favorites, and why?

(c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings.

[Finrod Felagund]

Ahhh, it's already here!

[Rían]

To help with the questions in the first post, I put together a list of spouses and siblings (I suppose that's the word that would apply?) among the Valar. Please correct me if I am in error.

Valar:
Manwë : spouse of Varda, brother of Melkor
Ulmo : no spouse, no siblings
Aulë : spouse of Yavanna, no siblings
Oromë : spouse of Vána, brother of Nessa
Mandos (Námo): spouse of Vairë, brother of Lórien and Nienna
Lórien (Irmo) : spouse of Estë, brother of Mandos and Nienna
Tulkas : spouse of Nessa, no siblings

Valier:
Varda : spouse of Manwë, no siblings
Yavanna : spouse of Aulë, older sister of Vána
Nienna : no spouse, sister of Mandos and Lórien
Estë : spouse of Lórien, no siblings
Vairë : spouse of Mandos, no siblings
Vána : spouse of Oromë, younger sister of Yavanna
Nessa : spouse of Tulkas, sister of Oromë

No longer counted among the Valar:
Melkor (Morgoth) : brother of Manwë, attempted to take Arië (a Maia in the service of Varda and in charge of the Sun) as his spouse against her will, and got burned (literally and figuratively!) After his attempt, "Melkor was burned and his brightness darkened, and he gave no more light, but light pained him exceedingly and he hated it."

[Keith K]

In creating his mythology it seems that Tolkien borrowed heavily from other, existing mythologies. The extended family of Valar and Maiar is similar to the gods and goddesses of ancient Greece and Rome. The fall of Melkor is similar to the fall of Satan in Christian mythology. As the Sil unfolds into later chapters elements from Norse mythology can be seen.
On the whole, the chapter serves as a means to present a list of the movers and shakers in Valinor. There's not much action or even scene setting going on in it. Just a cast of characters without any bells or whistles.

[Rían]

Yes, I know it's a bit slow, but let's see if we can dig up anything. I don't think it will last for 3 weeks, though - we should probably move on sooner.

OK, let me work on those wonderful, intelligent, thought-provoking questions ;)

(a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits?
I don't know Quenya, so I can't comment on names. Does anyone else have anything to share? I think the specialities are interesting, and I like how they seem to be interested in both the great and the small in their areas. For example, Manwë's : delight is in the winds and the clouds, and in all the regions of the air, from the heights to the depths, from the utmost borders of the Veil of Arda to the breezes that blow in the grass. I get the feeling that Melkor would only pay attention to the "bigger" aspects of his area. That's such nice imagery, from the breezes in the grass to the outer atmosphere.

(b) Which of the Valar are your favorites, and why?
I know this was on another thread, but I thought it might be nice to repeat here. I love the stars, so I like Varda, but I'll have to get back about the others, because it's late and I need to get off!

(c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings.
I've always wondered about the spouse idea - didn't he change his mind about spouses later on, or was it that at first, they had offspring, then he changed his mind about that?

[Keith K]

If I had to pick a favorite Vala it would be Ulmo. He is the most active in the affairs of ME at least, with his waters flowing over and under the earth. At least he does something. The rest of em seem to be so passive....not much of a story there.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
[B]Yes, I know it's a bit slow, but let's see if we can dig up anything. I don't think it will last for 3 weeks, though - we should probably move on sooner.

OK, let me work on those wonderful, intelligent, thought-provoking questions ;)

(a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits?
I don't know Quenya, so I can't comment on names. Does anyone else have anything to share? I think the specialities are interesting, and I like how they seem to be interested in both the great and the small in their areas. For example, Manwë's : I get the feeling that Melkor would only pay attention to the "bigger" aspects of his area. That's such nice imagery, from the breezes in the grass to the outer atmosphere. I can't comment on their names either, but they were each given a charge in nature in shaping the world. What was Morgoth's area, or did Iluvatar omitt him after he caused discord in the Music? I need to reread this section again.

(b) Which of the Valar are your favorites, and why?
I know this was on another thread, but I thought it might be nice to repeat here. I love the stars, so I like Varda, but I'll have to get back about the others, because it's late and I need to get off! I too have always liked Varda and Manwe. Next would be Ulmo. Tulkus was pretty awesome. I also liked Yavanna

(c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings.
I've always wondered about the spouse idea - didn't he change his mind about spouses later on, or was it that at first, they had offspring, then he changed his mind about that? I think giving the Valar gender makes it easier for the reader to relate to them. Also it seemed that certian of the tasks assigned to the Valar were feminine and masculine for that mythology. Tulkus being so warrior like, and Yavanna being gentle and nurturing all the growing things. Manwe with the wind which can be powerful. Varda with the stars, which is more gentle and of beauty, and so on. Just my two cents.:)

[Lief Erikson]

How odd . . . My favorites are Manwë and Varda as well, with Ulmo as a close second.

Manwë because he is so close to the heart of Ilúvatar, and I like the difference between him and Melkor. Even if Melkor is more powerful, that doesn't make him greater than Manwë, for it is righteousness that matters, not strength.

Varda because . . . well just look at this quote:


Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy. Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made.


That's why I like Varda. Because she resisted Melkor's temptations, and is extremely beautiful and pure of heart. Her connection to the stars also is very neat, as RÃ*an said.

Ulmo is one of my favorites for a few reasons. I like how he only occasionally comes to the councils of the Valar, how he is alone and also how he searches out the deeps: places that only he has seen. Also I like how he is so deeply in tune with the music, and is good friends with Manwë.

[Finrod Felagund]

I can't remember but I think I read somewhere, was Morgoth' area fire? That would definitly account for the dragons. Or would Aule be under that category?

[Elvet]

The Valar all have affiliations with the physical powers of the earth. It is reminiscent of what one thinks of as the more basic belief systems - gods of water, wind, sun, stars, etc. Tolkien manages to animate these gods with feelings of happiness, anger, passion, greed, and sorrow. Yet they all work in unison to sustain the world. All except for Melkor. He is the dissident, and as such, is capable of much destruction. It seems odd that just 1 valar could reek such havoc. I like to look at it as Melkor going against the forces of nature, thinking and acting as if the world was there for his benefit, to corrupt and pillage for his use only. The other valar are repairing the damage, healing the wounds.
This may be simplifying it a lot, but to me this chapter speaks of the connection we have with the earth that sustains us. I like to think that no matter how destructive and obtrusive we are, given enough time, the forces of nature can heal the damage.

[Meriadoc]

As I put together the sibling/spouse list, I found it interesting that Ulmo was the only one without either a sibling or a spouse, and he's the one that's usually ends up acting alone, and "dwells nowhere long".

The other unusual one was Nienna, the only one of the Valier that had no spouse, but then again, she had TWO brothers!

I think that relationships are very powerful and meaningful, and perhaps that's why Tolkien gave the Valar siblings and spouses - for comfort, encouragement, assistance, etc. And I like how the pairings are - air and stars; earth and fruit of the earth; keeper of the Houses of the Dead and recorder of the deeds of the dead; master of visions and dreams with the healer and giver of rest; the valiant fighter with the exhuberent dancer. The only one that doesn't match up so well in my mind is Orome and Vana - the serious hunter with the flower-opener. Maybe it corresponds with the passage in Ecclesiates about "a time for war and a time for peace".

Y'know, SGH, I think Melkor was never "assigned" an area, like you said, I suppose because he rebelled even before the world was actually created. I'll try to find something on that (or anyone else, too). But he is associated with fire somehow, I'll try to find that too.

[Rían]

That last post was actually mine - I had forgotten my son logged me off to check his PMs! :D

[Keith K]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
That last post was actually mine - I had forgotten my son logged me off to check his PMs! :D

Too funny Rian! I was temporarily confused by that post. It sounded like you yet it wasn't you, yet it originated in your house!

Thankyou for pointing out that Ulmo was alone mostly. It's another reason why I think he is interesting. I'm sure he found it rather boring hanging out in Valmar with the others doing pretty much.....nothing!

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
I can't remember but I think I read somewhere, was Morgoth' area fire? That would definitly account for the dragons.

Am I desperately misinformed?

[Rían]

No, I think you're right, but I haven't had time to look it up yet - anyone else know? or I'll look later tonight ... I'm speed-posting right now, because it's finish-homework-time and prepare-dinner-time...

[Keith K]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...it's finish-homework-time and prepare-dinner-time...

I resemble that remark!!

[Rían]

Are you the dinner-preparer or the homework-doer, or both, or neither? :D

OK, here's the only thing I found - from Morgoth's Ring (of course ;) ), the Later Quenta Silmarillion I - In ice and fire was his delight. But darkness he used most in all his evil works, and turned it to fear and a name of dread among Elves and Men.

Also in MR and the Sil, it says how Melkor desired light and tried to find the Flame Imperishable for his own. From Myths Transformed, in MR: But Melkor, as hath been told, lusted after all light, desiring it jealously for his own.

[Rían]

Some more questions - this time on parts 2 and 3, "Of the Maiar" and "Of the Enemies":

Of the Maiar:

2. Opinions on temporary rebellion of Ossë? Contrast to the rebellions of Aulë and Melkor.

3. Opinions/thoughts on Olórin. It is undisputed that he is Gandalf? Compare his actions in this section to his actions in ME in LoTR.


Of the Enemies:

4. Any further comments on Melkor/Sauron? What do you think of the comment in Morgoth's Ring comparing Morgoth's "brand of evil" to Sauron's? From MR, "Myths Transformed: Melkor 'incarnated' him self (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter, of Arda. He attemped to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient' ..... But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world ..... The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring......"

5. Do the Valaraukar (Balrogs) have wings? *runs and hides*

[Sister Golden Hair]

RIAN!!!! Where's my big stick? WHAP!:mad: :p :D

[Lief Erikson]

(Gets in the way)

Go back to the shadow with your stick, Sister Golden Hair! YOU SHALL NOT PASSS!!!!!!! ;) :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

I also wonder about other evil creatures such as Ungoliant. It seems to me that she was not in league with Morgoth, but would aid him in evil deeds for a price. Do you think she could have ever been bribed by the good guys to do anything against Morgoth or other enemies? She just seemed to be out for herself. Were there any other independent evil free agents?

[Elvellon]

What little we see of Ungoliant portrays it as a cunning beast. It probably was also an amoral creature, it’s sole concern being the satiation of its hunger. I doubt it would be controllable, in the end it always wanted more, and more.

It may be relevant that the originally Ungoliant was supposed to be a servant of Morgoth, grown too strong for him to control.

[Rían]

*hee hee*

Thanks, Lief! Sorry, SGH! :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
*hee hee*

Thanks, Lief! Sorry, SGH! :D That's ok, because Lief is right here on my little list.:D

[Rían]

OMGoodness, this is TOO fun!

Good question, SGH, about other "independant" evil forces. Old Man Willow pops into my head, and the tentacle creature in the water outside the gate of Moria ... also, on the good side, Bombadil.

I like your summary of Ungoliant, Elvellon - her "sole concern being the satiation of its hunger". What a fitting end she had - eating herself! I can't find it in the Sil offhand - is it in there, or is it in HoME somewhere?

[Rían]

2. Opinions on temporary rebellion of Ossë? Contrast to the rebellions of Aulë and Melkor.

I really like the little paragraph on Ossë's rebellion and repentance. Ossë apparently went over to Melkor's allegiance and started the "great tumults in the sea that wrought ruin to the lands." But then his spouse, Uienen, at the request of Aulë (hmm, just noticed that it was Aulë that asked! Interesting ... I wonder if the dwarf-making episode had taken place yet - I don't think it's clear either way) :"restrained Ossë and brought him before Ulmo; and he was pardoned and returned to his allegiance, to which he has remained faithful."
Compared to Melkor, who doesn't repent of his rebellion.
I really like the story of Aulë creating the dwarves, and how he offered even to destroy "the work of my presumption", and then Iluvatar gave it to him, because Aulë was willing to let go of it. But that comes in another chapter...

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

I can't find it in the Sil offhand - is it in there, or is it in HoME somewhere?

It can be found in chapter nine, “of the flight of the Noldor,� page 81 (of the Silmrillion illustrated by Ted Nasmith. Wonderful paintings!) :)

[Rían]

Thanks! :D

I think you and SGH have the same Sil - I'm SO jealous! Mine is a cheap paperback that is in several pieces...

[Elvellon]

Ahah! My fist Silmarillion is also in such a state :D(I had to look nearly all bookstores in town to find it, I had became enthralled by Tolkien’s universe after reading LotR, and specially by the elves, so I had to know more about them. I still have that old book).

About your fourth question:



Of the Enemies:

4. Any further comments on Melkor/Sauron? What do you think of the comment in Morgoth's Ring comparing Morgoth's "brand of evil" to Sauron's? From MR, "Myths Transformed:


They were inherently different. One could say that Morgoth’s doom was Chaos as Sauron’s was Order.

Originally Morgoth wanted to Create, later, as he became more and more corrupt, he became solely motivated by destruction, virtually embodying Entropy.

Sauron’s fall, on the other hand, was motivated by a wish of control. He didn’t want to destroy; he was just obsessed with control and Order. How he ever perceived Morgoth as an opportunity for greater Order is a good question.

Answering SGH question about other independent Evils I would say that, to me, the later Sauron is the greatest independent of all.

[Rían]

Hey, where's all the other Sil posters? :confused:

Should we just move on to the next chapter? I know this chapter's not too lively...

[Keith K]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...I know this chapter's not too lively...

I couldn't say it any better myself!

[Sister Golden Hair]

At the end of the three weeks it will be time for the next chapter. I am very disappointed at the lack of interest in the project, and the lack of volunteers taking chapter assignment.:(

[Lefty Scaevola]

Well, if Tolkien had kept a secret manuscript about the sex life of the Valar, we would have had some livly discussion.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Was anything wriiten, besides on Morgoth, on the tendency of Auniur who wore a particular body for a long while to get deeply attached to it? The balrog which fled to Moria reatained his, when all logic of fleeing and hiding would have said change to something less conspicuous.

[azalea]

I think that's a facinating concept, an immortal being "attached" to it's body in more ways than one. It's like when Gandalf became the White, how he seemed to forget who he had been before. I like to try to visualize the Valar, and I have trouble with Ulmo, for some reason. The others I have a general mental picture of (I don't know if the pictures are "right"), and I try to imagine what it would be like for them to experience "life," as in inhabiting a bodily form, and yet be basically "gods." That's why it really does remind me of the Greek pantheon. Maybe I can't picture Ulmo as well because it states that he seldom inhabits a body! Duh! I just thought of that.:rolleyes:

[Artanis]

I find it hard to believe that the Ainur would attach so strongly to their physical shapes. Their bodies was not a part of them, but more like raiment, and they chose their shape to be in likeness to the Children of Iluvatar, only far more beautiful and great in splendour.

[Artanis]

I just re-read this chapter, and noticed a few lines telling about how Manwë's and Varda's abilities were enhanced when they were together:
When Manwë there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist, and through darkness, and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth.Perhaps not very significant, but it tells about a strong relationship, and I found it quite uplifting.

Another little detail I noticed: It says of Melian that "Nightingales sang about her wherever she went". Interesting then, that Beren should call her daughter by the name Tinuviel, which means Nightingale. Coincidence, or not?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Not a coincidence. Being around her mother, and thus the nightengales, she would have had much exposure and oportunity to aquire musical motif and technique for the nightengales, held be be among the very beng songbirds.

[Rían]

I've never heard a nightingale sing before - has anyone else? I've always heard that they are supposed to be very beautiful, though. Wasn't there a story about a Chinese emperor that heard a nightingale and had one sing for him? I can't recall the details, I think he was sick or something.

I like the relationship aspect of your quote too, Artanis - that's why I put together that sibling/spouse list, which I found interesting. Did you?

I don't remember any of the other Valar becoming attached to their bodies like Morgoth did. I suppose Melian did, however, so she could wed Thingol. But more on that in chpt. 4.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
that's why I put together that sibling/spouse list, which I found interesting. Did you? Yes, and I agree with everything you said when you were Meriadoc. :D

[Earniel]

*comes running and falls on the ground of the thread* Finally I made it! Weekend! Moot-time! *looks at clock: 1.17 passed midnight* Ergl... I'll post tomorrow...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Ergl...

Ergl? *looks up "Ergl" in Quenya dictionary* oh, ok .. from Quenya dictionary
"Ergl" (ERG-l) - from "er", 'one, alone', as in "Erebor", the lonely mountain; and "gil", 'star', as in Gil-galad: a primitive Elvish exclamation, usually spoken by a famous Elvish personage, when feeling like he is going to have to go somewhere alone.

Oh, that's right, that's like in Feanor's impassioned speech to the Noldor:from the Sil, "Of the Flight of the Noldor" (um, well, mostly a direct quote...) :
"Shall we mourn here deedless for ever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the thankless sea? Ergl! Or shall we return to our home! ... Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!"

[MasterMothra]

im not sure if morgoth was paired with any element of earth such as wind, water etc. i would think morgoth had a little of all these elements. in the sil it says, " in the powers and knowledge of all the other valar he had part." that is probably why he was the mightiest of the ainur.

there arent too many of the valar that i liked. most of them seemed like mindless robotic servants of illuvatar. i liked ulmo and aule, they seemed to seperate themselves from the pack. tulkas was rather boring, all brawn and no brains, imagine that.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
im not sure if morgoth was paired with any element of earth such as wind, water etc.


I seem to remember in BOLT 1 (or was that 2?) that he was linked with ice and fire, but I'm not too sure on that one. (I see Rian's already commented on this. :D)

One thing I've found interesting is Morgoth's (almost) obsession with not being able to fly in BOLT. Does this surface at any time in the Sil? (I've only read it once, and my memory isn't that great, so...) Anyway, the reason I brought it up, is that it's sorta interesting how some of the other valar (working from memory here) had dominance over the 'air' component, and Morgoth couldn't - and yet he had balrog (which may have had wings :D) and winged serpents under his dominion.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
there arent too many of the valar that i liked. most of them seemed like mindless robotic servants of illuvatar. i liked ulmo and aule, they seemed to seperate themselves from the pack. tulkas was rather boring, all brawn and no brains, imagine that. RÃ*an mentioned the significance of Ulmo having no siblings and no spouse, and he didn't seek the other Ainur's company in the Undying Lands, but stayed close to Middle-Earth. I wonder if Ulmo wandered alone because he was often dissenting with the other Ainur, or if it was the other way around, he had (and followed) his own ideas because he was alone? If you follow me.

[Rían]

(ps - my last post was a joke - no one take it seriously, please! "Ergl" just sounded so funny to me that I tried to play around with it.)

That's interesting about Morgoth wanting to fly, BoP. I just have BoLT II, but I don't recall it (but it's been quite a while since I read it - I prefer UT and MR! :D). Could you try a quick check in the index to see if you could find a section to share? That would make a lot of sense that he would be jealous of an area that is Manwë's, and that he is in command of corrupted "bird"-like creatures, as opposed to Manwë's lordly and powerful eagles. I need to re-look at BoLT - I just can't seem to get over that "Tinwelent" name, though!

Yes, Ulmo's being alone is interesting. Perhaps even a third view, or a combination of your views, Artanis - Ilúvatar chose Ulmo to have the dissenting ideas because He knew that it wouldn't bother Ulmo to be alone with different ideas because of his personality. I like how Ulmo supports the other Valar, when the discussion is over and it's time for a decision, even when he does dissent - where is that part where JRRT says about Ulmo something like 'although he disagreed, he went along with their decision, because it is not the part of those who uphold authority to rebel against it if it doesn't suit them'. I could be way off, but I seem to remember something like that.

[Earniel]

(a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits?
I think there is. Seven is often seen as a sacred number. I believe that in christianity it's the number of perfection. The pairing of them definately seems to have some significance. The abilities of each couple seen to unify the seperate fields of both partners. Manwë the sky and wind and Varda the stars above. Yavanna all the grows on the earth and Aulë the earth below. ect.... RÃ*an already made a summary of it.

Ulmo stands alone but has a couple of Maiar at his side: Ossë and Uinen. Whereas Ossë is the unruly and untrustworthy side of the sea and Uinen is the softer side as mariners in need call upon her. She's also capable of subduing Ossë temper. Together they form a sort of trinity. It reminds me sometimes of Triton, a seagod. But that's probably my overactive imagination.:)

I think it's very interesting that Tolkien assigned the extreme fields such as extreme cold (ice) and extreme heat (fire) to Melkor. Mostly evil characters have only a link with fire where I think Melkor has more depth. Extremes often lead to intolerance and we all know where that leads so I think it's very fitting to choose extremes as a field for Morgoth.

(c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings.
Mainly I think it's because it is a tradition in mythology around the world to have female and male gods. And since he was trying to write a mythology for Brittain it would only seem natural that he made them that way. Looking for a reason within Middle earth, I'd say the valar took those forms to make the elves feel more comfortable around them.

I think there are reasons for the choice of siblings among the Valar. IMO it ties the valar as a group closer together, also the different aspects of the siblings often corresponds. Oromë and Ness are siblings. Nessa's delight is in deer and Oromë is the lords of the woods where I assume you normally find deer. Vána is Yavanna's younger sister. Incidently Vána's field is youth. Vána's flowers also correspond nicely with Yavanna's field. An interesting fact is that Tolkien made Lórien and Mandos brothers. If that isn't a direct reference to the Greek Hypnos (god of sleep) and Thanatos (god of death) I'm a purple chicken. Nienna is their sister and the grief and sorrow that she impersonates relates closely to death and sleep IMO.

Another interesting fact is that he wanted the gods to have children too, although he later changed that.

2. Opinions on temporary rebellion of Ossë? Contrast to the rebellions of Aulë and Melkor. I think Ossë's rebellion highlights his link to the sea which is often seen as an treacherous, everchanging thing.

3. Opinions/thoughts on Olórin. It is undisputed that he is Gandalf? Compare his actions in this section to his actions in ME in LoTR. I think it's pretty undisputed that that Gandalf is Olórin. Somewhere in my misty memory there is a remnant of a little poem, said by Gandalf that had the sentense (or something like it) it it: "Olórin I was in the West that is forgotten."

At the end of the three weeks it will be time for the next chapter. I am very disappointed at the lack of interest in the project, and the lack of volunteers taking chapter assignment. Alas, if I could be certain that I would have sufficient time I would try one. I'll see what I can do, though.

Ergl? *looks up "Ergl" in Quenya dictionary* oh, ok ..
(ps - my last post was a joke - no one take it seriously, please! "Ergl" just sounded so funny to me that I tried to play around with it.) I must admit I was a bit surprised. I even went to check that quote if he really had said 'Ergl'! :p

.....yet he had balrog (which may have had wings) .... Okay so they might have had wings but can they FLY? :D

A long and probably boring post, I know. But I couldn't let one of my favorite chapters go by without at least one post, now could I? You can all wake up now.

[Rían]

Thanks, Eärniel, for the long (and NOT boring by any means) post!

I wasn't aware of Hypnos (god of sleep) and Thanatos (god of death) - yes, it sure sounds like Lórien and Mandos. And I like how Nienna is grouped with them.

I would say that Olórin is definitely Gandalf, too. There's several little tidbits in MR about Olórin, and it's nice to know he is Gandalf. It really makes Galdalf's personality in ME make more sense. I like how he is an "inspire-er" of others.

Did you really check to see if Feanor said "Ergl"? :D The "er" and "gil" definitions are from the Sil appendicies (I put those in to make the word sound more authentic!), then I put them together to match what you had typed :D

And that's what I meant by "number" - I was wondering if anyone else would catch it, and you did! :)

[Rían]

Hey BoP - you're absolutely right! I found a ref. in BoLT II, in "The Fall of Gondolin" : Then arose Thorndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwë in the air);

I'm glad you brought that up, I had completely forgotten that! Very interesting.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Okay so they might have had wings but can they FLY? :D


Which leads me to my next point: not all Morgoths 'winged' creations were successful. :p

BOLT 1, "The Coming of the Valar"

Those twain gathered now wings of power to themselves and fared swiftly through the three airs. Vaitya is that which is wrapped dark and sluggish about the world and without it, but Ilwe is blue and clear and flows among the stars, and last came they to Vilna that is grey and therein the birds fly safely.

BOLT 1, "The Tale of the Sun and the Moon"

"There walks Manwe Sulimo often far out beyond the stars and watches it with love, and he is very near the heart of Illuvatar...

But this have ever been and is yet the greatest bitterness to Melko, for in no wise of himself could he now forsake the bosom of the Earth, and belike ye shall yet hear how mightily his envy was increased when the great vessels of radiance set sail..."

BOLT 1, "The Hiding of Valinor"

Thereat did Tulkas laugh, saying naught might come now to Valinor save only by the topmost airs, "and Melko hath no power there..."

[BeardofPants]

Rian, you found the key quote in BOLT 2, before I could have a look, but I'll give it a quick skim any way.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
At the end of the three weeks it will be time for the next chapter. I am very disappointed at the lack of interest in the project, and the lack of volunteers taking chapter assignment.

You know what, Sister Golden Hair, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Just about everyone who does post in this forum has posted here, I think, and there are several people actively involved. The Silmarillion forum wasn't as frequented as some of the other forums to begin with, so we can't expect an enormous crowd.


I think those were some very perceptive comments, Earniel, and I enjoyed reading them :). About the extremes and intolerance of Morgoth, the Maiar of the sea, those were some interesting meanings I hadn't looked at before. Thanks :).


As for the Balrog . . . I personally don't know whether they could fly or not, but it seems likely. They weren't creations of Morgoth, if I remember correctly, but were corrupted Maiar that joined his side. They were spirit type beings, although they became at least partially attached to Arda, like Melkor and the others that came into Arda. I doubt that they would have wings if they were useless, although that particular Balrog had been buried underneath the mountains for a long time, so that might be some explanation for its inability to go soaring like an eagle when thrown into the chasm. Plus, immediately after its fall began, it became locked in combat with Gandalf. They didn't fall separately like in the movie.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You know what, Sister Golden Hair, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Just about everyone who does post in this forum has posted here, I think, and there are several people actively involved. The Silmarillion forum wasn't as frequented as some of the other forums to begin with, so we can't expect an enormous crowd.One of the reasons that I agreed to allow the project was a hope that it would attract a bit more traffic into this forum.

Hey Lief, why don't you take a couple chapters?
:)

[Earniel]

Wow, people actually liked my post. There are still miracles in the world. :)

RÃ*an:
Did you really check to see if Feanor said "Ergl"? The "er" and "gil" definitions are from the Sil appendicies (I put those in to make the word sound more authentic!), then I put them together to match what you had typed Yes, I did. :D It sounded so strange that I wanted to be certain.

BoP:
Which leads me to my next point: not all Morgoths 'winged' creations were successful. Yet the winged dragons were some sort of success. If one forgets the fact that they were still beaten.
Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Sounds like a very big dragon, it would have taken some effort to get this beastie in the air. Maybe in the end Morgoth did discover the secret of flying so he could make winged dragons. But since he was cast beyond the Walls of the World he could not try so anew and we'll never know for certain.


SGH, if it would cheer you I'll volunteer for a chapter. I can't give more background reading than BOLT 1 and 2 but I can give it a shot. It'll be a challenge. If only someone will be kind enough to remind me when I have to post it. :rolleyes:

[Sister Golden Hair]

SGH, if it would cheer you I'll volunteer for a chapter. I can't give more background reading than BOLT 1 and 2 but I can give it a shot. It'll be a challenge. If only someone will be kind enough to remind me when I have to post it. That would be great Earniel. That will be chapter two for you then. I have posted a new sticky with all the due dates for posting the chapters. You don't have to worry about not having a bunch of research material. Just do the best you can with what you have. the most important book to have of course is the Silmarillion

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Hey Lief, why don't you take a couple chapters?

Well, just now I'm rereading The Two Towers in preparation for the coming out of the movie; we'll be seeing it in precisely nine days by my brothers' count. All of us are strongly hyped up to see it; after that, I'll think about taking a chapter for the Sil :).

[TigerWong]

Well, don't get too discouraged. I think this Silmarillion project is a great idea! It seems like a lot of people are participating, and I'm sure others are happy just reading the threads, especially new readers of the book.

Looking at your schedule, you're booked until next March, so I wouldn't be worried about the "lack of volunteers". I was kinda interested in doing the AKALLABETH or the RINGS OF POWER, but seeing as how they don't roll around until May 2004 (!), I didn't want to commit to something I might not be able to follow up on or forget about. Who knows what any of us will be doing THAT far in the future. :) 2 weeks might be more than enough time to discuss some of the shorter chapters.

[Dunadan]

Sorry I'm late to the party. Hope there's still some miruvor left in that punchbowl...

There are a lot of parallels with existing creation myths and mythologies, of course. We shouldn't be surprised, since JRRT himself was deeply religious. However, the element I love about the Sil is that Arda is created by the Music of the Ainur, like an orchestra. Thus, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This is not a "clockmaker" type myth; denizens of Arda have their own will and there is no deterministic sense in which events are pre-ordained.

Is Melkor the God of Pride?
My impression regarding Melkor was that his desire was to create for himself. His initial sin was pride, and belief that his will should prevail over others'. To me, this has moral resonance about how we (mis)use power, and links right through the Sil and LOTR to the likes of Saruman and even Ted Sandyman.

When it became apprarent that this is not possible, jealousy and hatred are born, and the will simply to destroy what others have created.

Very interesting contrast between Sauron and Melkor. Clearly, S learned a lot from Aule!

Were there Ainur who didn't enter Arda?
I seem to recall that not all of the Ainur chose to enter Arda. Is there any info in the secondary sources such as HOME about these? If they were involved in the Music, their personalities ought to be reflected in Arda.

cheers

d

PS - I'm also an Ulmo fan. I'm sure Manwe's a dude, but Ulmo was a bit more hands-on.

[Rían]

this is really strange - Dunadan, aren't there some posts missing, where we talked about the miruvor??

[Maedhros]

Who knows what any of us will be doing THAT far in the future. 2 weeks might be more than enough time to discuss some of the shorter chapters.
Well, some people take the Sil very seriously, and if the chapter would only be what is in the Published Silmarillion, who might be correct, but the idea of the discussion was to try and expand it more using HOME and Unfinished Tales.
RÃ*an mentioned the significance of Ulmo having no siblings and no spouse, and he didn't seek the other Ainur's company in the Undying Lands, but stayed close to Middle-Earth. I wonder if Ulmo wandered alone because he was often dissenting with the other Ainur, or if it was the other way around, he had (and followed) his own ideas because he was alone? If you follow me.
Perhaps, this might have something to do with the fact that Ulmo was the most skilled in music than the other Ainur.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Dunadan
I seem to recall that not all of the Ainur chose to enter Arda. Is there any info in the secondary sources such as HOME about these? If they were involved in the Music, their personalities ought to be reflected in Arda.

You are correct; I replied to this a few days ago, but that was one of the posts that fell into the Internet Black Hole a few days ago, so here it is again: from the Sil, Ainulindalë:
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

It reminds me of how in C.S. Lewis' (Tolkien's good friend) Space Trilogy the angelic beings are associated with different planets. Also, how the concepts of love and commitment go together; Ilúvatar didn't just say "well, just stick around Arda until you get tired of it, and then you can come back". They are bound to it forever; until the end.

[Wayfarer]

I like to think that most phenomenon in middle earth can be explained scientifically-that is, through physical or metaphysical rules which can be known and applied to the world.

It's interesting that, if you use this approach, quite a bit of the valar's behavior can be explained using very few principles.

The valar's voluntary imprisonment within ea, melkor's bonding himself to the earth, and the way ulmo practically never leaves water, all point to the valar being somehow tied to the objects in which they have placed their power.

Melkor had poured a great deal of himself into the earth, 'morgoth's ring'. This is the most likely reason why he lost his power in the upper airs.
And Ulmo, who was the (mostly) undisputed master of water, is only shown communicating with humans and elves through a body of water. It's almost as if he couldn't operate when removed from his element.

I think that the investment of power can also be used to explain why in certain instances valar or maiar became attached to a certain body.

Melkor, again, as an example, was permanantly scarred by several different wounds. Why couldn't he heal? Or the way sauron, after his first body was destroyed, couldn't make himself pretty anymore.

If i am correct, then this is simply an outgrowth of the energy investment principle. I think that, when an ainur becomes incarnate, they must literally create a body for themselves, by turning energy into matter. And since a little bit of matter is equal to a whole lot of energy, this would be a huge expenditure. So once the body is harmed or destroyed, there isn't any reserve power to fix it or make a new one, and there's no way of getting back the power that's been invested.

[Wayfarer]

Yess!

Stopped you all cold, didn't I? ]: )

[Earniel]

Fne, you just wait until friday when I'm rid of those two presentations. :p

[Rían]

I'm still in shock over you saying (in another thread) that Legolas' dad had dark hair! :eek: :eek: Go back and read your Hobbit, young man!! *pelts Wayfarer with lembas*

[Wayfarer]

*/eats lembas for breakfast.

[Rían]

You're welcome! :D :D

[Wayfarer]

*/rubs stomach.

Got any more?

[Artanis]

Now, now, Wayfarer. *waves finger* We don't want you to behave like Pip, do we?
:D

[Rían]

Do we sound like a couple of moms or what, Artanis! :D

BTW, Wayfarer, is your room cleaned up and your homework finished? :D

[Wayfarer]

No, and No.

You sure there's not any more? I hear lembas goes good with eggnog.

[Sister Golden Hair]

No more, it will spoil your appetite.

And if you all don't get back on topic, the granny is going to give you all a spanking.:D

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
If i am correct, then this is simply an outgrowth of the energy investment principle. I think that, when an ainur becomes incarnate, they must literally create a body for themselves, by turning energy into matter. And since a little bit of matter is equal to a whole lot of energy, this would be a huge expenditure. So once the body is harmed or destroyed, there isn't any reserve power to fix it or make a new one, and there's no way of getting back the power that's been invested.

I'm not so sure. I found a quote in the sil concerning Yavanna:

In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from its branches there spills a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwë spoke in its leaves.

This implies that she could take other shapes relatively easy. On the other hand none of her shapes was ever hurt so your theory still stands, I guess. Personally I think the fact that Morgoth and Sauron couldn't 'repear' their shapes was because they had grown too attached to it. Morgoth and Sauron both wanted to control, to subdue (no that's not the right word... *runs to dictionnary*) subject (?) things. They were pretty materialistic, a trait the other Valar seemingly didn't share that much. Both dark lords poured more of themselves into their fysical form, unlike the other Valar who wore it more like rainment. At least that's the impression I got.

[Wayfarer]

That's the impression I got as well.

[Dunadan]

At the risk of going off-topic, what did people think of the portrayal of Gandalf's resurrection in TTT?

I'd always imagined this was the closest we'd get in Tolkien's own writing to a description of what happens when a Maia loses its material body. I was always under the impression that he returned to the Halls of Mandos, "but was sent back for a while", which would counter the suggestion that the Ainur are tied to a specific body, or of losing power to create a new one. Olorin came back more powerful, remember.

I liked the image of the stars in his eyes, but then it went all Dr Who on us. A few glimpses of Valinor wouldn't have gone amiss:D

cheers, and happy xmas

(I'm off till 6th Jan! Beezer holiday...)

d.:D :D

[Rían]

I'll have to see the movie again, I can't remember much about Gandalf, I was so upset about the icky Theoden!!

But here's a bit from "Letters of JRR Tolkien": from letter #156
Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtongue: 'I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving-man'. ...... Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success. That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned.......Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater.

[Rían]

Well, our 3 weeks of "Valaquenta" are just about done - thanks, everyone, for your enjoyable and insightful posts. Unless there are any last-minute comments, I'll be seeing you all in the next chapter thread :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well done everyone. Artanis will be posting her chapter early tomorrow.

[Earniel]

Yes, this was a very interesting discussion. I'm having high hopes for the other chapters. :)

[Earniel]

Heh, rereading this thread has been a nice blast from the past. I find that I still think about the Valar much the same way as I did a good fifteen years ago.

But there are some things in this chapter that I think I missed earlier. At least, they feel like a new discovery to me now.

A first one is that while many of the Valar (and Maiar) have clearly been inspired by our Earth's mythologies. (There's a sky god, a sea god and an earth god as the three most powerful beings. There is a vegetation goddess, a divine hunter, a weaver of fates, a god for the dead asssociated with a god for sleep... etc)

There are a few figures that do not have such clear parallels that I can find. Varda is one. While our mythologies and cultures often have light gods and goddesses, it is rarer to have one mostly associated with stars and at the same time so powerful. The same goes for Nienna, who is equally counted among the nine most powerful Valar, and yet her field is mourning. This is interesting and do colour Tolkien's pantheon distinctly.

A second realisation concerns the Maiar, whose number and names are mostly unknown to the Children of Ilúvatar because they appeared so little to them. This seem to indicate there may have been a sufficient number and that many have been journeying all over the place from Aman to the rest of Arda and that they were free to do so. But that they just didn't show themselves to the Children or made their name and nature known. And just because the Children didn't know them, their stories have not been recorded. Even of Olorin it is said that he wandered among the Elves unseen or in their shape. Which made me wonder, did Olorin do that only in Aman or did he too journey to Arda under Starlight, perhaps even guiding the just awakened Eldar to Aman? How many Maiar were there in Arda, perhaps even opposing Melkor there, that we do not know of? How often did they meddle with the Children without their knowing? There's plenty of fanfic fodder here, I think.

A last one is that that Balrogs were not among Morgoth's servants initially, but ones he had to tempt with 'lies and treacherous gifts'. I wonder what those gifts and lies had been because whatever they were, the Balrogs never seemed to waver in their allegiance with Melkor after their initial deflection.

They don't seem to have been offered the same shot at redemption as Melkor was either, despite being fairly powerful servants.

And I don't recall it being mentioned but were the Balrogs also servants of Aulë initially? If so those seem to be disproportionally inclined to rebellion. Sauron was one, and Saruman likely too. I wonder whether there is a parallel to the House of the Mole in Gondolin, associated with the earth's riches, mining and metallurgy whose treachery (or at least Maeglin's, who was its lord) also led to the fall of Gondolin.

Now that I type this, I'm inclined to think it is, and that it perhaps all fits in an even broader theme: as a recurrent metaphor for Tolkien's dislike of the 'Dark Satanic Mills' destroying the peaceful green England? Certainly it recalls again Saruman's destructive love of machines and manufacture that marred the Shire in LoTR.

[Valandil]

Interesting observations - especially that part about Aule's servants.