Why didn't they save him?

[Blackboar]

How come in FotR in Moria whan Gandalf was hanging off the
broken bridge; why didn't sombody run up and save him?
Frodo tried but Aragorn held him back! Why didn't thay pull him
up? Help him? Not just stand their watching him fall?:confused:

[Sween]

Originally posted by Blackboar
How come in FotR in Moria whan Gandalf was hanging off the
broken bridge; why didn't sombody run up and save him?
Frodo tried but Aragorn held him back! Why didn't thay pull him
up? Help him? Not just stand their watching him fall?:confused:

its not really explained in the film (well techincally not the book either till the two towers) but basically gandalf (i am asuming your new to the world of tolkien) is not human he is the same type of creature (kinda) as the balrog and when he confrounted him he had to finish the job.

Gandalf lets go of the bridge he does not techincally fall

[Lizra]

I got the impression the Balrog's fire whip thing was wrapped around Gandalf's foot, pulling him down. If they had tried to pull him up, they would have gone with him!

[Sween]

Originally posted by Lizra
I got the impression the Balrog's fire whip thing was wrapped around Gandalf's foot, pulling him down. If they had tried to pull him up, they would have gone with him!

plus gandalfs a big boy he can look after himself. No the whip dislodges itself in the movie so its not like hes been dragged down i allways felt he just went down to face his foe.

Moving to a more bookish discussion here would the balrog of persude them out of moria if gandalf had just fled?

[Starr Polish]

Gandalf did have to finish the job, but I don't think the rest of the company (except maybe Legolas) would have known about this. In the book Aragorn and Boromir do run to help him while he is actually fighting the balrog, but they can't do anything.

The bridge was broken, and probably couldn't hold much weight, even hobbit weight. Also, I'm not sure Frodo tried to run after Gandalf until AFTER he fell, which wouldnt' have done much good. It makes sense that Boromir (I dont' think it was Aragorn) who held him back.

[Elf.Freak]

I agree, why didn't they save Gandalf? *gasp* :eek: maybe they didn't like him! j/k! :rolleyes:

[Renille]

I don't think the balrog could really go out of Moria. After all, we don't know whether or not he had stable wings...if the bridge couldn't support a hobbit, how could it have supported a huge, age old creature? And if it DID have wings...wouldn't the opening be too small? If the balrog had a way to go out of Moria, I'm pretty sure it would have used it before. But you never know.

And yes, no one really knew Gandalf was falling until it was too late. And then,they had to obey his last wish, and not risk their own lives futilely (is that a word?) trying to save their leader. It was pretty sad. But at least...well, I won't spoil anything for people who haven't read TTT yet.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Renille
I don't think the balrog could really go out of Moria. After all, we don't know whether or not he had stable wings...if the bridge couldn't support a hobbit, how could it have supported a huge, age old creature? And if it DID have wings...wouldn't the opening be too small? If the balrog had a way to go out of Moria, I'm pretty sure it would have used it before. But you never know.

And yes, no one really knew Gandalf was falling until it was too late. And then,they had to obey his last wish, and not risk their own lives futilely (is that a word?) trying to save their leader. It was pretty sad. But at least...well, I won't spoil anything for people who haven't read TTT yet.

in answer to your question could a blarog get out of moria, it is yes most certianally seeing as it did. Its climbs the endless stair legging it from gandalf and eventually come out on top of the mountian.

why didnt the blarog leave moria is a good question mind it was probably in some way under the duristriction of sauron and he was protecting the pass under moria for his servents

[Artanis]

I think Sween is right. Gandalf did not fall, but let go to give the rest of the Fellowship a chance to get away, out of Moria. He sacrifices himself, and goes to fight the balrog, for the sake of the quest.

[Nurvingiel]

Plus, they respected Gandalf when he said, "Fly, you fools!"

If Gandalf tells you to do something, you do it, even though it doesn't make sense.

[Gerbil]

Moria was basically the Balrog's kingdom.
In the same way that Sauron never left Mordor, the Balrog stayed in Moria.
Also, bear in mind he might still technically be in hiding - the Balrogs that survived (the Silmarillion implies more than 1 did I think) were fleeing from the wrath of the Valar - no reason to assume the Balrog considered it safe. Indeed, he might well have been aware of the power of the Istari, and, guessing whence they were sent from, believed himself to have been saught out - the more so since Gandalf has several times including this time been into Moria. I doubt the Balrog would have been unaware of this, and would be wary to say the least.

[Lizra]

Well, If you all are sure that the fire whip released gandalf, and he fell of his own free will, then I feel better about it!

[The Ringbearer]

Assorted family members of mine were asking me this earlier (me being the LotR knowitall of the household;) ), and my answer was basically what I heard here.
Aragorn or Boromir would have run out there and saved him if possible. And I'm sure Frodo would have even if it WASN'T safe...:rolleyes: Also Gandalf TOLD them to scat. You don't just disobey him like that! Beside being potentially dangerous to others surrounding you, it could have painful reprecusions...

[WallRocker]

Plus, they respected Gandalf when he said, "Fly, you fools!"

True. If Gandalf tells you to do something, you don't disobey. Also, if Frodo had fallen into Khazad-Dun, the quest could have been ruined in Moria.

[Dunadan]

It's different in the book: he is dragged down by the balrog's whip. I was a bit puzzled as to why, in the movie, he's unable to pull himself up. Couldn't Legolas have pulled him up by the beard or something?

As to why the balrog didn't come out beforehand and wreak havoc, I think the answer is in the Silmarillion. Didn't the balrogs flee from the destruction of Thangorodrim and hide themselves "in the deep places of the world"? Balrogs wouldn't want to reveal themselves in case they attracted too much attention from the Valar.

[Draken]

Haven't re-checked the book but I'm sure that in the book Gandalf is dragged down by the whip. In the film the whip definitely releases - this I think to allow Gandalf his parting sound bite. Would have been silly to have him saying those last few words while supporting a few tons of Balrog.

And yes I also agree with the reasons quoted for the Balrog being there - it had fled there after a severe butt kicking from the most powerful army ever. Like the ring itself, I think it was biding its time to answer Sauron's call when the time was right - able to leave if it wished, but in no hurry to do so until then.

[azalea]

In the book he is pulled off and then falls into the depths, and yells "Fly, you fools!" In the movie PJ wanted it to be a different kind of moment, and changed it to him looking at them and whispering it. I can't think of why Aragorn, Legolas or Gimli wouldn't run and at least try to help him in the movie, the way it's filmed, but obviously they couldn't actually help him or it REALLY would have changed things!:)
Wow, what a scene that would be -- the Balrog bursting forth from Moria in pursuit of the Fellowship!

[Lizra]

Oh my poor Gandalf! The pain, the pain! So the water put out the balrogs fire, but (i'm too busy to get my books out) then how much of a formidible foe was he without the fire? Was he still an incredible hulk that swords were of no use for?

[Gerbil]

I should imagine so.
Remember, these corrupted Miair are drawing on the same resources as Gandalf - they have powers beyond the physical.

[Nunc]

lizra, I believe he became "A thing of slime" and Gandalf was only able to pursue him by holding onto his heel.

[Lizra]

Well! that tells us a lot! :) A "thing of slime"! Hmmmm. Ughhh!:D

[Nurvingiel]

Yeah, I remember Gandalf describing the Balrog's shape-changing abilities in TTT.

Towards the end of the battle it was shape-changing madly, but Gandalf had it licked!

[Entlover]

I agree with Azalea - it's hard to see why the fellowship didn't make an effort to haul Gandalf back up - he hung there a minute or so (I haven't timed it!). Possibly they were so stunned by the reversal of fortune that they couldnt't move, except for Frodo who did try.

[olsonm]

Frodo did make an effort, Boromir wisely stoped him. Aragorn is not shown from the time Gandalf is caught by the whip till he let's go of the bridge, so it's hard to say what he did. He was clearly further down the stairs than the others. It's very possible that he couldn't see Gandalf till he climbed back over the lip of the bridge. That would only give him a few seconds to react before Gandalf tells him to fly.

[Elfhelm]

You can't measure movie time with a stopwatch. It's like the countdown that takes forever to enact. At moments like that, time is stretched. If you've ever been in an accident in a car, you'll know what I mean. It's called psychological time. The one second or so of his hanging by his fingertips was stretched by the film to several seconds to give you an imporession of the experience of the character. But it still doesn't matter. No matter if they tried to get to him (and some did) or not, he was already fallen.

Because he chose to do it. He wasn't done with the Balrog yet.

You can see it in his eyes when he decides to stop supressing his powers and start using them. When the Istari were sent to Middle Earth they were told to be discrete with their powers, but Gandalf knew the time had come to use them openly - because the Balrog was an equal power (though he proved no match for Gandalf in the end). Flame of Anor vs. Flame of Udun - the secret fire is strongest because it lies at the heart of creation.

Also, the transformation is essential for him to become Gandalf the White and to replace Saruman (formerly the White) of No Color as the leader of the Istari.

And it was also time for Aragorn to start leading the Fellowship, as Gandalf tells him at that time. You don't get to see it in the film, but within a few hours Aragorn makes his first kingly act, deciding that, if the dwarf must be blindfolded to enter Lothlorien, they will all wear blindfolds. That's the argument going on in the background in the new scene. He makes the elves relent and allow the dwarf to enter the forest, and then Gimli sees it all and learns to appreciate elves and then dwarves and elves don't hate each other so much.... all because Gandalf knew when the time was right for himself and for Aragorn.

[Nurvingiel]

Nice post Elfhelm! :)

One thing that confuses me though, is that Gandalf vehemently didn't want to go to Moria. I'm sure he knew the Balrog was there the whole time.
If the Balrog had fallen into the abyss he obviously wouldn't die, but he also wouldn't hinder the Fellowship anymore.
Or, maybe the Balrog would be mad enough to come after them. In that case Gandalf probably knew that.

[crickhollow]

But in the book, Gandalf wanted to go through the mines, and Aragorn was the one that protested, saying something to the effect of fearing for Gandalf's safety if they went that way.

My personal opinion about why PJ changed that one little detail, is so that Frodo would develope some kind of guilt complex for choosing the path that led to the "death" of Gandalf.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by crickhollow
My personal opinion about why PJ changed that one little detail, is so that Frodo would develope some kind of guilt complex for choosing the path that led to the "death" of Gandalf.

I agree and in the extended edition, Boromir says to Frodo something like: "do not carry the weight of the dead", by which he means Gandalf's death.

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I agree and in the extended edition, Boromir says to Frodo something like: "do not carry the weight of the dead", by which he means Gandalf's death. interesting. I haven't seen the extended edition yet. It's my treat for if/when I make it through finals.

[Bridget]

OF COURSE nobody helped Gandalf in the movie. To be true to the book he had to fall in, (Iwas upset about it too tho) and what Tolkien wrote was: With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard's knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. "Fly you fools!" he cried, and was gone.

They made him hang on for dramatic emphasis, and to give him a chance to say his line, and act out the emotion, and then he had to fall, because it's a crucial part of the story. And he is NOT like a Balrog. He's immortal, yes, but most definately NOT like a Balrog.

[Nurvingiel]

Maybe what people are disagreeing with is how he fell in as opposed to whether he should have or not. When I read that scene, I always picture Gandalf yelling, "Fly, you fools!" with the whip still wrapped around his ankle.

My treat for making it through finals is watching The Two Towers, which comes out the day after I get back! :D Good luck Crickhollow!

[Entlover]

Good luck on finals, Nurvingiel!

True, there is a distinction between the author's purpose and that of the characters. We all know Tolkien determined that Gandalf had to fall in, but what we're asking is, why the others didn't rescue him. (They can't read Tolkien's mind.)
Elfhelm's point about psychological time is a beautiful one - I never thought of that. I've been in a car accident, and those 45 or so seconds lasted much longer, I'll swear.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think in the movie that Gandalf also told the Fellowship that the Balrog was a foe beyond any of them. The only one in the company that could even be considered its match would be Gandalf. I don't think that was in the book where he says that to them, but it does stay true to the story, because even in the Sil, no Elf or Man survived a battle with a Balrog. There was no hope for anyone in the Fellowship to save him, either in the book, or the movie.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
There was no hope for anyone in the Fellowship to save him, either in the book, or the movie.*Enter Xen-Arwen, her flashing sword and force-whispered elvish magic warding off the hulking balrog*

Hey, she's not part of the Fellowship... right? :D

[BeardofPants]

You know these xen-arwen jokes are getting a bit predictable. :rolleyes:

[Nibs]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
You know these xen-arwen jokes are getting a bit predictable. :rolleyes: So you saw that one coming, did you?

Anyway, I don't think Gandalf was obliged to face the balrog. He was dragged down in the book, and had to pursue it to leave Moria (or did he?).

But, in the movie, after Gandalf had caused the balrog to fall, he turned to rejoin the Fellowship and then was caught by the balrog's whip, which made him fall. Make of it what you will.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I don't think that was in the book where he says that to them
I thought that this line was lifted directly from the book. I'm pretty sure he says something like this because Aragorn and Boromir are all set to get fired into the balrog.

The only difference I can see between book and film here is that in the book, it's implied that the whip is still round him when he falls, whereas in the film he falls after the whip has let go. Again, presumably to allow him to deliver his "fly..!" line.

On a related note, I was a bit annoyed that it was Gandalf who was depicted as being afraid to enter Moria; in the book, it's Aragorn who has misgivings, and has prescience of Gandalf's peril.

[Nurvingiel]

I always thought, deep down, GAndalf wanted to face the Balrog. Or maybe he knew he would have to face it, and accepted that.
Gandalf has a certain amount of foresight, that, in some situations, lets him 'predict' the future.

[Elfhelm]

I recall that the line was lifted from the book, but it might be a paraphrase.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dunadan
The only difference I can see between book and film here is that in the book, it's implied that the whip is still round him when he falls, whereas in the film he falls after the whip has let go. Again, presumably to allow him to deliver his "fly..!" line.In the film, I get the impression he's trying to climb up again, but then he looks up and see the rest of the Fellowship standing there watching, with Frodo restrained from leaping forward to help by Boromir. And then he falls on purpose, after delivering his 'Fly, you fools' line. He sacrifices himself to a balrog's fire to save the rest of the Fellowship.

[Blackboar]

Thats the impression I got