Better than LOTR?

[AudrentheRanger]

IS the Hobbit better than LOTR? I don't think so.

[Miranda]

They're too different to compare! LOTR is very much darker than the Hobbit. The hobbit is good to start with I think as its easier going than LOTR but I found my favourite lay with the six and not the hobbit but I s'pose it depends on what you're in to. Mx

[Duddun]

I loved The Hobbit! But LotR I also loved. I don't know which I favor.

[Blackboar]

*splutters into coffee*

Better than LotR; I don't think so. But don't get me wrong!

I LOVE the Hobbit.

[Goldberry1]

I prefer LOTR to The Hobbit, only because when I first tried to read The Hobbit, I couldn't get into it because the first chapter wasn't really exciting. Also because when I saw FOTR movie, it got me interested in LOTR. But they both are very good!

[Khamûl]

It's like comparing apples and oranges. The Hobbit is good to read before LotR because you have an idea about what's going on, and you already know about how Bilbo got the Ring and such. Plus, it's a great story even if it is more geared toward children. But like I said, you really can't compare the two.

[Blackboar]

I know why I prefer LotR now:cool:
The Hobbit is good but it dosn't really explain much and set a picture in your mind. I coudn't imagine Bag end a much as I did when I read LotR. :p

[Radagast The Brown]

LOTR is better then the hobbit. much better (just my opinion of course).

[Nibs]

They both have an exceptional amount of good merits.

And they're part of the same story, so I consider them fairly equal.

[Utúllelyo]

It is odd when i think about it. To not be able to compare the two, but it is true you realy can't. It has similar strengths and views i think, which make both of them quite appealing. In fact my brother was reading a little bit of the hobbit to me while I immersed myself in my ME art, as he usualy does at those ungodly hours of the night when we talk and philosophise about the world and Tolkien. And i was surprised at how earnest and pure and not to mention wise(in the ways of war and suffering in particular) dear Bilbo was.
His want for content, and a comfortable chair by the fire during travels over mountains and under wood, realy touch me. His presence of mind during dire and dark times. Bilbo is our first real example of the heart of a hobbit. And that is a priceless gift. The first insight into such a wonderfull character. All of which make the Hobbit simply and wonderfully enjoyable. Where as LotR gives us what we long for, a deeper and more perceptive look into such characters and their races. It quenches our thirst for more(momentarily). And so the joys of reading both The Hobbit and LotR are akin, but very much different. Resulting in the impossiblity for me to say which was "better".

-Utúlio-

[Eothain]

There about the same.

[celeb-galad]

The Hobbit is (more or less) a story for children. It is a very satisfying read, but not as captivating as the LOTR, by far.:)

[Shadowfax]

LotR is most definitely better than the Hobbit. I did enjoy the Hobbit though, but LotR has so many more characters, relationships between those characters, plot twists, surprises, romance, and it is darker. And I believe it is written on a deeper level than the Hobbit.

[samwiselvr2008]

I would rather have Lord of the Rings, it is longer and more indepth! I do love The Hobbit, but if I could eather ceep a copy of LOTR or The Hobbit, I would pick LOTR any day!

[Skinny.Demon]

The Hobbit doesn't contain the detail like Lord Of The Rings does. Its a good book, and a much better read than I ever thought it would be, but LOTR is much more complex and intriging..

[WallRocker]

You really can't compare the two books. The Hobbit is a much better book for younger kids to read. Not that everyone can't read it though! My Mom read the Hobbit, and didn't read LOTR because she didn't like LOTR as much as the Hobbit. I perfer LOTR but The Hobbit is good as well.

[Artanis]

Both are great books, but different in style and tone. It's difficult to compare them. The first time I read The Hobbit I was disappointed, since I had read the LotR trilogy first and expected The Hobbit to be held in the same style. Reading it a second time I didn't expect much, and the experience turned out much better :) . But still I prefer LotR beyond question.

[Beleg Strongbow]

LOTR. Definitely. Even JRRT thought so.

WallRocker, is the originator of your signature dead? ;)

[Varda Oiolosseo]

Yeah!! I preffer LOTR !!!!
I still love the Hobbit though just not as much! :)

[Skinny.Demon]

General feeling is that LOTR is better!! It just is..

[Beleg Strongbow]

deeper? More intruiging? a better read?

[Varda Oiolosseo]

And longer and can take you longer which is good!
Because once you start reading you know it's going to last longer!!! And after a while...infact straight away you are living in Middle-Earth for a while...I live there all the time actually! :D

[Skinny.Demon]

Thats not a bad place to live...:D

[Legolas_is_fit]

Dont get me wrong the hobbit is an amazing book and it would be good to make a film. But the fact is LOTR is like the most thrilling and exciting book I've ever read.:p

[Blackboar]

I agree with you there Legolas_!!
I think in LotR you can imagine more!! More chracters etc!

eg at the begining of TH I couln't imagine Bag end, just a random hole in the middle of nowhere.

[L@ur@y Elven Warrior]

I like The Hobbit and LoTR but I like the The Hobbit better.

[Noahamir]

I enjoy the Lord of the Rings more as a story, but I think that I enjoy Bilbo as a Character more than any other character in either book.

His Clever Dialogue with Smaug is my favorite moment off all the books, followed by his funny song he sings to piss of the Spiders in Mirkwood.

[Lady of Rohan]

i like lotr more then the hobbit but both books where really good. i like lotr better because there is more to imagine (and more to get confused about) and it is more exciting. not to say that the hobbit wasn't exciting or any thing!:)

[Legolaslvr!]

Yeah I think LOTR is better than the HOBBIT there is more to imagine, more characters! and mor places and the Hobbit doesn't have a movie that isn't animated though i have not seen it.:D :D

[FattyBulger]

If I cut a LOTR book as short as the Hobbit, I think I'd enjoy the Hobbit better because Bilbo is the best and there are lots of Dwarves and Roac the Raven.:D :D :D

[Thrain]

Tough question but I think that LOTR is better than the Hobbit because it just has a better story line, but I probably never would have read LOTR if I hadn't read the Hobbit first. Before the Hobbit the books were just books but when my dad read the Hobbit to me at age six I was entranced. My dad said that LOTR would be too hard for me at age six so I waited until I was twelve and then read it in like three months.

[The Lady of the Wood]

i love both, but i love LOTR more!

[Haradrim]

Which book did you like better and why. Ill respond later. I wanna see what you people say first.

[Nurvingiel]

I don't think you can make such a distiction. If I was seven, I'd definitely say the Hobbit. But now that I can read both, how could I possibly choose?

One might argue the Hobbit, because it led to LOTR, and is one of the greatest children's books of all time. One might argue LOTR because it is one of the greatest epic fanatasy tales and shaped modern fantasy writing. There are countless arguments on both sides.

The Hobbit or LOTR... that's like saying... which do you prefer, your left leg or your right leg! :D

[Radagast The Brown]

There are already threads like this -
http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=6251

[Haradrim]

personally my right. And so what if there are other threads. Its still worth discussing. We havea ton of newbies. I never discussed it and Im sure others havent. Dont just close it down. And for me the Hobbit just is pure joy for me but LOTR gives me a whole range of emotions. Its hard to pick but for me I have to say personally the Hobbit because I can still imagine it and not imagine what they alaready made.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree, of course it's worth discussing Haradrim. But I don't think RTB was saying it wasn't. Maybe we should bump up (or merge with) the old thread.

Psst... Valandil... can you merge us? :D

Our comments would be even more interesting with the older comments for more context.

[Haradrim]

Ooh lets merge. Merging would be fun. So who else thinks Hobbit rocks LOTR sox! or vice versa. Come one come all to the dancing hall!

[Valandil]

Psst... Valandil... can you merge us? :D

merged... :)

You have TWO wishes left! :p ;)

[Radagast The Brown]

personally my right. And so what if there are other threads. Its still worth discussing. We havea ton of newbies. I never discussed it and Im sure others havent. Dont just close it down. And for me the Hobbit just is pure joy for me but LOTR gives me a whole range of emotions. Its hard to pick but for me I have to say personally the Hobbit because I can still imagine it and not imagine what they alaready made.As Nurv said, I didn't say it doesn't worth discussing - I just pointed that there's no reason to open a new thread about the same subject.. Did you search before you posted the new thread? Maybe you'd find this thread, and could bump it yourself, instead of openning a new one. :)

Well, in my opinion Lord of the rings is a much better book than the Hobbit. I just enjoyed it more... probably has some reasons - The hobbit is kinda childish... I mean, Tolkien tried it to be for chuildren - and in my opinion he suceeded, and did even a better job, as adults can enjoy it as well - but LotR
that was meant to be for adults is better, from this reason. It's more serious and detailed.

[Nurvingiel]

merged... :)

You have TWO wishes left! :p ;)
Nice merge Val, are you catching up to Eärniel yet? :D For my next wish, I wish for a million more wishes! :evil:

As has been mentioned previously in this (newly merged) thread, it's hard to compare The Hobbit and LOTR. In my opinion, if you say LOTR is better because The Hobbit is more childish, that's like saying you like adult books better. There's nothing wrong with that of course.

Is there any possible way we could judge the books on their own merits and then compare the two? Or is it apples and oranges - they are both great fruit.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think the easiest way just to think which did you enjoy more. :) I was giving reasons, what may have caused it; I just liked LotR better, and the Sil the best. :)

[Nurvingiel]

I see what you mean Radagast. That's probably the most valid way to compare them.

Let's see... for me they are still equal. Though I deeply enjoyed them in different ways, my love for these two books is still the same. I love the Sil, but I love LOTR and The Hobbit more. :)

[Something]

I think The Hobbit is a funnier book than LOTR.
I remember I laughed very much the first time I read it.

But I don`t think it is better than LOTR.
I love them both.

[BeardofPants]

There are already threads like this -
http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=6251

Ahem. Haradrim: Posting and You (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php) :p

Wow, how did I ever miss this thread the first time 'round?! :eek: Well, for me LOTR blows lil' ol' hobbit outta the water. I remember trying to read the hobbit for the first time when I was 11, and being bored silly. Three years later, I read LOTR with relatively few problems. Don't get me wrong, I love the Hobbit, but it's nothing on the complexity of LOTR, or the Silmarillion.

[Earniel]

Ooh, an old thread! I was already wondering why all those names came up of people who I haven't seen here for ages. :p
Wow, how did I ever miss this thread the first time 'round?! :eek: My thoughts exactly. :D

Nice merge Val, are you catching up to Eärniel yet? :D
Nehheh, not a chance! ;)

I definitely preferred LoTR better than the Hobbit. If it wasn't for LoTR I might never have considered giving the Hobbit a reread. Nevertheless, you can't really compare the two IMO. LoTR is many times the size of the Hobbit so it naturally has more place for depth. And since the Hobbit is geared at children, the stories are really different. Still, one has to give the lil' Hobbit credit, without it we would never had had the literary wonder that is LoTR and basically we wouldn't be discussing this here on the Entmoot today.

[LickTheEnvelope]

Actually I preffered the Hobbit to LOTR... don't know why. Perhaps the Dragon, or the fact it was the first one I read. :o

[Earniel]

It is your good right to like the Hobbit better, LTE. :) Welcome to the Entmoot, by the way!

[Pytt]

I think LoTR is better. It was the first of the books I read( or more correctly heard), and besides I think the LoTR is more magic, more thrilling.

[Elemmírë]

I think the easiest way just to think which did you enjoy more. :) I was giving reasons, what may have caused it; I just liked LotR better, and the Sil the best. :)

Same here. :p

A lot of people don't like the Silm as much... for me, I think it's a love/obsession for history combined with an equal love/obsession for Elves.

And though not nearly as detailed, for me a lot of the stories in the Silm are better than LotR.

And I definitely prefer LotR to the Hobbit. That could be partly because I don't like Hobbits at all and don't particularly care for Dwarves either.

[ItalianLegolas]

its hard to compare the 2, because the Hobbit is a somewhat quick read, and the LoTR is a huge novel, but if i had to compare the two, i would say that LoTR is better, hands down

[Embladyne]

I definitely liked both. Sure, LOTR has a more developed plot, and many more characters, but the Hobbit has it's own gems. And I don't think that I would appreciate any of Tolkien's stories as much without the rest of his work to flesh out ME.

[Roland]

I think that it depends what you consider "better". The Hobbit is overall a much happier story, where most of the characters live happily ever after etc., whereas The Lord of the Rings has a much more developed story line.

[me9996]

IS the Hobbit better than LOTR? I don't think so.

True! (I recently tryed to read it again and found it boreing)

[Mrs.Gimli]

you are right! IN th movie it is not as good!

[Mrs.Gimli]

you are totalyyyyy right

[Embladyne]

you are totalyyyyy rightYou might want to be more specific. So, do you prefer the Hobbit, or Lord of the Rings?
Oh, and wander on over to the welcoming thread, and introduce yourself. :D

[Mrs.Gimli]

I liked the Lord of the rings better than the Hobbit and if you like the Hobbit better than I can not change that,,,,,,,,,,,But the Hobbit was funnier than LOTR :rolleyes: :cool: :D

[Mrs.Gimli]

I liked the Lord of the rings better than the Hobbit and if you like the Hobbit better than I can not change that,,,,,,,,,,,But the Hobbit was funnier than LOTR :rolleyes: :cool: :D I am Arwen PLEASE LISTEN TO ME :)

[ItalianLegolas]

LoTR is better just because it has more adventure and danger, but that doesn't diminish the greatness of the Hobbit

[Elemmírë]

I hate the Hobbit. :p

But I have my personal reasons.

You're Arwen, Mrs. Gimli? Me, I'm Amárië. :)

[Mrs.Gimli]

I am more like Eowyn.Why do you hate the Hobbit? I love it

[Pytt]

She is slighty nuts, but we just play along with her, so she don't get sad and dissapointed ;) :D Like saying Finrod is her, and that Feanor was a jerk :p

[Elemmírë]

She is slighty nuts, but we just play along with her, so she don't get sad and dissapointed ;) :D Like saying Finrod is her, and that Feanor was a jerk :p

I am not Finrod, and Fëanor is a jerk.

Mrs. Gimli, I don't like the Hobbit because I was too old when I read it (for me, at least). I read it after LOTR and the Silm, and had already (for some reason I can't figure out - perhaps I just don't like main characters) developed quite a distaste for hobbits in general.

So I didn't like the Hobbit. Maybe it simply wasn't heroic and "Nordic" enough for me. :D

[Embladyne]

Maybe it simply wasn't heroic and "Nordic" enough for me. :DMmmm....heroic.....Nordic....
Silmarillion, here I come!
I like the Hobbit and LOTR about equally, but, the Silm is where it gets good...I mean, all that history...all those hot elves... :p

[Elemmírë]

I mean, all that history...all those hot elves... :p

Mm hm. :D

Too bad they all die... :(

[me9996]

The hobbit is a prequill to LotR and LotR is the hobbits sequill.
So, I think: LotR is for older children and the hobbit is for yonger ones

[Twista]

The Hobbit is often very much associated with being a childrens book. But I tend not to agree. The main reason for this is obviously the idea of reading about "goblins and dragons" doesnt appeal to the older generation. Many might think of it as fairy tale, which is quite understandible in many ways.

However, this is disproven with the depth Tolkien shows us in his writings. Discussions of a huge nature have been demonstrated this in this very forum. Although, I do agree with you Me in some ways. It can be seen that The Hobbit is more easy to read. Lotr is written in a some what more complicated way (lets not start on the Silmarillion) so I can see where your coming from. But in my opinion, both are aimed at all age groups and it is just a common mis-conception.

[me9996]

The Hobbit is often very much associated with being a childrens book. But I tend not to agree. The main reason for this is obviously the idea of reading about "goblins and dragons" doesnt appeal to the older generation. Many might think of it as fairy tale, which is quite understandible in many ways.

However, this is disproven with the depth Tolkien shows us in his writings. Discussions of a huge nature have been demonstrated this in this very forum. Although, I do agree with you Me in some ways. It can be seen that The Hobbit is more easy to read. Lotr is written in a some what more complicated way (lets not start on the Silmarillion) so I can see where your coming from. But in my opinion, both are aimed at all age groups and it is just a common mis-conception.
Gotya.

P.S.
Post499!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

[strider8]

i love the Hobbit but i also like LOTR :)

[Small No-name]

The hobit is ok but the lotr is Much better

[Thraxon]

the hobbit was writen as a bed time story tfotr ttt trotk were not that is whate makes them better

[EarthBound]

Hobbit is the better linear story.....LOTR is rather two combined books, errr storylines, if you will.

LOTR has more meat, but the Hobbit is great fun to read to children.....and get them hooked on JRRT ;)

[Curubethion]

Hobbit is a nice little story, but it isn't even close to the epic that LOTR is.

[neofloyd]

The Hobbit was great, I read it when I was 14, I believe, and loved it, I'm reading LOTR right now, I'm a fair way into Two Towers, the part about Helm's Deep, much better then the movies, but yeah, I'm thinking about rereading the Hobbit after LOTR, or read Silmarillion, don't know yet, but anywho, The Hobbit is great for reading when you feel like reading a wacky tell, LOTR is great when your in the mood for an epic tell, so they both are great in their own way, so no, I don't think The Hobbit is better then LOTR, I think their both great in their own way. :D Confused yet, didn't so.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

as for me i prefer the LOTRS to the hobbit. the hobbit is light and LOTRS is much darker than the hobbit...don't get me wrong i olove the LOTRS!!!!

[Elanor]

Interesting question. I agree with what most people have said. I prefer LotR overall, because the story is so meaningful and complex, and appeals to readers on so many different levels. On one hand, Tolkien was telling his kids stories about Tom Bombadil and silly Father Christmas elves; on the other, he was inventing this awesome language and mythology of Numenor, Valinor, high elves, and Melkor. Then these two elements came together and created this fascinating world that contains everything from hobbits splashing water in a tub to kings commanding armies of the dead, and then there's an evil ring that exerts such a subtle but powerful effect on the world, and it's just amazing. I think the Hobbit was the first step toward that, and shows hints of the greatness to come (I particularly like the Riddle game and the Arkenstone plot), but ultimately the Lord of the Rings is the culmination of Tolkien's genius.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

the riddle game was so cool. i especially liked the riddle gollum made about the fish but i cant remember all of it so could you guys help me out?
i think it goes:
alive without breath,
as cold as death
ever drinking
never thirsting... thats all i can remember hope i said it right!!

[Faerdhinen]

Not better but ... easier, funnier, brighter. Nearly as cool as LotR. :cool:

[Gandalfthegray]

The hobbit is much more fun and relaxed, its my personal favorite. I personaly hate hobbits also, so go figure hehe.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

i agree with anyone who thinks the LOTRS is better than the hobbit. :p i think that the hobbit is more of a children's book and lighter the the LOTRS.as we have disscussed, the LOTRS is more darker and for older kids and adults, such as the hobbit is more lighter and for the younger kids. but all in all, the LOTRS IS THE BEST!!! :D

[Elanor]

the riddle game was so cool. i especially liked the riddle gollum made about the fish but i cant remember all of it so could you guys help me out?
i think it goes:
alive without breath,
as cold as death
ever drinking
never thirsting... thats all i can remember hope i said it right!!

Alive without breath,
As cold as death;
Never thirsty, ever drinking,
All in mail, never clinking.

Gandalfthegray, you hate hobbits? :eek: :(

I don't think LotR is necessarily darker than the Hobbit. It has more dark moments, but it also has plenty of light-hearted ones. The generalization I would make is that it's more complex.

But I would also say that the elves in the Hobbit are inconsistent with those in the Lord of the Rings. In LotR, you couldn't imagine elves like Elrond and Glorfindel hopping around singing, "Tra la-la-lally", and teasing the dwarves. But in the Hobbit, they do.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Alive without breath,
As cold as death;
Never thirsty, ever drinking,
All in mail, never clinking.

Gandalfthegray, you hate hobbits? :eek: :(

I don't think LotR is necessarily darker than the Hobbit. It has more dark moments, but it also has plenty of light-hearted ones. The generalization I would make is that it's more complex.

But I would also say that the elves in the Hobbit are inconsistent with those in the Lord of the Rings. In LotR, you couldn't imagine elves like Elrond and Glorfindel hopping around singing, "Tra la-la-lally", and teasing the dwarves. But in the Hobbit, they do.
thanks Elanor!! i think i will get the whole riddle because i know there is more to it but tanks for the first verse!! :)

[durinsbane2244]

the cold hard lands,
they bites are hands,
they gnaws our feet.
the rocks and stones,
are like old bones,
all bare of meat.
but stream and pool,
are wet and cool;
so nice for feet!
and now we wish-

"ha! ha! what does we wish?" he said, looking sidelong at the hobbits. "we'll tell you," he croaked. "he guessed it long ago, Baggins guessed it." a glint came into his eyes, and sam, catching the greal in the darkness, thought it far from pleasant.

alive without breath;
as cold as death;
never thirsty ever drinking;
clad in mail, never clinking.
Drowns on dry land,
thinks an island
is a mountain;
thinks a fountain
is a puff of air.
So sleek, so fair!
what a joy to meet!
we only wish,
to catch a fish,
so juicy sweet!

that's pages 227-228 of the two towers, first two pages of the passage of the marshes...you owe me one...

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

the cold hard lands,
they bites are hands,
they gnaws our feet.
the rocks and stones,
are like old bones,
all bare of meat.
but stream and pool,
are wet and cool;
so nice for feet!
and now we wish-

"ha! ha! what does we wish?" he said, looking sidelong at the hobbits. "we'll tell you," he croaked. "he guessed it long ago, Baggins guessed it." a glint came into his eyes, and sam, catching the greal in the darkness, thought it far from pleasant.

alive without breath;
as cold as death;
never thirsty ever drinking;
clad in mail, never clinking.
Drowns on dry land,
thinks an island
is a mountain;
thinks a fountain
is a puff of air.
So sleek, so fair!
what a joy to meet!
we only wish,
to catch a fish,
so juicy sweet!

that's pages 227-228 of the two towers, first two pages of the passage of the marshes...you owe me one...
oh thankyou soooo much! i dunno how to repay you. how? pmme or whatever. lol but whats the first one about? i cant recall seing that one.

[Elanor]

thanks Elanor!! i think i will get the whole riddle because i know there is more to it but tanks for the first verse!! :)

What I posted was all that Gollum says in the Hobbit. I knew there was more but he makes it up later, so it's technically not part of the riddle.

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

What I posted was all that Gollum says in the Hobbit. I knew there was more but he makes it up later, so it's technically not part of the riddle.
well thankyou anyway!

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I enjoyed The Hobbit very much. Of course, my first choice would be The Silmarillion. I did enjoy reading LOTR, but I think I prefer The Hobbit.

[inked]

A book of the writing of The Hobbit! An interview with the author/editor is here:

http://radio.nationalreview.com/betweenthecovers/post/?q=M2EyNjkyYjY4ODE1YzM2MTZhNjQxNTA3NzM1NmU5MmE=

Since I've read all of the HoME, I shall have to read this, too.:)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

This is like comparing The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe with Out of the Silent Planet.

One is a kids story and the other is an adult's story. What does "better" mean in that context? Not much.

[BeardofPants]

Just because one is an apple, and one is an orange, doesn't mean that you can't "like" one better than the other, though.

Ah, stoopid 90 second rule. :mad:

[Curufin]

Agreed - I recognize the fact that you can't really compare LotR and The Hobbit - but that doesn't mean I have to like the Hobbit, either. ;)

I just have a great deal of trouble reconciling the Elves in The Hobbit with the elves in The Silmarilion...

*tries again*

*head explodes*

:eek:

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Want a migraine? Try reconciling either of them with those in the movies!

Is your problem with Thranduil's wood elves or with the singing Rivendell elves? Or both?

[Curufin]

Both, honestly. But more the singing Rivendell elves.

They were supposed to be (at least some of them) Noldor! :eek:

Yes, Tolkien has Elves fond of singing throughout the legendarium. But they sing things like the Noldolantë or Galadriel's Lament...

Not 'tra la la lilly'!

It was just hard for me to accept it as the same universe, because they acted so differently.

And don't get me started on the movies. :eek:

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm not sure Elves lived an entirely melancholy life, though, even in the third age. This might be especially true of the Sindar and other grey and dark Elves, but even of remaining Noldor. Think of Sam's description of Galadriel, for instance.

Work calls or I'd quote it. Back in an hour or so....

[Curufin]

Hmm, I don't know. I think that by the Third Age melancholy and regret would be a major feeling among most elves...for the Noldor, of course, there's the Prophecy of Mandos:

'And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.'

And for Elves more generally, the Athrabeth speaks of memory becoming a heavy burden...

I think that by this point there would be very little joy in elves. Regret, yes. Nostalgia, yes. But any light-heartedness for the present?

Very little, I fear.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Here is what I was thinking of:
Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di'monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime.

The Elven Rings had an attenuating effect on the rate of decay, yes? Perhaps that relates to the ability to maintain joy in Rivendell and Lorien. Looking also at the banter between Elrond and Bilbo and to a lesser extent Elrond and Sam in LotR, you can't help but see a sense of humor there. I see the Elves in general as anything but dour.

Does this invalidate the prophecy of Mandos? Not to me, because he gave no hard time frame. Even Rivendell and Lorien succumbed to the waning after the power of the Rings failed.

Besides, I don't know the population of Rivendell, but one would guess it numbered in the high hundreds if not thousands. Any group that large is going to have a handful of tree-climbing, singing fools. :D

[Curufin]

Oh, I wouldn't say "dour" either.

But I do think they're sad, and nostalgic. Burdened by memory, by Arda Marred, and by the Prophecy of Mandos.

That doesn't mean that they're depressed all the time, or walk around with their heads in rainclouds, but it does mean that they're less likely to be as frivolous and carefree as the elves in the Hobbit. I can see them as having humour, yes, but of a very dry sort - not a silly, clowning around type of humour.

The Rings might have had some effect, but not that much. The fading in Middle Earth was due to Melkor's Marring, which was certainly more powerful than any good that might have come from an Elf-made ring, even if it was made by a descendant of Fëanor.

And look, I have more posts than you already. :p

[Gordis]

Both, honestly. But more the singing Rivendell elves.
They were supposed to be (at least some of them) Noldor! :eek:


Besides, I don't know the population of Rivendell, but one would guess it numbered in the high hundreds if not thousands. Any group that large is going to have a handful of tree-climbing, singing fools.

I don't think the population of Rivendell by the end of the third age was that large: a few hundreds, I guess - at most, and likely even less.

And very few of them were Noldor (at least not Calaquendi Noldor who had come from Aman). Actually the latter may be easily counted. Gildor Inglorion +his wandering company + Glorfindel + other two Elves that were deemed powerful enough to ride on their own against the nazgul.
Glorfindel: There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. [...] It was my lot to take the Road

Of what kind were the rest of Rivendell elves? Maybe Sindar, maybe Silvan. They had no bad memories to prevent them from singing 'tra la la lilly'! :D

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Are you assuming that any and all Noldor from Aman could ride against the Nazgul or is there evidence of this?

[The Gaffer]

I guess Gordis is citing Elrond at the Council saying that there were only a few who could do so.

We should remember that those elves that remained hadn't left YET; if they were that down about things they'd just head for the Havens.

(Was it Melkor's marring or was it the Valar's abandonment of Middle-Earth?)

Or maybe "tra la la lilly" is elvish for "oh god I'm soooo depressed"

[Gordis]

Are you assuming that any and all Noldor from Aman could ride against the Nazgul or is there evidence of this?

There is evidence that Calaquendi Elves don't fear nazgul as they have power in the World of Shadow:

And here in Rivendell there live still some of [Sauron's] chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. -LOTR ,"Many meetings"

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Even with that quote, I'm still not convinced all Noldor or Calaquendi are equally equipped to face the Ringwraiths. Not unless every Calaquende is also considered an Elven-wise lord of the Eldar. Maybe by that point in the 3rd Age they all are. I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like a little more convincing.

[Valandil]

Both, honestly. But more the singing Rivendell elves.

They were supposed to be (at least some of them) Noldor! :eek:

Yes, Tolkien has Elves fond of singing throughout the legendarium. But they sing things like the Noldolantë or Galadriel's Lament...

Not 'tra la la lilly'!

It was just hard for me to accept it as the same universe, because they acted so differently.

And don't get me started on the movies. :eek:

Maybe they were just sort of mocking the Dwarves. Or thought they were, and the Dwarves didn't get it. Or the Dwarves got it - and it went right over Bilbo's head. Or maybe they were making fun of the Dwarves for bringing a Hobbit along... and THAT went right over Bilbo's head.

Complex creatures, them Elves.

[Gordis]

Even with that quote, I'm still not convinced all Noldor or Calaquendi are equally equipped to face the Ringwraiths. Not unless every Calaquende is also considered an Elven-wise lord of the Eldar. Maybe by that point in the 3rd Age they all are. I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like a little more convincing.

All Calaquendi?- Yes: because they (by definition) had dwelt in the Blessed Realm, had seen the Light of the Trees, and thus got additional properties: powers in the Other World. I think the Calaquendi have become so rare by the End of TA that they were held in high esteem and called "Lords of the Eldar" irrespective of their original status in Aman.

All Noldor? - No: because a son born to two Noldor in ME would be a Noldo, but not a Calaquendi.
Elrond surely was "Elven-wise lord of the Eldar", but, born in ME, he had never set foot in Aman. He didn't ride against the nazgul in person, either in 3018, or back in 1975. Nor did he send his sons, (not even mentioning his daughter :p,).

[Curufin]

All Calaquendi?- Yes: because they (by definition) had dwelt in the Blessed Realm, had seen the Light of the Trees, and thus got additional properties: powers in the Other World. I think the Calaquendi have become so rare by the End of TA that they were held in high esteem and called "Lords of the Eldar" irrespective of their original status in Aman.

All Noldor? - No: because a son born to two Noldor in ME would be a Noldo, but not a Calaquendi.
Elrond surely was "Elven-wise lord of the Eldar", but, born in ME, he had never set foot in Aman. He didn't ride against the nazgul in person, either in 3018, or back in 1975. Nor did he send his sons, (not even mentioning his daughter :p,).

Too bad Maglor didn't choose that moment to show up and kill him some Ringwraith. :D

This does lead me to a serious question which has bothered me since the first time I read Lord of the Rings, though. Why Legolas? Why didn't they send Glorfindel with the fellowship instead, when he was so much more powerful? After all, the Balrog of Moria would have been old news for him. :)

[Gordis]

Too bad Maglor didn't choose that moment to show up and kill him some Ringwraith. :D:)
I think Maglor, even if still alive, would be long past all killings.

This does lead me to a serious question which has bothered me since the first time I read Lord of the Rings, though. Why Legolas? Why didn't they send Glorfindel with the fellowship instead, when he was so much more powerful? After all, the Balrog of Moria would have been old news for him. :)

Right because of that: they relied on stealth, not power. In nazgul's vision Glorfindel would be shining like a beacon of white light - impossible to miss. Were Glorfindel with Frodo and Sam, they would have been caught many times over: in Emyn Muil, in the Dead Marches, near the Black Gate, in the Morgul Vale and so on.

[Curufin]

I think Maglor, even if still alive, would be long past all killings.

Yes, hence the smilies. ;) And then there's the question if Maglor was ever that good of a warrior in the first place...we never really see him do anything terribly courageous, even in the first age...



Right because of that: they relied on stealth, not power. In nazgul's vision Glorfindel would be shining like a beacon of white light - impossible to miss. Were Glorfindel with Frodo and Sam, they would have been caught many times over: in Emyn Muil, in the Dead Marches, near the Black Gate, in the Morgul Vale and so on.

This is a good point that I'd forgotten about. Thanks for reminding me. But still, it seems like they could have found someone better than Legolas, who as far as I surmise, wasn't that great of a warrior as far as Elves go. They could have waited for Elladan or Elrohir (or both) to return, or I'm sure there were many other Elven-warriors...but I wonder if perhaps Tolkien was trying to enforce his theme of how even small and insignificant creatures (like Hobbits) have a part to play...

[Earniel]

We wandered a bit from the topic here. Let's get back on topic, please. :)

[Gordis]

Umm... about Legolas: see here: http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=593881&postcount=55
*runs away before Earniel returns*.:p:)

[Curufin]

Thanks, Gordis...

ANYWAY, back on topic...:D

No, I don't think The Hobbit is better than The Lord of the Rings...that said, I think The Silmarillion is better than either...