Forces of the Valar

[Sween]

this has allways been a bit perplexing to me and of great intrest also. at the comming of elves the valar sent a force to attack ulmo but what were types of people in this and the numbers?

Obvosly it would be valar and maiar on the main part but would anyone one else be there? Would any of our old favorites of taken part gandalf saurman for example.

Of the maiar is any part which states how many of these sprits entred the world? im guessing a lot more than are mentioned in lord of the rings and the sil.

[Ñólendil]

There were fourteen Valar not counting Morgoth, the number of the Maiar is specifically said to be unknown.

Eonwe was in the War of Wrath, but no one else is mentioned by name. It seems likely that Orome and Tulcas were involved, but no one knows.

[Radagast The Brown]

I always thought that all the valar went to the war , but now when you think about it, it's not logical that all of them will. I'm pretty sure that Manwe was in the war too, somehow.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think not Radagast. I think the war consisted of mostly Vanyarin Elves and the remnant of Noldorin Elves that were left in Valinor at the time of the Exile

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think not Radagast. I think the war consisted of mostly Vanyarin Elves and the remnant of Noldorin Elves that were left in Valinor at the time of the Exile

but what about the attack on undun at the comming of the elves?

I would love to envision a mssive battle of valar and maiar

[Ñólendil]

I doubt SGH meant to exclude the Maiar, but I agree that all the Valar probably did not go. Why would Eonwe, Herald of Manwe, be the general of the armies if Manwe had come? I'll believe Tulkas or Orome, but not the others.

MM had the idea that Tulkas and Orome may have gone specifically to combat the greater demons and beasts of Morgoth, respectively. I do not personally see the need for sending (say) Ulmo or Vána to war.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I expect that Valar and Maiar, particularly thoses of Aule, were needed for the business of digging out the "Melkor element", the power that Morgoth had spread out and stored in the land, which was necesarry to be done before asailling Morgoth in Angband, and which was the likely cause of Beleriand comming apart at the seams.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by Nolendil
MM had the idea that Tulkas and Orome may have gone specifically to combat the greater demons and beasts of Morgoth, respectively. I do not personally see the need for sending (say) Ulmo or Vána to war.I don't think that the powers of Ulmo were limited just to water. As I don't think that Manwe's powers weren't limited just to air. I do think he could've help if he was there (and I guess he wasn't).

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
I doubt SGH meant to exclude the Maiar, but I agree that all the Valar probably did not go. Why would Eonwe, Herald of Manwe, be the general of the armies if Manwe had come? I'll believe Tulkas or Orome, but not the others.

MM had the idea that Tulkas and Orome may have gone specifically to combat the greater demons and beasts of Morgoth, respectively. I do not personally see the need for sending (say) Ulmo or Vána to war.

What demons and beasts would that be? Was that explained?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
I expect that Valar and Maiar, particularly thoses of Aule, were needed for the business of digging out the "Melkor element", the power that Morgoth had spread out and stored in the land, which was necesarry to be done before asailling Morgoth in Angband, and which was the likely cause of Beleriand comming apart at the seams.

Could that really be dug out? I thought the whole of ME was "Morgoth´s ring".

[Lefty Scaevola]

"Melkor strain" and stored power would be concentrated in some veins where he had been more particulary concerned and weaker in in other areas. There would almost certainly very strong concetrations of it in areas they he had been the main creator and around his strongholds where he resided and worked in a fixed place for many years. Thoses near Angband would also be the easiest for him to access at need, and thus required the most cleansing. Hence Beleriand was trashed.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
"Melkor strain" and stored power would be concentrated in some veins where he had been more particulary concerned and weaker in in other areas. There would almost certainly very strong concetrations of it in areas they he had been the main creator and around his strongholds where he resided and worked in a fixed place for many years. Thoses near Angband would also be the easiest for him to access at need, and thus required the most cleansing. Hence Beleriand was trashed.

Well, it sounds plausible. (Though I always perceived Morgoth´s "strain" to be focused more on certain elements than on geographical loci.) Did Tolkien expand on this in the writings in HoME for example?

[Ñólendil]

What demons and beasts would that be? Was that explained?

By "demons" I meant the servants of Morgoth who once belonged to the Maiar, who were certainly in the War, and by "beasts" I simply meant the beastly makings of Morgoth (or Sauron), which included the Vampires, Werewolves and Dragons, and -- I think -- many other nameless, dreadful things.

Did Tolkien expand on this in the writings in HoME for example?

Yes. See Volume X, Part 1 of the History of the Silmarillion, Morgoth's Ring. His power and spirit was disseminated, not concentrated, but it is almost certainly true that the "Morgothian element" could be tapped into. I think Tolkien called it his moryo, his shadow, or something along those lines.

[Findegil]

I think, this thread is a bit of a misunderstanding.
The first question was meant for the War of Power and not for the Wra of Warth.

So my answer for the first question would be nearly all the Valar were in the War of Power. In the early drafts you se them clothed in their armor and taking wappens and in Tolkiens last ideas you here that Manwe did not expact that they could master Melkor. I think that would clearly mean that he would take all the forces he could. In addition to the Valar he would then also have brought fore all Maiar that harkend to his word.

Respectfully
Findegil

[celeb-galad]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Eonwe was in the War of Wrath, but no one else is mentioned by name. It seems likely that Orome and Tulcas were involved, but no one knows.

I doubt that Eonwë would be leading the host if the likes of Tulkas and Oromë were involved.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Eonwe is the Herald and Champion for Manwe in war, and thus acceptable to lead the host, even if Valar other Manwe are with it. His position in an aristocracy could be simimlar that that of a Lord marshal of Eangland, who was sometimes major nobility, and sometimes not, but was the Kings legate on the battlefield.

[celeb-galad]

Eonwë was the mightiest "presence" of goodness there IMO, Oromë and Tulkas would have been at least mentioned if they were there.
Plus, at one point in the battle the forces of the Valar were turned back, because of the onslaught of Ancalagon and his flight of dragons. Could the dragons, even Ancalagon the black, have done so if 2 of the VALAR fought against them? Doubtful, very doubtful.;)

[Ñólendil]

Eonwë was the mightiest "presence" of goodness there IMO, Oromë and Tulkas would have been at least mentioned if they were there.

The account Christopher Tolkien used for the Silmarillion was taken from the Book of Lost Tales, and from other bits and pieces from pre-LotR texts. Tolkien never revised it. The full account included Manwe's son, Fionwe (later known as Manwe's herald, Eonwe). There's a lot that would have been in a revised Of Eärendil and the War of Wrath, that is not in it now, I think.

[Captain Stern]

I'm sure a swarm of 100ft tall Dragons, each weighing around 70 tons, filled with the dire power of Melkor, and breathing eldritch fire, would be able to drive back any host, including one comprised of members of the Valar...

[Finmandos12]

I'm sure a swarm of 100ft tall Dragons, each weighing around 70 tons, filled with the dire power of Melkor, and breathing eldritch fire, would be able to drive back any host, including one comprised of members of the Valar...

Hardly. If Turin and Bard, men, could kill a dragon, I think that the Valar would able to do it pretty easily. They could drive back Elves, perhaps even weak Maia, but not Valar.

[Captain Stern]

But they each fought a single dragon, not a whole host of them! Bard shot Smaug from a distance in its weak spot using a magic arrow. Turin didn't meet Galurung squarely on the battlefield either. There was a lot of stealth and trickery involved. Neither encounter could hope to compare with swarms of the things charging ahead at you on a level plain (which was the situation in the War of Wrath).

[Sween]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
But they each fought a single dragon, not a whole host of them! Bard shot Smaug from a distance in its weak spot using a magic arrow. Turin didn't meet Galurung squarely on the battlefield either. There was a lot of stealth and trickery involved. Neither encounter could hope to compare with swarms of the things charging ahead at you on a level plain.

a valar could probably dispatch with a dragon with a single thought let alone stroke. Even if there were thousands of them it stil would not be that big a deal for them they were that powerful

[Captain Stern]

To add, I doubt the host sent against Angband, during the War of Wrath, was almost exclusively made up of the Elves of Aman. It does say that Feanor, during his final moments, realised that no power of the Noldor could ever hope to bring down Morgoth's stronghold. So I doubt any force of Eldar, no matter how large, could have done what the Noldor failed to do. There must have been, at least, a large force of Maiar and, perhaps, a few Valar too, for Morgoth had many corrupted maiar under his own command and who better to combat them than the Ainur? Not to mention the fact that it was required to descend into Angband, past Morgoth's most powerful guardians, then find and chain him... Who else but the Valar could have done so?

[Captain Stern]

Sween: a valar could probably dispatch with a dragon with a single thought let alone stroke. Even if there were thousands of them it stil would not be that big a deal for them they were that powerful

I think you both overestimate the martial power of the Valar and underestimate the power of the Dragons. Sauron, the most powerful Maiar, and almost a Valar himself, was crippled by Gil Galad and Elendil. Granted, they were both powerful Lords of their people, but neither held a fraction of the power of the combined might of hundreds of Dragons.... I mean, just try and picture it...

In its death throws, Ancalagon the Black toppled Thangorodrim! Even alone he might have made the Valar pause, but he was backed up with, probably, hundreds of his brothers.

[Falagar]

But they each fought a single dragon, not a whole host of them! Bard shot Smaug from a distance in its weak spot using a magic arrow. Turin didn't meet Galurung squarely on the battlefield either. There was a lot of stealth and trickery involved. Neither encounter could hope to compare with swarms of the things charging ahead at you on a level plain (which was the situation in the War of Wrath).
Picture thousands of Elves firing arrows at those dragons.
An Elvish archer should be pretty much better than a man, and they probably had magic arrows too, at least they where made in Valinor.

I think you both overestimate the martial power of the Valar and underestimate the power of the Dragons. Sauron, the most powerful Maiar, and almost a Valar himself, was crippled by Gil Galad and Elendil. Granted, they were both powerful Lords of their people, but neither held a fraction of the power of the combined might of hundreds of Dragons.... I mean, just try and picture it...
But also picture thousands of Elf Lords, in the days of their "youth"...

And if two lords of men and Elves could downthrow Sauron (the strongest of Morgoth's maiar) with a great army, certainly greater Elvish lords with a many times greater army and Manwe's herald (possibly many other Maiar too) could take down all of them.

[Andúril]

Captain Stern:
*snip*

Sauron, the most powerful Maiar(sic),

*snip*Where is it written that Sauron was the most powerful Maia?More:
In its death throws(sic), Ancalagon the Black toppled Thangorodrim! Even alone he might have made the Valar pause, but he was backed up with, probably, hundreds of his brothers.Do you remember how Ancalagon perished?

[Captain Stern]

Falagar: Picture thousands of Elves firing arrows at those dragons.

It took thousands of Elves firing arrows from horseback to drive off (notice 'drive-off', not kill) a YOUNG Glaurung with underdeveloped natural armour. And he was alone.

Falagar: An Elvish archer should be pretty much better than a man, and they probably had magic arrows too, at least they where made in Valinor.

I admit that I haven't read the Hobbit in its entirety, so I would appreciate it if anyone who has could illuminate me on the Smaug - Bard encounter?

From what I understand, the arrow Bard fired at Smaug was an extremely rare and powerful family heirloom, an heirloom of a noble family of men no less (correct me if I'm wrong). I doubt, having read the Silmarillion, that such arrows were commonplace amongst rank and file elf soldiery. They would have been reserved for Elf Lords, and only some at that.


Falagar: But also picture thousands of Elf Lords, in the days of their "youth"...

There were certainly not 'thousands' of Elf Lords. There were probably not many more than 15-20 in each of the 3 Elven 'tribes', all of them varying in power. None of the Teleri took part in the War of Wrath, save for lending the others ships, and the Noldor were not as populous as they had once been, So you can reduce that number even further. Only the Vanyar can be assumed to be at full strength, and their lords were not 'certainly greater Elvish lords'. The Noldor were always reckoned to be the greatest people...

But all this is beating about the bush. We know that the Dragons were powerful enough to drive the hosts of the Valar back. It says so in the story.


Anduril: Where is it written that Sauron was the most powerful Maia?

Well it says in 'Of the Enemies', in the Silmarillion, that he was the most powerful of Morgoths maiar. Perhaps I was wrong to suggest he was the most powerful of them all, but who do you suggest was more powerful? It does say too that the line between the more powerful maiar and the weaker Valar was very fine (If only I could find the passage...)

Anduril: Do you remember how Ancalagon perished?

He was slain by Earendil wearing a silmaril on his brow - an item that affected the fates of all of Arda. He, too, was accompanied 'by all the birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain'. He was also in a super ship :p, created by the Valar, of which Ancalagon could be seen as the parody of. I would also argue that the text suggests that the Valar had imbued both Vingilot and Earendil with a measure of their power, but this is mere speculation on my part.

[Falagar]

There were certainly not 'thousands' of Elf Lords. There were probably not many more than 15-20 in each of the 3 Elven 'tribes', all of them varying in power. None of the Teleri took part in the War of Wrath, save for lending the others ships, and the Noldor were not as populous as they had once been, So you can reduce that number even further. Only the Vanyar can be assumed to be at full strength, and their lords were not 'certainly greater Elvish lords'. The Noldor were always reckoned to be the greatest people...
Sorry for that, I rewrote it a couple of times, it should read "thousands of Elves", not "thousands of Elf Lords"

[Andúril]

Captain Stern:
*snip*

Perhaps I was wrong to suggest he was the most powerful of them all, but who do you suggest was more powerful?

*snip*The first on my list would be Eonwe, but I do not believe the Silmarillian lends support to this speculation. If other texts do (or if they indicate the negative) I wouldn't know, as I have not read them.

[Sween]

why does everyone asume that sauron is the strongest maiar that there was?

Is the strongest worrior allways the one thats at the battle or can it be the man ploughing the feilds at home is the most intelegent the man making the descisions or writeing poetry?

Sauron is only presumed the greatest because his deeds are deemed great but how great were his deads sure he was a master of craft and lore of aule which he used in his making of the rings and bar dur. But sauron as a tactician tended to work through servents as all good leaders do so his power is hard to judge.

As for Eonwe i suspect that from time to time the valar can give certain responabilitys to an individual (these probably been granted down from eru himself) Eonwe was probably given the responability to push Morgoth beyond the rhelm of the world in the same way gandalf the white had the power to take away saurmans powers in lord of the rings

[BeardofPants]

Sauron didn't have the limitations placed upon him that were placed on the five emmisaries, which is probably why he is always assumed to be the strongest. And Gandalf *did* say something to the effect that White is strong, but Black is stronger yet. [gross paraphrase]

[Sween]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Sauron didn't have the limitations placed upon him that were placed on the five emmisaries, which is probably why he is always assumed to be the strongest. And Gandalf *did* say something to the effect that White is strong, but Black is stronger yet. [gross paraphrase]

yes but isnt most of sauron strength in his servents the nazgul and all the legions of men and orcs at his comand that what in himself?

[Andúril]

BoP:
Sauron didn't have the limitations placed upon him that were placed on the five emmisaries, which is probably why he is always assumed to be the strongest. And Gandalf *did* say something to the effect that White is strong, but Black is stronger yet. [gross paraphrase]Indeed throughout the LotR Gandalf makes mention of Sauron's superiority. However, when the underlying context of these assertions is taken into account (i.e. Gandalf speaking as one of the Istari), we end up without an indication of Gandalf's native power.

Just an unscholarly opinion. :)

[BeardofPants]

That is true. I guess we have to take Gandalf's modesty into account! Afterall, he of all the istari was given the Red Ring.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sween
yes but isnt most of sauron strength in his servents the nazgul and all the legions of men and orcs at his comand that what in himself?

Nearly all the texts imply that they are ONLY talking about their internal power, rather than the troops available at hand. Morgoth was probably one of the most powerful of the Valar, and the same is said to be true of Sauron, out of all the maiar. IIRC, this is mentioned in Letters. Tolkien, if I remember correctly, attributes this directly to their lack of limitations. However, it is without a doubt, that it would have better enabled Sauron's cause to have had all those troops under his dominion.

Also, some theorise that Sauron was capitalising on the "magic" that Morgoth instilled into the Land. This would undoubtedly give Sauron an advantage over the other maiar.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Andúril
Where is it written that Sauron was the most powerful Maia?Do you remember how Ancalagon perished?

I don't think it is written anywhere specifically who the most powerful Maia is...Sauron was in the beginning a Maia of Aule untill Melkor seduced him...Melkor gave to Sauron alot of his own power however....it my opinion I think that Eonwe is of equal power with Sauron since he is Manwe the King of Arda's Maia

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Also, some theorise that Sauron was capitalising on the "magic" that Morgoth instilled into the Land. This would undoubtedly give Sauron an advantage over the other maiar.
You're right. It's mentioned explicitly a couple of times (can't remember where - sorry) that the will of Morgoth survived his casting out into the void and remained latent in Middle Earth. Each evil creature, whether orc or balrog, would bring some of their own innate power, but would also be tuned in to Morgoth's will. Sauron was activating and directing it.

[Arien the Maia]

Does anyone know why none of the valar or maiar other than Melian had any children. Were they not able to because they naturally didn't have a physical form?

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Does anyone know why none of the valar or maiar other than Melian had any children. Were they not able to because they naturally didn't have a physical form?
I just assumed they never felt the need to have children. And they didn't have much time, with that meddling Melkor and Sauron. :)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I just assumed they never felt the need to have children. And they didn't have much time, with that meddling Melkor and Sauron. :)

Yeah I guess that would leave them a bit preoccupied:D

[Captain Stern]

I read the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales the other day for the first time, and came upon the passage (which I've read here on Entmoot in the past) which describes a council held by the Valar, deciding who among their servants should go to Middle Earth and attempt to put an end to Sauron's tyranny.

The following quote from that passage says a lot about the very real gulf in power between Gandalf (Olorin) and Sauron:

Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle Earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should go...

[Andúril]

Captain Stern:
*snip*

The following quote from that passage says a lot about the very real gulf in power between Gandalf (Olorin) and Sauron:

*snip*I agree. Whereas other passages speak from an Istari context, this one clearly indicates Olorin's thoughts on the matter from an "unrestricted" perspective. And being the wisest of the Maiar, we can justifiably infer that he was correct in his judgement and that his fear was indeed warranted.

[Elvellon]

A question. What about Olorin’s power after the War of the Ring? How that may have affected his inner power?