Where the Númenóreans destined to perish?

[Maedhros]

Even thought with all the gifts that the Valar and Eldar gave the Númenóreans, were they destined to be trapped by jealousy towards them. Couldn't they have saved their city and land. Was this their destiny?
From the Published Silmarillion:
Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Númenóreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased. For though the Valar had rewarded the Dúnedain with long life, they could not take from them the weariness of the world that comes at last, and they died, even their kings of the seed of Eärendil; and the span of their lives was brief in the eyes of the Eldar. Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.
And this was before Sauron had come to Númenor.

[Nibs]

But not all felt that way, I'll point out. I think of it very much like Noah and the ark, because one could say similar things... "why save only two of each animal? The rest, which are many will perish in the flood. They're not to blame." And the answer, of course, is: there is no answer. What happened, happened, I suppose.

[Lief Erikson]

You're asking about Silmarillion predestination basically, correct? If so, there is a thread already devoted to discussing this topic, called "Ilúvatar created Melkor evil?"

I don't think they were predestined to be destroyed, because they had free choice. And they chose the path of evil, and as a consequence were punished for their sin. Are you asking about predestination, or not?

[Arathorn]

Perhaps a lot of side-switching went on within the Numenorian people and those that decided to keep faith with the Valar were spared and came to be with those who ruled western middle-earth.

BTW, aren't there Black Numenorians who also made it to M-E? I think 3 of their kings became Nazgul. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I only got this from the Tolkien Illustrated Enyclopedia.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Arathorn
BTW, aren't there Black Numenorians who also made it to M-E? I think 3 of their kings became Nazgul. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I only got this from the Tolkien Illustrated Enyclopedia.
I thought a lot of Numenoreans went to Middle-Earth, but most mixed with the "lesser" men. I'm not sure about your question, but I wouldn't doubt it.

[Maedhros]

You're asking about Silmarillion predestination basically, correct?
No.
Are you asking about predestination, or not?
No. I'm asking about human nature. You have the Númenóreans who had basically everything that a civilization of Men ever had, and still they ended up being destroyed. I wonder if that is how Tolkien view humans, I wonder if we are destined for failure in his eyes.

[Wayfarer]

I don't think that the numenoreans suffered from anything that wasn't common to man. almost everybody fears death, and only a few enlightened souls ever willingly give up their lives. The numenoreans simply fell back from the wisdom they had achieved to the foolishness of the shadow-men.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
No. I'm asking about human nature. You have the Númenóreans who had basically everything that a civilization of Men ever had, and still they ended up being destroyed. I wonder if that is how Tolkien view humans, I wonder if we are destined for failure in his eyes. This made me think of a passage from Letters, #338:
...a tale supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldarion about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. Then I of course discovered that the King's Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron; but that almost certainly a restlessness would appear about then, owing to the (it seems) inevitable boredom of Men with the good: there would be secret societies practising dark cults, and 'orc-cults' among adolescents.

[Lollypopgurl]

Well, they had everything they could possibly want. The only thing they are lacking is immortality. And if Elros had just chosen to be immortal, they would have it.

Maybe the Númenóreans had it too good.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lollypopgurl
Well, they had everything they could possibly want. The only thing they are lacking is immortality. And if Elros had just chosen to be immortal, they would have it.

Maybe the Númenóreans had it too good. If Elros had chosen to be an Elf then there would have been none of it. He would have then been an Elf, like Elrond.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Arathorn
.BTW, aren't there Black Numenorians who also made it to M-E?
Lot of Westerneese of faithful, Kings Men (Black), and prior to that schism went to ME. They had colonies up and down the littorial, including many south of the LoTR map (Numenor was fairly far south, southwest of Mordor). The center for the Kings men was Umbar. The other southerly colonies were near to Numenor and thus more likley dominated by Kings men. The faithful headed mostly to the northerly colonies to be farther from the king AND closer to the elvish kingdoms.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Since reading in HoME about mens downfall (to Melkor) myth of their immortality being taken from them or their mortal lifetime shortened, with Finrod then surmising the the later may have actually occured, I have begun to supect that the Westernesse longevity was not so much as a new gift (particularly since the Valar seem limited in their ability to make fundemental changes in such) but a RESTORATION of mans original lifespan which had been decreased in the past when they worshiped Melkor.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Since reading in HoME about mens downfall (to Melkor) myth of their immortality being taken from them or their mortal lifetime shortened, with Finrod then surmising the the later may have actually occured, I have begun to supect that the Westernesse longevity was not so much as a new gift (particularly since the Valar seem limited in their ability to make fundemental changes in such) but a RESTORATION of mans original lifespan which had been decreased in the past when they worshiped Melkor. Ahhh! I take it you are refering to the Athrabeth. Why do you think in the Silmarillion that it says "The years of the Edain were lengthened after their coming into Beleriand?"

[Lefty Scaevola]

In some part of HoME JRRT worked on the idea that Elven and Human boied are same at conception or birth, and that the physical differences (like lifetime) between them are made by the differences in the elvish and human spirits melded to them. He goes on to say that it are very hard to distinquish between Elven and Human infants and toddlers, but that the diferences become more visable as the grow up. This would explain the easy fertility in the mixed couples; the GENEs are the same species, but the spirit soul is different. This leads me into to a theory of the fading lifetime of the Westernesse, that as their spirits become more corrupt and oriented to Morgoth, with debased spirits, the more debased their physical body becomes.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Ahhh! I take it you are refering to the Athrabeth. Why do you think in the Silmarillion that it says "The years of the Edain were lengthened after their coming into Beleriand?" The Edain were the faithful ones, weren't they, those of Men who eventually turned from Melkor and fled from him, westwards into Beleriand, and their lenghtened lifespan was a reward.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
The Edain were the faithful ones, weren't they, those of Men who eventually turned from Melkor and fled from him, westwards into Beleriand, and their lenghtened lifespan was a reward. Could it also have been that the further west you went, the more your lifespan increased? Also, what about their exposure to the Eldar and living among them and their lifestyle?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Could it also have been that the further west you went, the more your lifespan increased?

The phenomenon of the West attaining importance in Tolkien's work is interesting, because, as we know, Numeanore was based slightly on Egyptian culture. Now in the Dynastic Periods of Egypt, the West was very much an important aspect of the Egyptian Cult of the Dead. I understand that this was also the case for some Meso-American cultures as well. Sorta interesting how Tolkien appears to have taken the opposite, in that the West seems to home those that are long-lived or immortal. The west isn't usually used to represent longevity (the sun setting, and all.)

[/end ramble]

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
The phenomenon of the West attaining importance in Tolkien's work is interesting, because, as we know, Numeanore was based slightly on Egyptian culture. Now in the Dynastic Periods of Egypt, the West was very much an important aspect of the Egyptian Cult of the Dead. I understand that this was also the case for some Meso-American cultures as well. Sorta interesting how Tolkien appears to have taken the opposite, in that the West seems to home those that are long-lived or immortal. The west isn't usually used to represent longevity (the sun setting, and all.)

[/end ramble] Very interesting BoP.

[BeardofPants]

Do I get a pat on the head with that? ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Do I get a pat on the head with that? ;) Sure, How hard would you like it to be? Let me find my Grond. It is laying around here somewhere.:D

[Wayfarer]

Could it also have been that the further west you went, the more your lifespan increased? Also, what about their exposure to the Eldar and living among them and their lifestyle?

The text specifically refutes that notion.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The text specifically refutes that notion. Oh? Can you give me some documentation, a quote please?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Some bit in HoME does says that if men lived in Aman they might likely be shorter lived rather than longer, but the experience or enviroment is unsuitable for their spirit.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Some bit in HoME does says that if men lived in Aman they might likely be shorter lived rather than longer, but the experience or enviroment is unsuitable for their spirit. Yes, but I was asking about Men moving further West in Beleriand. I am not saying that their lifespan increased as they moved west. I am asking if that is a possibility in Beleriand and that they lived among the Eldar. Wayfarer says that the text refutes that and that's fine. I would like to know what the text says about that. I was hoping he would post it so that I could be lazy and not have to look for it, but I guess I will.:p

[Rían]

There's that fascinating little bit in (yes, you guessed it :D) Morgoth's Ring about what would happen to men if they went to live in Aman. It's in Myths Transformed, under the section "Aman and Mortal Men". Basically how their physical lives would be extended because of the influence of Aman, but it would be a horrible thing, because their spirits were not meant to have a body like that. Here's a quick quote: Very soon then the fëa [spirit] and hröa [body] of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigor and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda....
It goes on for a bit more, and it's really quite interesting.

[Wayfarer]

Can you give me some documentation, a quote please?

I think that it would be amusing at this point to direct you to the Akallabeth.

The reason that the Numenoreans attacked valinor was that they believed that posessing the land would somehow make them immortal. The valar tell them that living in valinor would not, in fact, make them immortal, and that the land of valinor actually had no special properties in and of itself.

But since your asking about living longer in beleriand, there really aren't any textual sources regarding that. I find no reason to believe that living among the elves provides any benefit other than those which are outlined. rest from ones cares, good food and drink, plenty of rest, and affordable medical and dental care- those are all things which tend to make people live longer. But aside from that, I don't see anything the elves provide which would drastically increase the length of life for humans.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
It's in Myths Transformed, under the section "Aman and Mortal Men".

Yep, I see find that part now, as well as recalling some ealier on line JRRT speculation in another part, that men might persih faster there like a moth too close to a flame (the moth/flame motif MIGHT put it in time near the period he wrote the Andreth, which had similar motifs), The myths transformed is, however, among his last writings and thoughs.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I was just wondering what was behind those two little paragraphs in the Sil that says: The years of the Edain were lengthened, according to the reckoning of Men, after their coming to Beleriand; but at last Beor the Old died when he had lived three and ninety years, for four and forty of which he had served King Felagund. And when he lay dead of no wound or grief, but stricken by age, the Eldar saw for the first time the swift waning of the life of Men, and the death of weariness which they knew not in themselves; and they grieved greatly for the loss of their friends. But Beor at the last had relinquished his life willingly and passed in peace, and the Eldar wondered much at the strange fate of Men, for in all their lore there was no account of it and its end was hidden from them.

So the Edain of old learned swiftly of the Eldar all such art and knowledge as they could receive, and their sons increased in wisdom and skill, until they far surpassed all others of Mankind, who dwelt still east of the mountains and had not seen the Eldar, nor looked upon the faces that had beheld the Light of Valinor.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
The phenomenon of the West attaining importance in Tolkien's work is interesting, because, as we know, Numeanore was based slightly on Egyptian culture. Now in the Dynastic Periods of Egypt, the West was very much an important aspect of the Egyptian Cult of the Dead. I understand that this was also the case for some Meso-American cultures as well. Sorta interesting how Tolkien appears to have taken the opposite, in that the West seems to home those that are long-lived or immortal. The west isn't usually used to represent longevity (the sun setting, and all.)

[/end ramble]


Different mythologies had their influence here. Do not forget that Tir Na Nog (the Celtic land of the Ever Young), and Avalon itself was in the West. (Remember Avallone?)

And it was also was a way by witch Tolkien gave a meaning to the coming to the west of the Saxon tribes in the old mythology of the Lost Tales. Now in his mithiology they were driven by a purpose nobler that simply finding a suitable land to settle; they searched for the West.

The Newer mythology inherited the ancient and refined it, and left the place of the Blessed Land unchanged.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Different mythologies had their influence here. Do not forget that Tir Na Nog (the Celtic land of the Ever Young), and Avalon itself was in the West. (Remember Avallone?)


Yep, and if memory serves one of the myths of Ireland is the invasion of a Ireland by a people from Nu Breasil, a land over the sea from the west:) (modern Brazils named after this legend).

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Coney
Yep, and if memory serves one of the myths of Ireland is the invasion of a Ireland by a people from Nu Breasil, a land over the sea from the west:) (modern Brazils named after this legend).

I see you have an interest in Celtic things, as I do :)

I’m aware of the association, of the name Brazil with the mythic land of “I Brazil� but I must say I’ve always considered that hypothesis unlikely, (albeit a interesting one).

As you may know, that wasn’t the original official name of the country (It was called then Terra de Vera Cruz, meaning Land of the True Cross).

So how it came to be known as Brazil?
The name seems to be associated with that of a specific tree of Brazil known as “Pau Brazil,� meaning in Old Portuguese, “fire-coloured wood.�
In the early times of colonization, the Pau Brazil had quite an economic relevance, so that the caravelas and naus (old Portuguese sailing ships) would go there specifically to load that wood and bring it home. Mariners would say “Ir ao Brazil,� meaning they were going to Vera Cruz to load wood, but the phrase is quite ambivalent, and can also be understood as going to the land of Brazil. In time, the word Brazil became associated with the land.

Sorry for the ramble, but history is a passion of mine:)

[Maedhros]

I was just wondering what was behind those two little paragraphs in the Sil that says:
Perhaps the words of Finrod my clarify things. From Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
'That I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hröar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only maybe Aman before he came there. For know, it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years.
'And likewise with the hröar of Men, they are weaker than they should be. Thus it comes to pass that here in the West, to which of old his power scarcely extended, they have more health, as you say.'
With Men coming to Beleriand, away from the influence of Melkor, their hröar would be stronger than if they would be closer to him.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
With Men coming to Beleriand, away from the influence of Melkor, their hröar would be stronger than if they would be closer to him. But Melkor is there already, isn't he, in Beleriand, when Men arrives?

In "Myths transformed" it is said that Melkor in the beginning of days put forth his power into the physical earth and thus marred it. It could be, perhaps, that Melkor poured the greatest part of his dark power into the earth in the lands east of Ered Luin, so that Men and Elves and other living creatures would be more affected there. Hence the Edain would benefit from fleeing westwards.

[Artanis]

There is also a possibility that the Edain were rewarded for turning away from the influence of Melkor. Melkor made Men fear death, which should not be feared as it was a gift to them. In the quote given by SGH, Beor gives up his life willingly when his time has come, and do no longer fear death. It seems then as if Men do not try to avoid death, which is their natural fate, death is actually postponed. We see the opposite process among the Numenoreans, they did not die willingly, but clinged to life, and the result was shorter lifespan.

[markedel]

But Tolkien isn't all negative towards men. Note in ROTK Gimli and Legolas discuss Minas Tirith and Legolas notes that men's glory may wane, but they can wax again-elves and dwarves are doomed to vanish from the world.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

No. I'm asking about human nature. You have the Númenóreans who had basically everything that a civilization of Men ever had, and still they ended up being destroyed. I wonder if that is how Tolkien view humans, I wonder if we are destined for failure in his eyes.But they weren't destroyed: that's the whole point about the escape of Elendil and a few others of the faithful from the ruin of Numenor.

And about Aragorn, eventually. Perhaps JRRT viewed humans as a battleground in which there are many casualties but always resurging hope due to the human spirit that will not give up -- "the old that is good does not perish, deep roots are not reached by the frost" (a paraphrase, as the books aren't handy).

It takes some time and reflection to connect Bilbo's poem for Aragorn with The Akallabeth, but the connection, I believe, is there, signified perhaps by how Aragorn was known in Rivendell: Dunadan, or Numenorean. (And in the external story, a rather neat linkage between The Akallabeth, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings.)

Interestingly, Ar-Pharazon and those Numenoreans who landed on Aman with him weren't destroyed, either, though their fate was far worse than that of the Faithful who escaped the Downfall but had to labor hard in Middle-earth. The rebellious Numenoreans who had broken the ban were buried in the Caves of the Forgotten, to stay there until the Last Battle: they got a taste of immortality, that is, and I bet they would really understand the meaning of the gift of Iluvatar by the time they would be released. So, they didn't fail, either: just got taught a very hard lesson.