The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

[Maedhros]

1. Why was Melkor (being the most powerful of the Ainur), the one who most wanted to do things by his own thought?
But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own
Is it a reality in the Silmarillion that the most powerful beings are flawed in a way that they tend to curve to evil?
2. Is the Universe Predefined?
Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
3. Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?
4. Where the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best?
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.
5. What made some Ainur more entralled to the idea of going to Arda and so to join themselves with the fate of the world?
And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme,
6. Why was Ulmo the one most instructed by Music by Ilúvatar? Does this has in fact something to do with the way he acts as the story goes on?
7. Is this but a presage to all of us that Arda remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred?
And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'
8. Is it better to stay with Ilúvatar or go to Arda?
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs.
9. Melkor becomes a Rebel. Is there any correlation to the way the Silmarillion threats other rebels too?
And there was strife between Melkor and the other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what he would; but he did not put the desire of the Kingdom of Arda from his heart.

[Artanis]

Ah, so many questions at once. Are we supposed to discuss all these topics simultaneously? I'll start at the top then, and continue downwards:

1. I've tried to give an answer to this in the "Iluvatar made Melkor evil" thread. I think Melkor, because of his great power and knowledge, considered himself almost as powerful as Iluvatar, and wanted to be like him, and to create things of his own. He went to seek the Imperishable Flame, but when he couldn't find it, he instead tried to alter the music of the Ainur, perhaps to try out his own power. The others of the Ainur may also have had the desire to create, but they did not try it, because it was clear their power wasn't great enough.

This goes for Melkor. His fate was to desire a power he never could have, but still one that lay just outside his reach. I don't think powerful beings are generally more flawed than others, but I do think they are subject to greater temptations.

2. This topic have been discussed in length in the "Iluvatar made Melkor evil" thread. I tend to think that free will truly exist, at least for Men, with the implication that the Universe is not predestined (but I know not all of you agree of the logic here).
Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else;
But as MasterMothra pointed out, it's all to easy to project one's beliefs from this real world onto Ea, and I confess that I'm probably guilty of doing just that.

3. Well, that depends on what is considered evil. Melkor tried to be a creator like Iluvatar. Is that a fall? My moral code says no, because I don't think Melkor had evil purposes then, but still it may be Iluvatar's moral code says yes. According to my moral code, the fall began with the feeling of shame, and the anger that followed. But then, my moral code is not valid within Ea.

TBC

[markedel]

I think Melkor was supposed to be the prime mover of the sub-creative element, but that made him want to create-and that's a sin.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Ah, so many questions at once. Are we supposed to discuss all these topics simultaneously? Hello Artanis. I was hoping that you and Rian would be active participants in this project. Right now we will only be discussing the Ainulindale. Whenever Maedhros is ready I will post one more sticky to assign chapters to volunteers, then we will spend three weeks discussing each chapter one at a time. All volunteers will be responsible for researching thier chapter and posting the intro thread when the time comes. Should be fun for all.:)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Melkor was so intent upon inflating his part in the music, that he heeded little the other parts. Thus he had little foresight of events in EA that he did not himself create. Thus while other like Lorien, Mandos, Manwe, and even Maiar like Melian, had much power of prophacy, most of it came a a suprise to Melkor. World conquerors should sing less and listen more.

[Getchan]

The Ainur who left Iluvatar fell in love with the vision of the world, and the Children of Iluvatar. Although both didn't turn out like they thought they would. It's like when people decide to have kids. They love the idea of it, and they enjoy them when they're young. But as they grow older, things become more difficult and stressful. Some kids are good and some are rebels. But the parents don't second guess their decision to have kids-they love them no matter what. Suckers.:p

[Rían]

Hello everyone - what a great idea this is! And SGH - you want me to participate?? You know how wordy I get! :D :D

Actually, I'll make my first post very brief. As Artanis said, we discussed a lot over in the Did Ilúvatar make Melkor Evil thread - I'd recommend that you people take a quick scan over there. Some very interesting thoughts about free will and predestination and responsibility for the presence, or even the possibility, of evil.

Lefty - I really like your thought - yes, often the downfall of evil people is that they are so intently focused on themselves. That was definitely part of Sauron's downfall - he, at first, only thought of what HE would do if he found the ring and was in Aragorn's position. He didn't seem to even think that they might try to destroy it at first; he thought they would use it to fight against him. Because of that error in judgement, the fellowship had some extra time that was sorely needed.

[Artanis]

Continued from my first post:

4. I've always regarded the Children as a response to Melkor's discord. Without the discord the music would have been solely good.But now Iluvatar sat ans hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws.

5. I think those of the Ainur who had contributed most to the music, and therefore had the greatest part in the making of Arda, were also most eager to descent into it.

6. I'm not sure what you're getting at here Maedhros. The Valar were given different skills, and took special interest in different parts of the world.

7. Arda remade is imo definately going to be better than Arda unmarred. I base this upon the Athrabeth from Morgoth's Ring, and from the following quote from the Ainulindale: Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

8. Would it have been better for the Valar to stay with Iluvatar? No, I don't think so. Though from your quote the fate of the Valar and tha Maiar at the end of the world is not clear, I think they will eventually take part in the making of Arda remade.

9. Again I'm not sure about your question. Who should we consider as rebellions in the Sil?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Melkor was so intent upon inflating his part in the music, that he heeded little the other parts. Thus he had little foresight of events in EA that he did not himself create. Thus while other like Lorien, Mandos, Manwe, and even Maiar like Melian, had much power of prophacy, most of it came a a suprise to Melkor. World conquerors should sing less and listen more. That should be a lesson to all of us, I think. :)

Melkor also spent much time away from the other Ainur, when he was out in the Void seeking the Imperishable Flame. Therefore he didn't gain much understanding of his brethren, and didn't learn how to be in harmony with them.

[Maedhros]

I've always regarded the Children as a response to Melkor's discord. Without the discord the music would have been solely good.
It is an interesting point that you make. Does this imply that without Melkor's discord we would have no Chilren of Ilúvatar? Or rather that they would have been created in another fashion.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here Maedhros. The Valar were given different skills, and took special interest in different parts of the world.

It just that I find interesting that Ulmo appers to be acting against the Valar in the Silmarillion, and he has the peculiarity of being the one most instructed in Music by Ilúvatar.
Again I'm not sure about your question. Who should we consider as rebellions in the Sil?
I consider rebels those who go against the established authority. Ex: Melkor go against Ilúvatar, Fëanor against the Valar, etc. Tolkien seems harsh on his treatment of rebels, except those of Númenor who rebelled against Ar-Pharazôn.

Another interesting question is:
Why Music was used for the creation of the World?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Does this imply that without Melkor's discord we would have no Chilren of Ilúvatar? Or rather that they would have been created in another fashion. I think there would have been neither Elves nor Men, and not any Dwarves. Perhaps there wouldn't have been any Ea at all, only as a vision given by Ilúvatar to the Ainur. But this is mere speculations.
It just that I find interesting that Ulmo appers to be acting against the Valar in the Silmarillion, and he has the peculiarity of being the one most instructed in Music by Ilúvatar.Was Ulmo really acting against the Valar, or was he just acting differently from them?

I don't know why he was most instructed in music. But it is said that he never lived in Valinor, but stayed in the waters of ME, and the music in the water never ceased to be, not even under Morgoth's darkness. Also the Teleri came to learn much about music from him.
Tolkien seems harsh on his treatment of rebels, except those of Númenor who rebelled against Ar-Pharazôn. I would say those who openly and consciously rebel against the highest authority, that is Ilúvatar himself, receives a harse treatment. But by this definition of a 'rebel' there are not many true rebels; Melkor, Feanor, and Ar-Pharazôn.

Another interesting question is:
Why Music was used for the creation of the World? That is, I think, a question only Ilúvatar knows the answer to. :) But I'd be happy to hear what people think is the answer.

[Eldanuumea]

SGH just clued me in to this enormous undertaking.....this is my first glance at this thread, and I am overwhelmed!
I will need to print it out and do some "homework" before really jumping in.....but I wanted to get my feet wet!
This is a most ambitious undertaking, and I look forward to going deeper in to the Sil.

[MasterMothra]

Originally posted by Artanis
That should be a lesson to all of us, I think. :)

Melkor also spent much time away from the other Ainur, when he was out in the Void seeking the Imperishable Flame. Therefore he didn't gain much understanding of his brethren, and didn't learn how to be in harmony with them.


why should melkor try to understand his brethern, they were beneath him and inferior? he was the mightiest among them and was given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

its better to burn out.... than to fade away. :D

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why should melkor try to understand his brethern, they were beneath him and inferior? he was the mightiest among them and was given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

its better to burn out.... than to fade away. :D

Balderdash. I just wrote a response to that, but my computer was generous enough to delete it all for me.

Anyway, the basic thing I was going to say was in putting together some of the posts that other people in this thread have already sent. Better connecting to your brethren is simply the right thing to do, and it's arrogance to not connect yourself with them. Even if Melkor was the most powerful, there were things that he didn't understand. Manwe was closest to the heart of Ilúvatar and Ulmo was best instructed in the music. Others had better gifts of prophesy and other things, but it is wrong to assume that because in your particular field you're better than all the others are in their different fields, what they know isn't worth becoming acquainted with.


Melkor becomes a Rebel. Is there any correlation to the way the Silmarillion threats other rebels too?


This is one of the few other questions here that I can give an opinion on, for some of the others to me seem to be very difficult to answer (although maybe I just haven't studied the Silmarillion enough ;)).

I believe in my last post on the "Did Ilúvatar make Melkor evil?" thread, I pretty well established that Ilúvatar is good. Going on that assumption (You're free to quote and disagree with that post I'm referring to), then it is the bad rebel that will be punished, and not the bad. Whether someone is a rebel or not is immaterial, but whether they are on the side of good or evil is the point. Redemption is possible too, though.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why should melkor try to understand his brethern, they were beneath him and inferior? he was the mightiest among them and was given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. That's true. But I think that even he needed to listen to his brethren to gain a deeper understanding of their thoughts.
But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of
Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unisoon and harmony.

[MasterMothra]

i think of eru more as a force of nature. good and bad are labels we tend to place on things so that we may classify them. so theres my theory. lets face it, melkor is the opposite of what the other valar represent, and something that most tend to dislike. so what? he's a necessary part of a wonderful story, and he is necessary. he's a rebel against the establishment, he does things the way he wants. thats what i like about him. he's supposed to be arrogant, he's supposed to dismiss the importance of the other valar, reject their pitifull existence that requires them to do what they are told. he makes a good story better. i guess thats why eru sent him to arda in the first place. think about it. if you were eru and melkor pulled the crap he did before the world was made, would you send him there? someone that would have a say in how the world was shaped? i dont think eru was that much of a chump, he knew what he was doing by allowing melkor to help shape arda.

i am finished

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why should melkor try to understand his brethern, they were beneath him and inferior? IMO, the Valar were made to work in unison with one another to shape Arda in the preparation of the coming of the Children of Iluvatar. By Melkor rejecting to be in unison with his brethren and by squandering his strength and gifts given to him by Iluvatar he forever changed the intent of the creation and marred it.

he's a rebel against the establishment, he does things the way he wants. thats what i like about him. he's supposed to be arrogant, he's supposed to dismiss the importance of the other valar, reject their pitifull existence that requires them to do what they are told.But his rebellion was unproductive to the intent of Iluvatar.

[MasterMothra]

But his rebellion was unproductive to the intent of Iluvatar. [/B][/QUOTE]

it only appeared to be unproductive. what morgoth did or did not do was all for the greater will of eru. morgoth and sauron may have thought what they did was counter-productive, but in the end they were both just instruments of eru.

"for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

thats a good passage.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
IMO, the Valar were made to work in unison with one another to shape Arda in the preparation of the coming of the Children of Iluvatar. By Melkor rejecting to be in unison with his brethren and by squandering his strength and gifts given to him by Iluvatar he forever changed the intent of the creation and marred it.


Yes, that's why his is a discordant note in Ilúvatar's song.

And MasterMothra, would you please reveal to me the quote that says Ilúvatar sent Melkor to Middle Earth? Permitting and sending are two very different things, but that gets into the whole discussion of predestination, and that's discussed in the "Did Ilúvatar make Melkor evil?" thread.


"for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

That simply demonstrates that Ilúvatar can turn evil to good. If he is all powerful, then it makes a lot of sense that he can do that.

[MasterMothra]

sorry, mr leif garret, i didnt know syntax was so important, my apologies. so morgoth was "allowed" to enter arda. my argument still stands: why did eru allow a rebelious being in a place where he could negatively affect the process? was it a surprise to any that melkor would rebel in arda? he rebeled to the face of eru, what makes you think he wouldnt rebel when he had no supervision? personnally i dont think that eru, an omnipotent god, was that naive.

now lets take a look at the whole quote:

"and thou, melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

that quote, to me, means just what it says. no metaphors, no hidden meanings, just straightforward reading.

maybe you can tell me what this quote means, since i am obviously incapable of doing it myself.


" and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that i set before you, all those things which it may "seem" that he himself devised or added. "

thank you in advance:)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by
my argument still stands: why did eru allow a rebelious being in a place where he could negatively affect the process? was it a surprise to any that melkor would rebel in arda? he rebeled to the face of eru, what makes you think he wouldnt rebel when he had no supervision? personnally i dont think that eru, an omnipotent god, was that naive.

I don't think that Ilúvatar, an omnipotent god, was that naive either. He knew what was going to happen. However, he was powerful enough to turn all that Morgoth did on his own into good, and he was generous enough not to force Morgoth into line with his own plans. To do that would have been to destroy free will. All of his creations, from the greatest to the smallest had the ability to rebel or turn to evil. Feanor and the Noldor are examples from the elves, the men have more examples than anyone, but oddly enough none come to mind just now, Sauron and the Balrogs are examples from the Maiar, Melkor from the Valar . . . all of Ilúvatar's creatures have the gift of free will, and how they use it is up to them.

But they cannot ruin Ilúvatar's plans, and all of their schemes are to nothing. Ilúvatar allowed Melkor to go to Arda, but what does that show? Simply his respect for free will, and the fact that he has in mind a greater scheme, about which Melkor hasn't any idea. Preventing all evil would have been to demolish free will, and that wasn't Ilúvatar's intention. Free will was what he wanted for his creatures, and that was a great and good gift. If they didn't have free will, then that would remove responsibility and justice. Removing any of these things would create puppets in a happy and joyful universe, enjoy bliss and some knowledge of goodness.

Not the kind of world Ilúvatar had in mind at all. His goal is righteous, but not everyone uses their free will to do good.

Because Ilúvatar can make the best from all events, good or bad, doesn't mean that he created the bad and can use only bad events. On the contrary, he wants good events, but if the enemy choose to do bad, then he will punish them and use what they did.

[MasterMothra]

those are all very good points and are all well taken. they may very well be the grand scheme of things, i dont know. the key word for me in the previous post was "seem".

i may not agree with your assumptions, but respect them nonethess.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
sorry, mr leif garret, i didnt know syntax was so important, my apologies.

Syntax?? syntax?? "allow" and "sent" are two TOTALLY different words, as Lief pointed out. There is a huge difference between the two.

maybe you can tell me what this quote means, since i am obviously incapable of doing it myself.

Now, now, MasterMothra, I know something about you that these people don't, and I'm gonna tell if you don't restrain your language a little bit! :D I know you like to make sure this isn't just a happy little "let's talk about the pretty elves" discussion, and I don't think it has been at all - these are very knowledgeable (rats, is that spellled right?) people here. Would you please, however, keep things a little more polite, and we'll all enjoy the discussion more. Thanks :D

[Rían]

As far as the music, I really don't know, but like Artanis, I'd like to hear people's ideas. I never thought of that question before, but my initial thoughts are:

(1) If you want to express many things together by talking, all you get is a loud, confused and obnoxious noise (think crowded train station or something similar). However, many musical "lines" may be sung together and be beautiful.

(2) In addition, music allows for many voices to sound at once and make a "whole" that is greater than the sum of its parts; i.e., all of the parts together made a beautiful harmonious melody that was much lovelier than each one singing their part one after another.

What do you people think? Does that make any sense?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Brilliant and beutiful, Rian.

[Rían]

Oh, thank you so much, Lefty! I had really never thought about it before, and as I sat and thought and drank my tea (it must have been the hot tea with cream and sugar that inspired me) those thoughts just occurred to me. It made a lot of sense to me, I'm so glad it made sense to someone else :) What a good question, Maedhros!

[Artanis]

i think of eru more as a force of nature. good and bad are labels we tend to place on things so that we may classify them.I think we have to discuss what is good and what is bad within Tolkien's universe. Ilúvatar is the almighty Creator and he is therefore the One to decide what is good and what is evil. This may not be in line with our own moral standards in our world.

To me it seems that the will to dominate other creatures by fear or force is the uttermost evil within Ea. I think this is equal to turning against the will of Ilúvatar. Melkor was guilty of this when he descended into Arda, even if it wasn't in his conscious thoughts then. The rest of the Ainur and most of Ilúvatar's children strive to do good, and even if they don't always succeed, they want to fulfill the purposes of Ilúvatar, because they love him and trust him.
Originally posted by MasterMothra
why did eru allow a rebelious being in a place where he could negatively affect the process?Like Lief have said, I don't think Ilúvatar had anything to fear from Melkor, within Arda or not. Ilúvatar is the uttermost power. He has the power to change the world after his own fashion, whenever he wants to. And he does use his power on certain occations, either directly or through the Valar, when the situation in the world tend to get out of hand. The drowning of Numenor and the altering of the shape of the world is an example.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
(1) If you want to express many things together by talking, all you get is a loud, confused and obnoxious noise (think crowded train station or something similar). However, many musical "lines" may be sung together and be beautiful.

(2) In addition, music allows for many voices to sound at once and make a "whole" that is greater than the sum of its parts; i.e., all of the parts together made a beautiful harmonious melody that was much lovelier than each one singing their part one after another.

What do you people think? Does that make any sense? It makes perfectly sense RÃ*an, it's a wonderful idea. I want to add that in a musical piece it is also easy to discover when one (or more) of the musicians are not in harmony with the others.

I wonder whether Tolkien had any particular affection for music?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
It makes perfectly sense RÃ*an, it's a wonderful idea. I want to add that in a musical piece it is also easy to discover when one (or more) of the musicians are not in harmony with the others.

I wonder whether Tolkien had any particular affection for music? Even if Tolkien did or did not have a particular affection for music, it just seems as though the creation springing from a great theme is so fitting to the story. Music seemed central even after that with the Children, especially the Elves. Some examples: the great minstrals among the Teleri and Noldor, Finrod's first meeting with Men and his chant with Sauron, Luthien singing Agband to sleep. Music seemed to be a great element to life in Middle-earth.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Brilliant and beutiful, Rian.

I agree with you. Those are some very insightful thoughts, RÃ*an.

[Maedhros]

Even if Tolkien did or did not have a particular affection for music, it just seems as though the creation springing from a great theme is so fitting to the story. Music seemed central even after that with the Children, especially the Elves.
I agree with that Sister of Nargothrond.
If you see The Letters of JRRT # 260:
I have little musical knowledge. Though I come of a musical family, owing to defects of education and opportunity as an orphan, such music as was in me was submerged (until I married a musician), or transformed into linguistic terms. Music gives me great pleasure and sometimes inspiration, but I remain in the position in reverse of one who likes to read or hear poetry but knows little of its technique or tradition, or of linguistic structure.
And this I find also interesting:
The Celts of old believed that the world was upheld and sustained by a single all-embracing melody: Oran Môr, they called it, the Great Music, and all creation was part of it. perhaps this is why Celtic music possesses the power to move us in unexpected ways - it touches that place deep in our hearts where legends still live, and we hear
again the strains of the Ancient Song. (Stephen R. Lawhead, 1996)
I think we have to discuss what is good and what is bad within Tolkien's universe. Ilúvatar is the almighty Creator and he is therefore the One to decide what is good and what is evil. This may not be in line with our own moral standards in our world.
I wonder at this thought. Is bad not in the end good. I seemed to recall this particular passage from the Published Silmarillion:
Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
This makes me think about Melkor. Does Ilúvatar knows how Melkor will turn in the end, and that his "evil deeds" will be redressed and Arda Healed will be better than Arda Unmarred? In this case "evil" is used to create better place than the one we have.

[Keith K]

Why Music was used for the creation of the World?


While I don't know why music was chosen for the creation I am glad it was. I have always been fond of the Professors' creation theory. It is a wonderful allegory using a symphony as the setting. The infinate possibilities for various thematic combinations flowing in myriad directions from a central theme are quite suitable for a creation theory. It allows for "creative creation", with each artist/musician/ainur adding a unique aria to the opus.

This symphonic creation is also singular as far as creation theories go in our own human history. At least as far as I have heard. From Christianity on down to the Tree Gods of the Pygmies I have never heard of the universe coming about as the result of a musical!

[Lefty Scaevola]

You will note in SIL that all spells are sung (perhaps that includes chanting?) Note espesially the magical duel between Finrod and Sauron.

[Earniel]

I find music can move me and inspire me in a way no other thing can. It is elusive and yet eternal. Music is perhaps the ultimate way to create something. To create something with music is IMO to give the creation even more beauty. Also there is rhythm in each and every living thing: heart beats, breathing, etc.... What better way is there to create all this than with music?

Yes! I finally found time to join this thread! :)

[Rían]

(thanks, Artanis and Lief :) )

And that is so true, Artanis, about how with music, it's easy to tell when someone is not in tune with the others.

I remembered last night another "creation" story - from the Chronicles of Narnia by C. S. Lewis, Tolkien's good friend. From book 6, The Magician's Nephew :
In the darkness something was happening at last. A voice had begun to sing. It was very far away and Digory found it hard to decide from what direction it was coming. Sometimes it seemed to come from all directions at once. Sometimes he almost thought it was coming out of the earth beneath them. Its lower notes were deep enough to be the voice of the earth herself. There were no words. There was hardly even a tune. But it was, beyond comparison, the most beautiful noise he had ever heard. It was so beautiful he could hardly bear it. ..... Then two wonders happened at the same moment. One was that the voice was suddenly joined by other voices; more voices than you could possibly count. They were in harmony with it, but far higher up on the scale: cold, tingling, silvery voices. The second wonder was that the blackness overhead, all at once, was blazing with stars. They didn't come out gently one by one, as they do on a summer evening. One moment there had been nothing but darkness; next moment a thousand, thousand points of light leaped out - single stars, constellations, and planets, brighter and bigger than any in our world. .... you would have felt quite certain that it was the stars themselves who were singing, and that it was the First Voice, the deep one, which had made them appear and made them sing.

A long quote, but interesting, both in the similarities and differences.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
You will note in SIL that all spells are sung (perhaps that includes chanting?) Note espesially the magical duel between Finrod and Sauron.

Yes, that is so moving. I especially like this part: Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This makes me think about Melkor. Does Ilúvatar knows how Melkor will turn in the end, and that his "evil deeds" will be redressed and Arda Healed will be better than Arda Unmarred? In this case "evil" is used to create better place than the one we have.

I think I agree with you on that one. Where you go from that statement though is a lot more touchy, and liable to turn into a big clash of opinions.

If you use this to say that Ilúvatar is responsible for evil, I'd say that the only reason he's responsible for it is in allowing it to be. That is because he gave us free will. He didn't do the evil or make it, but it came from the goodness of one of his gifts. But he turned the wickedness that happened through it to good.

I don't think that this implies Ilúvatar has a hand in evil as well as good, though, simply because he allows his creations to do what they wish, and he turns what they do into good.

From what is visible of his character in the Silmarillion and LoTR is all good, and I'm willing to contest anything that is brought up against the uprightness of his character. His justice and punishment of evil are very discernable themes, and if he had evil in himself, he would be guilty of the ultimate hypocrisy. I don't believe that J.R.R. Tolkien would have created as the god of his world an ultimate hypocrite, or a creature with evil in itself.

All that is shown in the quote is that he won't tolerate evil . . . he will even turn it from being evil in the end so that there is nothing but perfection in the final product of his creation. It came without being a part of his will, but he has ultimate control and so can turn it to the goodness of his final creation.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Is bad not in the end good.This makes me think about Melkor. Does Ilúvatar knows how Melkor will turn in the end, and that his "evil deeds" will be redressed and Arda Healed will be better than Arda Unmarred? In this case "evil" is used to create better place than the one we have. Yes, because when someone tries to do evil, Ilúvatar takes notice and by his power changes it into a good thing, as is said in the quote you give from the Sil. But this, and the fact that Ilúvatar permits evil to happen, does not mean that he wanted it to happen. In fact evil deeds are on certain occasions punished. We don't know what Arda would have been like if Melkor had not rebelled. You may be right, but Arda may also have been Arda Remade from the very beginning. I tend to believe the latter.
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
You will note in SIL that all spells are sung (perhaps that includes chanting?) Note espesially the magical duel between Finrod and Sauron. Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair Even if Tolkien did or did not have a particular affection for music, it just seems as though the creation springing from a great theme is so fitting to the story. Music seemed central even after that with the Children, especially the Elves. Some examples: the great minstrals among the Teleri and Noldor, Finrod's first meeting with Men and his chant with Sauron, Luthien singing Agband to sleep. Music seemed to be a great element to life in Middle-earth.
I haven't particularly noticed this before, but now that you have pointed it out, it makes sense. Thanks, everyone! :)

[Rían]

An interesting bit from letter #212 re the Ainur and the music: [The Ainur] interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introducted alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'.

A subtle but important difference - making "interpretations" was the proper response for created beings, and they found great joy in it; Melkor, however, made "alterations", thus claiming to be on equal footing with the One.

[Wayfarer]

It seems to me that Melkor is dominating this discussion, so I'd like to introduce some speculations on the other points.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Is the Universe Predefined?

"But unto man he gave a new gift, that they should be able to shape their lives beyond the music of tha ainur, which is fate to all other living things."

I think that clinches it. Much of the universe is-the shape of the world is a result of the music, and of the valar working to bring it about. But men are not bound by destiny. Each is truly 'Turambar'-master of fate.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?

I think that if melkor had not already fallen into pride, he would not have felt such shame. Observe Aules's actions when illuvatar confronts him about the dwarves: not only does he accept the chastisement and admit that he was wrong, he immediately seeks to rectify the situation. This is a sharp contrast to melkor who, though shamed, refuses to repent.

Is this but a presage to all of us that Arda remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred?

Yes, and I think I can see the reason why. At the end of days, all who would marr arda will be defeated. The storm will have come and gone, and all will have weathered it or cracked.

Originally posted by Maedhros


I think that is very easily answered:
For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme.

Now, this referance to 'the third theme' I think refers to the second of the musics that Ilúvatar set against the dischord of melkor. Remember? The first theme is that which eru originally set before the ainur, which they all palyed together. Then came the dischord of melkor, which continued until the end of the music. The second theme was like the first, but deeper and sad. The third theme was that which started soft, but grew, and took the most rtiumphant notes of the dischord and to itself. Finally, Ilúvatar played one note, which stopped all the other musics.

I think that some symbolism is evident here, especially since the music is responsible for the creation.

The first theme was played correctly-wioth all the ainur, including melkor, in harmony. I think this corrosponds to the original making of arda, which all working together.

The dischord represents the waging of warfare upon the valar by melkor.

The second theme is the renewed efforts of the valar agains melkor-it is changed, as the valar have change, but it (and they) are still fundamentally the same.

The third theme, the only one which we are specefically told about, represents the children of illuvatar. It is typical of them that, like the music, they can take even melkor's seeming victory and turn it to thier own triumph. I think this is the source of the beauty and tragedy of man-Beren, Turin, Farimir, Aragorn, all prevail even in the face of defeat. Just so with the elves; and we read of the fall of fingolfin, not with the looming dread of death and defeat, but with exhiliration. In this way, even the most dischordant notes can be turned into sweet music.

[Rían]

by Sister Golden Hair:
But his rebellion was unproductive to the intent of Iluvatar.

Originally posted by MasterMothra

it only appeared to be unproductive. what morgoth did or did not do was all for the greater will of eru. morgoth and sauron may have thought what they did was counter-productive, but in the end they were both just instruments of eru.

"for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

thats a good passage.

I was re-reading this thread and this section reminded me of something that I just read today in C. S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain: In the fallen and partially redeemed universe we may distinguish (1) the simple good descending from God, (2) the simple evil produced by rebellious creatures, and (3) the exploitation of that evil by God for His redemptive purpose, which produces (4) the complex good to which accepted suffering and repented sin contribute. Now the fact that God can make complex good out of simple evil does not excuse - though by mercy it may save - those who do the simple evil. .... A merciful man aims at his neighbour's good and so does "God's will", consciously co-operating with 'the simple good'. A cruel man oppresses his neighbour, and so does simple evil. But in doing such evil, he is used by God, without his own knowledge or consent, to produce the complex good - so that the first man serves God as a son, and the second as a tool. For you will certainly carry out God's purpose, however you act, but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John.
I've seen some people say that Melkor's evil acts were a good thing because Eru produced some good things in response to them. I think that that idea is a misconception. Melkor's actions were indeed evil - but because Eru is greater, he can "trump" those actions to produce what Lewis calls a "complex good".

The question about whether Arda Remade would be better than Arda if it were unmarred - well, I don't think that Eru would be sitting around thinking "oh shoot, why can't someone just hurry up and rebel against me so that I can do a complex good!!" I think that both would be equally good, but perhaps just different - as two pictures by Monet can be equally brilliant but also different. It's certainly a complicated question.

[Rían]

And speaking of the complex good - I'd like to quote one of my favorite sections in the Ainulindalë:And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'
Then Ulmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!' And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.

Isn't that beautiful? And maybe Ilúvatar would have introduced the snowflake in another way if Melkor had not rebelled...

(gee, it's nice to be able to type fast! I can post such long quotes!)

[Rían]

And re Ulmo, who was most instructed in the music, it's interesting that the Eldar say that the echo of the Music of the Ainur lives most in water. And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.
Now to water had that Ainu whom the Elves call Ulmo turned his thought, and of all most deeply was he instructed by Ilúvatar in music.
And it's interesting how in the previous quote, Ilúvatar said that the music of the sea was not "utterly quelled" by Melkor. I wonder what it sounded like before Melkor marred it?

[Cirdan]

The theme of music in creation is very interesting as a mechanism in relation to the movement of energy in nature. The wave form in light, sound and motion are universal in nature. Waves can compound or cancel one another, change form and media, and the motion is most visible in water. Water is also always associated with life. The vast water cycle of the earth, land, and sea create a great connectedness: water exists in all realms.

Ulmo seems to be most connected with the earth while Manwe is more connected to Illuvatar. Wheile Ulmo''s influence in middle earth is felt more immediately by the dwellers there, Manwe is most in touch with the will of the creator.

The evil of Melkor is a complex question which cannot really be resolved. It is clear that Illuvatar's will is in his creation and that he could not do else but Illuvatar's intent. If Illuvatar intented there to be no evil in Middle Earth there couldn't be. I have trouble with the free will idea being applied to a deity. I think that the message is that evil exists to contrast to that which is good.

The question arises as to whether free will can exist without temptation and fear. Melkor exists to manifest these aspects of nature. The evil is a force not for good but for greater good through trial. Would the Simarils evoked so much creation of the nature of elves sitting is a glass case in Arda? Would Beren and Luthien's tale be as powerful if they just settled down and had a few offspring? Melkor must be evil for the true nature of the inhabitants to be realized and for them to have free will.

Like the music the experiment of Middle Earth has a beginning and an end. What exists outside is non-creation or potential creation. Not always silence but rather discord. The music of creation overlays the discord and even removes it by taking advantage of the harmonic tendency of all things to create somthing greater than the sum of the parts..

[Keith K]

The entries in this thread have been an interesting read. All of y'all 'philosophers' have been well spoken and have made informed and intellegent points. Of course philosophy is all a matter of opinion and there is no "right" answer in the debate over good vs. evil / marred vs. unmarred.

IMO, there must be balance in the universe/Ea. If there is good, then its opposite must also be present in the form of evil. Yin and Yang, matter and anti-matter, so to speak.

While I cannot say what Illuvitars' "intent" was regarding the evil in Melkor, I feel that Arda unmarred would be a very boring place. Where's the story if everyone lives "happily ever after" right from the beginning?

[Rían]

I wouldn't say that Tolkien's Ea is yin/yang, though - from letter #156 (one of the footnotes):from letter #156 by JRR Tolkien:
There is only one 'god': God, Eru Ilúvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures.

Now the yin/yang thing comes in one level down from Ilúvatar, IMO - Melkor and Manwë - but it is very clear that the One has no equal (or opposite 'evil' power of equal stature).

[Rían]

Keith K - your last paragraph reminds me of the following passage:from The Hobbit, by you know who!
Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.

[Keith K]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
but it is very clear that the One has no equal (or opposite 'evil' power of equal stature).

Perhaps the Great Void can be construed to be the opposite of Illuvatar. Nothingness vs. Creation.

[Wayfarer]

Perhaps, but I think that on the whole dualism is deeply flawed.

If what you say is true, what could possibly be the reason of remaking arda without the evil influences? That would, by your reasoning, be unbalancing the universe, and would be a bad thing.

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Perhaps, but I think that on the whole dualism is deeply flawed.

If what you say is true, what could possibly be the reason of remaking arda without the evil influences? That would, by your reasoning, be unbalancing the universe, and would be a bad thing.

Oh my! Have I gone and unbalanced the universe......again?;)
Actually, the attempt to remake Arda is merely a continuation of the original battle of good vs. evil. The duality exists.

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Perhaps, but I think that on the whole dualism is deeply flawed.

All philosophies are flawed in one way or another.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Keith K
Perhaps the Great Void can be construed to be the opposite of Illuvatar. Nothingness vs. Creation.

Then I think that Tolkien would have said that in his letter.

[Cirdan]

The duality can exist without being balanced. The dark side tends to be more insidious and "worldly" while the good side is more powerful by reason and beauty. Destruction is easier than creation but draws much less ardent and stalwart supporters.

[Maedhros]

This are interesting things that I got out of the Music of the Ainur from BOLT 1.
Thereafter he fashioned them dwellings in the void, and dwelt among them, teaching them all manner of things, and the greatest of these was music.
Made them dwellings in the Void? Interesting. Notice the inference that something was made before the Music.
Then said Ilúvatar: "The story that I have laid before you, and that great region of beauty that I have described unto you as the place where all that history might be unfolded and enacted, is related only as it were in outline. I have not filled all the empty spaces, neither have I recounted to you all the adornments and things of loveliness and delicacy whereof my mind is full.
Extremely familiar with the Published Silmarillon.
Never was there before, nor has there been since, such a music of immeasurable vastness of splendour; though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End. Then shall Ilúvatar's mightiest themes be played aright; for then Ainur and Men will know his mind and heart as well as may be, and all his intent.
Notice that he speaks of Men and not the Children of Ilúvatar. Perhaps, that is why in the Athrabeth, when Finrod says that Men have the power to make things right that Melkor perverted in the theme?
There had he nonetheless fallen to thinking deep cunning thoughts of his own, all of which he showed not even to Ilúvatar. Some of these devisings and imaginings he now wove into his music, and straightway harshness and discordancy rose about him, and many of those that played nigh him grew despondent and their music feeble, and their thoughts unfinished and unclear, while many others fell to attuning their music to his rather than to the great theme wherein they began.
Notice the detail and the emphasis in the time that Melkor spent in the Void. Did his thoughts had something to do with the fact that he was alone in the Void without the other Ainur?
Then Ilúvatar raised his right hand, and he no longer smiled but wept; and behold a third theme, and it was in no way like the others
Notice the difference with the Published Silmarillion, here Ilúvatar wept.
Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder: -- for lo! Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest."
Notice the quality in the detail, and the clarity in which it is implied that Arda Reborn or Remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred.
but of all these water was held the fairest and most goodly and most greatly praised. Indeed there liveth still in water a deeper echo of the Music of the Ainur than in any substance else that is in the world, and at this latest day many of the Sons of Men will hearken unsatedly to the voice of the Sea and long for they know not what.
Again the importance of Water, and the fact that the one most responsible for it, was the one who was most instructed by Ilúvatar in the art of Music.
Knowing all their hearts, still did Ilúvatar grant the desire of the Ainur, nor is it said he was grieved thereat.
This is missing from the Published Silmarillion. Ilúvatar grieved from the departing of some of his Ainur.
Che pensi tu?

[Rían]

Maedhros, I read that last quote to mean that He was NOT grieved - IOW, it was NOT said that He was grieved, so He wasn't grieved. Opinions?? :confused:

[Cirdan]

I think it means it is not known whether he was grieved or not.

[Rían]

Yes, Cirdan, I think logically it certainly means that we don't know whether or not He was grieved. I think, however, classically that form is used to show that, in this case, He was not grieved over a situation where one might think that He might be grieved. Do you know what I mean? It's a way of saying, poetically and lyrically, "Well, you think that Ilúvatar might be bummed about some of his main guys faffing off to Arda, but I haven't heard that He was at all, so I guess it was cool!"

[Cirdan]

I thinl you could assume he was not grieved as that would have been notable. You could also assume there was some grief at the parting or that things weren't quite as he had wished them. While it is open to interpretation I would agree with the former were I to choose.

[Earniel]

Notice that he speaks of Men and not the Children of Ilúvatar. Perhaps, that is why in the Athrabeth, when Finrod says that Men have the power to make things right that Melkor perverted in the theme?

Since Men where the only ones from the Children of Ilúvatar whose fate wasn't controlled by the themes it would seem logical IMO that they could make the music right in the end since they were not part of the themes that went before and were corrupted by Melkor.

(whoa long sentense!)

[Rían]

Yes, that section in the Athrabeth is very intriguing, isn't it?

[Rían]

What are people's opinions on the "Deeps of Time" phrase? I know over in a related thread, "Did Ilúvatar make Melkor Evil", we've been discussing how we think Ilúvatar is outside of time, and the people of Arda are in time.

[Lefty Scaevola]

In our universe time is a property of the substance of the universe space time. This time does not exist outside the limits of the universe. I would suppose it it the same in Ea, which is a fictional version of our universe. What ever is ousite has a different time, which may be of an altogether different nature, more different than just being similar to ours but asynchronous.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
What are people's opinions on the "Deeps of Time" phrase? I know over in a related thread, "Did Ilúvatar make Melkor Evil", we've been discussing how we think Ilúvatar is outside of time, and the people of Arda are in time. I have always thought the concept of time were a part of Ea, and had no meaning outside it.

[Lief Erikson]

Yes. If you think time is universal, and is for Ilúvatar as well, then you get into the question also of how anything came to be. How was Ilúvatar created? How did the first creation begin? Ilúvatar couldn't have created himself . . .

But if you accept another dimension, then everything becomes more reasonable. Things just are; they don't have to be made. Arda is a creation in which many of these rules have been alterred.

[Wayfarer]

Iluvatar can't possibly be contained by time, if he created it. And if he didn't create it, and he is contained by it, where did it come from?

[Cirdan]

The "Deeps of Time" reads to me as though it were a time far from the beginning or end of time analogous to the depths of the ocean. I don't see Iluvatar as creating time expliciting, only being unconstrained by linear time.

I wonder about the "Flame Imperishable". It seems to be something outside of Iluvatar that he uses as a source of power or a tool. It may only be a sort of cosmic forge, but it is not clear.

[Lief Erikson]

Actually, there your reasoning is a little flawed, Wayfarer. I agree with your conclusion, that Ilúvatar is outside of time, but I don't agree with your means of reaching that conclusion. Some things simply are, without being created. If you assume that Ilúvatar's character is righteous and that he hates evil, then it would be stretching things the "Means justify the ends" argument by quite a bit to say that he created evil. Ilúvatar didn't create himself. There has to be another dimension in which things simply are, without having to become. Time could be one of those things.

However, I don't believe it is. Otherwise, Ilúvatar shouldn't be able to have any knowledge of the future. The only explanation in that case for his knowledge of the future is predestination. And I don't think either you or I accept predestination. Besides, if there was predestination, and Ilúvatar's character is righteous, then there shouldn't be any evil. Only free will can explain evil, unless you attack Ilúvatar's character. And the possibility of free will is explained by Ilúvatar's being outside of time.

If any of you readers disagree with this, please move to the "Ilúvatar created Melkor evil?" thread. That is one of the prime things we've been discussing there, although we also get into other things.

[Rían]

I remember reading something like 'the flame is with Ilúvatar " - I'll try to find it.

To me, I get a picture of "the deeps of time" as almost an ocean, but in a slightly different way; almost as if Ilúvatar created a "Deeps of Time" area and "immersed" Arda in it - so the inhabitants of Arda are "in" time, but Ilúvatar and other parts of His creation are outside of it. Just kind of a murky picture I have in my head - does anyone else have a similar picture? (IOW, it's not a particular time, but it contains all times)

[Rían]

Oh, here it is - the 5th paragraph from the beginning: Yet he [Melkor] found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar.
The way that's worded, it seems like the flame is an integral part of Ilúvatar, and he may bestow it where he wishes (or part of it, because I wouldn't think His portion would be lessened!). In the 3rd parag., it says that the Ainur were kindled with the Flame Imperishable. Also, when Ilúvatar says "Eä! Let these things Be!", he puts the Flame into the heart of the world. Also, in Morgoth's Ring somewhere, he gives some to Varda - I'll try to find that tomorrow.

[Cirdan]

I did see that but with and within are different. If it resides with him it only means the Ainur can't get to it for their own purposes; that he controls it.

[Rían]

Yes, they are different words - I wonder if it refers to (hang on folks! Remember Tolkien was Catholic! Really, I'm not trying to "force" things here, it's just a thought that just occurred to me) the Holy Spirit? Hmm, I had never thought of that before. This is a thought-provoking thread. Anyway, it is definitely some type of sustaining force that resided only with Ilúvatar.

Did you see my edits, Cirdan? You posted before I was thru editing. I think you said you didn't have Morgoth's Ring yet, tho - you were hoping to get it for Christmas :) I hope you get it! I'll find that section tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it.

Goodnite all! I'm turning in early for once :D

[Lief Erikson]

I thought something along those lines too, RÃ*an, but slightly different. In John it says something very, very similar to "The Flame was with Ilúvatar." "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . ."

Originally posted by RÃ*an
In the 3rd parag., it says that the Ainur were kindled with the Flame Imperishable. Also, when Ilúvatar says "Eä! Let these things Be!", he puts the Flame into the heart of the world.

In Tolkien's writing, things spring to being through the music; in the Bible, things spring to being through God's speaking. Spells in the Silmarillion are sung (As is the music), miracles in the Bible are done by simple commands (As is God's speaking). The Flame is with Ilúvatar, and I'm filling in a blank, but I think the reason Melkor couldn't find it is because it was Ilúvatar. Ilúvatar was the creating force, and Melkor couldn't find the Flame outside of him. The Flame was with Ilúvatar and the Flame was Ilúvatar.

This, based upon observations, I think is a reasonable hypothesis. What the Word is, I don't precisely know, but I think the Flame is meant to be the same thing.

This hypothesis isn't proven until we find a quote somewhere that says the Flame is Ilúvatar, and I'm not trying to force this idea on anyone. Nevertheless, I agree with you RÃ*an; it is interesting to think about.

Originally posted by Cirdan
I did see that but with and within are different. If it resides with him it only means the Ainur can't get to it for their own purposes; that he controls it.

I don't profess to understand it either. In the Bible, it is possible. For example, there is the fact that God is One God, yet at the same time he is a Trinity. I think I have a better understanding about the Trinity not being contradictory with One God though than about the Word, or the Flame. Also you become one with your wife or husband when you marry, you become one with God through Jesus Christ . . .

I know we're not discussing the Bible. However, considering that Tolkien was a Christian, it could be the same sort of thing.

[Artanis]

I don't think it's important to know what the Flame is exactly. What's important is what it enables Ilúvatar to do: To create forms of life that are independent of himself and with free will. Aule could create the dwarves, but he did not have the Flame and the dwarves to begin with had no will of their own, but were merely puppets. Independent will were given to the dwarves by Ilúvatar alone.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't think it's important to know what the Flame is exactly. What's important is what it enables Ilúvatar to do: To create forms of life that are independent of himself and with free will. Aulë could create the dwarves, but he did not have the Flame and the dwarves to begin with had no will of their own, but were merely puppets. Independent will were given to the dwarves by Ilúvatar alone.

Oh, but it's such fun to brainstorm different possibilities :D

Yes, the dwarves example is interesting. And I really like Aulë's humility, and his willingness to even destroy his work, and how Ilúvatar then accepts his work and gives it life. But more on that in Chpt. 4!

A little bit from Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Author's Note #11 (i.e., JRRT, not CRT):This is actually glimpsed in the Ainulindalë , in which reference is made to the 'Flame Imperishable'. This appears to mean the Creative activity of Eru (in some sense distinct from or within Him), by which things could be given a 'real' and independent (through derivitive and created) existence. The Flame Imperishable is sent out from Eru, to dwell in the heart of the world, and the world then Is, on the same plane as the Ainur, and they can enter into it.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
[B]I thought something along those lines too, RÃ*an, but slightly different. In John it says something very, very similar to "The Flame was with Ilúvatar." "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . ."
..... What the Word is, I don't precisely know ...

I've always understood the Word (in the Bible) to be Jesus - ref. John 1:14 - PM me if you want other refs.

I know we're not discussing the Bible. However, considering that Tolkien was a Christian, it could be the same sort of thing.
And I can give you the letter reference where he says he's a Christian! RÃ*an, the letter-meister of Entmoot! :D

[Rían]

Here's the MR quote about Varda - it's from Myths Transformed II, where JRRT is fiddling around with the idea of the round earth and the sun and moon around before the two trees, etc. : And Melkor was jealous, therefore, of all other brightnesses, and wished to take all light unto himself. Therefore Ilúvatar, at the entering in of the Valar into Eä, added a theme to the Great Song which was not in it at the first Singing, and he called one of the Ainur to him. Now this was that Spirit which afterwards became Varda (and taking female form became the spouse of Manwë). To Varda Ilúvatar said: 'I will give unto thee a parting gift. Thou shalt take into Eä a light that is holy, coming new from Me, unsullied by the thought and lust of Melkor, and with thee it shall enter into Eä, and be in Eä, but not of Eä.'

And then a bit further down, Varda gives a portion of the light into Arië's keeping (the spirit with the Sun), and Melkor tries to take her and gets burned, and after that, light pained him and he hated it. A brief summary, but I got tired of typing long quotes!

[Earniel]

I never really saw the Flame Imperishable as part of Ilúvatar. I alsways saw it as a sort of tool, one that only Ilúvatar could wield or create.

[Rían]

Yes, I think I agree with you guys now that it's separate from Ilúvatar, but as Eärniel and Cirdan said, only Ilúvatar can wield/control it.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The falme imperishable could be the Tolkien version of the holy spirit/ghoast part of the chistian trinity. it appear to serve a similar purpose with spect to the creation of sentient beings.

[Rían]

Does anyone have any other comments from the supplemental sources?

[Cirdan]

"Who is Iluvatar?" said Eriol. "Was he of the Gods?"
"Nay," said Rumil, "that he was not, for he made them. Iluvatar is the Lord of Always who dwells beyond the world; who made it and is not of it or in it, but loves it."

- The Book of Lost Tales



'Lo! After the departure of the Ainur and their vassalage all was quiet for a great age while Iluvatar watched. The all of a sudden he said: "Behold I love the world, and it is a hall of play for Eldar and Men who are may beloved. But when the Eldar come they will be the fairest, and the most lovely of all things by far; and deeper in the knowledge of beauty, and happier than Men. But to Men I will give a new gift, and a greater." Therefore he devised that Men should have a free virtue whereby within the limits of the powers and substances and changes of the world they might fashion and design their life beyond even the original Music of the Ainur that is fate to all things else. This he did that of their operations everything should in shape and deed be completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. Lo! Even the Eldar have found to our sorrow that Men have a strange power for good or ill and for turning things despite Gods and Fairies to their mood in the world; so that we say: "Fate may not conquer the Children of Men, but yet are they strangely blind, whereas their joy should be great."

Now Iluvatar knew that Men set amid turmoils of the Ainur would not be ever of a mind to use that gift in harmnoy with his intent, but thereto he said: "These too in their time shall find that all they have done, even the ugliest of deeds and works, redounds at the end only to my glory, and is tributary to the beauty of my world." Yet the Ainursay that the thought of Men is at times a grief even to Iluvatar; wherefore in the giving of that gift of freedom was their envy and amazement, the patience of Iluvatar at its misuse is a matter of the greatest marvelling to both Gods and Fairies. It is however of one with this gift of power that the Children of Men dwell only a short time in the world alive, yet do not perish utterly for ever, whereas the Eldar dwell til the Great End unless they be slain or waste to grief (for to both of these deaths are they sublect), nor doth eld subdue their strength, exceptit may be in ten thousand centuries; and dying they are reborn in their children, so that their number minishes not, nor grows. Yet while the Sons of Menwill after the passing of things of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Iluvatarhas devised for the Eldar beyond the world's end he has not revealed even to the Valar, and Melko has not discovered it'

- The Book of Lost Tales

These two passages, the first before the Music of the Ainur and the latter after, give a somewhat different nature to the tale than the final version. The first passage seams to be a effort to differentiate Iluvatar from the god of Tolkien's own faith. While it is clear that he sought to create a unique story of creation, there is little doubt of the heavy influence on his writing of his own faith.

The second passage is an interesting detail of the nature of Men. Here they are the only beings free from the fates. Yet even they cannot escape the eventual destiny of Middle Earth. This fatalism of the earlier version of the story is quite a bit stronger than the final version. Whether it is an edit of literary content or a change of philosophy to the final version in the Silmarillion is impossible to say. Many of the stories in the Book(s) of Lost Tales are much greater in detail. The stories are also told as a narrative within a larger tale. If you enjoyed the Silmarillon you with like the BoLTs as well. The Tales of Tuor, Gondolin, and Earendil are much greater in detail than those given in the Silmarillon. I highly reccommend the read.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Cirdan
The first passage seams to be a effort to differentiate Iluvatar from the god of Tolkien's own faith. While it is clear that he sought to create a unique story of creation, there is little doubt of the heavy influence on his writing of his own faith.

Isn't it interesting how two people interpret things totally differently? For me, the first passage only emphasizes Ilúvatar's total omni-ness, to coin a word :) (omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, etc.) by showing how He is above the "gods". This makes Him even more like "the God of Tolkien's own faith". When Tolkien uses "gods", plural, he means the Valar, who are below Ilúvatar in both essence and in the fact that they are His creations. To re-quote a footnote of Letter #156 (I don't know how you can stand to wait for Christmas for Letters, Cirdan! It's such a great read!): from JRRT's letters
There is only one 'god': God, Eru Iluvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures.

]Originally posted by Cirdan
If you enjoyed the Silmarillon you with like the BoLTs as well. The Tales of Tuor, Gondolin, and Earendil are much greater in detail than those given in the Silmarillon. I highly reccommend the read.
I love "The Fall of Gondolin" in BoLT II. I really like Tuor's character, and am looking forward to when we reach his section in the discussion.

Is Unfinished Tales part of HoME? I have that one, too, and there's lots of little goodies about ME that really fill in some LoTR areas, like "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields", where it tells in much greater detail what happened to Isildur.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Isn't it interesting how two people interpret things totally differently? For me, the first passage only emphasizes Ilúvatar's total omni-ness, to coin a word :) (omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, etc.) by showing how He is above the "gods". This makes Him even more like "the God of Tolkien's own faith". When Tolkien uses "gods", plural, he means the Valar, who are below Ilúvatar in both essence and in the fact that they are His creations.

If he is "not in it" or "of it" then he is not omnipresent. Also, the additon of polytheistic elements such as a pantheon of living gods that exist in the world is pretty different from Christian theology. It is definately a blend of some or the Norse and Greek gods with the monotheistic god of omnipotence and love (not like Jupiter). I think Tolkien wanted to create a god that was not as great or greater than his own. Again what he intended to be published and what was postumously published as a precursor to the finished story. Here the excerpt and the quote are obviously incongruent as angels are not gods. The fact that the gods are oriented towards forces of nature tends to lend more credence to the polytheist aspect of the ME mythology.

Is Unfinished Tales part of HoME?
The first four were issued as HoME and the next set as the History of the Lord of the Rings. The most recent print refers to all the volumes as part of the HoME.

I mispelled seems?:rolleyes:

[Ñólendil]

Er, Cirdan, maybe you misunderstand whoever asked about Unfinished Tales. The answer is: no, Unfinished Tales is not part of the History of Middle-earth. It's a seperate, independent book, published before the History of Middle-earth.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Er, Cirdan, maybe you misunderstand whoever asked about Unfinished Tales. The answer is: no, Unfinished Tales is not part of the History of Middle-earth. It's a seperate, independent book, published before the History of Middle-earth.
Oh yeah, I have a habit of mixing up the different "tales" books...

[Rían]

Well, Cirdan, I guess we're doomed to disagree here, because to me the "not in it" or "of it" refers back to the "Gods", the beings that Rumil is differentiating from Ilúvatar. The Valar (IOW, the Ainur that chose to enter Arda) are "in it" and "of it", as opposed to Ilúvatar, who is not "in it" or "of it" because He created it. It has nothing to do with his omnipresence, IMO.

And Tolkien clearly states that the gods of ME are angelic beings. A better translation would be "powers" or "governors". He more than once lamented how he used English words for some of his creations, such as wizards and elves. He just thought that too many "foreign" words would be too confusing. From letter 131, from letter 131 of JRRT:
The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making.

(italics are Tolkien's own, not mine)

Re seams - you must have been pulling a loose thread from your clothing, so you wrote "seams" :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

We need to remember too that the BoLTs is the old mythology, therefore it is not part of LotRs, the Silmarillion, or Unfinished Tales.

[Lief Erikson]

I've never read Unfinished Tales, but seeing as it's written by J.R.R. Tolkien, it must be good. Could anyone tell me why it's called Unfinished Tales though? Is it because it doesn't end, but just leaves off because Tolkien stopped writing it, or is there another reason?

[Rían]

It consists of stories in various stages of completion. As is my usual habit, I'll give a quote, this time from the introduction by Christopher Tolkien: The narratives in this book ... taken together they constitude no whole, and the book is no more than a collection of writings, disparate in form, intent, finish, and date of composition .... concerned with Numenor and Middle-earth."

Then he goes on to say that basically there is such stunning imagery in the writings that he thinks that Tolkien fans would really appreciate it. (and I agree with him!)

Some of the main stories - Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin; Narn I Hin Hurin (both of these are somewhat in the Sil), The History of Galadriel and Celeborn (and this one is really unfinished! He changes his mind numerous times).

Also some shorter but very interesting stories: The Disaster of the Gladden Fields (talking about Isildur and how the ring was lost); The Quest of Erebor (really fun! the "real" story of how Gandalf convinced Thorin to take Bilbo along); and The Hunt for the Ring (more info on black riders, including how they are "afraid" of water).

I would recommend UT over the BoLT books, because as SGH said, BoLT is largely the "old" mythology, although much of it is obviously pertinent (although the Tuor section in BoLT II is really wonderful). Also, I really like MR (Morgoth's Ring), book 10 of HoME series. Solution - buy everything! :D (I wish I could!)

[Rían]

And I would recommend The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien over UT and HoME! I have thoroughly enjoyed Letters. But that's just my opinion.

[Maedhros]

We need to remember too that the BoLTs is the old mythology, therefore it is not part of LotRs, the Silmarillion, or Unfinished Tales.
I would recommend UT over the BoLT books, because as SGH said, BoLT is largely the "old" mythology, although much of it is obviously pertinent (although the Tuor section in BoLT II is really wonderful).
From Bolt 1: The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor
This is not to say that all such imagining was definitively
abandoned: as I have said in the Foreword, the Lost Tales
were followed by a version so compressed as to be no more
than a resume (as was its purpose), and the later development
of the mythology proceeded from that -- a process of re-
expansion. Many things never referred to again after the Lost
Tales may have continued to exist in a state of suspension,
as it were.
Certainly, many things were lost in Bolt, yet by reading it you can gain more insight about the characters in the Silmarillion. For example: if you read the Theft of Melko, you will get to see a rare view of the character of Manwë, and you will come to understand why he is the noblest of the Ainur.
There are many wonderful things in Bolt: in some cases a more detailed description of places, we have the concept of Ælfwine, Olórë Marë (The Cottage of Lost Play), we have the Lady of Tol Eressëa Meril-i-Turinqi, we have the Man in the Moon (who turns out to be an Elf Uolë Kúvion).
The great thing about Bolt is that you get to see first hand the first evolution of the Legendarium, and the poems at the end of Bolt 1 are very beautiful.

[SonOfSamWise]

"Philosophical reflections again?" Ivan snarled malignantly.
"God preserve me from it, but one can't help complaining sometimes. I am a slandered man... I have naturally a kind and merry heart... Before time was, by some decree which I could never make out, I was presdestined 'to deny' and yet I am genuinely good-hearted and not at all inclined to negation. 'No you must go and deny, without denial there is no criticism and what would a journal be without a collumn of criticism?' Without criticism it would be nothing but one 'hosannah.' But nothing but hossanna is not enough for life, the hosannah must be tried in the crucible of doubt and so on, in the same style. But I don't meddle in that, I didn't create it, I am not answerable for it. Well, they've chosen their scapegoat, they've made me write the collumn of criticism and so life was made possible... I...simply ask for annihilation. No, live, I am told, for there'd be nothing without you. If everything in the universe were sensible, nothing would happen. There would be no events without you, and there must be events. So against the grain I serve to produce events and do whats irrational because I am commanded to... [Men] suffer, of course...but then they live...for suffering is life. Without suffering, what would be the pleasure of it? It would be transformed into an endless church service; it would be holy, but tedious. I suffer, but I still don't live. I am an X in an indeterminant equation. I am a sort of phantom in life who has lost all beginning and end, and who has even forgotten his own name.

-- The Devil. Ivan's Nightmare, The Brothers Karamozov, Fyodor Dostoyevsky

"...the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many..."

:cool:

[Valandil]

I've just started my Silmarillion re-read. Read (for the first time - it's in an edition I bought since my last reading) JRRT's letter to his publisher, outlining what's in the Silmarillion, how it affects the rest, and explaining why he wanted to publish it along with LOTR.

Finished reading Ainulindale... and starting in Valaquenta.

I see that even the last post in this thread pre-dates my joining Entmoot. But now... I can join in the discussion. :p

[Earniel]

Upon my last rereading of Ainulindalë, I was struck at the evolution of how I saw Melkor in it.

I no longer see Melkor as evil, rather more like chaos, which is in itself not necessarily good or bad. Which makes the whole idea of Melkor versus the other Ainur and (his meddling in the themes) one of chaos versus order, and not one of good versus evil. The good versus evil allegory clearly comes from a Christian viewpoint (to which I am subject too) and while Tolkien was clearly influenced by his faith, I think this is where he deliberatedly wanted his mythology to be different.

I find this epiphany opens up a new line of thought. It would explain better, IMO, why Ilúvatar made Melkor the one odd Ainu out, so to speak. There is no reason you'd really need evil in a world you're creating. But the moment you deal with independant life it needs adversity to strive and thrive against. Order is useful and life needs order to arise. But when you want it to do more than just be, when it needs to change and grow, it needs chaos. Melkor provided that in spades.

I'm not saying he isn't evil, but that seems to come later, when he looses his powers to create. For something as chaotic as Melkor it is ironic he himself dealt so badly with things not going his way. And it's not like Ilúvatar didn't warn him.

What the three themes are meant to represent, though, still somewhat eludes me as do Ilúvatar's reactions to it. Maybe in another fifteen years, I get another new insight. :heart:

[Alcuin]

What the three themes are meant to represent, though, still somewhat eludes me as do Ilúvatar's reactions to it. Maybe in another fifteen years, I get another new insight. :heart:I thought the three themes were Arda itself, the Elves, and Men.

Ainulindalë is for me the most difficult of all Tolkien’s stories. He is attempting to describe the creation of the universe and the fall of the angelic powers. [ I]t came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.That sounds rather selfish on Melkor’s part: if you will, he is stealing from the other Ainur what is rightfully theirs, and attempting to steal from Ilúvatar what is rightfully His: namely, ultimate control of the Music. [T]hou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.

He sounds like the classic schoolyard bully: When … Earth was yet young … Melkor coveted it, and he said to the other Valar: “This shall be my own kingdom; and I name it unto myself!”

Melkor certainly wasn’t evil at his beginning. He had an enormous ego: first he wanted what belonged to the other Ainur; then he wanted what belonged to Ilúvatar.

Melkor is, I think, Tolkien’s version of Satan. In Roman Catholic tradition, when shown God’s plan to walk among human beings, Lucifer cries out, “I will not serve!”

In Judaism, from which Christianity springs, in the Tanakh (“Old Testament” for Christians), Isaiah 14:12-14, How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.”And the tradition is that the Archangel Michael cried out, “Who is like God?” whereupon Lucifer fell from Heaven. Michael (with a soft “ch”) in Hebrew, מִיכָאֵל‎, means “Who is like God?” and is translated “Quis ut Deus?” in Latin.

My understanding is that Thomas Aquinas says the angels are beings of pure intellect, and make war through ideas. In Ainulindalë, the Ainur are waging war upon one another through their Music.

The Judaic view presented in Isaiah sounds to me strikingly like the story Tolkien presents in Ainulindalë: “above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; … I will make myself like the Most High.” Is this not what Melkor desires: to be not only greater than all the other Ainur, but to take what is theirs, to set himself before even Ilúvatar?

The Problem of Evil is an ancient one, often used in arguments against the existence of God. My first philosophy professor began his classes in introductory philosophy with it, and used it as a cudgel to beat us into atheists. If you are interested, here are four different views: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil) (a decent overview; agnostic at best (for both theists and atheists), leans atheist); The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (https://www.iep.utm.edu/evil-log/) (atheist); Peter Kreeft (http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm), professor of philosophy at Boston College, a Roman Catholic university (presumably close to Tolkien’s Catholic view); and the C.S. Lewis Institute (http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/webfm_send/636), presumably close to Lewis’ opinions around the time Tolkien wrote [i]The Lord of the Rings and perhaps also to Tolkien’s.

There is an associated philosophical argument or debate, Free Will (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will). The question of Free Will is not some silly, willy-nilly how-many-angels-can-dance-of-the-head-of-a-pin question, either: it goes straight to the heart of guilt and innocence, of predestination in both the religious sense (does God create some people just in order to damn them? John Calvin thought so) and in the scientific sense (talk to a neurosurgeon about this issue sometime, if you can find one that has the time and will agree to spend it with you: it’s likely he’s a “hard determinist”).

Along with these are a host of questions that follow in their train: Do we have souls? Do these souls continue to exist after our physical deaths? What becomes of us? These are deadly serious questions, and how you answer them determines in large part how you will live your life.

In Ainulindalë, Tolkien begins wrestling with the Problem of Evil and with Free Will. Did Ilúvatar not know that Melkor would rebel and become evil or not? Did Ilúvatar make Melkor for that purpose? or did Melkor (mis)use his free will to rebel against his Maker?

For anyone wrestling with these problems, I commend to you Pascal’s Wager (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager). Pascal was a brilliant mathematician, and his proposition is mathematically sound. What you do with it, if you look at it, is up to you, whether by Free Will or Hard Determinism.

[Earniel]

I thought the three themes were Arda itself, the Elves, and Men.
Well, since the last theme is apparently the Children of Ilúvatar, the Elves should be included in the last, which leaves the second one more ambiguous.

That sounds rather selfish on Melkor’s part: if you will, he is stealing from the other Ainur what is rightfully theirs, and attempting to steal from Ilúvatar what is rightfully His: namely, ultimate control of the Music.
But unlike the other Ainur, Melkor had a part in the other Ainur's skills from the start, where could that have come from if not from Ilùvatar? Melkor could not have acquired it on his own, he doesn't interact enough with the other Ainur to gain that understanding.

Is this not what Melkor desires: to be not only greater than all the other Ainur, but to take what is theirs, to set himself before even Ilúvatar?
Yes and no. Melkor certainly desires dominion, but not over the Ainur, and not over Ilúvatar. He descends into Arda with the others, it is Arda which he wants. The Void with Ilúvatar and his remaining Ainur brethren hold no interest for him. He does not which to rival Ilúvatar, but he wants to be like him: capable of creation as he sees fit, being beholden to none, being served and admired. But he does not seem to wish to rise above his own creator.

[Valandil]

Like Alcuin, I also see a re-telling/re-shaping of a Judeo-Christian Creation story in the Ainulindale. My understanding is that JRRT wanted to maintain the all-powerful Judeo-Christian God, but also include figures akin to pantheons of gods found in the Mythology of the Greeks/Norse/so many others. The Ainulindale - and the relationships established therein - was his solution.

In this vein, I DO see Melkor as a clear Satan-figure. Yes - he was blessed with great gifts. How he used them... was up to him.

I think it was JRRT's intent to show things this way. To make Melkor into a Satan-figure. I remember a quote by Christopher Tolkien about JRRT's later years - and some philosophical shifts he made. Almost as though he wanted to reconcile his earlier views and histories of Middle Earth with what he believed about Christianity/Christian theology.