Stranger, more wonderful animals?

[Curandir]

Just going through Sil again and I noticed that animals are mentioned that live in Aman, but not in Middle Earth. Are these things mentioned anywhere else? And what are they?

[Shadowfax]

I'm not sure what you mean. Does it just say, "animals"? or does it specify what kind? I haven't read the Sil in a while.;)

[Ñólendil]

Fëanor and his sons abode seldom in one place for long, but travelled far and wide upon the confines of Valinor, going even to the borders of the Dark and the cold shores of the Outer Sea, seeking the unknown. Often they were guests in the halls of Aulë; but Celegorm went rather to the house of Oromë, and there he got great knowledge of birds and beasts, and all their tongues he knew. For all living things that are or have been in the Kingdom of Arda, save only the fell and evil creatures of Melkor, lived then in the land of Aman; and there also were many other creatures that have not been seen upon Middle-earth, and perhaps never now shall be, since the fashion of the world has changed.

-- "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië"

[Curandir]

Thats the quote, sorry my reply has been so long in the offing, but I've been away from the "moot" for a while. As far as I know there are no other references to these animals, I just thought you guys might know. Thanks

[Ñólendil]

It's an intriguing idea, is it not? That'd be cool to see some of the strange and wonderful animals in any motion picture set in Valinor -- or animals the average person would not expect to find there, like Oliphaunts.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
It's an intriguing idea, is it not? That'd be cool to see some of the strange and wonderful animals in any motion picture set in Valinor -- or animals the average person would not expect to find there, like Oliphaunts.

Yes, very intriguing.

I also find it interesting that Tolkien apparently did not wholly rule the possibility of that these strange animals might eventually turn up in ME (I use the "perhaps" at the end of your quote as a basis for this thought). How would this be explained in terms of Tolkien´s views on "evolution" in ME?

[Ñólendil]

How would this be explained in terms of Tolkien´s views on "evolution" in ME?

I think maybe Tolkien did believe in some kind of significant genetic development in the human race, from their beginning to their form now. You can see hints of it in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring. Tolkien was always pushing the date of the Awakening of Men back, and one of the reasons, he indicated, was to allow for the development scientists believed occured. Men still awoke, but I think they looked different, much different. And the latest idea of Trolls we have -- and I don't know if Tolkien held on to it -- is that they were corruptions of the primitive Mannish form, dull and lumpish in nature (also from Myths Transformed).

But I don't know really what you are referring to. What has evolution got to do with it?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
I think maybe Tolkien did believe in some kind of significant genetic development in the human race, from their beginning to their form now. You can see hints of it in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring. Tolkien was always pushing the date of the Awakening of Men back, and one of the reasons, he indicated, was to allow for the development scientists believed occured. Men still awoke, but I think they looked different, much different. And the latest idea of Trolls we have -- and I don't know if Tolkien held on to it -- is that they were corruptions of the primitive Mannish form, dull and lumpish in nature (also from Myths Transformed).

But I don't know really what you are referring to. What has evolution got to do with it?

Simply, those animals were not in ME at the supposed time that your quote refers to. But they might possibly appear later. So how? They could not then come from Aman because it was closed off from ME. Perhaps by evolutionary forces then, animals of ME turning into new species. I am not sure at all if that line of reasoning could have been assumed by Tolkien? Perhaps, if we compare to the development of Men then, that seems to indicate some measure of evolution?

[Ñólendil]

Simply, those animals were not in ME at the supposed time that your quote refers to. But they might possibly appear later. So how? They could not then come from Aman because it was closed off from ME. Perhaps by evolutionary forces then, animals of ME turning into new species. I am not sure at all if that line of reasoning could have been assumed by Tolkien? Perhaps, if we compare to the development of Men then, that seems to indicate some measure of evolution?

Where do you get the idea they weren't in Middle-earth at that time?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Where do you get the idea they weren't in Middle-earth at that time?

Perhaps I misunderstand this line from your original quote:

and there also were many other creatures that have not been seen upon Middle-earth, and perhaps never now shall be, since the fashion of the world has changed

Do you mean Tolkien meant they were there but not seen, or what?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Where do you get the idea they weren't in Middle-earth at that time? Hey Dylan, be nice to Kirinki. He's my buddy.:D

[Ñólendil]

Do you mean Tolkien meant they were there but not seen, or what?

The words are, as you noticed, "there were also", "also" is used after the quote states "For all living things that are or have been in the Kingdom of Arda ... lived then in the land of Aman". In other words: all living things that are in Arda, or ever have been, were in Valinor, but there were also creatures living in Valinor that we have never seen. These unseen creatures are unseen because they have never lived in Middle-earth.

So in Valinor there are all the creatures we do know about, and many creatures we do not.

[Lollypopgurl]

If they ever make a movie out of the Silmarillion, they betta include some animals. :D

[Ñólendil]

Here, here!

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
The words are, as you noticed, "there were also", "also" is used after the quote states "For all living things that are or have been in the Kingdom of Arda ... lived then in the land of Aman". In other words: all living things that are in Arda, or ever have been, were in Valinor, but there were also creatures living in Valinor that we have never seen. These unseen creatures are unseen because they have never lived in Middle-earth.

So in Valinor there are all the creatures we do know about, and many creatures we do not.


I don’t entirely agree with that interpretation, Ñolendil.

I believe it is likely to mean that, since the marring of the world by Morgoth, (when he destroyed the Two Lamps), those species became extinct in Middle Earth, but survived in Aman.

[Ñólendil]

I think that "and now never shall be, since the world has changed" is rather meant to mean "there is not now any way for those unseen creatures to come to Middle-earth and be seen". I don't think they ever lived here.

[Curandir]

I agree Ñólendil, I got the distinct impression that said creatures did not and will not ever appear in ME. Which brings us back to the orideonal question "What were they?" Perhaps Tolkien just wanted to leave it ambiguous for the readers imagination, but that hardly seems like Tolkien.

[Ñólendil]

I think it does sound like Tolkien, and awful lot like Tolkien. Some things he just didn't explain, and on purpose, think of the fate of Shelob, and the "nameless things" in the depths of Mória, think of Caradhras, and Bombadil, and Goldberry, and the Questioner of Barad-dûr, and many others. I think there was quite a bit Tolkien didn't care to clarify or explain.

[Kirinki54]

The key point is still that Tolkien used the word "perhaps".