Valar's Love for the Eldar

[Maedhros]

It is obvious from the Ainulindalë that the Valar had definitely a love for the Eldar:
And so it was that as this vision of the World was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty.
Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour.
But they didn't love all of the Eldar in the same way.
Manwë and Varda loved most the Vanyar, the Fair Elves; but the Noldor were beloved of Aulë, and he and his people came often among them. Great became their knowledge and their skill; yet even greater was their thirst for more knowledge, and in many things they soon surpassed their teachers.
When many years had passed, Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of the Noldor and of Finwë their king. Who grieved at their long sundering from the Teleri, and besought him to bring them to Aman, if they would come. And most of them proved now willing indeed; but great was the grief of Ossë when Ulmo returned to the coasts of Beleriand, to bear them away to Valinor
All quotes are from the Published Silmarillion
It is interesting to note that while Aulë loved the Noldor the most, he didn't helped them after their rebellion as Ulmo did. Now, it's something to wonder at.

[Ñólendil]

It is indeed. Though few of them realized it, the friend of the Exiled Ñoldor among the Valar was definitely Ulmo. Interesting thoughts to ponder, Heru Maitimo Russandol.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Ulmo at one point says that his his particular role as envisioned by the music was to at times gainsay the official policies of the valar (like the ban of the noldoror ) to the extent that he could with out out being in rebellion.

[Sween]

another thing i have allways thought was that they marveled at the life at which eru gave them. the elves were something beyond the craft of all the valar. Its like us marveling at a painting by some artist safe in the knoledge we could never achive that? if you know what i mean?

[Maedhros]

Interesting thoughts to ponder, Heru Maitimo Russandol.
Why, thanks, but you forgot Nelyafinwë;)
another thing i have allways thought was that they marveled at the life at which eru gave them. the elves were something beyond the craft of all the valar.
Yes, it was stated in the Ainulidalë.
If you look in the Fall of Gondolin, you would see that Aulë was more revered than Ulmo, even in Gondolin. I wonder why?

[Ñólendil]

Why, thanks, but you forgot Nelyafinwë

You do not call yourself Nelfin! I was only going for the "Maedhros" equivalent.

[Rían]

ummm, what does all that mean?? :confused:

[Ñólendil]

Maedhros' name in Valinor was Nelyafinwe Maitimo Russandol.

Neylafinwe = "Third Finwe (in succession)". The first "Finwe" being Finwe, the second Finwe being Curufinwe (Feanor), and the son of the second Finwe being Maedhros.

Maitimo = "Well shaped (one)". He was of exceptional bodily form, even for an Elf (a real catch, ladies and gentlemen, if you ignore the unfortunate business of his bleak fate and treacherous oath).

Russandol = "Copper top". Maedhros had the red-brown hair of his mother's family.

"Maedhros" is an adaptation of "Maitimo" and "Russandol" into Sindarin.

Heru = "lord".

So I said, "Interesting thoughts to ponder, Heru Maitimo Russandol", i.e., "Interesting thoughts to ponder, Lord Maedhros."

Maedhros, the poster, being delightfully informed and one who informs with delight, reminded me of the name his father gave him: Nelyafinwe, which I excluded from my sentence.

I, however, being one who also informs with delight, pointed out that I was only using the Quenya names of the character that correspond to his user-name: Maedhros. "Nelyafinwe" has no linguistic relation to "Maedhros", as Entmoot's Maedhros knows well. And now, the impressive ending: ;)

[Rían]

Well, I've heard of Nelyafinwe, but not of Maitimo or Russandol. Those names must be in a HoME book that I don't have yet :(- I don't recall seeing them in Morgoth's Ring.

But, in the words of one of our most beloved hobbits, "Thag you very buch" for the info! Very interesting!

BTW, Ñólendil, seen any scary horses lately? ;)

[Ñólendil]

Yor very belcum.

The HoMe book is The Peoples of Middle-earth, in "The Shibboleth of Fëanor". There you will find the Quenderin names of all the sons of Fëanor, which out of sheer, absurd arrogance and a lack of things to do I list here:

Nelyafinwe Maitimo Russandol [Maedhros]
Canafinwe Macalaure [Maglor]
Turcafinwe Tyelcormo [Celegorm]
Curufinwe Atarince [Curufin]
Morifinwe Carnistir [Caranthir]
Nityafinwe Ambarussa [Amros]
Telufinwe Ambarussa (also called Ambarto and Umbarto) [Amros]

Of course there is no good reason for posting this, and enough of you know it already. I don't care :) If anyone was wondering, I realise what form of the names I have given the youngest sons of Feanor. It is in accordance with a later idea put forth by Tolkien. Nityafinwe was called Amros in Beleriand. Telufinwe was the first of the Sons to die and did not live long enough to change his name, but he in memory was also called Amros.

[Maedhros]

I tip my hat to Ñóledil, he really knows his stuff.:)
BTW, what is the proper form of the Noldor: Noldor or Ñoldor, I have seen both.

[Rían]

I imagine that Ñólendil, he of the 2 diacritical marks, will also add Ngoldor. Am I right, Ñólendil?

BTW, Maedhros, your avatar is very interesting. Who is the artist, and is it a part of a larger picture? The story of Maedhros' torment, and Fingon the valiant saving Maedhros, is so moving.

BTW #2 - Ngolendil, did you ever see my post on how to work on improving the pronunciation of the initial Ng sound in the "Is Manwë Japanese" thread?

[Maedhros]

BTW, Maedhros, your avatar is very interesting. Who is the artist, and is it a part of a larger picture? The story of Maedhros' torment, and Fingon the valiant saving Maedhros, is so moving.
Unfortunately I don't know the artist. The avatar was given to me as a gift from a friend in another forum. The only odd thing that I find is that as Ñóledil has already said, Maedhros had red-brown hair which is not depicted in the picture.:(

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Unfortunately I don't know the artist. The avatar was given to me as a gift from a friend in another forum. The only odd thing that I find is that as Ñóledil has already said, Maedhros had red-brown hair which is not depicted in the picture.:( The artist is Ted Nasmith. The picture your avatar is taken from is in my Sil edition. Nasmith is good, but not accurate about hair colour etc. He has made a picture of Finrod's first meeting with Men, in which Finrod is dark-haired.

If you look in the Fall of Gondolin, you would see that Aulë was more revered than Ulmo, even in Gondolin. I wonder why?It's not so strange imo. Aulë was a master of crafts and the Noldor learned much from him. They had a common desire; to create things new and fair. Even if Aulë had abandoned the Noldor, and Ulmo had not, they didn't desire Ulmo's protection.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sween
Its like us marveling at a painting by some artist safe in the knoledge we could never achive that? if you know what i mean? Well put Sween. That's exactly how I think about it as well.

[Ñólendil]

I tip my hat to Ñóledil, he really knows his stuff.
BTW, what is the proper form of the Noldor: Noldor or Ñoldor, I have seen both.

No more than you, it would seem.

"Noldor" is the pronunciation of the word (and others with the initial ñ sound) in the Third Age, mainly by Men. The Men of the Third Age who spoke Quenya were lazy, and the initial ñ (ng) sound was reduced to n. In the Elder Days, it was Ñoldor.

The Ñoldor themselves of course wrote in Tengwar -- and they had one tengwa that represented our "ng" -- so a little bit of how you spell an Elvish word depends on taste, (though most really depends on Tolkien's taste, as his consistent spellings are widely regard as canon). You don't have to write "Quendi", you can write "Kwendi", if you like, but "Quendi" -- so say most -- is more pleasing to look at. In some cases, it's really only the sound achieved that counts (you can use "c" or "k", it doesn't really matter, only maybe you might prefer one to the other because of their look). So with "Ñoldor" or "Ñolendil". You can write "Ngoldor" or "Ngolendil" if you like, but the "N" with the tilde over is more pleasing (if you ask me and many others).

So, when talking about the Noldor in general, use "N" or "Ñ" as you prefer. When talking about the Ñoldor of the Elder Days, it makes more sense to me to use "Ñ", but use what you like; when talking about the Noldor of the fading years, it makes more sense to me to use "N", but use what you like.

BTW #2 - Ngolendil, did you ever see my post on how to work on improving the pronunciation of the initial Ng sound in the "Is Manwë Japanese" thread?

I believe so, but I don't remember it very well.

[Rían]

It must not have been very profound, then :D Actually, it helped me quite a lot, so I put it in in case it might help others.

Thanks for the art info, Artanis! I'll have to pop over to a bookstore sometime soon and see if I can look at some of his work. I really like what I have seen so far. Too bad he's not v. accurate about hair colors, etc., because they are an important part to me, esp. because they indicate an elf's parentage in many cases.

But the really big question, Maedhros, is: do you get the diacritical marks in your posts by typing in the alt-number codes, or do you cut and paste, like I have to, because I have a really irritating keyboard? (you don't have to answer! It was just an issue for several of us, and it got very frustrating, so I joke about it now)

[Maedhros]

But the really big question, Maedhros, is: do you get the diacritical marks in your posts by typing in the alt-number codes, or do you cut and paste, like I have to, because I have a really irritating keyboard? (you don't have to answer! It was just an issue for several of us, and it got very frustrating, so I joke about it now)
Well, for the circumflex accent, I have to use the alt keys, but for the diacritic one ´, I use the keyboard. Letters such as ñ Ñ, are familiar to me, so I have no problems. The dieresis ¨is not a big problem because I use the keyboard. Signs such as ð, Æ, æ, § I use the alt function.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Letters such as ñ Ñ, are familiar to me, so I have no problems.

Is Spanish the "first language" of your keyboard :) (or of you)?

[Artanis]

A bit off topic, are we? :rolleyes: :) Perhaps you should start a diacritical marks thread?

[Rían]

*checks thread name* whoops, sorry! I always get carried away when talking about diacritical marks! I'll stop now (except I'm still curious if Maedhros has a Spanish language keyboard....) :)

And I really like Sween's comment, too - that's the feeling that I get - that the Valar sometimes just gaze at the Eldar in wonder and amazement, really enjoying that special aspect of Iluvatar's creation that they looked forward to seeing for so long.

[Maedhros]

From The Book of Lost Tales I: The Tale of the Sun and Moon
Strange is to tell that albeit Aulë had loved the Noldoli above all the Elves and had taught them all they knew and given them great stores of wealth, now was his heart most turned against them, for he deemed them ingrate in that they had bidden him no farewell, and for their ill deeds among the Solosimpi he was grieved to the heart. "Speak not," said he, "the name of the Noldoli ever again unto me," and albeit he gave still his love to those few faithful Gnomes who remained still about his halls, yet did he name them thereafter "Eldar".
Solosimpi = Teleri
I know that Bolt is not canon, but I thought that this passage was interesting. In the Published Silmarillion or in Home, I don't remember ever reading something like it.

[Artanis]

Do you think Aulë also turned against those of the Noldor who remained in Aman?

[Maedhros]

Aulë in bolt, was not turned against those of the Noldoli who stayed in Valinórë.
What I find interesting, is that Manwë, while stating that he was not going to help the exiles, he was the one that sent Thorondor to help Fingon in rescuing Maedhros, in what is the greatest deed in the Silmarillion.:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Aulë in bolt, was not turned against those of the Noldoli who stayed in Valinórë.
What I find interesting, is that Manwë, while stating that he was not going to help the exiles, he was the one that sent Thorondor to help Fingon in rescuing Maedhros, in what is the greatest deed in the Silmarillion.:) It says in the Sil, that the Valar still had pitty for the exiled elves.