The Trojan War

[Pippin Skywalker]

I recently wrote a paper on the Trojan War and am generally fascinated by this subject. I also have just about finished the Iliad. Does anyone else have in interest in ancient history, Troy and Mycenaen Greek? :D


If you are interested in Troy there is this GREAT book called
"In Search Of The Trojan War" by Michael Wood. It had a lot information, pictures and time charts.

[Khadrane]

My school's mascot is a Trojan.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Pippin Skywalker
Does anyone else have in interest in ancient history, Troy and Mycenaen Greek? :D

Definately! Have you read the Odyssee yet? It's a bit the sequal of the iliad.

[Finglas]

Who's translation are you reading? I've heard bits of Alexander Pope's. It's a great translation but I cant find a copy of it. I've also started studying Koine Greek. It's actually not too hard and it's really interesting.

[Pippin Skywalker]

I'm reading the Odyssey right now! Well...not this minute...but you hobbits know what I mean! :D

There is actually a new movie being made about the Trojan War and Bradd Pitt will be Achilles with Eric Bana as Hector. Should be interesting!


For those of you who don't know the outside of Homer History here is what I have gleaned:

1. Troy is a REAL place. It is a ruined city on the mound of Hisarlik in the region Canakkale, Turkey.

2. There were actually 9 cities of Troy! Nine archaeological levels were found. The earliest settlement was about 3000 BC (Troy I)
and the last city was the Roman city of Troy. Homer's citadel is believed to be Troy VI (aprox. 1200 BC). This date corresponds to the traditional date of the Trojan War.

3. Charles Mclaren a 19th century Scottish Professor made the first assumptions and guesses that Troy was on the Mound of Hisarlik. At that time and before there were many places that were mistaken for Homer's city but really were not it. Mclaren's theory was explored and used to find the city by Frank Calvert a englishman living in Turkey. Many give credit to Heinrich Schlieman for discovering Troy or "Ilium" but he owed much in fact probably all to Calvert, who was the first to do a minor excavation.


phew...that is enough lessons for today my dear hobbits! :)

[The Lady of Ithilien]

(I love Gimli's quote in the sig line!)

I read The Odyssey a long time ago and don't remember too much of it now, though the part about his son (Telumechtar - ? spelling) going to look for him was very moving, and even now sometimes when I see a sunrise, Homer's "wine-dark seas" come to mind.

The Iliad also came to mind recently when I read a quote from it at the end of Tom Marshall's The Price of Exit:We do have Prayers . . . you know . . . Prayers . . . for forgiveness . . . And the prayers trail after . . . trying to heal the wounds
Phoenix, the Charioteer, in Book IX (translation by Robert Fagles) "Phoenix" was the call sign of C Company, 158th Aviation Battalion, 101st Airborne Division, Airmobile, in Vietnam. Marshall's book is about that period and group.

Inspired by this thread, I'm going to try to do it right -- read first The Iliad and then The Odyssey

[HobbitChick88]

Originally posted by Khadrane
My school's mascot is a Trojan.


Haha that's cool mine is too! :D

[Lief Erikson]

It would be better luck to have a Greek mascot.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
I read The Odyssey a long time ago and don't remember too much of it now, though the part about his son (Telumechtar - ? spelling) going to look for him was very moving, and even now sometimes when I see a sunrise, Homer's "wine-dark seas" come to mind.

Eh, I think your head is still in Middle earth. :D Telemachos is by my knowledge Ullysses' son. (unless of course his name -just like his dad's- got translated differently in English :rolleyes: ) But I read the name Telumektar somewhere in BoLT. :)

[Draken]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
It would be better luck to have a Greek mascot.

Good point. And what does a Trojan look like, exactly?

Am I right is half-remembering that the Trojan War-era city of Troy DOES indeed show archaelogical evidence of having been violently destroyed?

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Eh, I think your head is still in Middle earth. Telemachos is by my knowledge Ullysses' son. He-he! So's my heart, Eärniel. Telémakhos it is, in my copy of The Odyssey, Fitzgerald's translation.But I read the name Telumektar somewhere in BoLT THANK YOU!!! Did a quick Web search and discovered a discussion of Tolkien's stars, which I've been searching for for some time: http://users.cybercity.dk/~bkb1782/tolkien/starsframe.html in which we learn that Telumektar was the son of Tulkas, who as far as we know didn't get lost for 20 years on his way back to Aman after the War of Wrath :) , and is linked with the constellation Orion.

[Earniel]

Middle earth is a good place to be. ;) So Telemachos is written with a 'k' in your translation. Interesting.

[IronParrot]

Has anyone here read "Troy", the modern retelling by Adele Geras? I haven't tried it, but I've heard it's good, and it's already been optioned for a translation to the silver screen...

[Sylvee Estel]

We just finished reading the Odyssey in English. I really liked it. The version in our reading books was really abridged though. Oh well. We are watching the movie now, I like it too.

[Khadrane]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
It would be better luck to have a Greek mascot.
Yeah, I know. I've always wondered why we were named after a bunch of gullible idiots.

[IronParrot]

Heh... this thread reminds me of the Simpsons.
"From now on, whenever anyone gets wood, they'll think of Trojans"

[Pippin Skywalker]

Someone asked what Trojans look like. Well Troy is located in Turkey so the Trojans were Turkish.

I'm halfway through the Odyssey and have read the Iliad and from what I've read I think the former was a better "written" work. I think Homer got better as he grew older and the Odyssey was produced out of more experiance and when he had gotten better in his craft.

I'm reading the Robert Fagles translation...it's supposed to be a really good one. Someday I'd like to read Pope's since it is so acclaimed.

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Some news about a movie based on the Iliad!

Wolfgang Peterson is to Direct "Troy" about Homer's ill fated city. So far the cast has Brad Pitt as Achilles, Eric Bana as Hector and Orlando Bloom (Legolas) is looking like he might get the part of Paris. This is a landmark I think because this book is rarely adapted to the screen probably because of it's difficult style. But wow! Come 2004 this film should be in theaters!

Any thoughts and further casting ideas?

[IronParrot]

Yes, like I said earlier, the film of "Troy" is based on the Adele Geras novel that hit the bestseller lists last year. I haven't read it but it's a retelling in modern prose.

As far as Homer's works go, I also have the Fagles translations... never even tried anyone else's.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Fear not that ye have died for naught;
We’ve learned the lesson that ye taught
In Flanders’ Fields.” This isn't specifically about the Trojan War, though certainly dealing with the memory of the warrior dead is applicable; anyway, this quote in your sig line stuck with me. It seems so bittersweet today, looking back at those words over what must be the bloodiest century ever. What did we learn?

Just now I came across what might be an answer: If you are able, save for them a place inside of you,
and save one backward glance when you are leaving,
for the places they can no longer go.
Be not ashamed to say you loved them,
though you may or may not have always.
Take what they have left and what they have taught you with their dying and keep it with your own, and in that time when men decide and feel safe to call the war insane, take one moment to embrace those gentle heroes you left behind.

Major Michael Davis O'Donnell
January 1, 1970
Dak To, VietnamIt's hard to find the exact attribution for this -- as a rule only the last phrase from "...and in that time" on is quoted, but this was the most complete reference to it a quick Google search found today.

I suppose the heroes returning from Troy would have liked that, too. Some things never change.

[IronParrot]

"I suppose the heroes returning from Troy would have liked that, too. Some things never change."
And that, mon amie, is why we study history.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by IronParrot
And that, mon amie, is why we study history.
True enough. Now if only we would learn from it. I think that, in a way, we have but we somehow always still seem to fail the test.

I always thought it a little ironic that the war with Troy brought no one any good. Agamemnon got killed rather disrespectfully. Diomedes was driven from his land when he came home. Achiles and Ajas and many more died. It took Odysseus (Ulysses) 20 years to get home again. It's pretty obvious that Priamus and his family didn't get anything good out of it etc.....If the iliad teaches one lesson I think it is that in war there are only losers.

[IronParrot]

"If the iliad teaches one lesson I think it is that in war there are only losers."
... and that said losers were fighting over a woman. :)

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Now if only we would learn from it.We do, but according to the measure of what we are, which in its reality is not always pleasing to our sense of what we should be.

It isn't that Homer's heroes died: it is how they individually lived and fought and died that we hold so dear to our hearts. And certainly they would do it all over again without regret, if they knew it would make their names famous even several thousands of years later.

The interesting truth about humanity is that most of us will always embrace a Homer over a Siegfried Sassoon (see http://www.bartleby.com/people/Sassoon.html ).And that, mon amie, is why we study history. Ah, Perroquet de Fer, I fear that we really study it only to wield it the better as a powerful weapon in our own wars of domination, whether national, professional or personal. Ajax's selfish suicide is refreshingly direct and honest in comparison to some of the tactics used by the civilized, educated, and similarly selfish world today (as always) to establish the Greater (read 'its own') Good.

No, give me a 'historian' like Homer or Tolkien, whose lies rather bring us face to face with that part of our actual history we are unable to face directly: its truth, base as well as noble, in ourselves.