Where the Teleri Ships Irreplaceable?

[Maedhros]

When Olwë refuses to help Fëanor and the Noldor he states:
From the Published Silmarillion:
But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not that craft from the Noldor, but from the Lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and our daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Fëanor son of Finwë, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.
Why couldn't they make new ships, were they lazy? Did they suddenly forgot how to do it? Didn't they have raw materials? :confused:

[Earniel]

Why couldn't Feänor make more silmarils? I think that the Teleri lacked something essential to make new ships as wonderful as the older. Be it knowledge or magic. Even Yavanna couldn't remake her trees. I guess some things can only be made once.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
When Olwë refuses to help Fëanor and the Noldor he states:
From the Published Silmarillion:

Why couldn't they make new ships, were they lazy? Did they suddenly forgot how to do it? Didn't they have raw materials? :confused: Perhaps the White Tembers were rare and they could not get them again, and if the sails were woven by hand as well, then they could not duplicate them exactly to those ships. It would be like trying to reproduce by hand a great work of art.

[Maedhros]

Why couldn't Feänor make more silmarils? I think that the Teleri lacked something essential to make new ships as wonderful as the older. Be it knowledge or magic. Even Yavanna couldn't remake her trees. I guess some things can only be made once.
The interesting thing is that the Silmarils and trees were made by single individuals, while the Ships were made by a "group" of elves. Surely, they hadn't forgotten how to made them.
sails were woven by hand as well, then they could not duplicate them exactly to those ships. It would be like trying to reproduce by hand a great work of art.
I don't think that the sails of the ships were exactly the same. I think that it's sad that when the Teleri reached Valinor, they stopped making ships. Why couldn't they keep perfecting their art? Were there no inventors left among them, was their desire to make new things gone? Did they ever had such desire in the first place?

[Artanis]

In another thread (Turgon's folly) it is mentioned that the Elves put parts of their own spirit into their creative work, like the Silmarils and the three rings. We may assume this also is valid for the Teleri and the building of their ships. Then it is not a wonder that these great works could not be repeated.

[Earniel]

If I remember correctly I believe Ulmo or Ossë taught the Teleri how to build those ships. Maybe the Teleri could not built ships equal in beauty to the first ones without their help.

I don't think the Teleri perfected their shipbuilding art. To me they seemed pleased enough with the ships they had.

[Radagast The Brown]

could be that each ship of the Teleri is defferent, and they don't want the Noldor to destroy their ships. And I bet they didn't want to help the Noldor to rebel the Valar.

[Maedhros]

could be that each ship of the Teleri is defferent
If each ship is different, then why not keep making different ships? Why did they lost their love of making ships?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
If each ship is different, then why not keep making different ships? Why did they lost their love of making ships? I think it is stated that the Noldorin Elves were the crafty ones that loved making things. The Teleri were lovers of the sea and great minstrels. Because of their love of the sea, they built a fleet of great ships the like of which they could not make again according to them. Perhaps they had no reason to continue this art since they lived apart from the Noldor and Vanyar on the shores of Alqualonde and had what they needed to serve their purpose, and did not anticipate any future events that would have required them to have more then this.

[Sween]

How big were these ships they must of been pretty big.

Maybe this is one of these things where it wouldnt make literary sence for them to say you cannot take out ships for we will be able to make some more :confused: wouldnt make much of a story if it all made sence

[markedel]

I think sub-creation is supposed to be an act that uses up part of oneself-the ring is part of Sauron, the ships are part of the Teleri-destroying them actually ruined part of the teleri

[Rían]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
could be that each ship of the Teleri is defferent

I like that idea, Radagast - each one is like a unique work of art. I can't picture elves mass-producing ships, can you? I'm sure that they would all be engineered really well, they would just have different styles.

[Maedhros]

each one is like a unique work of art.
They why would the new ones wouldn't be other works of art of the same level as those created first.

[markedel]

They are like the silmarils-sub-creative works, and therefore unreproducable.

[Maedhros]

They are like the silmarils-sub-creative works, and therefore unreproducable
The silmarils were created by a single individual, whereas the Ships were made by a group of Elves. So those elves somehow lost their creative craft altoghether, or some of them.

[Lief Erikson]

One difficulty, Maedhros, is you're assuming ship construction similar to ship construction on the Planet Earth. If it was ship construction as it is here, I think you'd be right. But we would never speak of our ships' destruction as they did of theirs. Remember, it was called "The rape of the ships of the Teleri." We wouldn't call the burning of our ships a rape. Calling it this implies that it is something more than mere wood and craftsmanship that is being destroyed.

Throughout Tolkien's writing in Middle Earth and Valinor, you find personality and life in inanimate objects. Gandalf and Aragorn don't like speaking of certain things at night, and that isn't because they expect some evil creature is around. Weapons, like Túrin's sword, can speak and have will. The ships of the Teleri, I believe, have the same sort of power. The Teleri created the ships once, in one work of splendor.

I think that life is assumed in the ships of the Teleri, and they were incredibly precious to their builders. It was one glorious act that cannot be repeated. If it was reconstructible, it would diminish its glory.

I don't think that there is any physical reason that is stated in the books that denies the possibility to reconstruct such things. But, like the Rings of Power, they cannot be reproduced. It is something that shines for a while, and which must be protected if it won't fall into darkness.

[Rían]

I like your summary, Lief! That's exactly what I wanted to say, but I couldn't put it into words. You did so, and very well, IMHO :)

[Keith K]

Very eloquently stated Lief Erikson. I agree with your asessment.

[Lief Erikson]

Thanks RÃ*an and Keith K :).

[Elanor Gamgee]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
One difficulty, Maedhros, is you're assuming ship construction similar to ship construction on the Planet Earth. If it was ship construction as it is here, I think you'd be right. But we would never speak of our ships' destruction as they did of theirs. Remember, it was called "The rape of the ships of the Teleri." We wouldn't call the burning of our ships a rape. Calling it this implies that it is something more than mere wood and craftsmanship that is being destroyed.

Throughout Tolkien's writing in Middle Earth and Valinor, you find personality and life in inanimate objects. Gandalf and Aragorn don't like speaking of certain things at night, and that isn't because they expect some evil creature is around. Weapons, like Túrin's sword, can speak and have will. The ships of the Teleri, I believe, have the same sort of power. The Teleri created the ships once, in one work of splendor.

I think that life is assumed in the ships of the Teleri, and they were incredibly precious to their builders. It was one glorious act that cannot be repeated. If it was reconstructible, it would diminish its glory.

I don't think that there is any physical reason that is stated in the books that denies the possibility to reconstruct such things. But, like the Rings of Power, they cannot be reproduced. It is something that shines for a while, and which must be protected if it won't fall into darkness.
Wonderful reasoning, I totally agree with the previous posters! :)
I would like to add up a few thoughts.
In general the theme of (sub)creation and creator's rights and responsibilities seems to be the central in Tolkien's writing. I believe, Telerin ships also have a very strong symbolic meaning, alongside with the Silmarills and even the Light of the Trees. There are three creators here, Yavanna (who created the Light of the Trees), Feanor (who created Silmarills) and the Teleri (as a group) who created the ships. What is special in the situation is that no one of the creators is able to repeat their creative deed again. For example, Yavanna says:
Even for those who are mightiest under Iluvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Ea I can do so never again. Yet had I but a little of that light I could recall life to the Trees, ere their roots decay; and then our hurt should be healed and the malice of Melkor be confounded.
However, Feanor denies Yavanna's request, even though it means that whole Arda would be denied light. This is what he says:
For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman."
The intensity of Feanor's feelings is evident; to part from his creations for him equals immediate death.

Maedhros has already quoted Olwe's words about the ships, but I would like to recall this quote again:
But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not that craft from the Noldor, but from the Lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and our daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Feanor son of Finwe, these are to us as the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.
I believe, these quotes can lead to several important conclusions.
First, creative process is a great equaliser. Yavanna, Feanor and the Teleri have very similar feelings about their creations. Bearing in mind, that the ultimate creator is Iluvatar, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that an act of creation equals creator (be it Ainu, Elf, or Man) to the One.
Second, I believe, it's about creator's right and responsibility. IMHO Tolkien hints that the creator, and creator only, has any right over his creation. No one tried to force Feanor to unlock the Silmarills, even though the matter concerned a grave danger for the whole Arda.
It is interesting to compare, how Feanor himself behaves in a similar situation. Although the Teleri make their feelings about the ships quite clear, Feanor not only insists, he kills his fellow-Elves to seize the result of their creative process! He, if anyone, ought to have known how a creator feels about the results of his work. I believe that Feanor's actions, by contrast, were a wicked act of ultimate selfishness. No wonder that he was permanently denied re-embodiment by Iluvatar himself.
Just my two cents ;)

[Ithildin55]

:) Suilad, Elanor, mellon nÃ*n.
Interesting discussion here and some good points brought out IMO. I had not previously noticed that about Fëanor ruthlessly taking and then destroying the creations of the Teleri while selfishly denying the benefit of his creations to all of Arda.

I think the concept of the ships being one-of-a-kind creations is a good one too. In our world, there were lots of tall ships, but only one Cutty Sark, only one Flying Cloud, etc. A painter could paint a masterpiece, and if it were destroyed, he could still paint more pictures, but that particular masterpiece would be gone forever, it could not be duplicated. I think the Teleri could and did build more ships, but they could not duplicate the original ones as each one was unique.

Ithildin

[Elanor Gamgee]

Suilad Ithildin,
Great to meet you here!
(A-hem, I think I ought to expand my Sindarin vocabulary... somewhat ;))
IMHO you are raising very interesting points about irreplaceable creations. Indeed, what holds more value - life of creator or the irreplaceable things created? Feanor obviously valued Teleri far below their ships...

[Maedhros]

It is interesting to compare, how Fëanor himself behaves in a similar situation. Although the Teleri make their feelings about the ships quite clear, Fëanor not only insists, he kills his fellow-Elves to seize the result of their creative process! He, if anyone, ought to have known how a creator feels about the results of his work. I believe that Fëanor's actions, by contrast, were a wicked act of ultimate selfishness.
The Teleri are not without their faults. They deny the Ñoldor help by lending or using their ships as a Ferry system to carry them to ME. It was the Ñoldor who helped them when they came to Valinor to built their houses.
When you think about the fact that Elves can be reborn, then the slaying of elves is not that bad because they can actually return to Arda (althought I gather that the experience is not pleasing). I often wondered about the Teleri in Valinor. They had made their ships, they live a life of peace, they were not going to do anything else in their lives.
The cool thing about Fëanor is that no matter if it was an elf, maiar or Vala, he was willing to do anything to avenge his father and regain his Silmarils.
No wonder that he was permanently denied reembodiment by Ilúvatar himself.
Where is that written? I thought that Fëanor, according to the second Prophecy of Mandos was going to return and open his Silmarils for Yavanna (Palúrien) to remake the trees in Arda Healed.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Maedhros
The Teleri are not without their faults. They deny the Ñoldor help by lending or using their ships as a Ferry system to carry them to ME.

It seems to me that discussing this belongs in another thread- as a matter of a fact, I think a thread was made to discuss that subject.

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Feanor obviously valued Teleri far below their ships...

I think he didn't. He was, as Ithildin pointed out, extremely selfish and enamored of his own work. His arrogance is absolutely appalling (Even if it does make him more interesting :)). His character has a firm resolve about it, as you say, Maehdros, but I think it's completely logical that Ilúvatar would punish him for his behavior.

Feanor wanted the ships for transport, to achieve his own ends. He was willing to destroy anything that impeded his will from being done on this issue, and because of that he destroyed the Teleri. He didn't care for either the Teleri or their ships, as is evidenced by the fact that he burned them after they reached land :mad: .

[Kirinki54]

I think the answer to the question is actually contained in the opening post (although several posters have already expanded on it in constructive ways): the Teleri refers to "the work of our hearts".
Like Elven love between man and woman, it was never substituted.
The ships were probably also unique creations, not only work of heart but also work of art.
The ships were also so closely related to their particular Teleri brand of Elvishness that they identified strongly with them.
I would hesitate to assume the ships were animated, but I do think they took on a sort of personality to their masters and that they in return loved them. Hence the use of the term "rape".

BTW hello Elanor Gamgee and Ithildin55 from Kirinki54! :)

[Elanor Gamgee]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
It seems to me that discussing this belongs in another thread- as a matter of a fact, I think a thread was made to discuss that subject.
This is true. I apologise for drifting off-topic and maybe repeating things already said by another posters; still, I believe I owe Maedhros an answer. I shall try to be brief.
Originally posted by Maedhros
The Teleri are not without their faults. They deny the Ñoldor help by lending or using their ships as a Ferry system to carry them to ME. It was the Ñoldor who helped them when they came to Valinor to built their houses.
When you think about the fact that Elves can be reborn, then the slaying of elves is not that bad because they can actually return to Arda (althought I gather that the experience is not pleasing). I often wondered about the Teleri in Valinor. They had made their ships, they live a life of peace, they were not going to do anything else in their lives.
The cool thing about Fëanor is that no matter if it was an elf, maiar or Vala, he was willing to do anything to avenge his father and regain his Silmarils.
The point I tried to make was that Teleri were under no obligation to aid Feanor. As you yourself and Lief Erikson point out, Feanor's desire to come to Middle-earth was caused by entirely personal reasons. Whether to help him in that or not was up to Teleri to decide. Since they had not been cozened by Morgoth, and still kept reverence to the Valar, they denied the ships. Again, these were their creations and their right.
What I see as Feanor's biggest fault is the fact that he coersed the Teleri, denying their rights and their free will. The fact that Elves are immortal does not matter, IMHO. Feanor was himself immortal; however, he had refused to surrender the Silmarils under this very pretext - it would have caused his death. However, he killed the Teleri without remorse, in order to achieve his personal objectives. This is what I call selfish.
BTW, Tolkien considered coersion of an incarnate's free will the biggest "sin" that could be committed, and the ultimate cause of Morgoth's and Sauron's fall.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Where is that written? I thought that Fëanor, according to the second Prophecy of Mandos was going to return and open his Silmarils for Yavanna (Palúrien) to remake the trees in Arda Healed.
It depends upon what version of the Quenta Silmarillion you prefer. ;) From Christopher's notes to The Later Quenta Silmarillion:
Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos. [This was JRRT's text. Christopher's comment follows - E.G.]
The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V.333) had now therefore definitely disappeared.
Morgoth's Ring, HoME X (1993), The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p. 203-204.
Later on, in Athrabeth Finrod ah Adreth Tolkien developed his ideas. As he wrote in Note 7 to Athrabeth:
It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin; [19] it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition. Morgoth's Ring, HoME X (1993), Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, p. 342
Further clarification is given in editorial note 19 to the same Athrabeth:
"The myth that appeares at the end of the Silmarillion": in so far as the reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V.333, §§31-2), the Prophecy of Mandos. Ibid., p. 359
As for the Arda Healed, in Athrabeth Tolkien seemed to soften his position a bit. He declared it (through Finrod) as a possibility; at least, Finrod's good hope was resting in such an end.

Now - to Feanor's re-embodiment.
Maybe I was too hasty in having Iluvatar to condemn him. :eek: This is how the text runs:
Their [the Elves - E.G.] death - by any injury to their bodies so severe that it could not be healed - and the disembodiment of their spirits was an "unnatural" and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this "restoration" could be delayed [8] by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living. The Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME XII (1996), Last Writings, p. 381.
Further, Editorial Note [8] to this text:
Or in gravest cases (such as that of Feanor) withheld and referred to the One. Ibid., p.389