Hostages in Moscow

[cee2lee2]

Just heard on the news (ABC's Nightline) that the hostage situation in Moscow is over, but no definitive news yet about how many people have died or have been injured.

[Silverstripe]

I heard that too, but on a different channel (Fox). I was surprised and a little upset that, as a situation where hundreds of lives were at stake, it didn't get any more coverage than it did. Well, not a little upset, actually. I was so upset that no one seemed to be saying anything about it that I had to leave the room! I'm just thankful that it's over and they'd been able to get the hostages out of there.

[cee2lee2]

I think I understand what you mean by being upset. I don't know what the coverage was like in other countries, but it seems US channels don't bother much with situations involving non-US people, even when it is such a terrible event involving many people. I suppose it's only human nature to pay more attention to your own, but we do tend to ignore events that don't involve US citizens. Even when it's terrorism.

[Silverstripe]

I know, but I don't think I've ever seen a situation where we paid this little attention to something so important. I wonder if there was more coverage anywhere else? (I mean other than Russia, where I'm guessing this would have gotten a lot of coverage).

[BeardofPants]

We didn't get much coverage of it over here either.

The way it was resolved was perhaps not the best one. I wonder how many civilians got taken out by the russians.

EDIT: Sorry, I was not aware that the terrorists were killing off the hostages. :(

[Artanis]

This has been the main topic in Norwegian news these days. Russian special forces took action when the terrorists started to kill hostages this morning. Latest update is that 10 hostages are killed and also 36 of the 50 terrorists are killed. :(

I'm glad it's over now. My honour to the Russian special forces.

[Elven Archer]

cee2lee2 you said "but it seems US channels don't bother much with situations involving non-US people, even when it is such a terrible event involving many people."
There actually were U.S. hostages. at least 3. and i don't know where, i'm guessing some other country, they showed on live TV the people shooting someone. or maybe they just showed the person being carried out dead. anyway it must have looked awful. but it's over right? kind of off the subject but they caught the snipers too.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Elven Archer
they showed on live TV the people shooting someone. or maybe they just showed the person being carried out dead. At one point one of the female hostages tried to escape, and was shot in the attempt. She was carried out by red cross personnel, dead. It must have been that incident you watched in the news.

[jerseydevil]

I think the news covered the Russian hostage situation a lot. Nightline had several shows devoted to it - including doing an interview with a Russian reporter on "Up Close". World News Tonight also covered it a lot.

Obvisouly around here though - the sniper killer in the Maryland area was covered much more (sometimes too much in my opinion). There is only so much news that can be covered at one time. The attacks in Israel also weren't covered as much during this time.

I'm glad that both situations are over with. It is upsetting that 90 hostages died - but still 750 were saved. If Russia didn't do something - there is hardly any doubt that the terrorists would have blown up the theater. Then we would looking at everyone dead and wondering why something wasn't done to rescue them.

Sometimes hard choices have to be made and they're not always 100% successful.

[afro-elf]

Sometimes hard choices have to be made and they're not always 100% successful.

very true

[Artanis]

Well, the terrorists sure succeeded in bringing the Tsjetsjenian (sp?) war into the media. At least here in Norway. And I'm afraid there will be more terrorist actions like this one.

jerseydevil, I'm also glad they've taken the sniper. That situation disturbed me much more than the hostage event in Russia. It must have affected far more people.

[Sween]

Just saw on news that of the 200 hundred dead or so only 1 died from a bullet wound the otherts were from the gas :( . What the hell was in that stuff?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Just saw on news that of the 200 hundred dead or so only 1 died from a bullet wound the otherts were from the gas :( . What the hell was in that stuff?

Supposedly it was a "sleeping" gas. The hostages were very weak from lack of food. It was reported that the gas had such a strong affect because the people hadn't eaten since the hostage situation had started. It's not like theatres have a lot of food and drinks.

[Earniel]

Sleeping gas? I don't know.... I heard about 100 hostages dead, most of them by gas poisoning and still about a 100 more still in intensive care. It was also said that the russian military might have used stuff a little more dangerous that sleeping gas. Apparently the military also doesn't want to tell just what gas they used. (not sure about that one, my sister just told me)

Although the fact that the hostages hadn't eaten might have had some influence there. According to the teletext they only had some chocolate left to eat the last day or two.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Sleeping gas? I don't know.... I heard about 100 hostages dead, most of them by gas poisoning and still about a 100 more still in intensive care. It was also said that the russian military might have used stuff a little more dangerous that sleeping gas. Apparently the military also doesn't want to tell just what gas they used. (not sure about that one, my sister just told me)

Well it wasn't sleeping gas like you get at the hospital. The military had to knock out the terrorists enough though so they couldn't detonate their explosives.

[Sween]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well it wasn't sleeping gas like you get at the hospital. The military had to knock out the terrorists enough though so they couldn't detonate their explosives.

very true JD the official 'sleeping gas' line didnt wash with me much either. They needed a inistant nock out my dad whos got a degree in chemistry assures me that sleeping gas will not do this unless in a very pure state. Not eaten? I heard that they were treating them well and food was been sent in.

My guess is that they did not use sleeping gas probably something much more effective. Is there acctually any reported cases of people falling asleep?

The Russians have allways been not the most carefull that pic of the guy going underneath the reactor at chenobobly whats the hell were they thinking?

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by sween
My guess is that they did not use sleeping gas probably something much more effective. Is there acctually any reported cases of people falling asleep?I think, well, they guessed in the newspaper, that the gas was a combination between a sleeping gas and a nerve gas, witch is pretty lethal.

originally posted by sween
The Russians have allways been not the most carefull that pic of the guy going underneath the reactor at chenobobly whats the hell were they thinking?They probably thought that's the best way, and the safest way. The Russians still didn't say somerthing against this action.

[Sween]

im sorry but putting a guy under a leaky reactor with no safety gear is never ever the safest course of action. My dad worked at sellefeild for 20 years so i know a bit about nuclear reactors (yes my bedtime storys were indeed that fun).

Yes they probably did use a mixed gas if they used a mixed gas at all. Ive a feeling they would of just used a nerve gas i dont think there was any sleeping gas present and there was not much.

But with anything you have to weigh up the pro's and cons i dont understand the sition enough to sya well russia should of gioven them chetzenia etc.

But there is one thing im sure of once people start killing and show that level of commitment to the cause its not so much about getting them all out allthough that is the ideal its about ending it without any AVOIDIABLE complications.

Im sure the facts will come to light so i know there was brits in there and if there isnt an investigation ill be writting another letter to dear old tony.

I would hate to think that the russian army had been careless in this matter.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Not eaten? I heard that they were treating them well and food was been sent in.

I didn't hear anything about them having food sent in. I know that several times that (at least this is what was reported) that the terrorists had scheduled times to talk but then kept coming up with some excuse why they wouldn't meet when the time had come.

In the Star Ledger today it said -

Vasilyev said none of the 67 initial victims died from gas poinsoning, He said nine died because of heart problems, shock or lack of medicine....

Government film of the aftermath showed dead female hostage-takers sitting in red plush theater seats, in black robes and veils, heads thrown back or bent over, indicating they may have been shot while unconscious. precisely placed bullet holes could be seen in their heads. One had a gas mask on her face.

The TV footage showed the camouflage-clad body of the assailants leader, movsar Barayev, lying onhis back amid blood and broken glass.

A congnac bottle could be seen near Barayev's hand and syringes were scattered in the litter surrounding the corpses of other gunmen, their faces masked by blood. Vasilyev said puncture marks, possibly from drug injections, were found on some gunmen's bodies.....

Olga Chernyak, an Interfax news agency reporter caught in the hostage audience, said the gunmen killed a woman and a man "before our eyes."

"They shot the man in the eye; there was a lot of blood," Interfax quoted her as saying from her hospital bed. She said she lost consciousness soon after, apparently because of the gas...


This I added later - as more news related to the above information came out.

Gas Use Questioned in Moscow Raid (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20021028_13.html)
Those who stopped to talk gave accounts that sometimes contradicted the official version.

Podlesny questioned Russian television footage that showed the captors' corpses in the theater amid liquor bottles and syringes. "They didn't drink, didn't smoke, didn't swear. They were very disciplined," he said.

Podlesny and Georgy Vasilyev, producer of Nord-Ost, disputed Russian officials' statement that the guerrillas had begun shooting hostages before dawn and prompting the special forces' assault.



There were probably some deaths from the gas though.
The Russians have allways been not the most carefull that pic of the guy going underneath the reactor at chenobobly whats the hell were they thinking?
That was during the Soviet era - under a totalitarian regiem. You did what you were told and you "trusted" the state.

These actions do nothing to generate sympathy for muslim situations around the world. They may have taken hostages because of the war in Checnya - but I think most people just view it now as just a bunch of muslim fanatics that kill innocent people.

The Sniper here ended up being a "black muslim". He had declared to people that he supported the actions on 9/11. I won't prejudge all Arabs or Muslims - but these actions will eventually have a negative affect on innocent Muslim lives. Muslim American Society (http://www.masnet.org/) It is interesting how the Muslim American Society - condemns the terrorist attacks on 9/11, the "occupation" by Israel, US foreign policy, etc, but seems to be silent on the Palestinian Suicide Bombers.

American Muslim Alliance (http://www.amaweb.org/press/american_muslims_israel.htm). When Muslims condem the action of ALL terrorist - including the suicide bombers against innocent Israeli citizens - then maybe I will consider that they are impartial and their concerns should be listened to. The taking of innocent lives in retaliation does nothing to bring sympathy to their cause.

What will eventually happen is that the majority of people will just start viewing all Muslims and Arabs as terrorists.

[jerseydevil]

Although 100+ hostages have died and 150 are in critical condition in the hospital at this point - I probably would have instituted a similar operation. I had told a friend that they should "gas" the place in order to make the terrorist disoriented or knocked out. I don't know what kind of gas they used - whether something less strong, but just as affective might have been available. Maybe the operation could have been carried out better - but hindsight is 20/20.


Gas killed 115 Moscow hostages (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/27/moscow.deaths/index.html)
A reporter for the Interfax news agency, Olga Chernyak, who was among the hostages, was quoted by Interfax as saying: "We were all waiting to die. We understood that they would not let us out alive."

She added that two hostages were shot in response to a young boy having a tantrum and running for the exit.

"He dashed towards the exit, shouting: 'Mummy, I don't know what to do.' They opened fire on him, but missed and hit seated people instead," she told Russian television from her hospital bed late on Saturday.


As far as I'm concerned - these people are no better and in some cases worse than whatever problems they are dealing with. I will never side with terrorists that do this type of thing. Blowing up military installations is one thing - taking the lives of innocent men, women and children is another. I have no pity for suicide bombers, the IRA, the Checyna rebels, the muslim extremists or any other group that purposely take the lives of innocent people.

[afro-elf]

I will never side with terrorists that do this type of thing. Blowing up military installations is one thing - taking the lives of innocent men, women and children is another. I have no pity for suicide bombers, the IRA, the Checyna rebels, the muslim extremists or any other group that purposely take the lives of innocent people.

ditto

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by jerseydevil
Although 100+ hostages have died and 150 are in critical condition in the hospital at this point - I probably would have instituted a similar operation. I had told a friend that they should "gas" the place in order to make the terrorist disoriented or knocked out. I don't know what kind of gas they used - whether something less strong, but just as affective might have been available. Maybe the operation could have been carried out better - but hindsight is 20/20. The gas already killed 116 people, and just two people died from the Checnian terrorists shootings. 150 are in a critical condition, and many others are in the hospitals in an easier condition. The goverment don't let anyone get into the hospital.

I think that if they were getting into the theatre and control it - the building would've blow up. So I don't blame them.

the Checyna rebels didn't kill children or tourists - just russian people. I'm not saying i'm incourage them - just that they were more humanitarian then the Palestinians. I really don't care if Palestinians (or all the other muslims against Israel/US) will blow up, as long they won't kill any innocent people.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown

the Checyna rebels didn't kill children or tourists - just russian people. I'm not saying i'm incourage them - just that they were more humanitarian then the Palestinians. I really don't care if Palestinians (or all the other muslims against Israel/US) will blow up, as long they won't kill any innocent people.
Well according to one hostage - they did attempt to shoot a child. They just happened to miss.

[Sween]

they still aint told the doctors what the hell was in that gas.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I really don't care if Palestinians (or all the other muslims against Israel/US) will blow up, as long they won't kill any innocent people.
Too late! They already have. (More innocent Afghan civilians killed by collateral damage than died in 9/11).

Or perhaps you mean that it is not possible to be both Muslim and innocent?

[Sween]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Too late! They already have. (More innocent Afghan civilians killed by collateral damage than died in 9/11).

Or perhaps you mean that it is not possible to be both Muslim and innocent?

Its the way of the world i am affraid the ball of suffering only ever gets bigger :(

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Too late! They already have. (More innocent Afghan civilians killed by collateral damage than died in 9/11).

Or perhaps you mean that it is not possible to be both Muslim and innocent?

There weren't 3000+ Afagani civilians killed in the US bombings against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Granted there were casualities - but we did not purposesly target civilians. If the Taliban hadn't been harboring and protecting Osama Bin Laden - there wouldn't have been civilians accidently bombed.

And I think that Radagast is saying that he doesn't care if Muslims that ARE fighting against the US and Israel get killed.

I really don't care if Palestinians (or all the other muslims against Israel/US) will blow up

And really - if they're going to be targeting us - I have no sympathy for them either.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by jerseydevilAnd I think that Radagast is saying that he doesn't care if Muslims that ARE fighting against the US and Israel get killed.

And really - if they're going to be targeting us - I have no sympathy for them either. That's what I meant.


originally posted by Dunadan
Too late! They already have. (More innocent Afghan civilians killed by collateral damage than died in 9/11).Jerseydevil is right.

[Coney]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1740538.stm

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1740538.stm

That guy is constantly being quoted, but isn't necessarily reliable. First of all the guy was in his ivory tower in New Hampshire, no where near Afganistan. He extrapolated his findings from reports of civilian deaths taken from newspaper articles. There is NO known reliable number.

ALSO we DID NOT target civilians, unlike the terrorists that were kept safe in that country. I am sorry for the civilian deaths in Afganistan. But I'll be damned if I'm going to care more about them than the 3,000 innocent lives that were wiped out on 9/11 just 40 miles from where I live. The Taliban should have turned over Osama Bin Laden - pure and simple. If you want someone to blame for the civilian deaths - blame them.

I had seen the pictures of the civilian deaths, heard the news reports of bombs landing on a wedding party. Should we have packed up and gone home? Hell NO!!!! Osama Bin Laden and the Talibin brought this onto them. Now we are there rebuilding their country - or at least attempting to.

More Afghan Civilian Deaths In U.S. War Than Sept. 11 (http://198.65.147.194/English/News/2002-01/06/article20.shtml) Here he claims as many as 5,000 may have been killed. He has no idea. He's throwing numbers out that he collected from news articles. We know that several of the reports coming out of Afganistan were proved false by the Red Cross AFTER they had appeared in newspapers and newscasts. Since his report was written PRIOR to January 2002 - how to we know that his numbers aren't completely inflated with erroneous information?

I like how he says here how the distruction of the Twin Towers was just an attack against a symbol.


But Herold feels, as he said in his report, that, "Killing civilians, even if unintentional, is criminal."

"It is simply unacceptable for civilians to be slaughtered as a side-effect of an intentional strike against a specified target," he said.

"There is no difference between the attacks on the [World Trade Center], whose primary goal was the destruction of a symbol, and the U.S.-U.K. revenge coalition bombing of military targets located in populated urban areas," said Herold.

I happen to disagree with the accidental deaths of civilians is criminal. How many civilian casualties occurred in the occupation of Berlin? How many civilian casualties does the Suicide Bombers cause in Israel (again I don't see many people demonstrating against them). Obviously he picks and chooses who are the innocents. That is obvious by his declaration that the attack on the Twin Towers was just "the destruction of a symbol". Maybe he'd like to come here and tell that to the many victim's families that live around me.

I WAS NOT cheering in the streets when innocent people were killed, I wasn't even cheering in the streets when an Al Qaeda leader was killed. This is in start contrast to the celebrations that took place around the Middle East - celebrating the murder of 3,000 innocent people in the US.

The people on this board from England will be singing a different tune when they receive a massive attack. It's only a matter of time I'm sure too. France is lucky - the Eiffel Tower plot was foiled. I doubt they'd be as pacifistic if they had lost the Eiffel Tower. Believe me - I am not wishing for it to happen. It would be great if all terrorist attacks could be prevented, but that is unrealistic.