Elwë's and Olwë's Indisposition

[Maedhros]

Why were the Teleri's kings indisposed to help their "friends" the Noldor.
First Olwë refuses to grant passage to their friends the Noldor to ME and then Elwë refuses the Noldorian princes access to his kindom in ME save the sons of his kin Finarfin.
But the Teleri were unmoved by aught that he could say. They were grieved indeed at the going of their kinsfolk and long friends, but would rather dissuade them than aid them; and no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar.
Now King Thingol welcomed not with a full heart the coming of so many princes in might out of the West, eager for new realms; and he would not open his kingdom, nor remove its girdle of enchantment, for wise with the wisdom of Melian he trusted not that the restraint of Morgoth would endure. Alone of the princes of the Noldor those of Finarfin's house were suffered to pass within the confines of Doriath; for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself, since their mother was Eärwen of Alqualondë, Olwë's daughter.
Elwë was supposed to be the "best friend" of Finwë, yet he offers no help to his sons.
Olwë's refusal was before the kinslaying and Elwë's refusal was before he had knowledge of the Kinslaying.
What's wrong with these people?

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think it says in the Sil that when the Noldor asked for the use of the ships that the Teleri told them that these ships are to us as the things that you seek from Morgoth are to you, and like them, we shall never make their like again. That's not a direct quote of course. Plus the fact that they were rebelling against the Valar was reason enough not to aid them in their quest.

As for Thingol, Thingol believed that he was the Lord of Beleriand and he did not recognize the lordship and authority of the Noldor. I think as far as he was concerned He was the only authority in Beleriand, and I think that the Noldor showed him otherwise, because they seem to have pretty much set up house where ever they wished outside Doriath.

[Maedhros]

If the Noldor had in the past given help to the Teleri, then why didn't the Teleri offer the Noldor the use of their ships as a ferry system, in which the Teleri would have been in charge of the ships at all times and move the Noldor to ME.
Thingol is just plain dumb. His pride really hurt the Eldar in ME. The only way that they could have survived Morgoth was to unite against him. Did he truly believed that he could stay in Menegroth forever?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
If the Noldor had in the past given help to the Teleri, then why didn't the Teleri offer the Noldor the use of their ships as a ferry system, in which the Teleri would have been in charge of the ships at all times and move the Noldor to ME. I think if the Teleri had aided them by ferrying them across, they would have been as banned from Valinor as the Noldor were.

Question: When Feanor reached the shores of the outer lands and Maedhros asked him "What ships will you send back, and who would they bear here first, Fingon the Valiant?"[quote from memory] at what point did the Valar cause the way back to be enchanted and lost? Could they have sent ships back once they had reached ME? I think I need to re-read this book.

[Ñólendil]

As for Thingol, Thingol believed that he was the Lord of Beleriand and he did not recognize the lordship and authority of the Noldor. I think as far as he was concerned He was the only authority in Beleriand, and I think that the Noldor showed him otherwise, because they seem to have pretty much set up house where ever they wished outside Doriath.

You fail to mention the most important reason of all: the Kinslaying. Thingol welcomed his own kin, but not the slayers of his kin.

If the Noldor had in the past given help to the Teleri, then why didn't the Teleri offer the Noldor the use of their ships as a ferry system, in which the Teleri would have been in charge of the ships at all times and move the Noldor to ME.

The chief motive of the Teleri not to aid the Noldor was because they were aware that the Noldor were acting in Rebellion towards the Valar, whom they revered and obeyed. The Teleri were very wise and just in not helping them, in my proud opinion.

Thingol is just plain dumb. His pride really hurt the Eldar in ME. The only way that they could have survived Morgoth was to unite against him. Did he truly believed that he could stay in Menegroth forever?

Pride is not stupidity. If it were so, of all the Elves Feanor would be the least intelligent. I don't think there was room enough for an Elf more prideful than one who believed himself above all the Valar in all matters. I think Feanor thought of himself as almost a kind of god. As for your question, one could say the same of Finrod and Nargothrond, or Turgon and Gondolin. The only way to survive, it seems to me, was by the mercy and aid of the Valar. This was achieved beyond hope by Earendil. All Elven kingdoms and strongholds would and did fall to Morgoth, it was only a matter of time. And Thingol held out almost to the last, falling short of Gondolin, where, of course, Earendil was born. Thingol was not overkind to folk not of his Race, but he was a very prudent man, like his nephew Celeborn. Some of the things he did, as seen in The Lay of Leithien, were very bad for his Kingdom. But I think his policies were overall very wise, as far as the upkeep of his Realm goes. That's why he lasted so long. The more generous and open Fingolfiniens and Finarfiniens fell long before Greycloak did. Close the door and shadows won't creep in -- for a little while.

[Maedhros]

You fail to mention the most important reason of all: the Kinslaying. Thingol welcomed his own kin, but not the slayers of his kin.
At that time, he didn't knew of the Kinslaying of Alqualondë.
Pride is not stupidity.
But if Thingol would have been more open to the Noldor, instead of relying on his policy of isolation then perhaps the outcome would have been different. What reason he had for not receiving the sons of his friend Finwë? He knew not of the Kinslaying, so what's his excuse?

[Ñólendil]

At that time, he didn't knew of the Kinslaying of Alqualondë.

I did not specify a time. Initially, the Kinslaying did not come into it, but once it did, it was the strongest justification Elu had for keeping most of the Noldor out of his realm.

But if Thingol would have been more open to the Noldor, instead of relying on his policy of isolation then perhaps the outcome would have been different. What reason he had for not receiving the sons of his friend Finwë? He knew not of the Kinslaying, so what's his excuse?

The outcome of what?

You say "sons of Finwe", but there was only one son to be received: Fingolfin. His reason was pride. From his point of view, Beleriand was the land of the Eluwaith, and Elu was High King of Beleriand, and all were answerable to himself. Even though the Noldor saved him, he liked not at all the idea of other rules and other people coming in. It's seems to be a reocurring story in our history, a lot of new people in a small, rich, beautiful land is a threat. Thingol didn't want his people mingling with the Exiles, and he didn't want the Exiles mingling with his land. So he granted them leave to live where his people didn't and he had no real power. That's prudent of him, I think. It created an unfriendly environment, showed no gratitude to the Noldor for saving his race from destruction at the hands of Angband and weakened the alliance to be against the Dark Lord. However, it kept Doriath under his control, and was maybe better for his own little realm in the long run.

Pride is not a good reason, when pride means arrogance and not dignity, but that was his reason.

The Kinslaying became a much more powerful reason.

[Rían]

ps - Ñólendil - your mailbox is like Barliman's mind, too - would you please clean it out? :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
You fail to mention the most important reason of all: the Kinslaying. Thingol welcomed his own kin, but not the slayers of his kin.I believe that Angrod was the first to enter Doriath and speak to Thingol, and at that time Thingol was unaware of the Kinslaying. Upon their second journey, the sons of Finarfin all came to Doriath at which time Thingol had received messages from Cirdan I believe telling him of the Kinslaying. This was when Thingol more or less let Finrod have it, and then Angrod told Thingol the whole story.



The chief motive of the Teleri not to aid the Noldor was because they were aware that the Noldor were acting in Rebellion towards the Valar, whom they revered and obeyed. The Teleri were very wise and just in not helping them, in my proud opinion.This I agree with, plus the fact that their ships were unique and could not be made again.



But I think his policies were overall very wise, as far as the upkeep of his Realm goes. That's why he lasted so long. The more generous and open Fingolfiniens and Finarfiniens fell long before Greycloak did. Close the door and shadows won't creep in -- for a little while. I think you misplace the credit here Nolendil. After all, Finrod and Turgon did not have the luxory of having a Maia around to spin a web of enchantment about their kingdoms.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think you misplace the credit here Nolendil. After all, Finrod and Turgon did not have the luxory of having a Maia around to spin a web of enchantment about their kingdoms. That's so true. Thingol would soon have found himself in serious trouble if it wasn't for her.

BTW: Maedhros, I like your avatar, and even more the pic it's taken from.

[Maedhros]

I did not specify a time.
I did in the opening post of the thread.
The outcome of what?
Of what happened to them of course. If at the beginning they had been united the Noldor and Menegroth, perhaps the strength of their armies could have been strong enough to overcome those of Morgoth. If they would have acted soon enough, it would not have given Morgoth enough time to breed his dragons.l
However, it kept Doriath under his control, and was maybe better for his own little realm in the long run.
In the end, it was destroyed nonetheless.
BTW: Maedhros, I like your avatar, and even more the pic it's taken from.
Thanks and glad that you like it, because in other places that avatar is not well received.
This I agree with, plus the fact that their ships were unique and could not be made again.
Hmmmmm. I will have to put that to the test.

[Earniel]

The chief motive of the Teleri not to aid the Noldor was because they were aware that the Noldor were acting in Rebellion towards the Valar, whom they revered and obeyed. The Teleri were very wise and just in not helping them, in my proud opinion.
Also (IMO)the Teleri probably considered the decision of the Noldor to go to Middle Earth overhasty and ill-advised. A lot had happened really fast. They probably wished to give the Noldor time to think things over and to reconsider leaving.

[Ñólendil]

In the end, it was destroyed nonetheless.

Yes, but so was every other realm, Elven or Mannish. Doriath, however, lasted the longest, excepting Gondolin. I will admit that Melian should not be forgotton, but it was certainly not she and she alone that kept Doriath all those years.

Of what happened to them of course. If at the beginning they had been united the Noldor and Menegroth, perhaps the strength of their armies could have been strong enough to overcome those of Morgoth. If they would have acted soon enough, it would not have given Morgoth enough time to breed his dragons.

Have you not read the last conviction of Curufinwe Feanáro, that Angand would never fall to the Eldar? Have you read the words of Tolkien, that the Wars of Beleriand, for the Free Peoples, were without final hope? No alliance great or small between any enemies of Melkor in Beleriand could have overthrown that terrible King. Morgoth would have won, in the West of Middle-earth anyway, if it were not for Earendil and the hosts of Valinor.

As for the Dark Lord's dragons, there was enough time in the long years of the Siege of Angband anyway you slice it.

[Maedhros]

Have you not read the last conviction of Curufinwe Feanáro, that Angand would never fall to the Eldar? Have you read the words of Tolkien, that the Wars of Beleriand, for the Free Peoples, were without final hope? No alliance great or small between any enemies of Melkor in Beleriand could have overthrown that terrible King. Morgoth would have won, in the West of Middle-earth anyway, if it were not for Earendil and the hosts of Valinor.
Fëanor was dead, how did the rest of the Noldor and Thingol knew that? Their divisivness only helped Morgoth.
Yes, I have read the Letters, but how would the characters know? Fingolfin knew too, just before he went to seek Morgoth:
Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses
How can you know, if you don't try?

[Ñólendil]

Fëanor was dead, how did the rest of the Noldor and Thingol knew that? Their divisivness only helped Morgoth.

I think you're missing my point. Curufinwe knew with the foresight of death that Angband would never fall to the Eldar. Yet you say that maybe Angband would have defeated by a stronger alliance between the Noldor and Menegroth. I do not say: Thingol knew an alliance wouldn't matter because he knew Angband couldn't be defeated. I say: Angband would not have been defeated by any stronger alliance of the Eldar; we know Angband could not have fallen to the Elves because of quotes found within the Silmarillion as published and elsewhere. Your suggestion that the strength of "their armies" would perhaps have been enough to overcome those of Morgoth is just incorrect.

You use the destruction of Doriath as evidence that Thingol made the wrong choice, but every realm was destroyed, yet Thingol's was one of the last to fall. Moreover, in the end, the ruin of Doriath had more to do with the shadow and curse that Húrin brought with him than with strife among Elven-kings.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
How can you know, if you don't try?

I think there is a difference between how we and the elves see the future. If someone makes us a bad prediction we're sure we can escape it since the our future isn't fixed and is constantly changing. The elves however saw that differently, their future was already fixed in the song of the Ainur. When a prediction to them was made, such as the Doom of Mandos, it was pretty unescapable.

[Maedhros]

Your suggestion that the strength of "their armies" would perhaps have been enough to overcome those of Morgoth is just incorrect.
Not really. We know, that the strength of their armies was not enough. But I ask you, how would Turgon or Finrod Felagund know? Because of quotes from the books? How would Maedhros know that it was hopeless? Because of what the Valar told them? So? Can you truly know if you don't do it?
You use the destruction of Doriath as evidence that Thingol made the wrong choice, but every realm was destroyed, yet Thingol's was one of the last to fall. Moreover, in the end, the ruin of Doriath had more to do with the shadow and curse that Húrin brought with him than with strife among Elven-kings.
Then, it was best to Morgoth, because he didn't have to use the strenght of his armies to defeat him. Doriath had the help of Melian, yet the Realms of Fingon, FF or Maedhros had no such help.
I think there is a difference between how we and the elves see the future. If someone makes us a bad prediction we're sure we can escape it since the our future isn't fixed and is constantly changing. The elves however saw that differently, their future was already fixed in the song of the Ainur. When a prediction to them was made, such as the Doom of Mandos, it was pretty unescapable.
Well, it all depends on predestination and free will. If the future of the elves was fixed, then they had no free will then. And no one was responsible for their actions, because the future was told in the Ainulindalë.

[Ñólendil]

Not really. We know, that the strength of their armies was not enough. But I ask you, how would Turgon or Finrod Felagund know?

You ask me this now, but you did not ask me before. You spoke not of any character's knowledge, you said : If at the beginning they had been united the Noldor and Menegroth, perhaps the strength of their armies could have been strong enough to overcome those of Morgoth.

You here state that "perhaps the strength of their armies could have been strong enough to overcome those of Morgoth". Not true, anyway you slice it. I don't care about whether Thingol knew it wasn't true, or Finrod knew it wasn't true, that's not what you talked about in this quite. You said that had they been united, they might have won. False. They could not have won, the War was hopeless. We know that. That is all I am arguing on this point. It does not matter whether Thingol was more friendly with them. It would not matter if Thingol bought them doughnuts with sprinkles every Sunday, they would not and could not have defeated Melkor. The narrator of the Silmarillion tells us this, J. R. R. Tolkien tells us this, the foresight of Feanáro tells us this. There is no way in Utumno that any union in strength of arms of any combination of Beleriandic Men and Elves could have overthrown Melkor.

Then, it was best to Morgoth, because he didn't have to use the strenght of his armies to defeat him. Doriath had the help of Melian, yet the Realms of Fingon, FF or Maedhros had no such help.

I'll agree Morgoth was happy about the Fall of Doriath, but by this statement you seem to agree that the Shadow of Morgoth had more to do with the Fall of Doriath than Thingol's attitude towards the Exiles.

Watch out Heru Maitimo, you may loose your left hand; I am sharp. :cool:

[Maedhros]

From The Letters of JRRT: 131
But the chief artificer of the Elves (Fëanor) had imprisoned the Light of Valinor in the three supreme jewels, the Silmarilli, before the Trees were sullied or slain. This Light thus lived thereafter only in these gems. The fall of the Elves comes about through the possessive attitude of Fëanor and his seven sons to these gems. They are captured by the Enemy, set in his Iron Crown, and guarded in his impenetrable stronghold . The sons of Fëanor take a terrible and blasphemous oath of enmity and vengeance against all or any, even of the gods, who dares to claim any part or right in the Silmarilli. They pervert the greater pan of their kindred, who rebel against the gods, and depart from paradise, and go to make hopeless war upon the Enemy.
And I said this:
If at the beginning they had been united the Noldor and Menegroth, perhaps the strength of their armies could have been strong enough to overcome those of Morgoth.
Notice that the author states that it was a hopeless war against the Enemy, not the armies of the Enemy as I have stated.:)
It does not matter whether Thingol was more friendly with them. It would not matter if Thingol bought them doughnuts with sprinkles every Sunday, they would not and could not have defeated Melkor.
You say that they could not have defeated Melkor, yet you don't say that they could have defeated his armies.
Watch out Heru Maitimo, you may loose your left hand; I am sharp.
Yes, you are very sharp indeed. I'm just glad that I lived to use my left hand better than my right had been.:)

[Ñólendil]

Notice that the author states that it was a hopeless war against the Enemy, not the armies of the Enemy as I have stated

Defeat the Enemy's army and you defeat the Enemy. "Notes on Motives in The Silmarillion" reveals that after Morgoth had disseminated himself throughout the matter of Arda, he was only in his full might when his army was gathered about him. For we see indeed that when Morgoth's army was defeated by the Hosts of the Valar, Melkor did nothing, but hid in his deepest chamber. He was not much against many, when he did not have many himself. Do you think their war against the Enemy would be hopeless if Morgoth was alone in Middle-earth, with nothing but a crown and a hammer to battle the thousands upon thousands of Elves and Men set against him? Valiant Fingolfin gave Morgoth seven wounds. All the Exiles and Eluwaith together would slay him, rest assured. Morgoth was diminished and he could die. Their war was hopeless against the Enemy and the weapons that he used, and the stronghold that protected him and his weapons. The Enemy could not be defeated by his enemies, as fell as they were.

You say that they could not have defeated Melkor, yet you don't say that they could have defeated his armies.

The two are one and the same. The Free People could win battles, but they could not win the War. If they could defeat his armies completely, they could defeat Melkor.

Yes, you are very sharp indeed. I'm just glad that I lived to use my left hand better than my right had been.

That says little of either hand, lord.

[Keith K]

The Teleri would not help the Noldor because ultimately their leaders were as elitist and racist as were those of the Noldor.

[Maedhros]

The Teleri would not help the Noldor because ultimately their leaders were as elitist and racist as were those of the Noldor.
Racist, in what way were the Ñoldor and the Teleri racist?

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Maedhros
[B]Racist, in what way were the Ñoldor and the Teleri racist? [/B


Okay, they aren't racist. :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Keith K
The Teleri would not help the Noldor because ultimately their leaders were as elitist and racist as were those of the Noldor. Well, I don't think the Teleri were racist toward the Noldor, or the Noldor toward them. There may have been instances of racism in Beleriand between the Eldar and Men at times, and there were individual instances of racism. I think Thingol was a good example of this in his ill feelings toward the arrival of the Noldor, and his feelings toward Beren in particular.

[Keith K]

I agree with you Sister Golden Hair. There are other examples too. For instance Mim's people were subjected to racist treatment by the Teleri. In my original post however, I was thinking rascism between Elves. I looked for some examples to back up that charge but couldn't really put my finger on a concrete occurance. I had thought that perhaps there was racism involved in the way the Noldor viewed the Dark Elves, especially Eol, but on further study I have decided to withdraw the racism accusation.

[Bard]

Indeed there was racism, because that`s a common thing amongst people of many different origins. First there was a form of racism between the Sindar and the North-Elves whom were for a great deal of Avari orrigin. Then the Nandor came into Beleriand, they assimilated quite well I`d gues cause they were seen as long lost relatives of the Sindar. Next there were found the Naugrim which the Elfen couldn`t define as being a different race of Illuvater but rather as a sort of Orcs. The example of the pitty Dwarves of Amon-Rudh and Nargothrond would be evindence of this racistic actions of the Elves (coming forth out of unknowing). Then the Noldor came, which brought a great number of people into Beleriand. The Sindar (particilarly Thingol) feld threated by them. The grief between the old people of Beleriand and the new caused a lot of unwill and hatred between eachother. Next group to arive in Beleriand were the Edain, the three houses and though the Noldor took them as there loyal subjects and friends into there lands the other Elves and Dwarves didn`t feel like welcoming them and would rather see them leave than come. Finaly there came out of the east the peoples of Bor and Ulfast, we all know how this story ended.
Some described racist forms one could see in the discussion Celegorm and Curufin had with Eol and Eol`s thoughts about the Noldor. Also it`s described in Thingol`s unwill to befriend the Noldor, save Finarfin`s children and his will not to let anybody of a different race folk into Doriath.

[Maedhros]

Then the Noldor came, which brought a great number of people into Beleriand. The Sindar (particilarly Thingol) feld threated by them. The grief between the old people of Beleriand and the new caused a lot of unwill and hatred between eachother.
Yes, but is that racism. I mean don't they have the same color of skin?
BTW, how would someone here define racism.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Yes, but is that racism. I mean don't they have the same color of skin?
BTW, how would someone here define racism. Maybe in this case when comparing the Elves, discrimination would be a better word. They were all Elves and physically much the same, but they were of different cultures in ways. I think Thingol had claimed this huge domain for himself and when the Noldor came from the West and wanted to settle there, he was of the mind that they could not and he tried to tell them where they could and could not live. Racism would be an appropiate word to use for Thingols treatment of Beren and his early views of Men, and those feeling from Thingol seemed to exist from Beren being mortal more than anything else.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Yes, but is that racism. I mean don't they have the same color of skin?
BTW, how would someone here define racism.

Discrimination and xenophobia may well have existed, from both sides. But I think it is not the relevant issue. The relevant issue (in my opinion) was that they were uninvited guests in Beleriand. Guests that took possession of part of the owner’s house.

Trully what separated them was not so much a racial thing but a cultural one. The Noldor had a higher culture than the Sindar. Their sense of superiority was derived from that. Remember that they had no such attitude against the other Aman elves.

As for the attitude of the Sindar in relation to the Noldor, they had reasons to feel treatened. What happened was that a group of foreigners went into the country of the Sindar, took possession of part of it claiming it to be theirs, without more then lip service to the ruler of the original population. They may have come to aid them, but they are certainly not respecting the original population wishes.

Think of what would happen if it occurred between modern nations.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thingol claiming to be "Lord of Beleriand" doesn't make it so. He had no legitimate claim beyond Doriath. IMO.

[Keith K]

The Noldor had a higher culture than the Sindar. Their sense of superiority was derived from that.


Elvellon has hit on the elitism of the Elves here. Each group seemed to feel that their way was the best, and therefore only way to organize themselves. This attitude prevented them from acting in concert with each other against a common foe. Thingol was willing to let the Noldor settle in areas of Beleriand out of his direct control, and it didn't bother him that they were fighting against Morgoth, but ultimately he didn't want to interact with them. Was this attitude xenaphobia? I don't think so. I do think that he thought his own way of life was in danger of being corrupted by anything new. He is the ultimate conservative politically speaking. In any event, it seems the Noldor believed that they had the deeper understanding and a "higher culture" than any Sindar or other Elvish civilization in all of Ea. Elitist snobs the lot of them!

;)

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Thingol claiming to be "Lord of Beleriand" doesn't make it so. He had no legitimate claim beyond Doriath. IMO.

But Thingol’s folk did live outside of Doriath, and acknowledged his authority. There were Sindar in Hithlum, Nevrast, etc. So his authority did extended beyond the hearth of his kingdom. Those territories were at risk, but they were still part of the dwelling of the Sindar.

[adanedhel]

Originally posted by Elvellon
But Thingol’s folk did live outside of Doriath, and acknowledged his authority. There were Sindar in Hithlum, Nevrast, etc. So his authority did extended beyond the hearth of his kingdom. Those territories were at risk, but they were still part of the dwelling of the Sindar.

True, his authority extended beyond Doriath perhaps, but not necessarily the power to hold it as his own.

Thingol said to Angrod: "In Hithlum the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of Dorthonion, and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild; but elsewhere there are many of my people, and I would not have them restrained of their freedom, still less ousted from their homes. Beware therefore how you princes of the West bear yourselves; for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word....."

Maedhros laughed when he heard this and said: "A king is he that can hold his own.....Thingol does but grant us lands where his power does not run."

[markedel]

Of course the problem with analysing such events is that the Doom of Mandos hangs over Beleriand like a shadow-no matter how the elves and their allies would try they just couldn't win. God was against them. Compare this to Lord of the Rings where Gandalf alludes to oblique divine aid that helped ensure victory.