Why didn't Sauron sense Bilbo in Mirkwood?

[bmilder]

I'm re-reading The Hobbit, and it says that Bilbo had on the ring for over a week while in Mirkwood, the same forest where Sauron was living. Why didn't he sense Bilbo and go to Thranduil's palace? Frodo seemed closest to discovery when he was wearing the Ring and close to Sauron. When Frodo put on the Ring in Mordor for a second, Sauron realized what had happened. And yet Bilbo was wearing it for a long period of time not very far away. For some reason Gollum under the mountains was not detectable, but surely Bilbo could have been. Unless... did Sauron vacate Dol Guldur before they were captured? I don't think it says exactly when that has happened, but I could be wrong.

[captain Tarpols]

well, i have no idea what "Unless... did Sauron vacate Dol
Guldur before they were captured?? means since i'm still reading lotr..........Maybe Bilbo was to near elves. When Gildor and his friends were coming, thst blasck rider dude turned around. So maybe the Nazgul are afraid of elves and possiblly spiders..

[Eruve]

Perhaps Bilbo was too far away; Sauron was too weak; the White Council may already have dispatched Sauron by this time... At this time, Sauron didn't know the One Ring had been found, so he wasn't concentrating his thought on trying to locate it on a living person; he was searching the Gladden Feilds. When Frodo put on the Ring in Mordor, Sauron was expecting someone (Aragorn) to come along with the Ring, so perhaps this heightened his senses.
Also at the time The Hobbit was written, Bilbo had a magic ring that made him invisible; it was not yet the One Ring. Sure Tolkien went back and changed the Gollum chapter when he decided to make it The Ring, but maybe he overlokked this detail, or he decided not to change TH too much.

[Quickbeam]

I don't see it as a problem. First, Sauron was occupied with other matters when Bilbo was wearing the Ring in Mirkwood. Second, Bilbo was a good 350 miles away from Dol Guldur, in an enchanted forest where elves dwelt. It would be very hard to pick up the signal under those circumstances, in contrast to the situation with Frodo, when he was not only much closer, but within Sauron's own realm. Sauron also sensed the Ring when Frodo wore it on Amon Hen, but only when Frodo's attention was focused on the Dark Tower. Obviously Bilbo was not conscious of the 'Necromancer' or Dol Guldur when he wore the Ring.
So I just don't find any real inconsistency there, at least nothing that can't be adequately explained within the basic 'rules' of Middle-earth and the Rings of Power.

[anduin]

QB....I should have told you about Entmoot long ago. ;)

[Fat middle]

not properly on topic, but a question has jumped into my mind and i cannot remember the answer: when did Sauron begin to suspect that the Ring had been found?

for many years he assumed as everybody that the One had been lost forever. he didn´t try to find it. what were the first hints that made him guess that the Ring had reappeared?

i cannot remember if it was Gollum who told him about the Ring or if he was alrady suspecting something when he captured Gollum?

[Fat middle]

not properly on topic, but a question has jumped into my mind and i cannot remember the answer: when did Sauron begin to suspect that the Ring had been found?

for many years he assumed as everybody that the One had been lost forever. he didn´t try to find it. what were the first hints that made him guess that the Ring had reappeared?

i cannot remember if it was Gollum who told him about the Ring or if he was alrady suspecting something when he captured Gollum. Can anybody help?

[Eruve]

In Unfinished Tales there is a chapter called "The Hunt for the Ring" which details the Black Riders' movements. It begins with the statement that Gollum was captured in Mordor in 3017 and brought before Sauron for questioning. I believe this was the first Sauron heard of Hobbits and the Shire. Also Gandalf says at the Council of Elrond that because of Gollum's capture, "the Enemy knows now that the One has been found, that it was long in the Shire..." This statement implies that this was first time Sauron heard of the finding of the Ring.

[captain Tarpols]

Also, it is in chapter 1 of the book! :p

[Quickbeam]

Chapter 2. :p

[Fat middle]

okey, okey, ii had forgotten it :p

thanks!

[Lief Erikson]

Back to the previous topic, I believe that Sauron didn't sense Bilbo for a few reasons. One, he's probably not as capable of sensing it as the Black Riders. I know that's a strange thought, but bear with me. They actually are constantly wearing Rings of Power and are linked to the lost one in a very special bond. Sauron made the Ring, and he can sense it, but he isn't actually linked to it in that very special way. Remember, Sam put on the Ring right outside Shelob's Lair at the very edge of Mordor, and Sauron didn't sense him. But the Ringwraiths are constantly being drawn after him. Plus, he wasn't as powerful as the Necromancer as he was as Sauron in Mordor. And as some of the other people said, he didn't know the Ring existed, he didn't have the Ringwraiths under his command to help him, and he pretty much only held sway in and on the borders of Mirkwood.

[Xivigg]

it was at that time that the white concil attack Dul Guldur to drive the necromancer out

[Spock1]

Hey guys, listen to Quickbeam. One has it right and the rest just muddying the stream. :rollin:

[Inoldonil]

I think the best answer is this: his stronghold was being assailed by The White Council, and by the time Bilbo took to wearing the ring for so long he was far up in Northern Mirkwood in Thranduil's halls, and Sauron's forces were being turned into chutney before his eyes. He was being driven out of the place when Bilbo put used the Ring.

So he was being assailed in battle and Bilbo was far away. Also, since he didn't know the Ring was found yet he wouldn't be searching for it.

[Morkhon]

Actually Sauron was searching for the ring. That is why he had his stronghold in sourthern Mirkwood. It was close by the Vales of Anduin, the last known whereabouts of the Ring of Power.

[Lief Erikson]

Where did you learn that?

[Morkhon]

Logic and inference from things said during the Council of Elrond and statements in other portions of the books. I don't think it is said outright.

[Eruve]

There might be something along those lines in Unfinished Tales; I know I've seen it somewhere before!

[Michael Martinez]

Sauron's reasons for selecting Amon Lanc in southern Greenwood for his new fortress in the Third Age are never given. At the very least Mordor was held against his return by Gondor. Amon Lanc was probaby fairly deserted at the time, and being in the midst of a huge forest it wasn't likely to be under anyone's watch.

It may be that the Ring helped to draw him back to its vicinity.

Sauron had no reason to sense Bilbo, however. As Quickbeam pointed out Sauron only noticed Frodo on two occasions. The first time was when Frodo wore the Ring on Amon Hen. He was looking at visions of events transpiring in the world around him and when he let his gaze fall upon Barad-dur Sauron became remotely aware of him. That is, Sauron didn't know exactly what was going on, so he began seeking. Gandalf interceded and helped Frodo take the Ring off before Sauron's "vision" or whatever found him.

On the second occasion Frodo had claimed the Ring. At that point, with the Ring in Ordruin, Sauron couldn't help but be aware of Frodo.

[Inoldonil]

Quickbeam pointed that out? When?

[Michael Martinez]

...in contrast to the situation with Frodo, when he was not only much closer, but within Sauron's own realm. Sauron also sensed the Ring when Frodo wore it on Amon Hen, but only when Frodo's attention was focused on the Dark Tower....

I suppose I was putting a little spin on Quickbeam's words, but the two occasions concerning Sauron's awareness of Frodo were referred to above.

[MrTreebeard]

It could of course just have been an oversight on Tolkiens part. I don't think there has to be a specific reason for it from a plot point of view.

I'm with the thinking that Sauron couldn't detect someone wearing the Ring just like that. Bilbo and Gollum wore it a lot, particularly Gollum for long periods and if He could detect it this way then he would have known of its use. Remember Frodo was standing on Amon Hen I believe when he was almost discovered. Isn't it also called the Seat of Seeing. This may have been why he was more detectable at that time with the Ring on. Sauron was also becoming more desperate to get the Ring and was bending more power towards it maybe.

It opens up an interesting hole maybe in the story though. I would have thought that Sauron should have been able to detect someone wearing the Ring. After all, it had a lot of his power infused in it.

[Lief Erikson]

I think its largely either when the wearer of the Ring is focusing on Sauron, or Sauron is focusing on him that they can sense each other. Remember, Sam put it on directly outside Mordor, and Sauron didn't sense it. His attention was diverted on the forces of Gondor, just as they hoped it would be.

[Inoldonil]

That diversion did not occur until later though. When Sam and Frodo were going through Cirith Ungol Gandalf and Pippin were speaking together just after a long grueling talk with Denethor--no wait, it was just after Faramir returned and recognised Pippin as a Halfling, or so I may remember. Gandalf looked out of the window towards the East in response to Pippin's enquiries about why Frodo was going through Cirith Ungol if it had such a horrible name among those who knew the Elvish tongue, and he said something like "Treachery I fear, treachery of that vile creature.".

And the Witch-King certainly sensed something he recognised and cautioned the Black Lord's forces against intruders, (he however was busy with the Siege of Gondor) but that does not matter since we are talking about Sauron and not the Lord of Morgul. So I think you're right.

[Lief Erikson]

Thank-you.

[mercyfish]

On a more pragmatic note, might it be because at the time of The Hobbit JRRT didn't make a great effort to clearly place it in the greater mythology?

[Inoldonil]

That would be the historical explanation, but in order to acurately envision Middle-earth, we have to fit what happened in The Hobbit to the greater mythology, as Tolkien did. He always felt bound by what was published on his world, and that means The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. So should we be. He went through lots of work trying to explain things.

[mercyfish]

I would argue that one's "understanding" of Middle-earth will be made no more full by attempting to create a reason for something that was never taken into account.

You can perhaps develop an explanation that has logic consistent with that of Middle-earth, but it will nonetheless be your creation and have no meaning other than that it has for you, and whoever agrees with your assessment.

Now, if it turns your crank, more power to you. Lord knows I have had plenty of meaningless conversations in my life! ;)

Bob

[Spock1]

Tbose who hunt or those who have tracked know that if you don't know what you're looking for you can't see it if it's right in front of you. Hobbits were known to very, very few people. Forgotten in time is more like it. Therefore with all else occupying ones evil mind, the memories of them would not have been foremost.

[Inoldonil]

Never taken into account? How on earth do you know that?

But one's understanding for Tolkien's Middle-earth does become greater when you study his works and piece together things based on deduction and logic within the bounds of the mythology that we are not given specific information about. I mean, you're quite right in that you cannot establish a theory without evidence and expect it to be universally accepted, but the attempt to make a theory leads one to consider Endorenna more closely, and you learn more about it in the process.

As Michael Martinez has pointed out, Sauron was aware of Frodo on two occasions, 1) When Frodo bent his gaze and thoughts on Barad-dur from Amon Hen (in which case Sauron felt the presence of the Ring and was seeking for it), and 2) When Frodo claimed the Power of the Ring for his own. Bilbo never did either. So there's your answer, that's why Sauron never sensed Bilbo in Mirkwood. It is very clear-cut, if you (not you personally) don't believe this, you're just ignoring the facts. Sauron was only able to sense the Ring when the wearer, aided by conditions of environment had bent their eyes and thoughts on his stronghold (or whatever), or when the Ring was claimed by an aspiring 'usurper.' Bilbo did neither, so he (and the Ring) weren't sensed.

The 'process' as I put it is hardly meaningless when you find merit in itself. Others will ofcourse find the whole affair very moot. 'It's just a story!'

[easterlinge]

Galadriel sensed Sauron, but not the other way round. I suppose her Ring gave some advantage. Perhaps she too avoided meditating on the Dark tower too much, and only sensed the stray glances Sauron bent on Lorien.

Plus, she's not a Hobbit.

[Michael Martinez]

Galadriel said she could perceive Sauron's thought, not that she was always aware of him. Galadriel's statement implies that she is directing her native talents toward the task of scoping out Sauron's mind. Her Ring of Power undoubtedly aided her in the task, but she was speaking of something quite different from the topic of this thread.

[Inoldonil]

LOL Michael! I just realised what you meant by Quickbeam! I hadn't read all the posts before yours, so I was vaguely wondering where in all of Tolkien's works is is that Bregalad the Ent talked about Frodo's usage of the Ring! Quickbeam the poster. So I got hit with a stupid stick.

[easterlinge]

Galadriel was trying to read Sauron's mind? Risky isn't it? Look what happened to Saruman and Denethor.

[Michael Martinez]

Saruman and Denethor were using Palantiri to spy upon Sauron, and since he had his own Palantir he was able to come right back at them. Galadriel's scrying was conducted through a different medium (possibly more than one method was involved).

[DrFledermaus]

hummmm......

what about this: as far as I know, when writing "the Hobbit" Tolkien didn't have the whole conception of Sauron and the rest of LotR in mind.
There was no story behind the ring yet, no Sauron, no big war....
This began slowly while he wrote the first chapters of LotR, which was supposed to be nothing more than a sequel to The Hobbit but somehow began to get more complex....

Well that seems to be logical to me ;)

[Michael Martinez]

Tolkien's composition of The Hobbit occurred over four phases or periods:

1) The early 1930s, when he first composed the (incomplete) story for his children. At that time, it had no real connection with anything, but was just an amusing and interesting adventure which borrowed a few elements from his older mythologies.

2) The mid-1930s when he completed the story for publication as the first edition. There was still no connection to the as-yet undeveloped/unrealized Middle-earth mythology, and the borrowings from the by-then more fully developed Silmarillion mythology remained light and casual.

3) In 1947, as he was completing work on the main narrative of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien sent a letter to his publishers, George Allen & Unwin, suggesting that a future edition of The Hobbit incorporate changes along certain lines to make it more compatible with The Lord of the Rings. In 1950, without any prior acknowledgement from his publishers, and without asking his approval, they sent him the galleys for the second edition of The Hobbit, which was the first LoTR-compliant edition, so-to-speak. This edition was published in 1951.

4) In 1965, Ace Books published an American edition of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings without Tolkien's authorization, and without the intention of paying him royalties. Tolkien revised both books sufficiently to establish a new claim on copyright (but only for the new editions) and these (the 3rd edition of The Hobbit and the 2nd edition of The Lord of the Rings) became the standard texts most people have available today.

Technically, both books underwent further correction, and the corrections have been published, and some people regard them as separate (4th and 3rd respectively) editions, but the corrections did not substantively alter the plots or characterizations.

Now, the question brought up a couple of months ago (in this thread) was whether Tolkien had not taken the Sauron story into consideration when he wrote The Hobbit.

As with so many of these issues, the answer is both "No" and "Yes". No, he did not take it into consideration when he wrote the first edition. But by implication, he must have taken it into consideration when devising suggested changes for what became the second edition. And he must also have taken it into consideration when he further revised the book in 1965.

Why is it implied that he must have taken the matter into consideration? Because he had to decide whether to substantively alter the plot so as to bring Bilbo into potential conflict with the Necromancer (Sauron). In fact, he did alter two of the Necromancer passages in 1965/6. So, clearly, Tolkien chose not to revise the basic storyline in that way. Hence, it is safe to accept that he did eventually take the Sauron story into consideration (concerning Bilbo), because he altered part of it as it appeared in The Hobbit.

[Shanamir Duntak]

Wow... trulu the one and only Elven loremaster!