Turgon's Folly

[Maedhros]

Why did Turgon became proud and refused the aid of Ulmo?
Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it
Was it because he was loath to abandon anything he had set his mind to do?
Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be.
Why is it that he trusted Turgon in the beginning and not in the end?
It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen; and that (as was after known) lay east of the upper waters of Sirion, in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor. But there was a deep way under the mountains delved in the darkness of the world by waters that flowed out to join the streams of Sirion; and this way Turgon found, and so came to the green plain amid the mountains, and saw the island-hill that stood there of hard smooth stone; for the vale had been a great lake in ancient days. Then Turgon knew that he had found the place of his desire, and he resolved to build there a fair city, a memorial of Tirion upon Túna; but he returned to Nevrast, and remained there in peace, though he pondered ever in his thought how he should accomplish his design.
What happened to him? Why did he lost faith in Ulmo?
All quotes are from the Published Silmarillion.

[Lefty Scaevola]

He had become very proud of his Kingdom, which was the highest expresion of Nolorian culture, and likely Elvish culture, in Middle Earth, with a city approching the splender of Tirion upon Tuna in Aman.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Also because of the outcome of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, which was the only time that Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, he became bitter and decided to never have anything more to do with the outside world, and that included the Noldor. Hithlum was gone, his family was dead, and his best friend Finrod was no more. Nargothrond still existed, but I think Turgon blamed the Elves of Nargothrond for their sudden onslaught in that battle which contributed to their loss and Fingon's death. I think this was some of the reason for his pridefulness. His realm was well hidden and he decided that he no longer needed anyone or anything from outside.

[Maedhros]

Nargothrond still existed, but I think Turgon blamed the Elves of Nargothrond for their sudden onslaught in that battle which contributed to their loss and Fingon's death.
I have never heard this before. What makes you say that?
By ill chance, at that place in the outworks stood Gwindor of Nargothrond, the brother of Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host. And seeing this all the host of the Noldor was set on fire, and Fingon put on his white helm and sounded his trumpets, and all the host of Hithlum leapt forth from the hills in sudden onslaught.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I have never heard this before. What makes you say that?

From the Silmarillion:

Turgon retrained most of his people from the rash onslaught.

and

and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-persued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and a secret that none could find. Meaglin spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, and his words seem the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart; and at the last he rejected the bidding of Ulmo and refused his counsel.

[Maedhros]

I know that, but why the resentment with the people of Nargothrond. Why Nargothrond specifically?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I know that, but why the resentment with the people of Nargothrond. Why Nargothrond specifically? I am not saying that it is a fact of the Sil Maedhros, but an opinion that I have from the book as I read it. I detected some frustration on the part of Turgon for the outcome of that battle which is stated in the Silmarillion, and I believe that frustration is atributed to the Elves of Nargothrond.

[Maedhros]

Ok.
There is this too from the Fall of Gondolin in BOLT:
Then the lord of the house of the Mole played upon the one weakness of Turgon, saying:" Lo! O King, the city of Gondolin contains a wealth of jewels and metals and stuffs and of things wrought by the hands of the Gnomes to surpassing beauty, and all these thy lords -- more brave meseems than wise -- would abandon to the Foe. Even should victory be thine upon the plain thy city will be sacked and the Balrogs get hence with a measureless booty"; and Turgon groaned, for Meglin had known his great love for the wealth and loveliness of that burg upon Amon Gwareth. Again said Meglin, putting fire in his voice: "Lo! Hast thou for nought laboured through years uncounted at the building of walls of impregnable thickness and in the making of gates whose valour may not be overthrown; is the power of the hill Amon Gwareth become as lowly as the deep vale, or the hoard of weapons that lie upon it and its unnumbered arrows of so little worth that in the hour of peril thou wouldst cast all aside and go naked into the open against enemies of steel and fire, whose trampling shakes the earth and the Encircling Mountains ring with the clamour of their footsteps?
And Salgant quaked to think of it and spake noisily, saying: "Meglin speaks well, 0 King, hear thou him." Then the king took the counsel of those twain though all the lords said otherwise, nay rather the more for that: therefore at his bidding does all that folk abide now the assault upon their walls.
Hello, Turgon, your city is under attack by Melkor and you made your decision because of the goods and treasures of Gondolin? What about your people?

[markedel]

The elves were materialistic in the truest sense-not greedy, but being beings concerned with sub-creation they were tied to such creations. Such desires led to their downfall in later ages.

[Falagar]

And earlier ages. Just think of Fëanor and the Silmarilli.
Turgon also had the doom of the ñoldor upon him (correct me if I'm wrong, can't check it out now), so it's not very weird that he didn't abandon it.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by markedel
The elves were materialistic in the truest sense-not greedy, but being beings concerned with sub-creation they were tied to such creations. Such desires led to their downfall in later ages. I think you have a very good point there, markedel.

[Lefty Scaevola]

To amplify that pint:
When the evles (mostly Noldor we are talking about here) use their "subcreative" powers in shaping a land and making great things, they, like the Aniur, transfer small bit of their spirit into the creation. Thus abandoning great works upon which they used such power means literaly leaving a part of themselves behind.

[Maedhros]

In the end, he regreted his folly:
BOLT 2: The Fall of Gondolin
but Tuor speaking wildly for ruth and love of the king cried: "Gondolin stands yet, and Ulmo will not suffer it to perish!" Now were they at that time standing, Tuor by the Trees and the king upon the Stairs, as they had stood aforetime when Tuor spake the embassy of Ulmo. But Turgon said: "Evil have I brought upon the Flower of the Plain in despite of Ulmo, and now he leaveth it to wither in the fire. Lo! hope is no more in my heart for my city of loveliness, but the children of the Noldoli shall not be worsted for ever."
Then did the Gondothlim clash their weapons, for many stood nigh, but Turgon said: "Fight not against doom, 0 my children! Seek ye who may safety in flight, if perhaps there be time yet: but let Tuor have your lealty." But Tuor said: "Thou art king"; and Turgon made answer: "Yet no blow will I strike more", and he cast his crown at the roots of Glingol. Then did Galdor who stood there pick it up, but Turgon accepted it not, and bare of head climbed to the topmost pinnacle of that white tower that stood nigh his palace. There he shouted in a voice like a horn blown among the mountains, and all that were gathered beneath the Trees and the foemen in the mists of the square heard him: "Great is the victory of the Noldoli!" And 'tis said that it was then middle night, and that the Orcs yelled in derision.
Turgon, you who spoke against Fëanor in Valinor, now consumed with the pride of the Noldor, and not even your own daughter had the confidence to speak to you.
:(

[Sister Golden Hair]

Maedhros, how much do you think the old mythology is applicable to the events in the Sil?

[Maedhros]

Maedhros, how much do you think the old mythology is applicable to the events in the Sil?
Well, if you read the Quenta from the HOME 4, you will see that it's very condensed when compared to the oringinal story called Of Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin (The Fall of Gondolin).
HOME 4: Quenta
Of the deeds of desperate valour there done,by the chieftains of the noble houses and their warriors, and not least by Tuor, is much told in The Fall of Gondolin; of the death of Rog without the walls; and of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog lord of Balrogs in the very square of the king, where each slew the other; and of the defence of the tower of Turgon by the men of his household, until the tower was overthrown; and mighty was its fall and the fall of Turgon in its ruin.
If you read HOME 5: The Quenta Silmarillion, you will see that the revision only goes to chapter 17: OF TURIN TURAMARTH OR TURIN THE HAPLESS. There is no mentioning of The Fall of Gondolin.
The only revision that you can find of the Tale is in the Book of Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin (late Tuor), and it only deals with the arrival of Tuor and Voronwë to Gondolin.
If you see Morgoth's Ring or War of the Jewels, the latest revision, the last that JRRT wrote is The Wanderings of Húrin.
So, the Fall of Gondolin, is not contrary to any thing that JRRT wrote about the Fall of Gondolin, so I say it's kind of his word.
There are of course, inconvenient things, such as the Mechanical Monsters, yet the Tale is something that I would keep.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Why did Turgon became proud and refused the aid of Ulmo?

Was it because he was loath to abandon anything he had set his mind to do?

Why is it that he trusted Turgon in the beginning and not in the end?

What happened to him? Why did he lost faith in Ulmo?
All quotes are from the Published Silmarillion.

After the battle he might have thought that Morgoth would never be beaten. To withdraw into his city would be the logical solution. There there was no war, no death and no suffering. One does get accustomed to peace and naturally they would be loth to abandon it for an uncertain future. Gondolin was a place of beauty and Morgoth could not find it, they were as safe as they could be, or at least they thought that. The city was also a memory of their home TÃ*rion that they had lost by leaving Valinor. It doesn't surprise me they didn't want to leave Gondolin. It is also my idea that they would never be able to build a city of such splendour ever again, which might have been another reason.

I don't know why he lost faith in Ulmo. I guess the fact that none of his messengers that he sent to Valinor were able to reach it or even return had something to do with it. He might have interpreted it as if the Valar didn't want to help him. It may be an explanation why he trusted more in the strength of his city.

[Elvellon]

The account of the Lost Tales, while invaluable, is still very rough, compared with the later sophistication of the Silmarillion. We do not have (as you say, Maedhros) an accurate vision of what was Tolkien’s later vision to the Fall of Gondolin, or to Turgon’s motives, but I suspect Turgon’s reasons would have became more refined (as other characters became more refined also).

He may indeed have became proud of his city, but it might be that he felt the road offered by Ulmo was more perilous than simply remaining in hiding in Gondolin. He probably underestimated the danger he faced by remaining in his city.

In any event I believe he never took what Ulmo said as being a prophecy, he probably considered it as advice based on an imperfect (if great) knowledge of the future, an advice he didn’t agree in his heart.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Elvellon
He probably underestimated the danger he faced by remaining in his city.

Yep but also Morgoth underestimated the resistance of the city the casulaties from the attack gutted his forces, who even decades later had not advance past Nargothrond into southern Beleriand