Beorn's Powers

[webwizard333]

How do you think he gained his . . . ability to turn into a bear (and the strongest at that)?

[Finmandos12]

I read something somewhere (I think it was the Tolkien Bestiary) that said Beorn was a descendant of Beren. Beren could turn into a wolf. Maybe it was something that ran in the family

[webwizard333]

"Now Beorn, if I've told you once I've told you a thousand times! Stop scaring our neighbors by turning into a bear!!"-Beorn's mom

or


"Now don't talk to any animals you don't know!"- Beorn's Mom

[Morkhon]

Beren could not turn into a wolf. Beren had no special powers, beyond extraordinary courage and his love for Luthien. I repeat BEREN COULD NOT TURN INTO A WOLF!

[webwizard333]

Wasn't his best friend a wolf?

[X Rogue]

Not exactly. Are you talking about Huan, the hound from Valinor?

[webwizard333]

Yeah, i guess (I've never read the Silmarrilion).

[Elenna]

Hmm...I am wondering if I am the only one confused here?

I was not certain that Beorn and Beren were relation, certainly Beren did not have the ability to turn into a wolf. He did find the liking of the hound, Huan who had the ability of speech, only he could only speek three times before his death. I don't think Beren had any special powers like that. Other than that he did retrieve a Silmarill and win the hand of Luthien, I really can't think of anything.

Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars

[webwizard333]

Thanks for the explanation, Ellena! :)

[Elenna]

That was a pretty scratchy explanation, but Thanks.

As for how Beorn actually got his powers I have no bloomin idea! If anyone does I would love to hear about it.

Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars

[easterlinge]

I remember Beren did disguise himself as a werewolf with Luthien's (magical?) help, while his true love disguised herself as a sexy vampire....

[webwizard333]

Maybe we have it backwards, maybe Beoren's a bear who can turn into a human! :lol:

[Elenna]

Yes, Easterlinge, you are right, I believe. That was how they disguised themselves to get into Morgoths stronghold while retrieving the Silmarill.


Funny Funny ~ Maybe Beorn was a bear who could turn into Human! (hey, that s not too far fetched?)

Elenna ~ Lady of the Stars

[webwizard333]

He clearly got the powers from his ancestors, but how???Maybe a maiar descendant (they could change forms)?

[Finmandos12]

I'm pretty (not absolutely) sure Beorn was related to Beren. After the War of wrath, some of the Edain went to Numenor, while others while others fled Northeast. That is who the Northmen such as the Lakemen, men of Dale, Beornings, Rohirrim, etc. were descended from.

[Tar Elenion]

In Letter 144 JRRT says: "Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man."

[webwizard333]

Is there a book containing Tolkien's letters? I

[Manwe Sulimo]

Yeah... It's called Letters by JRR Tolkien, I think... :p

[webwizard333]

I'll go look for it on Amazon.com. Maybe it'll contain more secrets of Middle Earth.

[Ñólendil]

The Tolkien Bestiary by David Day? If I were you I would avoid it like the whispers of Grima Wormtongue. Beren's appearance was made to look like a wolf by Lúthien, but he could not change into one and was certainly not an ancestor of Beorn. Beren was a descendant of the people who were but the vanguard of a much larger people, all the Edain of Beleriand were. The much larger people were people who never entered Beleriand. Beorn was a Northman, descendant of people who stayed in the Misty Mountains or never crossed them, if he has any relation Beren it is extremely remote and doesn't matter anyway. (I don't doubt if you go back enough generations {thousands and thousands of years} you can find a common ancestor of Beren and Beorn, but that's probably true of most of any two Beorian people).

But Beorn was a magician, however he skin-changed it was by magia, the exact means of doing this is of course not known.

Finmandos, the Northmen were descendants of two of the three tribes of people who never went west over the Ered Luin, the Edain who entered Beleriand were only a very small part of their hosts.

[Finmandos12]

That's the second time its been wrong. It makes me sound like a fool...

[morkhon]

Yea, I read the Tolkien Bestiary recently and noticed alot of mistakes.

[webwizard333]

It definitately ran in the family, his descendants could change into bears, though not as strong as Beorn. I only wich they had maye had a role in the War of the Ring (in bear form the Witch King would't have stood a chance-not a man ;) ).

[Ñólendil]

You're not to blame Finmandos. I don't own that book, but I do own the Encyclopedia of Middle-earth by Day, I used to consult it all the time when I became interested in Tolkien's works again. I tell you: it has a queer way of getting into your head and staying there. David Day doesn't try to expand upon what Tolkien's given us, he makes up anything he wants and sells it without warning, like an official guide and referrence book to the Lord of the Rings (and other works) or something. It's scary.

Although outdated, Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth is more trustworthy. In fact I think it remains to this day the best source book. Christopher Tolkien used it frequently when he was working on Unfinished Tales.

Michael Martinez is coming out with a huge -- reportedly revolutionary -- Middle-earth history book. I don't remember what stage it's in at the moment, but I know he has an illustrator who's on the same page with him [no pun intended].

[Finmandos12]

Will it be an online guide?

[Ñólendil]

Not that I've heard. Maybe to buy online, but it'll be a regular book.

[easterlinge]

Maybe Beren taught his werewolf trick to some of his friends and relations? And Beorn's ancestors adapted the technique for bears.

[morkhon]

What werewolf trick? Beren did not, repeat, did not have the power to turn into a wolf. All werewolf's in Tolkien's works are evil, in fact wolves of all kinds seem to be evil. All Beren did was disguise himself as a werewolf by using a dead werewolf's hide when he snuck into Angband with Luthien to steal one of the Silmarills.

[The Eye of Fangorn]

Could Beorn be a forgotten maia? Maibe a child of a maia and a man. Even though it was not documented it might be true.

[Kyote Fields]

I just purchased "Tolkien:the illustrated encyclopedia." by David Day. Should I exsponge that one from my library as well?

[Ñólendil]

I don't remember him using a hide, I thought it was by the arts of Lúthien that he was disguised. Beorn was definitely a Man, this is stated in several places, in published works and outside them. He was a skin-changer, and a bit of a magician, but a Man. A Northman, in fact.

Kyote, yes, I would. I'd get your money back and buy something else. I suppose the Encyclopedia is enjoyable, but only profitable if you take it as someone else's world with striking similarities to Tolkien's. It's not very useful as a guide.

[Bantan]

From what I understand Beorn could change into a lot of things, he just liked being a bear or was cursed to change to a bear at certain times(like the Incredible Hulk)!:)

[Treebeard's apprentice]

I feel I need to dredge this topic up again because I'm curious.

1. Could Beorn take any shape he wanted?
2. If so, what was to stop him from taking over all the surrounding lands in the shape of a terrifying Nazgul? Granted, I think that would be out of character for him, but -- what if?!
3. What about size? Could he maybe take over all the surrounding lands in the shape of a super-sized squirrel or behemoth blackbird?

[azalea]

He could only take the shape of a bear. In case anyone didn't know, Beorn means bear in...some language. One could make the kind of sick assumption that a human mated with a bear, but I think it's just that he descended from a race of humans who had that close relationship to nature and who knows how they gained that ability? It does seem like there would be some Maiar element there. I don't remember what the consensus was on the thread where this was discussed, but I always thought he was descended from Beor, since the names are so similar, and I think the characteristics of Beor's people matched Beorn's.

[Lief Erikson]

I am pretty sure that he is a descendent of a union between a Maiar and a human for a few reasons.

One: What other option is there? He's no wizard, he's not a Valar, and he's certainly not related to Luthien, or some high elf from ages past that could change shape.

Two: The Maiar can change shape. Sauron was a Maia, and we see him change shape numerous times in the Silmarillion. He changed to a wolf to fight Huan, he changed to a fair and handsome man to deceive Numenor, and there might be others. Of course there is his final transformation to an Eye, as well.

This is the only race in Middle Earth that I think is shown as being able to accomplish such a transformation. Because Beorn was a man, and could only take on one shape, this shows that he is plainly not a Maiar of full powers. It is possible that the reason he is able to change into this one is because that one is related to his very nature. It might be that if he had offspring, male or female that had a different personality than him, they might be able to change into a different sort of creature. This would explain is ability to turn into a bear, but not into other creatures.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Beorn had to be a man, as he was short-lived -- Gimli or Gloin describe his sons running the "family business" not too long afterwards (makes one wonder who his wife was).

He was likely descended, not from the Edain but from some of the Men who did not cross into western Middle-Earth or who turned back shortly after they did; am not sure, but there might be a mention in The Silmarillion that some of these tribes practiced magic.

As to the shape-changing, could it be that he had learned it from Radagast, who lived nearby and was a master at it?

[Lief Erikson]

Where does it say that Radagast is a skin changer?

I never heard anything about any man using magic, unless it was through something else's power.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Oh, this is driving me nuts! Somewhere (perhaps The Lord of the Rings), I definitely remember someone, possibly Gandalf, speaking of Radagast, saying something to the effect that, well, he is a "worthy wizard" and, among other things a "shape shifter" (rather than "skin changer") but he's just not up to doing the job at hand (whatever that is).

Tonight I just can't remember where or locate it. Sigh. Will keep at it and when I find it post the reference.

Surely Beorn's care for animals is similar to Radagast's.

As to the men doing magic, I'm not real sure about that -- it was just an impression I had after re-reading The Silmarillion recently. But I'll keep trying to locate that quote on Radagast. GRRRRR!

[afro-elf]

I never heard anything about any man using magic, unless it was through something else's power.

in tolkien's letters it says that Beorn was a bit of a magician but only a man.

outside of Moria Gandalf states that he knew the spells of Elves, Men,AND Orcs, for such a purpose

the Dunedain blades of the North

the walking sticks tha faramir gave frrodo and sam

these are all that I could think of now

[afro-elf]

LOI

I think it say that he is a master of shapes and hue

[Lief Erikson]

Those magical things which you mentioned as things of the powers of men, Afro elf, are all things. They are magical items, but that doesn't show magic within the natural abilities of men. Beorn's being a magician could be because of an ancestor having a relationship with a Maiar.

Simply because Gandalf says that he knew the spells of elves, men and orcs also doesn't necessarily show anything. There are never any orcs shown with magical powers, or men, besides Beorn. Gandalf knows these things because he is a wizard, and the reason that the powers work the way they do is because they are each from a different species. The magic is a part of the species, in a way, and because of his own immortality, Gandalf has access to them.



Well, this is one way of arguing that, anyway. I'm actually not sure, Afro elf, whether I believe your view or this one more ;).

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Good one, Afro-Elf! That's almost verbatim. Thanks! The actual quote was in LoTR, during the Council of Elrond when Gandalf was explaining why he didn't seek help from Radagast when that wizard told him about the Nazgul being abroad, but instead went to Saruman:Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue . . . As for magic among men, my impression from The Silmarillion was likely incorrect. One of the many good discussions of magic in Middle-Earth online that I've come across is at "The Scrolls of Orthanc": http://www.users.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/magictxt.htm (time out for a brief whine: it’s a good image there, but why do people often portray Galadriel as a hippy with her hair hanging down: she unbraided her tresses to cut off three hairs for Gimli, remember? <whine mode off>), an excerpt from Letter 131 http://www.users.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/lttr131.htm and Letter 155 in total, http://www.users.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/lttr155.htm , which makes some trenchant points on “magic.”

Under those criteria, Beorn certainly wasn’t magical (as his transformation wasn't for "immediacy: speed, reduction of labour, and reduction also to a minimum (or vanishing point) of the gap betweeen the idea or desire and the result or effect."). And likely he was a man, at least in the overall picture though he was certainly reminiscent of some sort of elemental force in The Hobbit. Since he did mention that he knew Radagast, had met him a few times before, and actually seemed to like him, I would suggest it was that “master of shapes” who either taught him or encouraged Beorn’s “inner bear” to come forth.:)

And maybe in Beorn's love of animals but unsociability towards the more humanoid peoples of M-E, we see a possible explanation of why Radagast may have failed?

[Artanis]

Tolkien says in one of his letters that 'Beorn was a man, though a bit of a magician', and that's enough for me.

Could he have learned skin-changing from Radagast? I doubt it. Radagast was a Maia, so his ability to take on a shape comes from his order, as something in his nature, and is not a skill to teach.

[Linarryl]

I think Beorn was born with the ability to turn into a bear. And Beren was Not able to turn into a wolf, but his friends were killed by one. Beorn comes from a dannish word 'bjorn' which means bear. Beorn probably was able to turn into a bear when he was quite young. He only eats honey and stuff like that.

[Dunadan]

Just re-read the chapter in Silmarillion: "Of Aule and Yavanna". This chapter concerns the creation of dwarves (by Aule) and ents (by Yavanna), the latter to protect the olvar (plants) of middle-earth.

Specifically, Yavanna "summoned many spirits from afar" to protect both olvar and kelvar (animals) alike. It strikes me that Beorn's powers are very similar to those one might ascribe to an "animal's ent", i.e. if you were to create a spirit which carries out the same role as ents but for animals, it would be much like Beorn.

So maybe that's where Beorn's powers come from.

Just a thought

cheers

d.

[SamwiseGamgee]

On the subject of Beorn, here's a really corny Beorn joke

Q: Why did Beorn always make sure to wear a belt?

A: Because he didn't want people to see his bear ass!

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by Artanis
Tolkien says in one of his letters that 'Beorn was a man, though a bit of a magician', and that's enough for me.



Me too.

[afro-elf]

Those magical things which you mentioned as things of the powers of men, Afro elf, are all things. They are magical items, but that doesn't show magic within the natural abilities of men


The Hillmen of Rhaudur (sp) became a sorcerous people and the above post.

Tolkien states that there is no difference in the "source" of the power but the intent of the power.

So men could use magic.