Where'd the Entwives Go? The Answer...

[FiddlestickBundy]

Where Did the Ent-Wives Go? The Answer

By Fiddlestick Bundy, Jr.


When I read The Lord of the Rings, the biggest and most perplexing mystery for me was not the presense of Balrog wings, or why Frodo wasn’t flown to Mordor, or who Tom Bombadil was. It had to do with my personal favorite character – Treebeard. The question on the lips of every Ent: where did the Ent-wives go?

The answer came to me like a bolt of lightening.

In the style of Sherlock Holmes and Hercule Poirot, let us first review the evidence:

When the first encounter between Hobbits and Ents takes place in The Two Towers, Treebeard asks of Merry and Pippin these questions, in this order: who are you, whence did you come, and where are the Entwives. The Ent-wives, we learn, were taken to people-ish activities: they liked to talk, they enjoyed social activity, gardening, “order, plenty and peace”, and were generally very hasty. Then, one day, the Ent-wives departed. The direction in which they were last seen was the Brown Lands, over the Great River.

I personally never bought the story that Ents had overlooked the existence of the little folk known as Hobbits. Sauron must have known of them, and so must have the Ents, unless I am correct.

Treebeard also tells of the changing of the Ent-wives, how the events of the world changed them, so that Treebeard arrvies at this statement: “…very fair she was, still in my eyes, when I had least seen her, though little like the Ent-maiden of old. For the Ent-wives were bent and brown by their labor, their hair parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their cheeks like red apples.” Here are a few more things he said about the Ents that support my theory:

“For the Ents loved the great trees, and the wild woods, and the slopes of the high hills…”

“Many men learned the crafts of the Ent-wives and honored them greatly.”

The Ent song of the races has this line for the Ents: “Ents the earthborn…”

“Yet here we still are, while all the gardens of the Ent-wives are wasted: Men call them the Brown Lands now.” It was in this place that Smeagol acquired the One Ring, so we can also postulate that Hobbit-folk lived there. At another point, mention is made about the great similarities between the Brown Lands and the Black Forest of the Shire.

Treebeard also said that the Ent-wives never died. It is also presumed that upon leaving Fangorn the Ent-wives lost access to the Entish foods and “draughts”. The draughts, might I remind you, were promised to make Merry and Pippin grow “big and green”.

Another of the great questions that intrigued me was the origin of the Hobbits. Then it occurred to me that the two questions were connected: where did the Ent-wives go and where did the Hobbits come from?

At this point, Holmes starts to puff wildly at his pipe and Monsieur Poirot beams childishly at his audience…

Now we come at last to the most unexpected cohorts of this mystery: the Hobbits. After many hundreds of years of waiting for news of the Ent-wives, Treebeard and his kind have no answers, until it passes clean under their noses, unseen. Tired and hungry, sought by the enemy, two little folk stumble into Fangorn, where Treebeard spares their lives when one of the Hobbits states how very much he likes it there in the forest: “I almost felt I liked the place.” Appropriate, since he had been there before. Treebeard quickly discovers that he likes these hasty little tikes. Again, this is appropriate, for Treebeard had met Hobbits before.

Why didn’t the Hobbits appear in the Old Lists? Why is it that Hobbit and Entish kinds migrated in a similar manner—from the Brown Lands to the Shire? What would have happened to Merry and Pippin if they had continued on the Entish diet? Why all the similarities between Hobbits and Ent-wives—both loved gardens, socializing, the company of humans, playing in the green fields, plenty, peace, reading old poems, and both had rosey cheeks. The first records of the Hobbits and last of the Ent-wives takes up in the Brown Lands, and now Hobbits are found in the Shire, with hints of Entish-ness in the Black Forest.

There is only one conclusion to be drawn from these details – the only details we have to go on. It is an answer saturated with ironies within ironies, and perhaps greater mystery than the question itself. The Entwives, on their diet of humanity and lesser living, gradually transformed… they became bent, fair-haired, rosey-cheeked little beings in love with nature and gardening and poetry and… tea. My friends, the Entwives are no more. They have become bent, fair-haired, rosey-cheeked Hobbits.

[webwizard333]

So you're saying that some of the Entwives became male? Interesting, reminds me of the novel Jurassic Park.

[FiddlestickBundy]

Congrads... I think you are the only person to ever successfully link Jurassic Park with LOTR...

[Ma Uai: Ua Nemti]

You, FiddlestickBundy, are to be complimented! Very few times before have I heard such deductive reasoning. My hat is off to you sir (or madam?). I applaud your triumph.

[Gilrond]

Interesting...

[Firekitten2006]

hmmmmmmm

I never really worried too much about the Ent Wives, but thats a pretty interesting theory. The Grey Havens are what really interested me. :)

[katya]

FiddlestickBundy: Very very interesting theory and i love your reasoning and logic. I never ever ever would've thought that thought. I am very impressed. It's a bit radical in a way but it seems a very possible theory now that I hear your case. Maybe you should come here and solve the new mystery of the missing stuff and dead rabbits in my neighborhood. Very interesting.

[bropous]

Nice try, but I think the arrow flies far from the mark.

Hobbits are MEN. They are a smaller variety of man, but human nonetheless. They have no entish blood in them.

My theory of what happened to the Entwives can be summed up in two concepts: "Troll" and "Olog-Hai".

The Orcs were initially Elves who were taken and tortured, misshapen and twisted by Morgoth. It was his joy to take the children of Iluvatar and malform them, thumbing his nose at Eru and the Valar, especially revelling in bringing sorrow and dread to the heart of Yavanna, whose "children" the ents were.

Sauron, being pretty much like Morgoth, also got off to destroying thigns of beauty and peace. He found that the Entwives were abroad, and had them captured by the Orcs, dragged off to the breeding pits of Mordor, and bred generation after generation of troll, which is to the ent as an Orc is to the Elf.

Sauron's final triumph over the Ents and Entwives was the foul offspring of nameless sires and Entwives, the hideous and massive Olog-Hai, which make their appearance at the Battle of the Morrannon.

The entwives never return to the Ents, as they are all mercifully slain in the collapse of Barad-Dur. They would have been like death camp victims and all joy of their return to fangorn Forest would have been eradicated by the pain and sorrow brought on by the ents seeing their condition, and Sauron would have had one last great victory over the Shepherds of Trees, of whom he was more than certainly aware and against whom he would also have possessed a deep-seated hatred.

[entss89]

so ummm your saying that entwives are little hobbits? now i was just wandering if ents are 14 ft then wouldnt the entwives be 14 ft? but instead now they are 4 ft?im so confused:confused: well i do say you write a longgg and brillant post though. wtg sherlock;)

[Sminty_Smeagol]

good logic but a little too far-fetched for my liking. Aren't hobbits called a diminished race of MAN or something?

'I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 - 3441)...' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954). This is less definite than it might appear, because he goes on to suggest that some might have fled into the east, and finally simply states of their fate, 'I don't know.'

[bropous]

...and, of course, who knows, the Entwives and the Blue Wizards may have been in cahoots off in Easterlingville and were instrumental in keeping the vast majority of the Easterlings out of the War. If not for their actions, the West may have been overrun by Islamosauronist fascists. ;)

[Linarryl]

What do you mean happend to the entwives?:confused:

[Fred Baggins]

I don't think the entwives are hobbits. My theory? THe Entwives are the trees of the Old Forest. Now before you argue let me explain. When the hobbits meet Treebeard he told them that many of the older ents were becoming "sleepy" and "Treeish". So I think that when the Entwives disappeard they found a place and a race that pleased them...Hobbiton. But they became "sleepy" and "treeish" and eventualy became the trees of the Old Forest. But why then are the trees so cranky? Well, I belive that when the became "sleepy" was before the Brandybucks settled near there forest. When the Brandybucks settled there they began to cut down some of the outer trees...the ones that had compleatly fallen asleep. The other entwives were mad about that and thus the Old "Cranky" Forest. Make sense?

[Falagar]

Tolkien himself supported the theory that the Entwives had been killed by Sauron (as far as I remember).

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Fred Baggins
I don't think the entwives are hobbits. My theory? THe Entwives are the trees of the Old Forest.

I don't think so; there's no evidence of gardens.

Tolkien mentioned that they were probably destroyed in Saurons scorched earth policy.

[markedel]

Actually he said they could be enslaved as agricultural workers...:(

[Falagar]

Actually he said they could be enslaved as agricultural workers...:(
That's almost the same... :(

[BeardofPants]

Well, he mentioned both possibilities.

[FiddlestickBundy]

I am still not convinced otherwise... Sorry, but I just haven't heard any really strong arguments to the contrary. All the sources quoted are either obscured by context (such as spoken dialogue that takes the form of conjecture and has no authority) or is based on your vague memories. No offense, but I have been many times disappointed by people citing inaccurate memories. Thank you all for replying, though. I would like to hear more...

The closest I got to an answer is from Sminty_Smeagol, who quotes Tolkien as saying he "doesn't know" what happened to the Entwives. What I am suggesting is that this was the true story behind Tolkien's reasoning behind placing these numerous clues in the texts to set up the revelation, but chose in the end not to reveal it -- I can only guess why. Perhaps he realized what a hard pill that would be for some fans to swallow (see Sminty_Smeagols emotional reaction to my theories).

In light that there are no truly solid arguments out there, I am going to stand by my theory for the time being.

[BeardofPants]

Well, there is no real answer, since Tolkien himself wasn't sure.

Tolkien's Letters #144:
What happened to them is not resolved in this book. ... I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin. They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult -- unless experience of industrialised and militarised agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know.

[Millane]

well i guess that is settled mind you i still like FB's theory... very good FiddlestickBundy very good.

[BeardofPants]

Footnote to Tolkien's Letters #131
The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entiry without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small, little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man - though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch'.

[Lief Erikson]

Well, these are a bunch of very imaginative and interesting theories. My own is that they live around or near Hobbiton, in the shire. I rather doubt that they are the Old Forest, but I think that they live in the general vicinity. In The Fellowship of the Ring, in one of the earlier conversations in Hobbiton, Sam has an argument with Ted Sandyman. In it, the fact that one, maybe two reliable hobbits saw a walking tree. I believe that this was an entwife, and the entwives had good reason to like that area, as some of the rest of you I think have pointed out. And besides, the ents didn't know about the existence of the hobbits, which implies that they never looked that far.

[Keith K]

I agree with Lief. Most of the clues to this mystery point to the Shire as the latest home of the remaining Entwives. The walking tree that was not a native species to the area "no elm trees in the Northfarthing" or something to that effect, is one clue. Treebeard saying that the Shire sounded like a place that the Entwives would be drawn to is another. The earlier suggestion that they were captured and turned into trolls has much merit as well. Perhaps the answer is that both of these outcomes occured. Those that escaped being 'trolled' hunkered down in the Northfarthing!

[bropous]

Tolkien himself, in the selection from Letter the irascible BoP posted, indicates in NO way that the Entwives headed northwest from Fangorn. He indicates an eastward trek, from the Anduin valley eastward, and in no way indicates even a hint of them moving off towards the Shire.

Based upon what Ronald himself wrote, theories that the Entwives ended up near the Shire are non-sequitur.

[BeardofPants]

You said it, Brop. ;)

[Finglas]

Originally posted by bropous
Tolkien himself, in the selection from Letter the irascible BoP posted, indicates in NO way that the Entwives headed northwest from Fangorn. He indicates an eastward trek, from the Anduin valley eastward, and in no way indicates even a hint of them moving off towards the Shire.

Based upon what Ronald himself wrote, theories that the Entwives ended up near the Shire are non-sequitur. It does seem logical that many of the entwives were either killed, enslaved, or turned into trolls by Sauron. That was what Tolkien speculated anyway. Nevertheless, it was only speculation. I think that since there is no contrary evidence, and given the 'walking tree' sighting in the Nothfarthing and the entishness of the Old Forest, the theory that at least a few of the entwives escaped to the Shire is not only completely possible but highly probable.

[Erawyn]

while Tolkien doesn't say that they went west, it is nice to think that the entwives were what Sam and others saw in the shire!

[Cirdan]

The quote does say that some may have survived. The last line, "I don't know", really leaves it open to any speculation, except maybe the hobbit thing. That's just crazy talk.:)

I wonder about the "walking tree" sighting as well.

[Firekitten2006]

Originally posted by Cirdan
That's just crazy talk.:)


ok....I'm going to forget that you are saying that a theory is crazy talk when you and other ppl are debating what happened to the Entwives. I mean, in books you really never know what happens to somethings. Its supposed to be like that.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Firekitten2006
ok....I'm going to forget that you are saying that a theory is crazy talk when you and other ppl are debating what happened to the Entwives. I mean, in books you really never know what happens to somethings. Its supposed to be like that.

Books? I have no idea what you mean. ;)

[Entlover]

Originally posted by bropous
The Orcs were initially Elves who were taken and tortured, misshapen and twisted by Morgoth. . . . Sauron's final triumph over the Ents and Entwives was the foul offspring of nameless sires and Entwives, the hideous and massive Olog-Hai, which make their appearance at the Battle of the Morrannon. [/B]

It wasn't Mendel, I think, but another geneticist whose name escapes me, who cut the tails off innumerable generations of mice to prove that acquired traits cannot be inherited.
In other words, JRR to the contrary, there's no way Morgoth could have changed Elves into orcs by torture -- unless he used magic (which would be cheating, and all bets would be off). Neither could Sauron have derived olog-hai from Ents; (or hobbits from Entwives). Actually hobbits out of entwives is more possible than either of the above, but still unlikely. Ents are plants, right? Hobbits are mammals, like men.

[Valarauko5]

hmmm. I don't see why some of the Entwives couldn't have been turned into trolls and such, and yet some escape into the shire and some to the east. The lands to the east are never really talked about. But I really don't think they turned into Hobbits. That was great deduction though! *applauds loudly and honestly*

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Ents are not plants. They are man-like beings with plant-like properties or maybe plant-like beings with man-like properties.

I think a few Entwives may have survived but not in great numbers. I think an Ent or Entwife was seen in the Shire, as in Sam's tale. I also think there had to have been at least one lurking in Ithilien.

[Coffeehouse]

Tip: If you're curious about what happened to the Entwives, read Long Lost Leaves in the RPG thread. We'll be closing in on the answer within the next 6-12 months I think:p

[Varnafindë]

Tip: If you're curious about what happened to the Entwives, read Long Lost Leaves in the RPG thread. We'll be closing in on the answer within the next 6-12 months I think:p

There could be reasons why our answer might not be considered canon, though :eek:

[Willow Oran]

It wasn't Mendel, I think, but another geneticist whose name escapes me, who cut the tails off innumerable generations of mice to prove that acquired traits cannot be inherited.
In other words, JRR to the contrary, there's no way Morgoth could have changed Elves into orcs by torture -- unless he used magic (which would be cheating, and all bets would be off). Neither could Sauron have derived olog-hai from Ents; (or hobbits from Entwives).

Unless by 'torture' he meant awful manipulation of their DNA. Given the semi-divine natures of the perpetrators, I wouldn't discount that.

Something else that should be recalled is that Tolkien only talked about the ents/entwives who dwelt EAST of the Misty Mountains. But it is likely that some of them once lived in Beleriand, and that those came into Eriador after the War of Wrath. There very likely were entwives, and ents, living ever more sleepy and enstranged from their eastern kin in or around the Shire, whose being there had nothing to do with escaping from Sauron. None of the other free races of Middle Earth ever existed as a population confined to a single location, not since the elves first started wandering away from Cuivenien, so why should we assume the ents did?