When exactly did the fellowship.....

[Elessar]

begin to break???

it is easy to see in the film (when gandalf dies- you see Frodo wandering alone) but in the book its not so clear...

Discuss......

[Garina]

Interesting question. Ummmmmm.

They seem to be putting aside their differences and bonding on the way to the Misty Mountains. I think its when they have the argument about the Gap of Rohan, Caradhras, and Moria that things first start to get difficult. Gandalf falling into the chasm meant that the wisest member of the Fellowship has absent, so problems started to get bad about then.

Feel free to disagree!

[osszie]

For me the breaking of the fellowship happened when Boromir tried to take the ring from Frodo...............ok Gandalf fell at Moria but the commitment/essence of the fellowship was broken by Boromir's failure to himself and to the others.

[Dunadan]

You're right; in the film they're a lot more explicit about the ring temptation thing. Galadriel saying "it had already begun" etc. In the book, it's much more in your imagination and interpretation of events. In which case, it's when Boromir tries to take the ring.

[Celebrian]

I believe the fellowship broke when Gandalf fell in Moria. after that it is made more obvious, Galadriel telling Frodo the Fellowship was breaking, Boromir trying to take the ring etc. I think that only after Gandalf is apparentley dead would Boromir try to take the ring. Gandalf might have realized and stopped him, and Boromir's belief that the quest was hopeless was probably confirmed in his mind by Gandalfs death.

[Celebrian]

sorry, I did the sme post twice.

[osszie]

Originally posted by Celebrian
I think that only after Gandalf is apparentley dead would Boromir try to take the ring. Gandalf might have realized and stopped him, and Boromir's belief that the quest was hopeless was probably confirmed in his mind by Gandalfs death.

Yes poor Boromir went through a lot, but IMO meeting Aragorn was probably more a contribution to his failure to resist the rings lure.......the poor guy had just realised that if Aragorn were to regain the kingship of Gondor then his whole future, as Steward, was doomed.....he wanted what was only in the best interests of Gondor and, maybe through trickery by the Ring, he saw Gondors best interests lay in himself wielding the Ring and defeating Sauron:(

[IronParrot]

If there was a definitive moment, it was when Boromir tried to take the Ring... of course, you can trace the roots of the Breaking of the Fellowship pretty far.

This leads to a pretty interesting debate, actually... was the Fellowship a flawed idea from the beginning? I'd say that its collapse was inherent in its very nature, but it was still necessary to get the Ring as far as it went, through Moria, for instance. And it did end up leading the rest of the Fellowship to the western front, where it can be argued that without them rousing the Ents and Gandalf knocking some sense into Theoden, Rohan and Gondor would have fallen.

[Millane]

i agree that gandalf falling into moria set off the breaking of the fellowship the actual breaking was when boromir tried to take the ring... but if Gandalf hadnt fallen would boromir have tried to take the ring... i think that Gandalf falling into shadow set off the chain of events that led to the breaking of the fellowship...

[Entlover]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IronParrot
This leads to a pretty interesting debate, actually... was the Fellowship a flawed idea from the beginning? I'd say that its collapse was inherent in its very nature.
__________________________________________________

Probably so, but I think it accomplished what Elrond intended it to, to get the Ringbearer as far on his way as he could. I can't see Sam and Frodo making it through Mordor alone, or all that distance when they didn't know the way. The journey would have taken years and failed in the end. Elrond said it was only temporary - until the members wanted to depart.

[Radagast The Brown]

when it got break or when it began to break? if it's when it got break there is already a thread like this.

I think It broke when Boromir killed, and the other companians splited up.

it started to break when Gandalf killed.

[Maren]

I agree that the Fellowship physically began to break up when Gandalf fell in the Mines of Moria, but emotionally (spritually?) they began to break with the dissension on where to travel. Gimli wanted to go through the mines, Boromir, the Gap of Rohan. Gandalf and Aragorn anything BUT the mines, etc.

As to the Fellowship being inherently evil? Excellent insight! I would agree that it did acocmplish what it was meant too, and through it all, the members of the Fellowship were perfected. Read Boromir's last words to Aragorn, or watch the movie, if you want to cry :)

Namarie,
Maren

[osszie]

Originally posted by IronParrot
This leads to a pretty interesting debate, actually... was the Fellowship a flawed idea from the beginning? I'd say that its collapse was inherent in its very nature, but it was still necessary to get the Ring as far as it went, through Moria, for instance. And it did end up leading the rest of the Fellowship to the western front, where it can be argued that without them rousing the Ents and Gandalf knocking some sense into Theoden, Rohan and Gondor would have fallen.

I think the idea that the fellowship acompanying Frodo to Moria was a flawed ideal. I beleive Gandalf and Elrond both knew this. Saruman remained to be dealt with and Gandalf always knew that this would divert his path from Mordor.

Aragorn had to claim his kingship and Denethor would never have relenquished the stewardship had Aragorn revealed himself after taking an active part in destroying the ring, Gandalf knew that Denethor had much ring lore and that he coveted the ring for himself........this may have led to civil war in Gondor, not to metion a very much weakened army facing the forces of Mordor. I always thought that Gandalf and Elrond hoped that Boromir would recognise Aragorn as heir while a part of the fellowship and, with Boromir's approval, Denethor may have been willing to to relenquish his stewardship in favour to Aragorn becoming King. Alas it was not to be.

I cannot imagine Gandalf thinking that Merry and Pippin would survive the journey into Mordor, he always had plans for them to be introduced to Theoden and Denethor, he knew these "old men" could not help but become endeared to the nature (courteous, honest, faithful) of the two hobbits, although I think he was pleasantly surprised just how special a place in Theodens heart Merry would become!.......after all the lies and deception Theoden had been victim to he needed the honest, loving and fun time he shared with the Merry to help him recover from such a depression. Pippin also showed great resolve, and gained a lot of respect, while being "politely, but firmly interrogated" by Denethor.

As for Gimli and Legolas....I'm not certain, maybe Gandalf presumed that they would follow Aragorn?

Regarding Sam, Gandalf would know that Frodo would have had more chance of chewing through his own arm than he would have of shaking off Sam Gamgee!!

I believe that although the company broke the fellowship was VERY succsesful, it gave them a love and respect for each other, not to mention trust. Aragorn, Legolas or Gimli could easily have persued Frodo and not attempted to rescue Merry and Pippin, but they trusted Frodo to do the right thing and went to help the younger hobbits.

Was the Fellowship flawed? IMO yes, but deliberatly so:)

[Khamûl]

Something that recently came to my attention:I should like a tale in the right order, starting with that strange day when our fellowship was broken.

-- Gimli to Merry and Pippin in Isengard So apparently, in the opinion of one of the members of the fellowship, it broke the day Boromir was killed and Frodo and Sam started alone to Mordor.

[Lief Erikson]

Yes, I think that during the journey the members of the fellowship all bonded together closely, becoming good friends and coming to know, trust and respect each other. In some cases, love each other. Many of the different characters in the fellowship had strong wills, but that doesn't imply that the fellowship was fractured from the beginning. They had their disagreements, but when a disagreement arose, an answer was decided upon and all were willing to bend to the decision. I don't think that it started when Gandalf fell.

When Gandalf fell in Moria, that grieved everyone, but they were still closely knitted together. They perhaps didn't have the faith in Aragorn that they all had had in Gandalf, and that caused trouble when the fellowship was actually broken on that fateful day. But the Ring was the author of all dissention, and it was from that source that the fellowship was broken. It caused Boromir to go after the Ring, and it almost seems planned that the orcs attacked so shortly after. The lack of faith in Aragorn that was displayed when the company went running off in all directions also might be attributed to the Ring.

[Urksnik the Sleek]

Whilst I agree that the fellowship broke when Boromir tried to take the ring. and that the splintering of the group first showed during the dissent over the path to take over the mountains.
I think the first inkling of the cracks came before the fellowship had ever been selected.
From the very first, Boromir disagreed with the decision to destroy the ring, and while he acquiesed to that decision and swore to aid in it's fulfilment, I can't help feeling that ther was a certain amount of resentment.
This is not to say that Boromir was truly against the destruction of the ring, but he seems to have believed that he would be stronger that Isildur, or anyone else, and resist the ring's evil.
So I would say that the fellowship was flawed right from the start, although not necessarily fatally so.

[Reumandar]

Gandalf dies in Moria... so why does it not end then?

P.S.
I'v read the books and know what I am talking about (at last I think so:D )

[azalea]

I would say because in that situation there was not a concious choice made on the part of the members to intentionally leave the group (Gandalf would have prefered to go on rather than battle w/ the Balrog, one would suppose). But when Frodo made the choice to leave, he was intentionally breaking up the fellowship. That's my guess.

[Reumandar]

ohhh ok