Fantasy or Reality

[samwise909]

Ask yourself fellow tolkienologist is this a world he created or is this feat so enormous and substantial that this is a world he just recorded on paper. I am Samwise Gamgee loyal follower of my master and I believe. Ask your self this :

"Do you Believe?"

Discuss this and give opinions. Any Q's please ask, I will support my stand on this issue if requested of me.

-Sam-

[Banazir]

You know what's really funny? I'm also Samwise Gamgee, and I also believe that this story was a reality.

So unless you're joking and this topic was only started for light discussion, we've got a bit of a problem here, claiming to be the same person... Oh well.

[Wayfarer]

You both fail to note whether you mean a secondary or primary reality.

[samwise909]

I see the books to be a historical text littered with creative detail based on fact and understanding on the behalf of Mr. Tolkien.
I believe that this place did exist in the expanse of time and I, with hope and help, wish to find fact and truth that would positively connect our with the world in Tolkien's books.
If any of you are up to the job and are ready to do this I am looking for 8 more companions to seek out the truth.

leave your email add. on your reply and I will contact you.


-Sam-

[johnnyrod]

I've got a flux capacitor somewhere in the attic if it helps.

[Banazir]

Samwise,

I've been "up to the job" for nearly 6 years now, and found some interesting facts myself. However, I can't decide whether you are serious or not in your suggestion to search for the truth.
If you like, e-mail me at banazir32@freemail.ru

I doubt that you will be able to find as many as eight people to assist you, but heck, stranger things have happened.

[osszie]

Well, I don't know if your going to find a "real" ME (if ya do send me a one-way ticket;) ) but you are gonna encounter some very good mythology along the way:D

Have fun!!:D

I would have loaned you a my TARDIS to make your endeavours easier, but it's in for repairs at the mo';) ;)

[webwizard333]

No, I don't believe. Have fun on your search, even though you'll never find Middle Earth or any proof of its existence other than in the imaginations of J.R.R. Tolkien and the books.

[Silje]

You can't proove that Tolkien did invent Middle Earth since he always clamed he just discovered it:)
So there is a chance that he didn't!
Count me in :)
siljeslunde@spray.no

[Khadrane]

Uhhh... no. As much as I like Tolkien, and as much as I pretend to believe, when it comes down to it, I know it's just a story.:(

[Lanelf]

I am not Samwise Gamgee. I am his girlfriend;).
I'm not entirely sure if I believe but I'm still looking for the plothole that can get me to the Shire!:) No luck so far...:(Anyone else found one???
And Wayfarer - call me an idiot, but what is a primary or secondary reality?:confused:
Lanelf.

[Getchan]

I shall join thee on thy quest ,Samwise 909 . You shall have my sword! E-mail at getchan2002@yahoo.com

[Spock]

The story of Helen of Troy was thought a story until the 20th century when they found the ruins of Troy.
Middle Earth is a world out of prehistory. With hypnotic regressions and "Bridie Murphy's" so prevelant these days, what's not to believe?


-------All that wander are not lost............

[Sminty_Smeagol]

If I am incorrect, the story of Troy was told by people atleast sort of nearer the time it happened. Mythology is generally (in my opinion) based on fact. Old tales from the past. But Middle-Earth was just created near a hundred years ago; not passed down from storyteller to storyteller as are stories of great events from the past. Middle-Earth was a mythology one guy dreamed up... nobody told him about it. And, if nobody told him about it, are you suggesting Tolkien is psychic or something? That;'s ridiculous.

[Ñólendil]

And I'd just like to say that I am Goosegoose, Chief-goose of Bree, Screamer-At-Scary-Horses, and I believe.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

The story of Helen of Troy was thought a story until the 20th century when they found the ruins of Troy. As much as one hesitates to contradict Mr. Spock on a matter of logic, it is important to point out that they never found the ruins of Helen. :)

Her beauty is still with us today. Science and fantasy/imagination will always walk side by side. That's human nature, I guess. Without wonder, we are mere machines (as Dr. McCoy would point out more pithily); worse, we are Morgoth.

It is perhaps contributory to this topic to point out the inscription on the grave stone of Mr. and Mrs. J.R.R. Tolkien:Edith Mary Tolkien, Luthien (1881 - 1971). John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, Beren (1892 - 1973) See bottom image at http://www.cabed-en-aras.com/jrrpics.html

Is that fantasy or reality?

[Rían]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
As much as one hesitates to contradict Mr. Spock on a matter of logic, it is important to point out that they never found the ruins of Helen. :)
LOL! :D

And as for the gravestones, your question "is that fantasy or reality?" IMHO, it's beautiful!

[sun-star]

I think LOTR is all the better for being fantasy - in reality, it might not be as nice as you think. Otherwise why wasn't everyone in ME happy all the time? :)

[Lanelf]

Originally posted by Getchan
I shall join thee on thy quest ,Samwise 909 . You shall have my sword!

And my lightsaber!;):):D
Lanelf.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

IMHO, it's beautiful! Yes. :)

So is Edith, in the image on that same page (well, the photo does accentuate her nose somewhat, but have noticed that on other pictures/movies of stylish women at that time and into the 20s -- maybe it was trendy - sigh. I was born 50-some years too late).

Anyway, I haven't read up on it in a while, but remember reading that she had been betrothed to someone else when JRRT sought her (and maybe her family wasn't too crazy about him, though am not sure on that point) and he went away unhappy, but she let the other guy go and chose JRRT. Rich fertile ground for tales of lovers struggles, that.

There are so many wonderful images people have made of Luthien on the Web that I've seen, and surely there must be many more in books and other collections. Who would have thought to have found her truest likeness in a photograph?

[Nurvingiel]

Thoughts and dreams are definately real. In terms of being real in a physical sense, I believe every thought and emotion is real somewhere in the universe.

For myself, Middle-earth isn't physically present, but it is very real and vivid in my mind.

All you need to create a reality is your imagination, so in that sense Middle-earth is real in the minds of millions of people.

Cheers! Nurvingiel

[IronParrot]

Funny how it's considered irrational to believe in some works of fiction, while others that aren't any more legitimate as "truth" are taken so seriously...

[Ñólendil]

Well, one thing I certainly can't believe is that no one laughed at my goose-goose joke.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by IronParrot
Funny how it's considered irrational to believe in some works of fiction, while others that aren't any more legitimate as "truth" are taken so seriously... I take all of them seriously, but that doesn't mean I believe in them.
I would very much like Tolkien's world to be real, I wish it was, but do I believe it? Nope.

[Nurvingiel]

Reality is hard to define. I think Tolkein's world is real because of my own definition of reality.

I think if something's real to at least one person, it's real. I also say that every thought and idea is real somewhere in the universe.

[crickhollow]

perhaps it isn't real in the sense that it is truth, but it certainly contains elements of truth...

[Rían]

Ñólendil - I'm glad you told us it was a joke, I was starting to worry.... ;)

[Nurvingiel]

Then Crickhollow, we could say that truth doesn't equal reality.

Truth can equal reality, but it doesn't have to.


And nice signature Rian ;)

[Ñólendil]

RÃ*an, I was only joking about the "goose" part of it. I really do scream at scary horses.

[Rían]

Hey, you're talking to an avid horse fan here (see the horse thread in GM forum, where several of us wax lyrical about the most beautiful animal in all creation, IOurHO)- there are no scary horses, only misunderstood ones! ;)

[Ñólendil]

Really, doesn't anyone understand the hilarious stupidity of my sarcasm? Woe is Dylan.

[Rían]

I thought my "misunderstood horses" was pretty funny, too - oh well... *goes over to venting thread to post "no one understands my humor!!!!*

[Rían]

Hi, Nurvingiel - glad you like my sig! which part? umm, BTW, what is your avatar? It looks like something I would pull out of the lint trap after doing a laundry load of reds ....

OK, OK, that was a joke! This seems to be misunderstood humor night, so please don't take that seriously!!!! But I really can't tell what your avatar is :confused: And congratulations, you're almost at Elven Warrior level! (100 posts) (I think it's Elven Warrior...)

[Ñólendil]

My comment was directed at you, my lady. Sure you were funny, but you entirely missed my point!

[Nurvingiel]

My avatar is a model of packed DNA.

Biology is joy.

[Falagar]

Fantasy or Reality
What's the difference?
ME not real? you people must be insane!
And I'd just like to say that I am Goosegoose, Chief-goose of Bree, Screamer-At-Scary-Horses, and I believe.
lol! ;)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
My comment was directed at you, my lady. Sure you were funny, but you entirely missed my point!
heehee, honk honk, heehee!! :D :D * RÃ*an and geese laughing at Ñólendil's post :D *

ps - check your PM's!

[Rían]

And Falagar, I don't think I'm inane *checks post* - oh, you said insane... oh, ok.

(my goodness, I'm in a silly mood - I guess my coffee was too strong or something.) Well, I'm off for a weekend of camping (at the end of October - brrrr! that should cool me down!) I hope you guys have this reality thing settled by the time I get back.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Does not Tolkien bring his fantasy world together with our reality? Did we not once believe the world was flat? In Middle-earth, it was. Don't we have our own myth of the sun and moon? So does Tolkien. On the reality of Tolkien we are in the 7th or 8th age of the world. On the fantasy of Tolkien, the story ends in the 4th age. I think what we have here, is a genius who was able to take a world that really exists (ours), use its myths, and beliefs that are formed from perhaps some religious and mythological sources and create an entire new myth from their elements. So, in a way, Middle-earth has a reality to a degree.

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Then Crickhollow, we could say that truth doesn't equal reality.

Truth can equal reality, but it doesn't have to.


And nice signature Rian ;)
hmm, I can see that I didn't explain myself very well. Let me try again.

"There it stands, its feet in the earth, its head among the stars. A majestic miracle of creation! And what do we call it? A tree. The word falls absurdly short of expressing the thing itself."

"Just as a word is an invention about an object or an idea, so a story can be an invention about Truth."

these quotes are both exerpted from this article. (http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/lotr/A0018586.cfm)

[Lanelf]

Right, I've figured everything out now. It's not that I do or do not belive, it's that I... *looks around embarassed* I want to believe!
Okay, so I'm a rabid Tolkieniac who's watched too much X-files, but is that a bad thing? IS THAT A BAD THING??? I'm still working on inventing the Plothole Portal to ME, but it's going slowly... :(
This post sounds pointless now that I reread it. Sorry!
Lanelf.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

It's not that I do or do not belive, it's that I... *looks around embarassed* I want to believe! Well, that's just it, isn't it. Yet we are stuck in a concrete world (imagery here is intentional) that tells us how pointless such a thing is. Nonetheless, we do want to believe, and it's the storyteller's job to bridge the gap between the real world and what we really want (Madison Avenue and its offshoots have recently stepped into this territory, too, unfortunately).

Tolkien studied what other skilled epic storytellers have done down through the ages; mastered their greatest tool, language; and then told a story himself and, IMHO, did so better than anyone else ever has. (Sister Golden Hair said that better.)

Does not Tolkien bring his fantasy world together with our reality? Yes.

Did we not once believe the world was flat? In Middle-earth, it was. For a time, and the Numenoreans during their days of wisdom sailed all around it "beyond the South to the Nether Darkness" and "glimpsed from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East." Wonder coexisted with reality in those days. Then the days darkened, and Wonder was removed from the world, though Evil remained, and the world became round and diminished.

For most writers, this close return to our own world after The Fall would be sufficient, but not for Tolkien: in how he continued the story after, there the fantasy and reality come very close together.

[Snowdog]

I love the Second Age as the Numenoreans saild about the world's seas. So much can be read into this age as there is little tht Tolkien said about it. Just think.. if J.R.R. Tolkien didn't have to teach as a day job and was abler to devote his entire life to writing Middle Earth!

[Linarryl]

You know, I believe the story.
I just get this feeling that tells me that this story is realistic.Do you think that's crazy. I don't.

[Snowdog]

I believe it is a real world in the mind of J.R.R. Tolkien who had the foresight to share it with us all! :)

[Banazir]

Linarryl, your feeling is correct. It's not crazy.

[Nurvingiel]

If you want to believe, do it! Who cares what other people think! I believe that Middle-earth exists somewhere in the universe, how could it not?

When I was a kid, I thought that you could find some kicd of 'gateway' that would lead down to Middle-earth, which was under the Earth's surface.

ps. Snowdog, where's your signature from? I recognize it from somewhere... it's cool!