The Past - A Failed Future?

[Rána Eressëa]

I've often wondered how different it would be for this world if it had already faced a failed future of advanced technology. What if long, long ago a past civilization had reached it's peak of the same technology we're trying to reach now and had a major world war which destroyed everything they created? All this "magic" we hear about in history from the mythological periods B.C. - what if it wasn't magic, but things lost from an old world that they couldn't explain? How do you think that would effect us today if some of that "lost world" surfaced?

Better yet, if our own world faces this someday, do you think the people of the far future would know what really happened? Or would they start from the beginning all over again, with their descendants believing it all to be just myths?

Really makes you wonder about history. ;)

[Starr Polish]

Quantum foam...quantum foam.

RE, you might be interested in "Timeline" by Micheal Crichton (sp?). Or better yet, Harry Turtledove...I think that's his name. He writes alternative history stories, and they are incredible. He also touches on this issue you brought up specifically in one of his short stories, but I can't remember which one.

[markedel]

A Harry Turteldove fan! At last one of my fellow Freedom Party hating brethren!

Read a Canticle for leibowitz if you're up to it. That's excellent stuff that relates to the inevitability of history along with other cool stuff.

[BeardofPants]

I wonder about this stuff all the time. Or at least I used to when I still romanticised archaeology. :rolleyes:

[Earniel]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I wonder about this stuff all the time. Or at least I used to when I still romanticised archaeology. :rolleyes:

Let me guess: You were thinking it was all Indiana Jones stuff, weren't you?;)

[BeardofPants]

Well, not quite. I hate wearing hats! ;)

[Lizra]

I don't think we'll ever know! (and THEY probably won't either :eek: ) Who built that sphinx anyway! :)

[Ben]

Interesting. You could use this as an explanation for the astounding technological advances we've made in the past century: someone found "ancient" artifacts!

Turtledove's alternate history books are awesome :). Terry Brooks's latest books have a similar premise: that our world went out in a nuclear holocaust and then the magic, fantasy world came into existence.

[Rána Eressëa]

Thanks for the tips, Starr. I began just thinking about this the other day after going over an unfinished story a friend of mine was working on. It takes place long after a great world war, and the people have become primitive again, but they began to surface from beneath the earth things like "singing" swords and "blinding" devices (powerful flashlights, BTW ;) ) and it's all very interesting.

[Sween]

i oten wonder about this fact. If the wholse life spand of the dinosar race was condence into a day then the humans would be about foir about 10 seconds of that day.

If you believe the theory of evolution (let face who doesnt) why didnt the dinosars reach a level of advanced civilisation?

I believe the world will work in ages much like in tolkiens work. i can see a time comming when we will be the death of ourselves.

The best example of this is the roman empire (they had central heating people) i find them facinating how they were so advanced and clever and somehow it all got lost.

think if we could of carried on from them we would of conolised planets by now i think.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sween
If you believe the theory of evolution (let face who doesnt) why didnt the dinosars reach a level of advanced civilisation?

Yeah call me a literalist. ;)

Because they had peanut sized brains and stumpy legs, and no opposable thumbs. :p

[osszie]

Originally posted by Sween

If you believe the theory of evolution (let face who doesnt) why didnt the dinosars reach a level of advanced civilisation?


The best example of this is the roman empire (they had central heating people) i find them facinating how they were so advanced and clever.

Harry Harrison wrote an excellent tale based on the dinosaur not becomming extinct and evolving in his Eden series of book:)

Yes the Romans were a brilliant culture, but what about the Egyptians? They created crude batteries! Why did there interest in science suddenly wain?......and how much further ahead would we be if they had continued:confused:

And the Aztec carvings that appear to be space ships and astronaughts:confused: :confused:

Maybe the human race has discovered, then forgotten, more than we realise;) ............. I'm only thankful that the chinese only used gunpowder for fireworks for hundreds of years before they utilised the stuff for powering cannons:eek:

[Lizra]

I remember reading That the Romans drank lots of lead in their water ( thru their aquaduct system), dumbing them down over time.

[osszie]

Originally posted by Lizra
I remember reading That the Romans drank lots of lead in their water ( thru their aquaduct system), dumbing them down over time.

I've heard that as well, also that the wealthy Romans favoured driking vessels made from copper.....elements from the copper in the wine/water/wotever lead, over time, to insanity:eek:

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by osszie
Yes the Romans were a brilliant culture, but what about the Egyptians? They created crude batteries! Why did there interest in science suddenly wain?......and how much further ahead would we be if they had continued:confused:

Not to mention the first usage of early glass - faience.

Osszie:
And the Aztec carvings that appear to be space ships and astronaughts:confused: :confused:

Erm. Daaniken was off on that. It actually turned out that those glyphs were of the ruling monarch surrounded by the tree of life.

[Lizra]

Seems like we have the "tiger by tale" nowadays, but it's hard to see the forest for the trees! I wonder what fatal mistake "THEY" will talk about 1500 years from now, as our undoing. Mismanagement of nuclear power? Hopefully we won't blow it so bad, and there will be another wave of intelligence to rise up from the dust. (idealy, we'll just keep building though! :) )

[osszie]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Erm. Daaniken was off on that. It actually turned out that those glyphs were of the ruling monarch surrounded by the tree of life.

Yep. have read that before:) Tis much more fun to think of it as a spaceship tho', and it does look a little uncanny;)

Aztecs fascinate me. Why were the temples of the sun and moon deserted, and for that matter who built/used them:confused: Their calenders that incorporated all the planets in our solar system are just amazing. How did they know of these planets and there cycles:confused: (I'm wibbling, as usual, shutting up):rolleyes:

Lizra I think our "age" will be seen in the future as a time of great discovery, and equally great ignorance..........can just vision a human in 500 yrs time "They threw nuclear waste into the sea or buried it?................thank goodness we're out of the dark ages!!!":rolleyes:

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by osszie
Aztecs fascinate me. Why were the temples of the sun and moon deserted, and for that matter who built/used them:confused: Their calenders that incorporated all the planets in our solar system are just amazing. How did they know of these planets and there cycles:confused: (I'm wibbling, as usual, shutting up):rolleyes:

Haha. Nothing on me once I get going. ;) I majored in this stuff, so I can get on the proverbial soapbox or two... ;)

There is a theory that the temples were abandoned because quite simply, they ran out of trees! I can't remember offhand the amount of trees they used to enable them to build, re-build, shift, burn, etc, but it was astronomical! And of course, the flora in that area is so dense, that it only takes a couple of years before things are so completely overgrown, that the temples are lost.

Regarding the planetary cycles. Granted they did calculate some pretty amazing stuff, but their estimate of the venusian year was off by quite a bit. (584 as opposed to the 225 days that it actually is.)

[osszie]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Haha. Nothing on me once I get going. ;) I majored in this stuff, so I can get on the proverbial soapbox or two... ;)

There is a theory that the temples were abandoned because quite simply, they ran out of trees! I can't remember offhand the amount of trees they used to enable them to build, re-build, shift, burn, etc, but it was astronomical! And of course, the flora in that area is so dense, that it only takes a couple of years before things are so completely overgrown, that the temples are lost.

The loss of resources certainly is a valid explanation:) ......although I can't help but wonder why they did not rebuild in another location as the pyramids/temples seem to signify a very strong religion in that area at the time:confused:

Ach another archealogical/historical mystery that will elude us for the while :rolleyes:

Finding a lost technology would be a great influence/enlightenment for the world........but I believe we have also lost an enormous amount of knowledge (herb lore, philosophy etc) If only the Celtic Druids etc had written their findings down, instead of the oral tradition they follow
:(

[galadriel88]

If you believe the theory of evolution (let face who doesnt)

I don't.

This is a very interesting topic, I love thinking about things like this! (At least until my head starts spinning, that is...:rolleyes: ) Anyhoo, I think it is entirely possible for one or more ancient civilizations to have been this way. Especially the very smart ones or those we don't know much about...
Just a random thought here: could the ancient civilizations have formed some kind of an alliance, very early on, that was not recorded?(As in, during prehistory) Something simillar to our UN.

[BeardofPants]

osszie:
The loss of resources certainly is a valid explanation:) ......although I can't help but wonder why they did not rebuild in another location as the pyramids/temples seem to signify a very strong religion in that area at the time:confused:

Well, it is entirely possible that they did, but we'd never know about it given how dense that jungle is! They've estimated that we've only found about 1% of what could be in there. Plus there's that whole lack of funding thing. :(

G88:
Just a random thought here: could the ancient civilizations have formed some kind of an alliance, very early on, that was not recorded?(As in, during prehistory) Something simillar to our UN.

Not very likely in early early hominid development. Certain criteria are helpful for the development of something that complicated (beyond tribal/chiefdomship diplomacy)...sufficient population numbers being one of them. ;) (ergh. don't get me started on the term "prehistory". It is only really applicable to civilisations that developed writing. What about those that didn't? Does that mean they have no history? I think not. :rolleyes: ) However, during the Upper Palaeolithic there is evidence of trade networks... (venus figurines, etc) which could have led to diplomactic relations.

[osszie]

Originally posted by galadriel88
Just a random thought here: could the ancient civilizations have formed some kind of an alliance, very early on, that was not recorded?(As in, during prehistory) Something simillar to our UN.

Hm, Dominance through power seems to have been the uniting factor in history:rolleyes: , It probably still is today:mad: ......although a couple of exceptions did happen.

The Celts had a self-ruling trade route that stretched from Greece to northern Britain, therefore encompassing many races and cultures:)

Also eastern european countries (Poland, Hungry, Transylvania etc) would make alliances with each other, although these alliances seldom lasted more than a gerneration or two

:(

[BeardofPants]

Let's not forget the phoenicians. There's some flake who thinks that they might have voyaged out to NZ. :rolleyes:

Oh and there's another flake who thinks that Celts found NZ first, and built stone rings. Geez. :rolleyes: I don't even need to get into this from a geological basis, but let me just tell you that the stone "rings" are entirely natural formations.

I hate it when people think that 'prehistoric' "primitives" were too stupid to do stuff. Okay, so you'd rather atribute New Zealands first colonists to the Celts, instead of acknowledging how great pacific mariners were???? Oh well, better Celts than aliens, I guess. :rolleyes:

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/

http://www.zealand.org.nz/history.htm


(Note: moriori theories are complete bunk. Back when they only believed on One Great Migration. Now it's believed to be more likely that there were several there and back journeys, and the morioris were just another maori tribe.)

[osszie]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Let's not forget the phoenicians. There's some flake who thinks that they might have voyaged out to NZ. :rolleyes:

Oh and there's another flake who thinks that Celts found NZ first, and built stone rings. Geez. :rolleyes: I don't even need to get into this from a geological basis, but let me just tell you that the stone "rings" are entirely natural formations.

I hate it when people think that historic "primitives" were too stupid to do stuff. Okay, so you'd rather atribute New Zealands first colonists to the Celts, instead of acknowledging how great pacific mariners were???? Oh well, better Celts than aliens, I guess. :rolleye

hahahaha..........well the Celts were a wandering/exploring people but I doubt very much that they managed to explore quite as far as NZ;) .........although they probably did try to explore the seas as much as their shipbuilding tech at the time allowed:)

Personlly I hate the word "PRIMITIVE" when it is used to describe people:mad: ..........take your average population of the city/town of your choice, put them in a wild (natural?) environment and see how they fare, that will show us just how "primitive" the people we label as such are;)

If you could choose an event/discovery/invention that would have continued to be developed .......... what would it be folks?

I personnally would have loved to have seen William I expand on the domesday book and make Britain the first real nationwide society:cool: ........... it would have been a very diferrent country today:rolleyes:

[osszie]

Originally posted by osszie

If you could choose an event/discovery/invention that would have continued to be developed .......... what would it be folks

that was meant as a footnote, not to distract away from the original topic;)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by osszie
Personlly I hate the word "PRIMITIVE" when it is used to describe people:mad:

I hate the word period. People have this idea that stone tool cultures are 'primitive'. Whereas, in actual reality, they're a lot harder to make than modern weapons! They require a lot more precision, and a lot more technological specialisation than todays methods. Gah. Pet peeve. And this whole idea that the technological boom has only occured over the last 100 years is just bollocks. Humans have been having technological leaps and bounds since around 35,000 BP. It is just a matter of perception. The invention of the needle and thread was just as big as the invention of radio.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by osszie
And the Aztec carvings that appear to be space ships and astronaughts:confused: :confused:


Ick, I hate when people like Von Danikan start babbling on about aliens, the ancient people are smarter than they think. Oh, and I'm glad that no one has mentioned Atlantis yet. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
And this whole idea that the technological boom has only occured over the last 100 years is just bollocks. Humans have been having technological leaps and bounds since around 35,000 BP. It is just a matter of perception. The invention of the needle and thread was just as big as the invention of radio.


I agree, but in the last 100 years there have been some very big changes. We can talk to someone on the other side of the world, have acess to a lot of information (via the internet) and we are close to finding the origin and fate of the universe (through large telescopes).

[Sween]

in the last 10,000 years or so how much has the human brain developed? So there is no eeason why they could not comptrehend and understand the things we know today.

The problem of old was not much was recorded it was passed from father to son or mother to daughter. So if something like a war broke out and that person got killed that skill would be lost.

really how advanced are we? Sure we have computers and are ok at medicin but we probably dont have half the skills of people of old.

The egyptians have allways facinated me they built the prymind which i long to see just to think wow someone built all this tousands of years ago and i get excited about been able to complete Mario kart :D

[azalea]

It's funny -- I've thought about this before, how the word "uncivilized" is a much more accurate term to describe people who live simply, outside of the "world society," but it has for some reason a negative connotation, I guess through the way it has been used. But if you think about the word origins, primitive is to me insulting, whereas uncivilized really isn't. Just thought it was interesting that other people don't like that word in descriptions!

EDIT: Okay, maybe insulting isn't the right word, but to me it has a mare negative connotation (characterizing those people as "base"), but uncivilized seems to me to refer to someone who by choice or situation prefers to live without modern "conveniences."

[Earniel]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Oh, and I'm glad that no one has mentioned Atlantis yet. :rolleyes:

If I remember correctly the only reliable source for the existance of Atlantis is one tiny little mention in a copy of something that Plato wrote. It's also geologically impossible for the Atlantic ocean to have had a continent. Although I've heard there is some evidence that the land under the ice of the northpole was once a real island with rivers and such. Still, I doubt the existance of any advanced civilisation on one big island Atlantis or Mu or whatnot in the middle of the atlantic ocean. It's like saying the ancient Egyptians weren't smart enough to build the piramids on their own.

I don't mind the word primitive much but I think it's used wrongly a lot. Just like the word civilised actually.:rolleyes: There is a painttrend (right term?) that's called 'the Flemish primitives' and they are far from primitive, let me tell you that.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I agree, but in the last 100 years there have been some very big changes. We can talk to someone on the other side of the world, have acess to a lot of information (via the internet) and we are close to finding the origin and fate of the universe (through large telescopes).

Those are very big changes but I would argue that the event of the needles, the wheel, agriculture, sea-navigation, art, etc, are all massive changes as well. I would argue that the reason that it seems that there is an acceleration is due to the media (radio, tv, etc.) I have a theory that inventiveness is an inherent shared ability, and the more people can feed off this, the faster things will be co-invented. Have you noticed how when someone makes a breakthrough in something, others are not far behind that person in developing that new technology? But before that, there was a kind a mental block? This is what I think is causing the acceleration, not that we are any better or smarter, or more efficient than say 35,000 years ago. Our brains, as Sween mentioned, have not changed over this time period. Rather, we have become better at sharing our information, via the new forms of media.

You know how I'm reading the Code Book? Well, it's got a quite a few examples of "co-invention." You really should read it - it's fascinating!

And at the risk of sounding completely flakey here, in a sense, I do believe in a sort of hive-mentality. There are quite a few examples of early hominid tool technology being developed at around the same time, even though they were separated by geographic barriers: some can be explained, trade networks, etc, but some cannot, ie bodies of water. I think that media has just enabled us to be more efficient at this so-called hive-mentality.

Sween: The pyramids have always fascinated me as well... so much so, that it was my minor at university. Go here to check out the Cheops mystery:

http://www.cheops.org/startpage/themystery/mystery.htm

[Earniel]

Very interesting link, Bop.

Did any one see 'Egypt' on national geographic? They send another robot up in those shafts.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
How do you think that would effect us today if some of that "lost world" surfaced?
It wouldn't really effect me, but I would be really darn impressed. I doubt this will ever happen, but it sure would be cool.

[osszie]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I agree, but in the last 100 years there have been some very big changes. We can talk to someone on the other side of the world, have acess to a lot of information (via the internet) and we are close to finding the origin and fate of the universe (through large telescopes).

Yes the last 100 yrs (or so) have been remarkable but I think the real big achievement for the human race came about with the development of languages. Every race and culture developed both oral and written ways to communicate, from the Heiroglyphics of the Egyptions to direction indicators of feathers on trees used by hunters in the Borneo jungles (BoP this goes a long way towards proving your "hive" theory) I believe that humans have always had a compulsion to share knowledge and the development of comprehensive languages and the written word made it possible for us to start our develpment as a race which invented and improved upon inventions bringing us to the modern day.

The internet is certainly giving everyone access to more knowledge and this will accelerate the our adavancement in the future.......most people decide what to do with their lives after a flash of inspiration (the "wow I want to do that" factor;) ) and the internet (media in general actually) gives us access to more information than any other generation could even dream of, all it needs is something to spark an interest and .......whoosh someones designed the warp engine/supercomputer/improved food processor/wotever:)

Someone may even be inspired to study linguistics after reading this post and go on to develop a language that is accessable to all cultures (seeing as Esperanto refuses to be accepted by the mainstream)..............but somehow I doubt it, not from this post anyway;)

[Lizra]

Regarding Sween's comment that our brains haven't changed, do you have to physically alter the body, to evolve? The acquisition of knowledge, is this evolving? I can use a computer (actually, this is debatable:) ), but I can't build one, so I haven't really upped myself. Hmmm, we know a lot more than ancient peoples, but we can't necessarily DO more, we are rapidly losing the ability to feed ourselves (without a store to purchase the food at) also making shelter, etc. So are we better, or worse? Our machines are evolving , we are Devo! Aaack..:)

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
You know how I'm reading the Code Book? Well, it's got a quite a few examples of "co-invention." You really should read it - it's fascinating!

I will definately try to read that book, after I've finished the HoME.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Earniel
Did any one see 'Egypt' on national geographic? They send another robot up in those shafts.

The pyramids have always facinated me. I think they found another door in the shaft, so now they have to design another robot to open that door!

Originally posted by Lizra
Hmmm, We know a lot more than ancient peoples, but we can't necessarily DO more, we are rapidly losing the ability to feed ourselves (without a store to purchase the food at) also making shelter, etc. So are we better, or worse?

I think we are losing touch with nature. For example a lot of people wouldn't know which stars rise when it is time to plant crops, but it was probably common knowledge years ago.

[galadriel88]

I think we are losing touch with nature. For example a lot of people wouldn't know which stars rise when it is time to plant crops, but it was probably common knowledge years ago.

This brings up a very interesting point. If all our technological advances and such were to suddenly be destroyed or lost or something and we had to start all over again, surviving very simply, how many of us could do it? Do we have the basic survival skills our ancestors had?

[Starr Polish]

Speaking of Atlantis, some people belive that Cuba is the tip of where it used to be. There is also another 'lost continent' called Mau, is there not?

[Earniel]

I think we are losing touch with nature. For example a lot of people wouldn't know which stars rise when it is time to plant crops, but it was probably common knowledge years ago.
Also a study of a few years back (I believe in Germany) proved that a large part of the children believed that natural colour of a cow was... purple. Due to the milka-cow TV-commericals.
The pyramids have always facinated me. I think they found another door in the shaft, so now they have to design another robot to open that door!
They drilled a hole in the first stone slab and poked a miniature camera in only to reveal...*drumroll*...another door! Those Egyptians really had a sense of humour. :rolleyes:
This brings up a very interesting point. If all our technological advances and such were to suddenly be destroyed or lost or something and we had to start all over again, surviving very simply, how many of us could do it? Do we have the basic survival skills our ancestors had?
Not many would survive, I know I wouldn't. Unless I got a big deal of help. Maybe it's time I had a look at the SAS-survival handbook. If some disaster destroyed our advanced technology I think many would die from starvation because we wouldn't be able to keep food-production levels that high.
Speaking of Atlantis, some people belive that Cuba is the tip of where it used to be. There is also another 'lost continent' called Mau, is there not?
I believe Mu (or Mau) was the same as Atlantis. What are the odds of having two lost continents?

[Sween]

Originally posted by Lizra
Regarding Sween's comment that our brains haven't changed, do you have to physically alter the body, to evolve? The acquisition of knowledge, is this evolving? I can use a computer (actually, this is debatable:) ), but I can't build one, so I haven't really upped myself. Hmmm, we know a lot more than ancient peoples, but we can't necessarily DO more, we are rapidly losing the ability to feed ourselves (without a store to purchase the food at) also making shelter, etc. So are we better, or worse? Our machines are evolving , we are Devo! Aaack..:)

my point was if you had taken a person from 10 thousand years ago and raised them in this time we would see very little difference in them. We are in some respects becoming not nessirly dumber but we are becomming lazy. after a 100 years of machines doing all production who will be left who rembers how to do it by hand?

Humans are above other animals because we have a far superior abaility to learn and an oposiable thumb.

Ive allways thought that intellegence is just something that you are born with myself i could do with a bit more BoP obviosly has too much (thanks 4 the link by the way) as do a few other people here :D

[BeardofPants]

Yes, big brains help, as does an opposable thumb, but the real reason we're so damned successful, is because of our adaptability. No other species has specialised in non-specialisation like we have - we can survive just about anywhere. Extinctions generally happen when an organism is trapped into a niche/environment that they are not familiar with.

Regarding sapiens morphology, Sween is right. Physically, we have not changed in the last 10,000 years. If you transplanted a new born baby from 10,000 BP, and it grew up in our time, it would be no different from a modern baby. The differences between sapiens 10,000 BP and now belong purely in the cultural evolution part of the spectrum, not the biological part. (That is not to say that sapiens as a species hasn't changed since 250,000BP because morphologically, we have. We have slightly bigger brains, we are taller, we are less robust, and so forth.)

[Sween]

Im sure that people are getting much taller as the generations go on. The best example of this in my opion is the size of goals mouths in football. Now forgive me if the figures are not exact i heard this a long time ago the reason that we get lower scoreing games than when it first started has a lot to do with the size of people today. When football started they decided a goal should be the width of 3 and a half standard men which at the time was something like 4'5 so it means people have grown a lot.

My personal thery on this is the intrudion of shelves. I myself am 6'4 my mum is 5'2 and my dad 5'10 the reason i think im so tall is my keen intrest in basketball i think in many ways i subconsioly told my body to grow taller so i would be better. But as usual im probably talking out my ass.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sween
But as usual im probably talking out my ass.

Perhaps it's because you talk out of your ass that you're so tall. :p

I would say that the reason we are tall is due to things like better nutrition. But that's not to entirely discount the power of the brain; I just don't think that it's on such a small scale (one generation) like that.

[osszie]

Just to dig this old chestnut up again;)

Do you think that we have learned from the past..............or does society today distance itself from past events?