Clive Staples Lewis

[TinuvielChild]

Has anyone here read anything by C. S. Lewis besides the Chronicles of Narnia? That would include the Screwtape Letters/Screwtape Proposes a Toast, Mere Christianity, A Grief Observed, Miracles, and The Problem of Pain.

Did you guys know that The Screwtape Letters is dedicated to J. R. R. Tolkien? That's the only other Lewis non-Narnia book that I've read. Awesomeness. It's an incredible book.

[TinuvielChild]

Oh wait...this one probably ought to go in General Literature, oughtn't it...could someone move it for me, please?

[IronParrot]

Done.

[Rían]

(aren't those admins amazing! thanks, admins!)

Hey TC, we seem to be following each other around the threads here! I'm kinda pooped after a long day, and after a long-winded explanation on the Tengwar thread on how to get a piece of paper scanned in and down to ONLY 10K!!!, so I'll just say I think I have read just about everything Lewis has written. I have even written to the publishers to get some of his stuff that was not currently available in bookstores! He is an INCREDIBLE author. Wouldn't you have loved to see Lewis and Tolkien together?

Anyway, you can ask me about a specific book, or I'll get on early next week and post a review of one of my favs.

[sun-star]

I've read Mere Christianity, Surprised by Joy, and the Screwtape Letters/Screwtape Proposes a Toast, I'm currently reading The Problem of Pain, and Miracles and A Grief Observed are on my to-read pile. You might say I'm in the grip of an obsession :)
I find him such an incredibly lucid and intelligent writer - he helps me understand things so much more. Has anyone read any biographies of him? What did you think?

Wouldn't you have loved to see Lewis and Tolkien together?

Absolutely!

[crickhollow]

everything lewis ever wrote is either on my "already read" list, or my "to read" list. heheheh.
what have I already read besides CoN?
-Til We Have Faces
-Space Trilogy
this summer I found a copy in our campus library of Lewis' _History of Boxen_ it's a collection of stories that he wrote starting when he was eight years old...!

[osszie]

I've just downloaded a copy of his first book!

Spirits in Bondage (a cycle of lyrics)

It was published under the pen name Clive Hamilton, all poetry and very good :)

Did he publish anymore poetry books?

[BeardofPants]

Apart from the narnia chronicles, I've read the first 2 books in the space trilogy - but that was when I was really young, so I don't really remember much from them.

[TinuvielChild]

The only one besides the CoN that I've read is the Screwtape Letters/Screwtape Proposes a Toast, but I totally and completely loved it, and now Mere Christianity and A Case for Christianity are on my To-read list, along with a slew of Tolkien books and the 4 Discworld books that I haven't yet read....

[Rían]

sun-star, how do you like Problem of Pain so far? That is definitely in my top-10-of-all-books. It is amazing. I esp. like the intro, where he says he didn't want to write the book because - oh shoot, it's so good I'll have to run and grab the book - here it is: When Mr. Ashley Sampson suggested to me the writing of this book, I asked leave to be allowed to write it anonymously, since, if I were to say what I really thought about pain, I should be forced to make statements of such apparent fortitude that they would become ridiculous if anyone knew who made them. Anonymity was rejected as inconsistent with the series, but Mr. Sampson pointed out that I could write a preface explaining that I did not live up to my own principles! This exhilarating programme I am now carrying out. ... I must add, too, that the only purpose of the book is to solve the intellectual problem raised by suffering; for the far higher task of teaching fortitude and patience I was never fool enough to suppose myself qualified, nor have I anything to offer my readers except my conviction that when pain is to be borne, a little courage helps more than much knowledge, a little human sympathy more than much courage, and the least tincture of the love of God more than all.
Wow.

crickhollow - I can't believe I found someone else that has read Till We Have Faces. I first read it 10 years ago and didn't really get it. I have since re-read it several times, and it has really changed my image of God - we tend to keep Him in a box that we can handle, when actually he is SO BEYOND our wildest imagination! What do you think? I love the section at the end when she hears what all of her questions really were, and then realizes all of her questions have been answered.

[Rían]

More of my humble opinions ..

TC - Mere Christianity is great! I would put Problem of Pain next on your to-read list after Mere Christianity.

BoP - I've read the space trilogy. I liked the first one the best, then the second one, but the third one I don't care for very much, it is pretty dark and I don't get much out of it. My favorite part in the first one is where Ransom knows he needs to go to see Oyarsa. He has made that decision, and knows it's right. Then on the journey, when he is assailed by doubts and fears and isn't thinking very well, he hangs onto the fact that he needs to keep going because it is the right thing to do. He doesn't stick with it just to be obstinate; rather, because it is right (and other valid things have not come up to make him reconsider, only things that are difficult and/or scary). That thought helps me to do what I know is right. For example, I am rather shy, and if I go somewhere and see someone alone, even though I am shy and it is very difficult, I know it is the right and loving thing to do to go and talk to them and help them out, so I just make up my mind to do it and then just start walking over and not let myself think about being scared. I can't always do this, sometimes the shyness wins out, but I am getting better.

Has anyone else been helped out by CSL's writings? Can you share how?

[sun-star]

I haven't read very much of The Problem of Pain yet, but I do like it, especially the chapter on Divine Goodness. One of the most helpful things I've read by him (I can't remember where) was that "we are surrounded by immortals" - every single person we meet has an immortal soul. It's incredibly obvious but very difficult to remember at times. Also, connected to that, his constant reminders about pride, and how at the moment we think we're being very good and doing everything right, we're still committing the sin of pride. That helps me a lot :)

[Rían]

Originally posted by sun-star
I haven't read very much of The Problem of Pain yet, but I do like it, especially the chapter on Divine Goodness. One of the most helpful things I've read by him (I can't remember where) was that "we are surrounded by immortals" - every single person we meet has an immortal soul. It's incredibly obvious but very difficult to remember at times. Also, connected to that, his constant reminders about pride, and how at the moment we think we're being very good and doing everything right, we're still committing the sin of pride. That helps me a lot :)

Hmm, can't recall where the immortals thing is, I'll have to think about that. It's a good thought.

The pride thing - too often true! Occasionally though when I've done something right, esp. after a long struggle, I can have the right kind of feeling that I did well - i.e., kind of feel from God the "well done, good and faithful servant" thing, because I am acknowledging that I did not do well on my own power, but rather with lots of help from Him. God is so patient with our weaknesses, thank goodness. We just need to keep on turning to Him. And He can change us from the inside out, not just surface changes! Hooray!

[Rían]

Any updates, anyone?

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
crickhollow - I can't believe I found someone else that has read Till We Have Faces. I first read it 10 years ago and didn't really get it. I have since re-read it several times, and it has really changed my image of God - we tend to keep Him in a box that we can handle, when actually he is SO BEYOND our wildest imagination! What do you think? I love the section at the end when she hears what all of her questions really were, and then realizes all of her questions have been answered. yay! someone, finally someone who has read Til We Have Faces! It's such a powerful book. ignorance, bitter sorrow, grace, redemption. I need to re-read it again, but yes that's the absolute best part! when everything comes together, and her eyes are opened, then so are ours. Take it from the author--this was one of two of his books (the other being perelandra) that lewis loved the most.

[Rían]

crickhollow - one of the parts that I didn't get in TWHF is when (oh shoot, can't remember their names offhand, and I loaned my book out!!) anyway, near the end when the older sister (was it Orual?) tried to do things, like get fleece from the rams, and couldn't; then Psyche came after and did it with (apparently) divine help and guidance (she took the wool off of the bushes). What do you think that meant? That we can't do things on our own, but "with God, all things are possible"? But it also seemed like Psyche was doing it FOR Orual, like Christ died for OUR sin. What do you think?

[crickhollow]

it's been about a year since I read it, and my copy is at my parent's house, but here goes...weren't those things Psyche's tasks? and didn't Orual dream that she was doing them? ah! I can't remember! time for another re-read!

[Rían]

Let me know if you have any more thoughts about it, 'cause that part always confused me. I remember it the other way around, that they were Orual'stasks, and Psyche came after Orual failed and did them. I'll try to get my copy back, too :)

What are your thoughts on the space trilogy?

[crickhollow]

He does the same thing as with the narnia books, only on a more adult scale--he takes the Christian message out of its sterilized "Christian" environment, and tries to make it real to the reader.

My favorite is Perelandra (and, incidentally, that was Lewis' "other" favorite) i love the details that make the planet come alive. The fruit that Ransom eats, etc. Lewis also has an interesting spin on other aspects...the mindless cruelty of Weston (eg. killing the frogs, ripping the feathers off of the birds)

he's basically replaying the story of Adam and Eve, and the fall of man (for those who haven't read it) Ransom is sent to stop Eve from giving in to the tempter (basically, Satan in Weston's body)

The last two chapters beg to be read over and over because there's so much depth to the conversation between Ransom and the King.

Your thoughts?

[webwizard333]

Sometimes I think C. S. Lewis is my favorite author. He really makes me think about my faith and helps me to see things I wouldn't have thought of on my own. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to read all of his books yet, but I'm trying. So far, I'd say Perelandra is my favorite, the descriptions of such an alien world blew my mind.

Wouldn't you have loved to see Lewis and Tolkien together?
In a way, they did write together, their works have many similarities, such as Numenor, Oyarse (sp?) can be seen as planetary Valar, and they both shared their writings with another and discussed them.

So far I've read-The Chronicles of Narnia, The Screwtape Letters/Screwtape Proposes a Toast, Letters to Malcom Chiefly on Prayer, The Dark Tower, Boxen, and excerpts from Mere Christianity.

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
crickhollow - one of the parts that I didn't get in TWHF is when (oh shoot, can't remember their names offhand, and I loaned my book out!!) anyway, near the end when the older sister (was it Orual?) tried to do things, like get fleece from the rams, and couldn't; then Psyche came after and did it with (apparently) divine help and guidance (she took the wool off of the bushes). What do you think that meant? That we can't do things on our own, but "with God, all things are possible"? But it also seemed like Psyche was doing it FOR Orual, like Christ died for OUR sin. What do you think? okay, here we go (three more cheers for the campus library, which carries four copies of TWHF)

After Orual convinces Psyche to light the lamp and look upon the face of her husband..."Now Psyche goes out into exile. Now she must hunger and thirst and tread hard roads. Those against whom I cannot fight must do their will upon her. You, woman, shall know yourself and your work. You also shall be Psyche."p. 173-4 this was Cupid speaking to Orual--Orual was later haunted by the sound of Psyche's weeping.

Later on, Orual writes: And the continual labour of mind to which it put me began to overflow into my sleep. It was a labour of sifting and sorting, separating motive from motive and both from pretext; and this same sorting went on every night in my dreams, but in a changed fashion. I though I had before me a huge, hopeless pile of seeds, wheat, barley, poppy, rye, millet, what not, and I must sort them out and make spearate piles, each all of one kind. Why I must do it, I do not know; but infinite punishment would fall upon me if I rested a moment from my labour or if, when all was done, a single seed were in the wrong pile. In the vision with the rams, the rams trample Orual, leaving Psyche free to gather the wool caught by the thorns.

Then, while she is waiting for her trial with the gods, she finds out htat she bore Psyche's anguish, while Psyche carried out the actual tasks, and in the end, Orual is also redeemed, and the gods declare that she is Ungit no longer, but has become like Psyche.

[Rían]

Thanks for the excerpts, crickhollow! wow, some school - to have 4 copies of TWHF!! Is it a Christian school?

Sadly, I still just don't get this part :confused: What does it mean, "You also shall be Psyche"?? Can you put into words what this section means to you to try and help me out? Is there some works vs. faith meaning? I like so much of this book, that it is frustrating to "not get" a part. Or am I just trying to read too much into this part?

looking back over the thread...

Sun-star - no, I haven't read any bios, I think there is one out there, though. What I really enjoyed is Tolkien's many references to Lewis in "The Letters of JRR Tolkien". Really interesting! How is PoP reading coming along? Oh, and there are 2 CSL "letters" books out that give a wonderful light on CSL, just like Tolkien's Letters - "Letters of CS Lewis" and "Letters to an American Lady". Oh, there's also something like "Letters of CS Lewis, mainly to children" which is GREAT! I must have loaned it out, though, can't find it offhand. Whoops - also Letters to Malcolm, chiefly on prayer. wow, lots of letters.

osszie - as far as poetry, I have a book called C.S. Lewis - narrative poems. I'm not a big poetry fan, though, but you might like it. Have you started to read anything else of his?

webwizard333 - CSL is sure a wonderful writer, isn't he? Seems like a really great person, too. Have you started any more of his works? I highly recommend Problem of Pain.

And I know TinuvielChild is deep in the Sil for a school project, so I won't ask her if she has started any other CSL works :D

[crickhollow]

I love his letters to children...he discusses Tolkien's ents with one of the kids. You know why they only have two of Tolkien's letters to Lewis, right? He was a neatnick, and threw a lot of that stuff away!
hmm, I hadn't thought of the faith v. works issue, Rian, I think he was referring to Orual's sentence of bearing Psyche's pain. Or perhaps he was referring Orual's eventual redemption. Yes, that's probably more likely, because here's a quote from the last page: I cast down my eyes. Two figures, reflections, their feet to Pshyche's feet and mine, stood head downward in the water...Yes, both Psyches, both beautiful (if that mattered now) beyond all imagining, yet not exactly the same. "You also are Psyche," came a great voice.

yes, it is a christian school, and on top of that, a couple of the english profs are big on lewis and tolkien (one I know did his doctorate studies at oxford)

[Rían]

Originally posted by crickhollow
My favorite is Perelandra (and, incidentally, that was Lewis' "other" favorite) i love the details that make the planet come alive. The fruit that Ransom eats, etc. Lewis also has an interesting spin on other aspects...the mindless cruelty of Weston (eg. killing the frogs, ripping the feathers off of the birds)

he's basically replaying the story of Adam and Eve, and the fall of man (for those who haven't read it) Ransom is sent to stop Eve from giving in to the tempter (basically, Satan in Weston's body)

The last two chapters beg to be read over and over because there's so much depth to the conversation between Ransom and the King.

Your thoughts?

Absolutely!! Remember the fruit where you only occasionally get the one with the special thing inside that makes it extra good, and Ransom realizes that in our world, people would fiddle with the plant so that ALL the fruit is that way? Instead of just receiving it as a special treat from God and leaving it the way He designed it. And remember the bubble trees?

I though the portrayal of Weston as evil was brillant - just mindless cruelty, if the lady was sleeping and he couldn't work on corrupting her. Gave me the shivers....

And the last two chapters - wow! Time to read it again :)

[sun-star]

Can anyone help me with the significance of the floating islands in Perelandra? Apart from the fact he has to literally find his feet in the new world, does it mean anything, or is it just a nice detail?

[crickhollow]

Frankly, I'd just chalk it up to Lewis's creativity.

(*mutters curses against the 90 second rule*)

[Starr Polish]

Curse my public library! Curse it!

This thread got me interested in C.S. Lewis's other work (I've read the Chronicles) so I hiked on up to the library to check out some of his stuff (and return my copy of ROTK...can't wait 'til Christmas, my own copy!) and all they had was "The Screwtape Letters"...on audio book! I despise audio books.

[crickhollow]

Poor Starr Polish. Now is the time to introduce your library to the wonderful world of C.S. Lewis. Take home a hundred or so request forms, and fill them out in your spare time :D Otherwise, if your church has a library, they probably have C.S. Lewis in it. He figures pretty prominently in most church libraries that I've been in.

I just checked out Allegory of Love, Studies in Medieval and Renaissance Literature, and The Discarded Image. All three are on Medieval Literature--Lewis's specialty. and get this: They're for a paper I'm writing for Medieval History!

[Rían]

Originally posted by sun-star
Can anyone help me with the significance of the floating islands in Perelandra? Apart from the fact he has to literally find his feet in the new world, does it mean anything, or is it just a nice detail?

Yes, I agree with crickhollow, I think it's just a great imagination. I think he really wanted to give the feeling of a whole different world in this book, and he sure did! I never thought of him having to "find his feet" before, though - good observation.

[Rían]

Oh, and "hi" Starr Polish! I hope you can get your hands on lots of CSL - he's really amazing! I would highly recommend "the problem of pain" for your next read. I started re-reading it 2 nights ago and am re-amazed at it. I am hoping to get my women's Bible study to go through it. We are just getting started again (we break over the summer) and are looking for a new book.

[webwizard333]

I feel a little embarassed asking this question, but I've been unable to find a definative answer anywhere else. Was C.S. Lewis Catholic or some other Christian denomination? If he is, I'm going to spearhead the movement to have him sainted. :D If St. Thomas Aquinas was that so can he.

[Rían]

Originally posted by webwizard333
If he is, I'm going to spearhead the movement to have him sainted. :D
Isn't he a great writer? And it seems that he acted out what he wrote, too. I believe he was COE (Church of England), but I'll try to find out for sure. Which of his works have you read?

[sun-star]

He was Church of England - an "Ulster Protestant", I believe. Unfortunately that means he couldn't be a saint :mad: :D

[Aeryn]

Polish, You'll love CSL's other stuff

[Rían]

he may not be eligible to be a saint in the eyes of the Catholic church, but since he's a Christian, he's a saint in the eyes of God! :D (which is more important!)

Hello, aeryn! what are your CSL favorites?

[Starr Polish]

Ah, I can praise my school library (tis a rare thing indeed!). I found The Screwtape Letters, Perelandra and Till We Have Faces. I'm reading Screwtape right now. It's a pretty short book, but it's taking me awhile to read it, because there is definitely a lot to chew on. I love it!

[crickhollow]

See if you can get your hands on Out of the Silent Planet before you read Perelandra (yes, perelandra is much better, but it won't make any sense with out OSP)

[Rían]

Great point, crickhollow - that slipped right past me - glad you caught it.

I agree with crickhollow, Starr - Really try to read Out of the Silent Planet before Perelandra, because that will help you with LOTS of background info and will greatly enhance Perelandra.

Screwtape is good, but I find it kind of - I don't know, I suppose almost exhausting somehow, I think just to be exposed to so much evil will. However, it certainly exposes lots of good things for us to be aware of, and is good to read. I just find that I can't read it very often. Does anyone else feel this way?

*throws in one more plug for The Problem of Pain* *it's a great book!!!* :D *Try it!*

[Starr Polish]

They don;t have "The Problem of Pain" at either library! I'll probably end up buying a lot of the books myself (well, with the use of book store gift cards I've been asking for).

I'm home sick today (sinus infection), so I'll probably finish "Till We Have Faces".

I agree, Screwtape was rather...heavy. Usually I could finish a book like that in about an hour, but it took me three days to read, because I would stop and think about what I was reading. (Another reason I prefer books to audio books). I did learn a lot, just from one reading, and I had to set the book down and clear my head when I found that I was guilty of many of the things Screwtape talked about.

[Rían]

Sorry about the sinus infection, I'm just getting over one myself. I was sick as a dog all weekend and finally got antibiotics Monday a.m. and am feeling half-human now *woof! uh, sorry!*

I can't wait to hear what you think about TWHF! Crickhollow is the only other person in the WORLD that I know that has read it, and now there will be another person! yay!

[Rían]

Any progress/new thoughts on Lewis works, anyone?

[Starr Polish]

I finished "Till We Have Faces", and I don't know what to say. Working on "Out of Silent Planet". I'm also reading a book called "Illusions: The Tale of a Reluctant Messiah", which a composer is basing a song on (that our school commisioned! How cool is that!)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
I finished "Till We Have Faces", and I don't know what to say.
yeah, I read it for the first time 15 years ago, and thought it was totally useless for anything but an interesting (but strange) story. Then I picked it up again in a bored moment, and... well, try re-reading what Crickhollow and I wrote a few posts back about it. Or try again in 15 years! And I'm glad you got Silent Planet to read before Perelandra. Please let us know what you think about that one, I'd love to hear :)

[crickhollow]

I'm reading Allegory of Love for my paper on Medieval Literature. It's tons harder (less conversational, more academic), but still interesting. Anything Lewis, right?

[Rían]

*searches thru Lewis archives* Drat, can't find it! (Allegory of Love) I wonder if I loaned it out, or just never bought it? Also, I seem to be missing "the four loves" or whatever that book is called... I need to start a lending-list sheet or something. Yes, "anything Lewis" is just fine with me! I'd like to discuss some of his letters when I get some extra time, they're fascinating. Have you guys read them?

Starr, if you would, could you please elaborate on "don't know what to say"? I'm curious if your reaction was like my first one, which also included "has Lewis gone wacko?" :) But as you can see if you read our earlier posts, crickhollow and I both think it has some really profound thoughts in it.

Have you reached Malacandra yet, or are they still on earth?

[crickhollow]

How about the great divorce, Rian or SP? there's a load of stuff to digest in that one!

You know, I think you can surface read lewis and enjoy the basic story, but when you go back over it, and mull over each assertion, metaphor, and plot twist, you get so much more out of it. He's not like Dostoyevski or someone that should come with a warning label for inexperienced readers, but going slowly and thoughtfully yields so much!

[webwizard333]

Any progress/new thoughts on Lewis works, anyone?
I just started reading Till We Have Faces.

[Starr Polish]

I've been far too busy to read much lately, hopefully that will change soon. I left "Out of Silent Planet" in the TAG room today...poo. No, they're still on the space ship. I'm going to have to read that part over again to understand what Weston is saying..oi.

Hmm...well, I really don't know what to say about TWHF. it didn't seem to have any great significance to me as a book, other than being a great retelling of a myth. I'm not very good at picking up on things the first read through (I can't believe all the stuff I missed in LOTR!). I found it very sad, but horrifying at the same time.

[sun-star]

I've started reading a collection of Lewis' literary essays. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near as well-read as he is, so I don't understand most of it :rolleyes:, but at least I'm learning something.

I'm also re-reading a triple biography of him, Tolkien and Charles Williams. Very interesting.

[Rían]

Oh, I've always wanted to know more about Charles Williams - I know Tolkien wasn't exactly wild about him, and in Tolkien's opinion, Lewis was too influenced by him. I know nothing about CW. Could you fill me in a bit as you read? I'd appreciate it! :)

And for all - what do you think of The Great Divorce? For me, it was the first thing that gave a reasonable answer to the dilemma "how can anyone in Heaven be happy if there is even one soul in Hell?"

[Starr Polish]

For all my fellow Lewis fans:

Just found out there's a movie out there based on his life, starring Anthony Hopkins. It's called Shadowland, I think.

[Rían]

OMGOODNESS, Starr (and others) you simply MUST see that movie! It is wonderful!!! (and better than the Christian version, I've heard). There's one part in there - (we saw it in a theater the first time) - I have NEVER heard an audience so quiet!! Wonderful, and really funny, too! Anyone else seen it?

[crickhollow]

I thought Anthony Hopkins made a good CS Lewis, even though he doesn't look a thing like him.

It's a great movie.

[Rían]

Starr, please let me know after you've seen it - I was going to put a couple of comments about it here, but I think I'd rather wait until you've seen it.

[Starr Polish]

I'll have to find it first. I have no idea if local videostores carry it.

Go ahead and post, use the spoiler thingy.

[sun-star]

Oh, I've always wanted to know more about Charles Williams - I know Tolkien wasn't exactly wild about him, and in Tolkien's opinion, Lewis was too influenced by him. I know nothing about CW. Could you fill me in a bit as you read? I'd appreciate it!

I'll have a go :). Well, Charles Williams was born in 1886 and, unlike Tolkien and Lewis, was educated at a grammar school and didn't complete university for financial reasons. He taught evening classes and worked for the Oxford University Press (based in London), and wrote some novels. While proof-reading Lewis' Allegory of Love for publication, and admiring it, he received a letter from Lewis praising his book 'The Place of the Lion'. They corresponded, and when the OUP moved to Oxford at the beginning of WW2 Williams began to attend Inklings meetings. He remained in Oxford for the rest of his life and died in 1945.

I haven't read any of his books, but apparently he was very interested in magic and the supernatural (this seems to be what Tolkien disapproved of) and was an expert on Dante's idea of love. I believe most of his books are out of print. Hope that helps :)

[Starr Polish]

Update! I'm on about chapter 12 of "Out of Silent Planet", when he's been with the hrossa for awhile. Hmm...interesting, Thulcandra. Also, I don't think the séroni are as bad as Devine and Weston thought they were.

What was that thing in the water that got Devine? :eek:

[Rían]

Ooohhhh, interesting parts ahead .... chpt 13 and the first part of 14 are some of my favorite parts - keep us posted! :)

[Starr Polish]

Ah, a hnakra, of course.

I'm now on Perelandra. I didn't realize until the end of "Out of Silent Planet that the planet was, well...Mars

[Rían]

Well, didja like it? Huh? Huh? Funny how the Hrossa prefaced everything with 'h', wasn't it? Just one of those funny little details that make the world more real, like Tolkien threw in all the time. And the part I really liked, and I think is applicable to Christians, is how Ransom kept on with his resolution to go to Oyarsa, because he knew it was right, even when he got scared.

Perelandra is much more serious - keep us posted! It's fun to "go thru them again for the first time" with you! :) It gets rather heavy in the end.... and then really glorious.

[sun-star]

Funny how the Hrossa prefaced everything with 'h', wasn't it? Just one of those funny little details that make the world more real, like Tolkien threw in all the time.
Indeed. Interestingly, however, Tolkien himself wasn't too keen on the philology in OOTSP. It's hardly on the scale of Elvish, is it?

[Starr Polish]

Perelandra is harder for me to get into...I've never been a huge fan of sci-fi as it is. I really liked OOTSP, when I finally found time to read it I flew through it.

Interesting...are the eldila, or Oyarsa (Oyarses?) angels? Thus, is Thulcandra's eldil Satan?

[Rían]

No, Tolkien's languages are in a class by themselves!!! Absolutely incredible!!!!

I didn't mean to compare their language skills, what I was trying to say was just those funny little details that they both put in that have nothing to do with the story, but just give the 'world' a more real feel. Tolkien commented that he didn't want to clear up all the mentions of various things in ME, he liked the feel that there were unexplained stories. (If that makes sense ... he said it much better, of course! :) )

OOTSP is much more enjoyable to me, too, but Perelandra is worth the read - some v. good insights. Definitely a heavier book, though. I haven't re-read That Hideous Strength in years - just too yucky for me, and the insights in it were not worth wading thru the depressing stuff, IMO. What do you think, crick?

Re the eldila/Oyarsa question - :)

[Starr Polish]

ARG! Don't just smile at me. ;)

Well, toodles, I'm off to read a bit.

[Starr Polish]

My local library had Shadowlands! I'm going to watch it tonight if my stepfather gives up his post at the TV (he is already glued to that thing for nearly every hour he's home, and now we have a DVD player, giving him another excuse to watch the idiot box).

[crickhollow]

What do you think, crick?
THS was really scary! I couldn't read it at night. I mean, I did, but I shouldn't have.

To be honest, I found all of the Space trilogies difficult to get into. I think I mentioned before that Lewis wasn't allegorical in the strictest sense, his idea was to take these stories that we are so familiar with, and strip them of their sterilized, sunday-school surroundings, so that the meaning that had been lost could be found.

So, Perelandra is one of the most liberal of all of Lewis's "allegories". If we could do creation over again, if there was an extra character, if the dynamics were just a bit different. All of these hypothetical situations Lewis explores in Perelandra.

as far as THS, I really loved Lewis's portrayal of Merlin and how he handles the 'magical' aspect of this character, which tends to get so many Christians up in arms.

[Starr Polish]

Hmm...Ransom has just discovered the Green Lady. Why doesn't she know the word for peace? Is it because she's never heard of war?

I love the floating islands...very cool.

[Rían]

Starr - good observation :) An interesting character will enter the scene shortly.... and yes, I think the floating islands are cool, too - very imaginative.

crick - your comment re Merlin made me pull out THS again, think I'll re-read it (but Definitely not at night!!!) I just scanned it for a few minutes today and found some good stuff, but it is pretty icky and depressing overall. NOT a yearly read by any means, IMO! but it's probably been about 10 years, so I think I'll read it again.

[Rían]

OK, I'm about 1/3 of the way thru THS - I'm glad I'm re-reading it so far. There's lots of good things to think about. I think one of the most important is the way he exposes how much the media influences people's thinking. The various newspaper articles that Mark puts out are brillantly devious and deceptive. Lewis really hated newspapers and thought them worthless to read, basically because the news was always written from a slanted angle.

[Starr Polish]

I'm up to Chapter 12 (you guys are scaring me with your accounts of THS...:(). Hmm...

Something caught my interest rather quickly:

Often the Un-Man was unexpectedly repulsed by some simplicity which it seemd not to have anticipiated. Often, too, Ransom's own contributions to the terrible debate were for the moment successful. There were times when he thought, "Thank God! We've won at last." But the enemy was never tired, and Ransom grew more weary all the time; and presently he thought he could see signs that the Lady was becoming tired too.

Often times when arguing my case for Christianity, I get tired and bogged down by the sheer stubborn-ness of others, and irritated (as Ransom did when he began yelling at the Lady later). I feel like they have so many facts that they put so much faith that I can't ever win, and I should just back down and crawl back into my own little hole.

Also..."My name is also Ransom". Still trying to grasp what's going on there.

[Rían]

Starr - re your comment about "arguing my case for Christianity" - yes, I know what you mean, but I've been doing that somewhat on the evolution thread and it's been really different 'cause I'm approaching it a different way. Let me see if I can express it so it makes sense, and maybe it will help you.

At the top level, it's involved several things -
(1) I don't have to "win" the argument, I just have to obey what I think God is having me do and say (and if I do that, I win! Besides, I've already "won", or rather it's been given to me as a free gift, the greatest thing in the world! a right relationship to God.) I may be just planting a seed that someone else will see bloom down the road.
(2) I need to also be in obedience to the other responsibilities of my life. In other words, I am NOT responsible for "saving" someone else; that's God's responsibility to make sure they have a fair opportunity. So it is wrong for me to neglect God-given responsibilities to myself, my family and my friends because of a mistaken sense of "OMGoodness, I MUST respond immediately to all of these posts!" In fact, I've said several times on the thread that whoever wants to hear from me will probably have to wait a few days because I cannot neglect my family because as a Christian, it is a high priority for me. And actually, as I thought about it, I thought that that's important for them to hear, anyway - rather a contrast to the world's views. Also, waiting for an answer probably gives them more time to think about things.

Anyway, just 2 things that have helped me be able to post on a highly controversial and emotional thread and still be at peace and serve healthy dinners! (well, most of the time :D)

Oh, also I've felt led to only respond to SOME of the posts, not ALL of the posts. And I felt a very heavy burden to do so, and when I had responded, I felt totally at peace. As I said in the thread, I have such a great compassion for people who actually think that they are products of only beneficial mutations over a great deal of time, and I know God has even more compassion for them. What a terribly sad belief to have.

Anyway, I hope that might help you, it sure did for me, especially the whole "I don't have to win this, I just have to obey God" idea.

[Rían]

Yes, the "my name is also Ransom" is interesting ... it will be explained later on, if I remember correctly.

AND BTW, I stayed up late last night and finished THS (I'm a terrifically fast reader) and I really don't know quite what to say, because I came across the reasons why I didn't read it again for so long. There's some really gruesome stuff at the end. Perhaps Lewis was really fed up with a "pretty" face being put on evil; I don't know, but it's really pretty awful. The first half has lots of good insights, like I said, but I don't know if the whole book is worth reading; I would definitely not recommend it for younger readers (12, 13 or so). I believe you're 16 or so, is that right?

What do you think, crick? I'm talking about from the dinner party where the languages get confused on to the end, pretty much. But how can someone read HALF of a book???? I don't quite know what to say.

[Starr Polish]

Yeah, I'm sixteen. I've always had a fairly accelerated reading level (I had a 12th grade reading level in 4th grade), and I think I can handle gruesome writing fairly well. Still, I was a bit taken aback at the destruction of the animals on Perelandra when I came across that, but probably for the same reason Ransom was.

And yes, I need to remind myself that talking about God is not about 'winning', but it's something I'll have to learn. I absolutely hate losing, in any form (but I'm getting better!_. Not to the point that I'm a sore loser, or winner, but, well...for example, I'm in track, and I'm not the best runner, but I'm often the anchor (last runner) in the two mile relay. The anchor is one of the most important runners, because we have to catch up all of the slack the rest of the team made. Our two mile relay teams aren't very good, and we're usually last when it's my turn to run, with the other girl about fifty yards ahead. Let me tell you, it's hard to catch up to that, but I've done it...bah..enough gloating. ;)

I'm almost done with Perelandra, going to get THS soon.

[webwizard333]

I've been thinking for a little bit, how to say what I want to about Till We Have Faces as after reading it, I wasn't too sure about my opinions on this. I had started out really liking it, particularly the dialogue about sacrifice, which I was mentally relating to Jesus Christ, as it was the sort of thing I expect and enjoy from Lewis' books. I also liked how he described her uncertainty concerning her actions and her own feelings about what was happening to her. The characters were especially believable for me, partially becayse I have a sister who sometimes behaves the way hers (the superficial one) did. The Fox's talks about the poets' lies had added interest for me, in part because we're studying Ovid in my English classes who looked at his own mythical works as lies and freely admitted it. My problem with it, for me, came at the end. For me, the good sister was still in the right and the gods were wrong. Lewis wrote her struggle in such a way that I was really pitying her and hating the gods, who I feel did not satisfactorly answer her complaints. So, Perelandra remains my favourite of his works. Btw, crickhollow, your post concerning Perlandra as his most liberal allegory really opened up that aspect of what Lewis tried to do with his stories, thanks.

[Rían]

Hi, webwizard333!

I'm so glad to find someone else who has read TWHF! It's a complex work, isn't it?

May I ask if you are a Christian? I don't recall seeing whether or not you have said you are. I only ask because I'll know how to word my replies a little better, as Christians usually share some common experiences.

from your post:
My problem with it, for me, came at the end. For me, the good sister was still in the right and the gods were wrong. Lewis wrote her struggle in such a way that I was really pitying her and hating the gods, who I feel did not satisfactorly answer her complaints.

By "the good sister", did you mean Psyche? How did you think the gods were wrong in regards to her? Or did you mean Orual? (or did you mean Psyche in the 2nd sentence and Orual in the 3rd?) Did you realize that Orual herself was completely satisfied with the answer of the gods? Did you see how the gods revealed to her what she was REALLY thinking, as opposed to how she had worded her thoughts? Anyway, I'd like to discuss it, if you would :)

[webwizard333]

It's a complex work, isn't it? May I ask if you are a Christian? I don't recall seeing whether or not you have said you are. I only ask because I'll know how to word my replies a little better, as Christians usually share some common experiences.
In terms of its complexity, very much so, but still retaining much of the basic mythology on which it was founded. I am a practicing Catholic Christian.

By "the good sister", did you mean Psyche? How did you think the gods were wrong in regards to her? Or did you mean Orual? (or did you mean Psyche in the 2nd sentence and Orual in the 3rd?) Did you realize that Orual herself was completely satisfied with the answer of the gods? Did you see how the gods revealed to her what she was REALLY thinking, as opposed to how she had worded her thoughts? Anyway, I'd like to discuss it, if you would
Unfortunately, I read the book a week ago, and while I can easily remember plots and summaries, my weakness lies in remembering character names. By the good sister, I meant the protagonist, Orual (thanks for giving me her name). I did see how Orual was completely satisfied with their answer, but I was not, I'm referring to answering her complaints only with love. By the part of showing her what she really thought, do you mean when she was reading her book and seeing vindictiveness in her writing, if so I caught on to that, but I never saw that in the first part of the book and so I never knew where she had altered events in her writing out of her emotions.

[crickhollow]

A quick re-reading may give you some of those answers, ww333. Most particularly anywhere Orual restates that she genuinely acted for the sole benefit of Psyche. Over and over again: it wasn't my fault. I didn't know. Psyche shouldn't have left me.

It is important to realize that the gods didn't twist the past, as Orual claims after her run-in with the priest in the forest. Orual herself twisted her account of the events.

most of the book was written well before Orual's trial. She was still full of bitterness and denial.

That whole schpeil may not change your mind, but there you have it anyway.your post concerning Perlandra as his most liberal allegory really opened up that aspect of what Lewis tried to do with his stories, thanks. *pats self on back* You're most welcome. Happy to be of service.

[Rían]

Any updates for us, Starr?

[Starr Polish]

I was going to start THS, but I haven't yet. I still have it, it's not due for awhile but I highly doubt I'll be reading it soon. Something rather serious is going on with my family right now, and I've decided to dive into some literature that I know will lift my spirits (LOTR, mostly). The reports you've given on THS made it lose its appeal, at least for the time being. Right now isn't a good time for dark literature.

[Rían]

I think that's a good idea - it's kinda like Screwtape - rather a downer, although good info in it. Save it for another time - it'll keep. I'll certainly keep you and your family in my prayers.

[Rían]

Any updates from CSL readers?

Here's a poem from CSL that I like. I originally heard it in a song, then found out that he wrote it. I am NOT a poem person in general, but I really like this one:


As the Ruin Falls

All this is flashy rhetoric about loving you.
I never had a selfless thought since I was born.
I am mercenary and self-seeking through and through:
I want God, you, all friends, merely to serve my turn.

Peace, re-assurance, pleasure, are the goals I seek,
I cannot crawl one inch outside my proper skin:
I talk of love - a scholar's parrot may talk Greek-
But, self-imprisoned, always end where I begin.

Only that now you have taught me (but how late) my lack.
I see the chasm. And everything you are was making
My heart into a bridge by which I might get back
From exile, and grow man. And now the bridge is breaking.

For this I bless you as the ruin falls. The pains
You give me are more precious than all other gains.

[GrayMouser]

My first post at the Moot, though I've been posting at another Tolkien forum for a few years now.

My first contact with fantasy was "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" at the age of eight, and I've been a Lewis fan ever since, even though that encounter led to a traumatic event (well, traumatic for an eight-year-old, anyway.)

As for his other works I've read the Space Trilogy, Screwtape Letters, Problem of Pain- the latter two many years ago- and just last year, Till We Have Faces which I thought was great but don't feel able to comment on till I have a chance to re-read.

Of the Space Trilogy, Perelandra is my least favorite (though still very good!)- too many purple passages; my favorite descriptive stretch is actually the journey underground- though the contest between Ransom and the Unman is fascinating.

I love the part in OOTSP where Ransom is trying to interpret for Weston:

Weston: "Life is greater than any system of morality; her claims are absolute."

"He says", began Ransom "that living creatures are stronger than the question whether an act is bent or good- no, that can't be right- he says it is better to be alive and bent than dead- no- he says, he says, - I cannot say what he says, Oyarsa, in your language."

As for the floating islands, if the question is why was Perelandra a watery world, that was a common conception of the time, Venus being enshrouded in clouds- just as Mars was seen to be a dying planet where an ancient civilisation had dug the canals to preserve themselves. Venus was seen as a younger more vigorous planet- kind of a Jurassic world, and Earth was the middle sibling. (Misconceptions, as it turned out, alas for Romance)


Lewis adapted these cliches of a thousand science fiction stories to his own ends, though I think he derived the ideas of the canals as actually being great valleys of refuge from Olaf Stapledon, whom he acknowledges in the introduction.

BTW, I think I recall reading somewhere lately that Tolkien hated the Screwtape Letters- I believe it was actually a quote from one of Tolkien's letters. Am I mixed up here- does anyone have any info?

Anyway, I've seen some great postings on this site- I've been lurking for a week or so- and I'm honoured to join you all.

[crickhollow]

Welcome, GrayMouser, from a fellow Tolkien and Lewis lover. I don't know about tolkien hating The Screwtape letters--I would hope that he like it, because it is dedicated to him. Lewis himself wasn't fond of SL. His two favorites are Til We Have Faces, and Perelandra. I think that he saw SL as not his best work, and was therefore a bit confounded at the cultish popularity it achieved, especially in America.

[Rían]

Welcome, GrayMouser, from a fellow Tolkien and Lewis lover! (Didn't someone just say that :D) I hope you like it here.

from letter # 252 of JRRT
Also I was wryly amused to be told (D. Telegraph) that 'Lewis himself was never very fond of The Screwtape Letters' - his best-seller (250,000). He dedicated it to me. I wondered why. Now I know - says they.

Yes, the translation part in OOTSP is hilarious! And really is an excellent device to show the deception behind what Weston and Devine are saying.

And it took me about 20 years to really understand and appreciate Till We Have Faces - a wonderful book, and very profound, IMO. It looks like you're a bit quicker than I am, as you already like it :)

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Welcome, GrayMouser, from a fellow Tolkien and Lewis lover! (Didn't someone just say that :D) I hope you like it here.



And it took me about 20 years to really understand and appreciate Till We Have Faces - a wonderful book, and very profound, IMO. It looks like you're a bit quicker than I am, as you already like it :)

A belated thank you to both for the welcome- ( I'm a really SLOOOW poster.)

And, Rian, please note- I just said I liked TWHF- I never claimed to understand it:)

Also, I came upon it about twenty years after the other Lewis books I've read, so maybe time makes a difference.

[inked]

Lewis' nearly lost translation of the Aeneid is due out in May.

Full article here: http://www.narniafans.com/archives/11515#more-11515

Sampling: "C.S. Lewis’s Lost Aeneid: Arms and the Exile

It was a translation that he would read frequently to the Inklings, which was a group that met regularly which included Tolkien. The work was believed to have been lost to a bonfire back in 1964, a year after Lewis’s death. Lewis’s secretary, Walter Hooper, was going through some of his material and found the lost manuscript. The complete translation will be published on May 3, 2011."

:thumb: I'm gonna read it!

[Midge]

Wow, Inked. I can't imagine how long you searched to dig up this old thread.

[inked]

Oh, somewhere around 0.19 seconds on the search engine intraMoot and less than 30 seconds locating the thread.

Way cool that there's going to be a new CSL book - even a translation.:heart:

[Tessar]

Oooh, I'm quite interested to read that as well.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ho, ho! I love the Aeneid! This should be fun. :D