The Choices of Master Samwise

[sun-star]

I've been reading The Two Towers again, and this struck me:

The voices began to move away. Sam heard the sound of feet receding. He was recovering from his shock, and now a wild fury was on him. "I got it all wrong!" he cried. "I knew I would. Now they've got him, the devils! the filth! Never leave your master, never, never: that was my right rule. And I knew it in my heart. May I be forgiven!"

Isn't he being a bit hard on himself? OK, so this is a tense moment (he's just found out that Frodo isn't dead) and 'never leave your master' is obviously one of his mottoes - but what else could he have done?

I could understand Sam being angry with himself at first. But Tolkien also says that this (leaving Frodo and taking the Ring) was 'altogether against the grain of his nature'. Does that mean he was wrong to do it? What does Sam (and possibly Tolkien?) think he should have done?

Any thoughts? Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything about it.

[katya]

i wondered about that myself, actually. it seems to me that tolkien belives that sam should've stayed with frodo. but that seemed ridiculously silly at the time. it was either stay and die, or at least try to finish the mission and save everyone else. maybe this is saying something about losing hope, even when all seems to be lost. i dont think sam was wrong to leave though.

[Elfstone]

shut up you f**:) :) :) :) :) :)

[Ñólendil]

Sure Sam was being hard on himself. As smug as he was, I think it was also in his nature to beat himself up all the time.

But, of course, not only did he do the right thing, according to what he thought had happened, it was crucial to the quest. If Sam hadn't taken the Ring and moved away, the Orks would have found it on Frodo.

[katya]

ya i thought about that too. but were there a lot of orcs? i dont remember. were there few enough for sam to handle?

[ArwenEvenstar]

i don't think that sam could have taken all the orcs on

[Rían]

I've sure wondered about that, too - it seems to me that if Sam hadn't left, the Ring would have been captured... but he "knew in his heart" he shouldn't have left? Was he just wrong? Does anyone know of any comments Tolkien left on this subject, in Letters or somewhere else?

[Elbereth]

Nolendil's right, if Sam had not taken the Ring, it would have been found on Frodo. I think that Sam did know, 'in his heart' that Frodo was not dead, but I also think he did the right thing in taking the Ring, and he and Tolkien knew this. The way I read it, Tolkien saying things like 'it was against his grain' is commenting on Sam's character, not one what was right or wrong to do.

[katya]

ya i suppose it was really really good that he did chose to leave both because it was the right thing to do, and because it was awesome in the long run that he did get the ring away. but it seems like there is something that says well maybe he should've stayed, except for that wouldve been disatorous. but he wouldn't have known that beforehand its really hard to say. but oh well because he didn't really leave him since he did after all rescue him after he was taken. i dont know though. i think he should've left and it was good he did and that's all i have to say.

[johnnyrod]

Poor old Sam, he gives himself the thick end of the wedge when it comes to deprecation. My take on it is that it all happens very quickly, so he does what he thinks he should. He doesn't want to leave Frodo but he can't very well bury him there and then, and probably would've carried no more remorse than that until he found out that his master wasn't dead. He's always trying, and that means he doesn't give himself too many breaks.

's only my opinion of course.

[samwise of the shire]

I think that Sam did what he did out of love for Frodo and out of love for The Shire. Let's suppose Frodo HAD died. If Sam took the Ring and destroyed it he would have had a better chance at seeing his master again, and if Frodo had been found with the Ring the Shire along with the whole of Middle Earth would have been doomed. I think that at that point in the Quest Sam had begun to realize he might never see Rose or Tom or Nibs or the Gaffer again, and so because he knew there might be that possiblity he took the Ring to safe those bcak home that he loved. And alot of times you have to do things you dont want to do to protect those you love who are indanger.
Sam's nature is a giving one, not caring about what happens to him but always making sure others were taken care of, and if he found he was indangering or hurting someone then he'd kick himself in the butt for it. Even with Gollum he tied the rope as loosely as possible so as to not cause any harm, and he HATED Gollum.
Sam is DEFFINITALY the COOLEST fictional character EVER. He's got a soft heart despite his riseliance(sp?)
Cheers,
Sam

[katya]

*sniff* that was beautiful samwise of the shire. poor sam. poor everyone.

[Artanis]

Sam indeed proved himself as a great hero there. Imagine his choises: To take the Ring from Frodo on the purpose of himself bringing it to destruction, even if he wasn't the one appointed to do so, and thus abandon his beloved friend and master and leave him to the orcs. Or to stay with his master, and not take the Ring, and by that be responsible for the ruin of the Shire and ME when the orcs, and eventually Sauron, got hold of the Ring. An impossible choice for him, and moreover a choice he had to take in a hurry, terrified and lonely as he was.

I think Sam would have blamed himself no matter what he had chosen. He always had trust in Frodo, and suddenly he was on his own. I agree with Ñólendil, it was Sam's nature to be hard on himself.

[Starr Polish]

You've all pretty summed up what I was thinking.

I remember when I first read this chapter, I threw the book across the room (as many others have, I hear). Most definitely the best chapter in LOTR, in my humble opinion.

Sam went against his grain in a sense that if he had done what he truly wanted, he would have stayed with Frodo, but with disastrous results. Something, most likely his good hobbit sense, made him realize he needed to take the ring and at least keep it away from evil hands for the time being to save all that he knew and loved.

And I echo Samwise of the Shire in saying that he is the best fictional character to ever be written.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Artanis
Sam indeed proved himself as a great hero there. Imagine his choises: To take the Ring from Frodo on the purpose of himself bringing it to destruction, even if he wasn't the one appointed to do so, and thus abandon his beloved friend and master and leave him to the orcs. Or to stay with his master, and not take the Ring, and by that be responsible for the ruin of the Shire and ME when the orcs, and eventually Sauron, got hold of the Ring. An impossible choice for him, and moreover a choice he had to take in a hurry, terrified and lonely as he was.

I think Sam would have blamed himself no matter what he had chosen. He always had trust in Frodo, and suddenly he was on his own. I agree with Ñólendil, it was Sam's nature to be hard on himself.

when you put it like that its not that hard a descision at all. stay and be caught by a load of orcs with your best mate and seal the doom of middle earth or go off by yourself. the reason sam does so well in the books is quite simple he is frodo servent i love the part when he does a soliqui so this was my task to die with my master :( (if thats not in the movie ill kill you PJ)

[Ealenwe]

Sam, dear Sam. I believe Sam made all his choices based on his abiding love of Frodo. He was always a bit hard on himself. Sam was a hobbit of the earth, salt of the earth if you will. Even his vision of power was that of a gardener! Galadriel saw his loyalty and mentioned the quests hope lay in that loyalty. Sam couldn't bear the thought of leaving the 'dead' Frodo but knew the imparativeness of the task at hand. And when he learned that Frodo was not dead, he did not hesitate to rescue and return the Ring to Frodo.

Sam's unwavering devotion and optimism make him one of the most subtley strong characters in the whole story. I think Frodo would not have completed his task without Sam, yet Sam would not have even had such a thought of himself. He did what he did because it had to be done, in the same way one pulls a weed in a garden.

[Nurvingiel]

Sam did do the right thing in taking the Ring. And he rescued Frodo later anyway. Plus, Sam is one of only two people in all of history to willingly give up the Ring. The other is Bilbo.

(Even though Sam had it for less than a week, he gave it up IN Mordor, and without Gandalf to help him.)

[Blackboar]

If I was Sam I would of picked Frodo up onto my shoulders if I thought he was dead and struggled very much to put him down in a safe place (as safe as possible which could mean climbing down ths stairs with him) and laid him to rest there.
Of course if I was Sam then I wouldn't know all the consiquences.

Then I would try and get on with the mission.

I would of probably taken him back towards Gondor or somthing but then I'm an idiot :rolleyes:

A total idiot:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by sun-star
I could understand Sam being angry with himself at first. But Tolkien also says that this (leaving Frodo and taking the Ring) was 'altogether against the grain of his nature'. Does that mean he was wrong to do it? What does Sam (and possibly Tolkien?) think he should have done?

That is a really interesting question. I think he is being too hard on himself. He had to make a very hard decision: to choose between Frodo and the future of Middle Earth. Remember he is only an ordinary hobbit from the Shire, quite unprepared for such a great task. I don't think he was wrong to take the ring, for although harsh, saving Middle Earth is more important than staying with his master. I don't think he could have sat by Frodo and let the orcs come. He could perhaps slay a few orcs, but in the end they would have taken Sam and Frodo and the ring. Sam was more intelligent than that; I'm sure he couldn't have sat and watched the ring fall into the enemy's hands.

Sam has always been my favorite character and IMO (and Tolkiens!) is the hero of the quest. My favorite part of the book is where he finds Frodo and cries: Mr. Frodo, my dear! It's Sam. I've come!

[Eothain]

Yes he was being hard on himself.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

I've read that when JRRT read that part to CS Lewis and others, they wept. It's one of the best, if not the best, scene in the whole book -- Sam is so human at that point, and his reactions so understandable.

I think Tolkien was setting Sam up for his greatest challenge that would come a bit later: giving the Ring back to Frodo. Thus, he had to first take the Ring.

When Sam gave the Ring back to Frodo (OK, he didn't just say "here it is" and plunk it in Frodo's hand, but he did lift the chain and Ring off before Frodo, crazed by the Ring, grabbed it from him), he became the first Ringbearer since Bilbo to give it up willingly, and unlike Bilbo, he had no help...just his love of Frodo. The really critical part was right after Frodo had grabbed the Ring back -- what would be Sam's reaction? With just about anybody else, it would have led to a terrible fight. Sam just knelt there with tears in his eyes, which besides showing that he himself had escaped the Ring's lure also brought Frodo back to his senses.

A little touch of love there in that awful tower at a moment when the Ring should have driven these two apart and betrayed them to its Master -- how wonderful! To lead up to it, it had to be stressed earlier that Sam's nature wasn't to leave Frodo, even if the Quest required it. Thus it was said, when he learned that Frodo was alive, he abandoned the Quest and chased after his Master. Yet the net effect was to save the Quest. Very complex, that.

[barrelrider110]

Gaffer Gamgee said:
“‘Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you,’ I says to him [Sam].”
Up to now, Sam’s life had been ruled by proverbs such as this. He and his Gaffer were of uneducated rural stock who saw themselves more as servants, and generally not the type of people who used discretionary thinking. According to Gamgee, whether right or wrong this is the way of the world, and make no mistake about it, the world is a better place for it.

Sam’s choice went against his grain, because as he saw it, Frodo’s job was to cast the ring into the fire; Sam’s job was to help Frodo, not take over for him.

He reluctantly put on the ring because he believed Frodo was dead, and that being the case, there was nobody else to take the ring to Orodruin. When he discovered his error in thinking Frodo had died, he naturally beat himself up for jumping to conclusions.

[samwiselvr2008]

I think that Sam was being to hard on himself, at the moment when he left, what else could he have done? He thought that Frodo was dead! I always wondered why he didn't check Frodo's heart to see if it was beeting, like just see if you could fill it/hear it, but maybe Hobbit's and other races didn't know about it in that time period?

[RosieCotton]

Originally posted by samwise of the shire
I think that Sam did what he did out of love for Frodo and out of love for The Shire. Let's suppose Frodo HAD died. If Sam took the Ring and destroyed it he would have had a better chance at seeing his master again, and if Frodo had been found with the Ring the Shire along with the whole of Middle Earth would have been doomed. I think that at that point in the Quest Sam had begun to realize he might never see Rose or Tom or Nibs or the Gaffer again, and so because he knew there might be that possiblity he took the Ring to safe those bcak home that he loved. And alot of times you have to do things you dont want to do to protect those you love who are indanger.
Sam's nature is a giving one, not caring about what happens to him but always making sure others were taken care of, and if he found he was indangering or hurting someone then he'd kick himself in the butt for it. Even with Gollum he tied the rope as loosely as possible so as to not cause any harm, and he HATED Gollum.
Sam is DEFFINITALY the COOLEST fictional character EVER. He's got a soft heart despite his riseliance(sp?)
Cheers,
Sam

Wow! Great post, and I couldn't agree more!

[LovesBeren]

Parenting has a lot to do with Sam being hard on himself. The Gaffer always puts him down. To me it's funny but sad when Sam refers to something about "What the Gaffer would have to say about it..." However, I don't feel the Gaffer's motivation is to belittle Sam. I think it's generational... it was the way he was raised too. It's reverse psychology where a parent tells their child they "won't amount to anything" so they hopefully go out try to prove you wrong. It might be questionable parenting...but the Ol' Gaffer no doubt loved his son.

Sam may also feel, although somewhat educated in "his letters," that he doesn't have "academic intellect" of Frodo and others of the fellowship. He's not ashamed, but feels he's out of his league. I think in this situation he based his decision based on what thought others (Frodo, Strider, or Gandalf) would do. Afterwards he realized it was not prudent to try to emulate those who are so wise and that he should just be himself... to relying on keen senses, gut feelings and heart and have proved faithful to him thus far. I feel the sharp self-analysis is because Sam very reflective thinker... a very good quality.. (I always admire the reflective thinking of the "Sam's" of the world...just wish they would change that "inner voice" from a parent berating to a kinder tone like a trusted counselor.)

Another thought... I think it is powerful lesson to all of us to be true to ourselves in challenging situations and not try to second guess ourselves and not be completely guided by doing what others might think we should do.

Tolkien always makes me think... what a joy!

LovesBeren

[cassiopeia]

I don't think Bilbo gave up the ring willingly (like Sam does later on in the story), it takes a lot of prodding from Gandalf before he releases the ring.

Gandalf says in the FOTR:
'A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.'
Sam is remarkable in the fact that, later on in the ROTK, he takes the ring from around his neck and offers it to Frodo. Frodo then snatches the ring from him. Did Sam abandon the ring (but Gandalf says nobody ever does that) or did the ring abandon Sam (and why?)?

[Elf Girl]

I think the Ring abandoned Sam because it had done much more work corrupting Frodo than him.

[Quercus]

I think LovesBeren is on the right track, Sam was always sputtering about what the Gaffer would say. Sam was very fond of his dad and I think that the Gaffer was fond of Sam, but I don’t believe that he thought Sam was too terribly bright or reliable. Remember how skeptical the Gaffer was when they returned to the Shire? Frodo had a hard time convincing him that Sam had been an asset on the quest.

I think that a lot of Sam’s self doubt was a direct result of things the Gaffer had said to him. I also think that part of the reason Sam was so loyal to Frodo was because Frodo always praised Sam and had confidence in him.

Sam was a wonderful character, but let us not forget that in the end, he chose not to take the Ring to Mt Doom, he decided instead, to go back and stand guard over a dead body. Had the timing been different, Frodo, Sam and the Ring would have been captured! Whether by fate, or by accident, Sam ended up making the right decision twice.

I also think that Blackboar has a good point, it always seemed odd to me that Sam was so worried about someone defiling Frodo’s body and yet he didn’t make any effort to try and hide it.

[RosieCotton]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
I think the Ring abandoned Sam because it had done much more work corrupting Frodo than him.

I agree. Sam would have a much better chance of destroying the Ring at the Cracks of Doom than Frodo, because Frodo was already partially corrupted by it when Sam left him for dead. If Sam kept the Ring until the Cracks of Doom would he have been able to destroy it? I would say probably yes.

More on topic, I think Sam was very hard on himself. I mean, if he stayed, he and Frodo probably would have been killed by Orcs and the whole quest would have been in vain.

Rosie

[Quercus]

Originally posted by RosieCotton
If Sam kept the Ring until the Cracks of Doom would he have been able to destroy it? I would say probably yes.


I’m not so sure about that. Sam had probably only possessed the Ring for a few hours before he started to have delusions of grandeur. It was his love for Frodo that made him resist the power of the Ring. Would he have had the fortitude to resist it’s temptation if his only goal were to destroy it? I think not.