High Kings of the Noldor [Archive]

Dain

09-18-2002, 07:55 AM

This information was taken from The Encyclopedia of Arda, hope it helps

Dates: Pre-First Age to II 3441
Race: Elves
Division: Noldor

The title of six Elf-lords of the Noldor. They held titular rulership over all the Noldor of Middle-earth, though in practice circumstances prevented the effective use of this power until the time of the Last Alliance. The Sons of FÃƒÂ«anor, in particular, while they acknowledged the Kingship, paid its bearer little heed; they preferred to follow their own policies under the general leadership of Maedhros.

I FinwÃƒÂ« (ruled c.9,000 years before the beginning of the First Age)
The first lord of the Noldor awoke at CuiviÃƒÂ©nen and led his people into the West to dwell in Valinor. He was slain by Morgoth at Formenos, and succeeded by his eldest son.

II FÃƒÂ«anor (ruled briefly during I 1)
He led the host of the Noldor back to Middle-earth1 to avenge his father's death and recover the Silmarils from Morgoth. He was slain in his assault on Angband. After his death, the Kingship by right belonged to his eldest son Maedhros, but he refused it and the succession passed instead to FÃƒÂ«anor's half-brother2.

III Fingolfin (ruled 454 years to I 455)
He dwelt to the northwest of Beleriand with his sons, and ruled the Noldor during the Siege of Angband. When Morgoth broke the leaguer in the Dagor Bragollach, he rode in anger to the gates of Angband and died in single combat with Morgoth. He was succeeded by his eldest son.

IV Fingon (ruled 16 years to I 471)
His short reign was one of endless war with the forces of Morgoth. With Maedhros, he prepared a final assault on Morgoth, the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, which ended in disaster for the Noldor and Fingon's own death. He was succeeded by his brother3.

V Turgon (ruled 39 years to I 510)
Turgon's kingship was titular indeed, for even his own kin did not know the location of his Hidden City of Gondolin. Gondolin's location was discovered by Morgoth through the treachery of Maeglin, and Turgon died in its Fall. After his death, the Kingship passed back to Fingon's line, to his only son.

VI Ereinion Gil-galad (ruled 3,514 years to II 3441)
The last High King, Gil-galad held the Kingship longer than any of his forebears since FinwÃƒÂ«. He formed the Last Alliance with Elendil, and died during the Siege of Barad-dÃƒÂ»r at the end of the Second Age.

Gil-galad was the last High King; after his time the title is never used. In order of succession, the Kingship would presumably have fallen on Turgon's descendants; EÃƒÂ¤rendil (who was in the West and could not exercise it) or his eldest son Elrond (who never made claim to the Kingship).

Notes
1 The succession of FÃƒÂ«anor was not acknowledged by all the Noldor; many took Fingolfin as their lord immediately after the loss of FinwÃƒÂ«. Nonetheless, as natural heir to FinwÃƒÂ« and lord of a part of the Noldor, FÃƒÂ«anor is included in this list.
2 Some few of the Noldor remained in Valinor when FÃƒÂ«anor returned to Middle-earth; they took Fingolfin's brother Finarfin as their King.
3 It is nowhere explained why the succession should have fallen on Turgon at this point, rather than passing directly to Fingon's son Gil-galad.

The Lady of Ithilien

09-18-2002, 08:53 AM

Maybe Elrond didn't claim the kingship, though there were still Noldor in Middle-Earth and he had been Gil-Galad's squire and had been given Gil-Galad's ring of power, because his descent was partly mortal. And Gil-Galad's only other relative, though more distant, Galadriel, was married to a Sindarin Elf.

markedel

09-18-2002, 05:28 PM

And most of all there was simply no nolodorin kingdom left just a mixed remnant in Lindon and Rivendell.

Ã‘Ã³lendil

09-18-2002, 07:09 PM

The Encyclopedia of Arda would seem to be listing Kings, not High-Kings, and I don't like their version of Gil-galad's genealogy (which is what it is of course because they don't have all the sources). The High-Kings were Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and Gil-galad. In other words: RÃ*an's list with Tar-Elenion's correction.

RÃan

09-19-2002, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Technically Finwe was not High King of the Noldor. He was just Noldoran, King of the Noldor.
OK, I agree with that - the "Index of Names" in the Sil just calls him "King of the Noldor in Aman", and I don't see him called High King anywhere in the texts that I have. So far, it looks like no other Tolkien writings call him High King.

After the death of Finwe both Feanor and Fingolfin claimed the Kingship. The dispute was not resolved until after Feanor's death when Fingolfin became the ruler.
Poor Feanor! What a sad end to such a great potential. However, his death certainly resolved the dispute! And Fingolfin is referred to as "High King of the Noldor in Beleriand" in the index, so he's certainly one. Same for Fingon, also referred to as HKotN in the index, and same for Gil-Galad.

Turgon is not referred to as HKotN in the index, yet in the "Of the Fifth Battle" chapter, he is called "King of all the Noldor", so I would probably say that is the same as High King. Any other references around call him High King?

And Feanor - rather unclear, but not referred to as HKotN anywhere, so I think probably not - it was just in dispute, then he died, as Tar-Elenion said.

RÃan

09-19-2002, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by Dain
This information was taken from The Encyclopedia of Arda, hope it helps
Thanks, Dain, for including that. It was a nice summary, and the dates helped - I'm terrible with dates.

However, it looks like they were not familiar with the great "parentage of Gil-Galad" controversy. Note 3 -It is nowhere explained why the succession should have fallen on Turgon at this point, rather than passing directly to Fingon's son Gil-galad.

Michael Martinez has a good discussion on this in the first part of the article here: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/44954 .
It seems Tolkien's final word was what I said in my first post at the bottom, which also explains why the kingship went the way it did and removes the problem in Note 3. This is also mentioned in Unfinished Tales and Morgoth's Ring, if you have those (let me know if you would like chapter #'s to look it up, if you have those books :) )

This whole thread started when I reread the thrilling and tragic account of Fingolfin's fight with Morgoth before the gates of Angband, and Tolkien's beautifully written sentences: "Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep." It just kind of made me wonder which ones were accounted High Kings, and the exact order of the High Kings, etc. Thanks everyone for their help. Any more comments, questions, corrections, etc.? Anyone else especially like those 2 sentences?

Sister Golden Hair

09-19-2002, 01:00 PM

What is the difference between "King of all the Noldor, " and "High King of the Noldor."?

Also, after the Exile, Finarfin was given the kingship in Aman over the Noldor. What do you think happens to that when the others come back from Mandos that would have been kings had they not left Valinor? Does Finarfin remain king over the Noldor in Valinor? Even though Ingwe is King of all Elves.

RÃan

09-19-2002, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What is the difference between "King of all the Noldor, " and "High King of the Noldor."?
I don't know ...... probably no difference! It's just that those two sentences that I quoted earlier about the death of Fingolfin had triggered the thought "now where else had I seen the phrase 'High Kings' mentioned?" (and there's something just more noble-sounding to 'High King' than 'King') and I just decided to try and track the whole 'High King' thing.
Also, after the Exile, Finarfin was given the kingship in Aman over the Noldor. What do you think happens to that when the others come back from Mandos that would have been kings had they not left Valinor? Does Finarfin remain king over the Noldor in Valinor? Even though Ingwe is King of all Elves. I don't know - very interesting thought! Good thing that they all conveniently died ;) (although some met up back in Aman) (Where was that quote - something about Fingolfin walking with his father Finwe?) And I totally forgot about poor Ingwe (missed all the action). But what a cool guy.

Sister Golden Hair

09-19-2002, 02:58 PM

(Where was that quote - something about Fingolfin walking with his father Finwe?) And I totally forgot about poor Ingwe (missed all the action). But what a cool guy.I think you are thinking of Finrod walking with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.

Finrod Felagund

09-20-2002, 01:55 PM

The whole thing about Galadriel has been discussed before.
She probably could have taken the kingship but chose not to. She was Finwe's grandaughter.

RÃan

09-20-2002, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think you are thinking of Finrod walking with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.
whoops! off by one generation and one son :D thanks for the correction.

Sister Golden Hair

09-20-2002, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by RÃ*an
whoops! off by one generation and one son :D thanks for the correction. Sure thing.:)

Curufinwe

09-20-2002, 11:22 PM

Technically speaking wouldn't Finarfin be the "High King" of the Nolder after the passing of his brother Fingolfin?

Sister Golden Hair

09-20-2002, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by Curufinwe
Technically speaking wouldn't Finarfin be the "High King" of the Nolder after the passing of his brother Fingolfin? That would have been the case but for Finarfin not going into exile. Although he started to, he chose to turn back and return to Aman, and there he was given the rule of the remaining Noldor.

Ã‘Ã³lendil

09-21-2002, 03:23 AM

What is the difference between "King of all the Noldor, " and "High King of the Noldor."?

Ideally, the High King holds authority over all other Kings. Say there is at one time four Ã‘oldorin Kings of Beleriand, only one would be High King. Of course, in their situation, mostly each King kept to himself at his own Realm.

There were in all recorded history only ten Ã‘oldorin Kings (those marked with *s were High-kings):
1. FinwÃ«
2. CurufinwÃ« FÃ«anÃ¡ro ("FÃ«anor")
3. *NolofinwÃ« Aracano ("Fingolfin")
4. ArafinwÃ« Ingoldo ("Finarfin")
5. *FindecÃ¡no ("Fingon")
6. NelyafinwÃ« Maitimo Russandol ("Maedhros")
7. FindarÃ¡to Ingoldo ("Finrod")
8. *TurucÃ¡no ("Turgon")
9. Artaher ("Orodreth") and
10. *Rodnor Gil-galad Ereinion

You, SGH, and others here, know that several of these persons were Kings at the same time. Yet only one could ever be High-king.

Finwe was not a High-king. There was no need of a High-king in his time, for he was the only one.

After the death of FinwÃ« Ã‘oldoran ("King of the Ã‘oldor"), the Kingship was in dispute. Following the Rebellion of the Ã‘oldor, there were two Kings among the Exiles: Fingolfin and Feanor. Feanor claimed the Kingship as eldest of the children of Finwe. According to the earlier version that appears in the Silmarillion, Fingolfin accepted this, but many were not willing to follow Feanor anyway. According to the later version, which so far as I know appears only in "The Shibboleth of Feanor", Fingolfin disputed this claim, recalling the judgement of the Valar that he be banished from Tirion and Fingolfin take up rule, because Feanor had drawn sword on his half-brother and caused strife. Feanor pointed out to his half-brother ("with some justice" according to Tolkien) that it was a bit absurd to accept this Valarin judgement, yet defy them completely and march into Exile.

Finarfin also was a King. He returned to Tirion and ruled there, and in one passage in the Silmarillion he is indeed named "king". Finarfin of all the Kings I deem the luckiest and with the fate most kindly. He is at any rate the only one who never died.

After Feanor was slain by Balrogs and the rescue of Maedhros by Fingon, the Kingship passed to Fingolfin, or at any rate, the High Kingship was begun. Fingolfin was King of Hithlum and High King of the Exiled Ã‘oldor, but there were other Kings. Maedhros was King of his own land about the Hill of Himring and I believe by this time Turgon also called himself a King at Vinyamar ("Newhome"), and anyway he would certainly be King in Gondolin, and Finrod became King of Nargothrond. After Fingolfin was crushed by the foot of Morgoth and split in half, the High-kingship passed to his eldest son Fingon, who presided in Hithlum like his father.

Fingon thus theoretically ruled over all the other Ã‘oldor, including his younger brother Turgon of Gondolin, Maedhros of the March of Maedhros, and Finrod of Nargothrond.

After Gothmog cleaved Fingon's head in two with an axe, the Hidden King Turgon was accounted High-king of the Ã‘oldor (as is said by Tuor's foster-father in Unfinished Tales {and of course also in The Silmarillion}). By this time Finrod had been slain by a Werewolf and his steward and nephew Arothir (better known as Orodreth) claimed the Kingship of Nargothrond. So the "under-kings" of Turgon were now Arothir and Maedhros.

Well, our list getting shorter, Arothir decided to be et by Glaurung the Dragon and Turgon reportedly died when his tower fell to the ground in The Fall of Gondolin. That left Maedhros, and he didn't bother to call himself High-king, as he was the only one.

But, of course, young Gil-galad, son of Arothir, escaped the Sack of Nargothrond and met with the other Elves defeated by Morgoth at the Havens by the Sea. Eventually he became King, and he was taken as High-king, rather than Maedhros. Then the Third-Kinslaying happened, and the sailing of EÃ¤rendil to Valinor, and the War of Wrath, and eventually our King Maedhros, bereaved of any people to govern, recovered a Silmaril before casting himself into a fiery chasm of the earth.

That leaves our Gil-galad, the Last High-elven King east of the Sea (who in the Second Age was burned and slain by Sauron on the slopes of Mount Doom).

So of the ten Kings of the Ã‘oldor, only Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and Gil-galad were hailed as High-kings.

Another example of a High-king in Beleriand was your pal, Elu Thingol. He claimed to be High King of Beleriand, even over those Elves and Elven-kings not of the Sindar. Yet Finrod, Thingol's grand-nephew, was the only Ã‘oldorin King who heeded this.

Sister Golden Hair

09-21-2002, 01:42 PM

Another example of a High-king in Beleriand was your pal, Elu Thingol. He claimed to be High King of Beleriand, even over those Elves and Elven-kings not of the Sindar. Yet Finrod, Thingol's grand-nephew, was the only Ã‘oldorin King who heeded this.Nolendil, this makes me want to throw up.:mad:

RÃan

09-21-2002, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think you are thinking of Finrod walking with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.

Now where was that quote about Formenos walking with his second cousin Firimar beneath the trees in Erchamion?

Lefty Scaevola

09-21-2002, 11:00 PM

I believe "High" King was used only in Middle Earth. It was irrelevant in Aman where there was only one king at time. In Beleriand and later Middle Earth, there were multiple kingdoms fuled by Nordorin princes, with them acknowleging the High King as overlord. As for why Earendil and Elrond was bypassed, and the High Kingship ended while Elrond yet survived, the two most likely theories are
1. They did not count distaff (descended through female) heirs,
2. His Atani descent.

Note also that for a space of ten years (Icannot recall if that is years of the sun or valinorian years) when Finwe shared exile with Feanaro in Formenos, NoloFinwe was King of the Noldor in Aman.

One of the intriging questions is Gildor Inglorion's ancestry. Inglorion means scio of Inglor; Inglor being one of the many names for Findarato. He alos says he is of "the Golden House of Finrod. Finrod is said to have had no children in Beleriand, but there is no such exclusionary statment for after Finrod was reincarnated in Aman. Elves were not allowed to go from Aman to Middle earth after "the Change of the World" when numenor was sunk, but there is no hard exclusion between the War of Wrath and then. Was Gildor then a descendant of Finrod and thus a clear claiment to High King of the Noldor (such as was left) in Middle earth?

Sister Golden Hair

09-22-2002, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
I believe "High" King was used only in Middle Earth. It was irrelevant in Aman where there was only one king at time. In Beleriand and later Middle Earth, there were multiple kingdoms fuled by Nordorin princes, with them acknowleging the High King as overlord. As for why Earendil and Elrond was bypassed, and the High Kingship ended while Elrond yet survived, the two most likely theories are
1. They did not count distaff (descended through female) heirs,
2. His Atani descent.

Note also that for a space of ten years (Icannot recall if that is years of the sun or valinorian years) when Finwe shared exile with Feanaro in Formenos, NoloFinwe was King of the Noldor in Aman.

One of the intriging questions is Gildor Inglorion's ancestry. Inglorion means scio of Inglor; Inglor being one of the many names for Findarato. He alos says he is of "the Golden House of Finrod. Finrod is said to have had no children in Beleriand, but there is no such exclusionary statment for after Finrod was reincarnated in Aman. Elves were not allowed to go from Aman to Middle earth after "the Change of the World" when numenor was sunk, but there is no hard exclusion between the War of Wrath and then. Was Gildor then a descendant of Finrod and thus a clear claiment to High King of the Noldor (such as was left) in Middle earth? This is a tough one. Inglor was originally Finrod Felagund. Finrod had no wife or children. However, Finrod after death returns to Valinor and is reunited with Amarie. Gildor Inglorion has that name attached to him (Inglor) and means something like the son of Finrod. Not sure. He would have had to come to Middle-earth sometime in the Second Age, but when he identifies himself to Frodo and company, he says he is an Exile. This is somewhat inconsistant. If this is the case, then he would have had to cross the ice with the rest of the exiles I would think.

RÃan

09-22-2002, 01:32 AM

Yes, Gildor is one of those puzzling loose ends. If only Tolkien lived to be 1000 and had no responsibilities except writing! Can you imagine his to-do list for M.E.? So many details to cross-check and tie in! Another loose end I wish he had time to tidy up is the Galadriel/Celeborn story - there were lots of different versions he had floating around in notes as to ancestry, how they got to M.E., etc.

Artanis

09-22-2002, 03:12 AM

I'm glad he did not live for 1000 years ;) , if Tolkien indeed had settled it all, it wouldn't be anything left for us to discuss, or to ponder on. I rather like the loose ends of some of his writings. Like someone (BoP?) said in another thread, the unfinishedness makes the myths and stories and the world they are emerged from seem more real.
This is a tough one. Inglor was originally Finrod Felagund. Finrod had no wife or children. However, Finrod after death returns to Valinor and is reunited with Amarie. Gildor Inglorion has that name attached to him (Inglor) and means something like the son of Finrod. Not sure. He would have had to come to Middle-earth sometime in the Second Age, but when he identifies himself to Frodo and company, he says he is an Exile. This is somewhat inconsistant. If this is the case, then he would have had to cross the ice with the rest of the exiles I would think. You're right SGH, it is contradictory, and up till now it has totally escaped me. Thank you Lefty S! :) Unfortunately I can't think of any sensible solution to this riddle. If he indeed was a descendant of Finrod, why do you think he didn't claim kingship? Nothing much left to be king of, perhaps, but still.

Lefty Scaevola

09-22-2002, 11:54 AM

One possiblity is a different sense of the word exile. legaly no Nolda except Artanis/Newende/Alatarial/Galadriel was under ban of exile at the time of Gildor's statment, so he could not mean it in that sense, likewise he may not have meant it to mean he had ben one of the Noldor who went into exile at the first age. He may have meant it in the the sense that he was in a self imposed sabbatical or pilgramage away from his home, which would be cosistant with being in a wandering company, rather than a settled home.
The other possibility is, of course, that it is a simple continuity error.

Artanis

09-22-2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
One possiblity is a different sense of the word exile. legaly no Nolda except Artanis/Newende/Alatarial/Galadriel was under ban of exile at the time of Gildor's statment, so he could not mean it in that sense, likewise he may not have meant it to mean he had ben one of the Noldor who went into exile at the first age. He may have meant it in the the sense that he was in a self imposed sabbatical or pilgramage away from his home, which would be cosistant with being in a wandering company, rather than a settled home. Could it be the Valar had sent him and his companions to ME, and that their meeting with Frodo at the crucial moment wasnt such a coincidence as it appeared to be. Just a sudden thought.

Lefty Scaevola

09-22-2002, 12:53 PM

Glorfindal was being rewitten into being one of the "messengers" sent from Aman to contest Sauron's power (the Istari were likewise such messengers). Gildor could likewise have been such, but in that case he likely would have been more active in aiding Frodo.

Aside: I think I still have some distant cousins in Oslo, the Moursund family.

Barrett the Bloodaxe Moursund

Artanis

09-22-2002, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Barrett the Bloodaxe Moursund Bloodaxe? :eek:
There once was a Norwegian king called Bloodaxe (directly translated): Eirik BlodÃ¸ks. He lived from (approx) 895 to 954.
Apart from this, there are at least 13 Moursunds in the Oslo region.

Lefty Scaevola

09-22-2002, 02:26 PM

Alhtough not quite Nodorin royalty, one of my ancestors is semi-legendary. Rochansen Falconer Moursund, supposed to have lived to 120 years old and been mayor of Trondheim for 70 years. Most likely a confounding of two persons, such as a man and his grandson with the same name. This "fact" may be error form 400 years ago, even with written records. This illustrates how legends can be created, In JRRT's Middle Earth, with over 7000 years of history since the return of the Noldor, and much of it not written until Bilbo, but kept in oral tradition, even with some imortal memories, tremendous amounts are lost, and much is altered. This is particularly so when the oral tradition is mostly epics lays and othe poems, which are supposed to be embelished, and are histoires per se.

Aside: Moursund (Maursund, alternative spelling?) means seawall, does it not?

Sister Golden Hair

09-22-2002, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
One possiblity is a different sense of the word exile. legaly no Nolda except Artanis/Newende/Alatarial/Galadriel was under ban of exile at the time of Gildor's statment, so he could not mean it in that sense, likewise he may not have meant it to mean he had ben one of the Noldor who went into exile at the first age. He may have meant it in the the sense that he was in a self imposed sabbatical or pilgramage away from his home, which would be cosistant with being in a wandering company, rather than a settled home.
The other possibility is, of course, that it is a simple continuity error. This thought occured to me. I have noticed that Tolkien uses words like exile in different ways. I would suggest that if when Gildor refers to himself and his company as exiles that if the first letter is capitalized, then he is refering to the Exiles of Aman. If not, then he may be of an exiled clan in Middle-earth. I don't have the text of LotRs to verify my theory.

Artanis

09-22-2002, 03:51 PM

In the book Gildor says "We are Exiles" with a capital e.

Ã‘Ã³lendil

09-22-2002, 04:31 PM

Michael Martinez has a very good theory on Gildor Inglorion: Finrod, after having been returned to life in Aman, wedded AmÃ¡riÃ« of the Vanyar, and Inglor is descended from him in some way (a son or grandson). Inglor journeyed to Middle-earth some time and stayed there, with Exiles of his kindred, and his son was Gildor. Then it would make perfect sense for Gildor to be Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finarfin.

SGH, Gildor never says "I am an exile", he says "We are exiles". Maybe he didn't want to single himself out as the only one who wasn't.

Sister Golden Hair

09-22-2002, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Ã‘Ã³lendil
Michael Martinez has a very good theory on Gildor Inglorion: Finrod, after having been returned to life in Aman, wedded AmÃ¡riÃ« of the Vanyar, and Inglor is descended from him in some way (a son or grandson). Inglor journeyed to Middle-earth some time and stayed there, with Exiles of his kindred, and his son was Gildor. Then it would make perfect sense for Gildor to be Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finarfin.

SGH, Gildor never says "I am an exile", he says "We are exiles". Maybe he didn't want to single himself out as the only one who wasn't. Nolendil, I am not implying that he used the word Exile as an individual reference. He does state that they are Exiles saying "we" that would include him.

Ã‘Ã³lendil

09-22-2002, 05:57 PM

To which I responded: "maybe he didn't want to single himself out".

Maybe Gildor or his father came to Middle-earth in some defiance of the Valar themselves, or even were banished for some reason.

Sister Golden Hair

09-23-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Ã‘Ã³lendil
To which I responded: "maybe he didn't want to single himself out".

Maybe Gildor or his father came to Middle-earth in some defiance of the Valar themselves, or even were banished for some reason. Well maybe, but I don't think Tolkien used the word Exile so loosely. Exiles were a specific group in that story, and I think always refering to the Noldor that left Aman in the First Age.

Dain

09-23-2002, 06:15 PM

Title of the head of the House of Finwe in Middle Earth in his role of overlord of the Noldorin realms. The first overlord might have been Feanor, but his early death prevented him from claiming that authority. Fingolfin was recognised as High King from the First Age 1 until his death in 455, and his son Fingon after him. At Fingons death in 473 the title passed to his brother Turgon of Gondolin, who of course did not exercise any authority outside his Hidden Kingdom. When Turgon died in 511 the Kingship passed to Fingon's son Gil-galad, who remained High King until his death in the Second Age 3441, at which time no heirs of the House of Feanor or Fingolfin remained in Middle Earth.

Sister Golden Hair

09-23-2002, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Dain
Title of the head of the House of Finwe in Middle Earth in his role of overlord of the Noldorin realms. The first overlord might have been Feanor, but his early death prevented him from claiming that authority. Fingolfin was recognised as High King from the First Age 1 until his death in 455, and his son Fingon after him. At Fingons death in 473 the title passed to his brother Turgon of Gondolin, who of course did not exercise any authority outside his Hidden Kingdom. When Turgon died in 511 the Kingship passed to Fingon's son Gil-galad, who remained High King until his death in the Second Age 3441, at which time no heirs of the House of Feanor or Fingolfin remained in Middle Earth. Just a little nitpicking here. Tolkien changed the parentage of Gil-galad from Fingon being his father to Orodreth being his father, and Orodreth was no longer the brother of Galdriel and Finrod, but became the son of Angrod. Pretty confusing huh?

Dain

09-24-2002, 05:33 AM

Sister Golden Hair

Please tell me in which book Tolkien changed the parentage of Gil-galad from Fingon to Oredreth, because all the books i have dont mention this.

Lefty Scaevola

09-24-2002, 09:41 AM

Making him Fingon's son was just error on the part of CT. He was already the son of Oredreth in the drafts of S which CT used, but it was one of those things that silliped by in the confused state of said drafts, and he may have been confused with Finbor, a prospective son of Fingon that JRRT had written and then uncreated. Yhe change in the geneolgy from one draft to another was Oredreth being moved a generation, being change from being Finarfin's son to Angrod's son.

RÃan

09-26-2002, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Dain
Sister Golden Hair - Please tell me in which book Tolkien changed the parentage of Gil-galad from Fingon to Oredreth, because all the books i have dont mention this.

Dain, check out the link I mentioned in one of my posts on the first page - here it is again, for your convenience : http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/44954.

p.s. - I've always loved the sound of Leeds - is it a nice place to live?

Sister Golden Hair

09-26-2002, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Dain
Sister Golden Hair - Please tell me in which book Tolkien changed the parentage of Gil-galad from Fingon to Oredreth, because all the books i have dont mention this. Lefty's post above is correct. It wasn't that Tolkien changed the parentage as much as it was an error on Christopher's part in editing the Silmarillion. He corrects his mistakes in the Histories of Middle-earth series. I believe you can find the info in volumes 11 (War of the Jewels) and 12 (The Peoples of Middle-earth).

Ã‘Ã³lendil

09-26-2002, 07:59 PM

Well maybe, but I don't think Tolkien used the word Exile so loosely. Exiles were a specific group in that story, and I think always refering to the Noldor that left Aman in the First Age.

I don't think so either, but if we must accept that Gildor was of the House of Finarfin (which we must because he was), then we have to reason and even cheat a little. Originnaly Gildor was Felagund's son, as you know, but now we know he couldn't have been Finrod's son, although he could have been descended from him. We have to get around "Exiles".

I have no doubt in my mind that by "Exile" Tolkien meant, when he wrote it, that Gildor was one of those who left Aman in defiance of the Valar before the First Age, or was descended from one and born in Middle-earth. But he can't have meant that anymore, or so I hold, it just doesn't work.

Maybe Gildor was born of Inglor in Aman after the return of Finrod, and was cast out for some mysterious crime, or left when he was told not to, or was paying a debt or something, and so could be called an Exile. Some explanation ought to be devised.

The Lady of Ithilien

09-29-2002, 08:44 PM

Thanks for the reference on the Histories of Middle-Earth series.

Two comments: First, as for Gildor, We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. That sounds to me as though he was among the Noldor who defied the Valar and left Aman. Given the discussion here, though, I'm going to have to think about the meaning of "our kindred." believe "High" King was used only in Middle Earth. It was irrelevant in Aman where there was only one king at time It may or may not be a technical detail, but Ingwe's title in Aman was, as given in The Silmarillion, "High King of all the Elves."

Sister Golden Hair

09-29-2002, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien

Two comments: First, as for Gildor, That sounds to me as though he was among the Noldor who defied the Valar and left Aman. Given the discussion here, though, I'm going to have to think about the meaning of "our kindred."I agree with this, that he was one of the original Exiles of Aman. He states in LotRs that he is of the House of Finrod, meaning Finarfin. That could mean that he was just of that following or served that line. It may or may not be a technical detail, but Ingwe's title in Aman was, as given in The Silmarillion, "High King of all the Elves." True, Ingwe was High King of all the Elves, but it seems that each branch had their own king as well. In Middle-earth, the only ones to use the title "High King" is the Noldor.

Ã‘Ã³lendil

09-30-2002, 12:57 AM

He states in LotRs that he is of the House of Finrod, meaning Finarfin.

Only in the first edition and the numerous editions following which (incorrectly) did not incorporate Tolkien's revision.

For the Second Edition, Tolkien changed Gildor's words to "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finarphin".

olsonm

09-30-2002, 01:31 AM

Well, if he is of the house of Finarfin wouldn't that make it easier to just add him in somewhere? I mean if Orodreth can gain Angrod as a father and Gil-Galad for a son, isn't there room somewhere else in the family to drop in Gildor? At least for the sake of speculation?

Tar-Elenion

09-30-2002, 02:01 AM

There is a problem with Gildor being a descendant of Finarfin. App. A notes that the lineage of the High-elven Kings in Middle-earth was represented only the sons of Earendil and their descendants after the fall of Gil-galad.

olsonm

09-30-2002, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
That could mean that he was just of that following or served that line. I like this interpretation but is it legitimate? :confused:

Sister Golden Hair

09-30-2002, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by olsonm
I like this interpretation but is it legitimate? :confused: Not sure if we'll ever know.:(

Lefty Scaevola

09-30-2002, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Ingwe was High King of all the Elves

I recall the phrase as being "Most High Lord among the Eldar", Eldar in this sense being the Elves of the grat jouney, and not the Avari. My feelling of it is not that he had any overlordship over the other two knidreds, but that he was the most exalted and respected.

The Lady of Ithilien

09-30-2002, 08:42 PM

I'll have to look back in The Silmarillion and check out the references given here, but FWIW my impression now is that Ingwe was High King of all the Elves because of his physical closeness to and love of the Valar. If so, I wonder has it ever been brought up anywhere that perhaps the Noldor set up a High King in Middle-Earth as part of their defiance of the Valar: "over there is Ingwe (one of the Sons of Feanor would probably at this point call him a 'vassal of the Valar' :) ) but we're doing just fine here with our own High King, so there. Nya-nya-ny-nya-nya"

Oh, it's been a long Monday. :D

Lefty Scaevola

10-01-2002, 08:46 AM

The heirship rules of the Noldorin roylaty are nowhere expressed, but the descent (with Gil-Galad being Oredreth's Son) Fingolfin to Fingon to Turgon to Gil-Galad, and then not to Elrond is consistant with with a rule of male descent only. Galadriel and Celebrindal excluded for being female, Earendil and Elrond for being descended only through Celebrindal.
If Gildor is descended from Finrod (in Aman) but through female descent only, this would explain his lack of claim to the Noldorin Kingship in ME.
Another possiblity, consistant with Gildor being a EXILE, and with Finrod having no children in ME, is that his family connection is not blood descent. Perhaps he was orphaned and Finrod made him his foster son. This might have made him one of the family "Inglorion of the House of Finarfin" but not given him any claim to the Kingship.

RÃan

10-01-2002, 06:43 PM

Good points, Lady of I and Lefty.

The Lady of Ithilien

10-02-2002, 09:30 PM

Oh, mine was a little off the wall -- it had been a long day :) They probably loved Ingwe, and that wouldn't change, as the Vanyar hadn't interacted with the rebelling Noldor at all, had they? If they were to be bitter at any Elf in Aman, it would have been Finarfin, had they known he had been made king of the remaining Noldor there. But they didn't know that.

The question was raised earlier, who would be king as the various High Kings among the Exiles came out of Mandos' halls.

Likely Finarfin would remain king, even when the exiles returned, as he had repented.

But who would have been let out? Wasn't that part of the punishment?

Feanor I would count as a king, even if not technically on the list, because of Fingolfin's words to him in Valmar, and also because of the power of his works (namely, in creating the Silmarils) and his power of leadership, but after his death he was locked in until the end.

There is Finrod walking with his father over there afterwards, but he was a special case, being the first Elf (I think, certainly the first Noldo) to meet Men, and having given his life in Middle-Earth to save Beren.

What were the rules of leaving Mandos' halls if you were an Exile?

olsonm

10-02-2002, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
There is Finrod walking with his father over there afterwards, but he was a special case, being the first Elf (I think, certainly the first Noldo) to meet Men, and having given his life in Middle-Earth to save Beren.

What were the rules of leaving Mandos' halls if you were an Exile? It's also possible that Finrod didn't come out until after the Ban had been lifted.

Ã‘Ã³lendil

10-03-2002, 12:15 AM

Ahh, Tar-Elenion has struck right at the heart.

There is a problem with Gildor being a descendant of Finarfin. App. A notes that the lineage of the High-elven Kings in Middle-earth was represented only the sons of Earendil and their descendants after the fall of Gil-galad.

I think, then, that we ought to take a suggestion from SGH. Gildor lived in the home of Finarphin, or was of his following, or something similar to that. Hmm.

I wonder, ... perhaps he was related by marriage ... Angrod (son of Finarphin) married an obscure Ã‘oldorin woman by the name of EldalÃ³tÃ« (or in Sindarin Edhellos). Perhaps EldalÃ³te had a close relative named Ilauro, or something that might be rendered into "Inglor" in the tongue of Beleriand.

the real findorfin

10-18-2002, 05:54 PM

where does this different genealogy of Gil-Galad come from?

It really isn't as good and doesn't make sense.

If when Finrod died, why did Orodreth (arothir) take the throne, when Aegnor and Angrod were around. (where they dead yet)

It doesn't fit in with much of the Sil. (yes I know its different) but I just don't like it.

Sister Golden Hair

10-18-2002, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by the real findorfin
where does this different genealogy of Gil-Galad come from?

It really isn't as good and doesn't make sense.

If when Finrod died, why did Orodreth (arothir) take the throne, when Aegnor and Angrod were around. (where they dead yet)

It doesn't fit in with much of the Sil. (yes I know its different) but I just don't like it. Nomatter if Orodreth was Finrod's brother, or nephew, he would still have been the heir to Finrod's throne. Finrod's brothers died before he did.

Lefty Scaevola

10-18-2002, 09:09 PM

Angrod and Aegenor both were Killed in The battle of the Sudden Flame. Firod was killed some years later during Beren's quest. Since neither Celebrindal nor Galadriel got a throne (Even in Lorien she did not get the tile of queen) it seems that females were usually excluded from the throne.

the real findorfin

10-19-2002, 04:33 AM

Thanks Guys!

I really wish I had the Home series, gotta get it soon.

Yeh, Orodreth's claim makes sense now. It is the general theory that Gil-Galad escaped the ruin of NArgothornd and fled to the Havens?

Similar to Elwing fleeing Menegroth.

Lefty Scaevola

10-19-2002, 11:48 AM

He was sent there by his father some years before the fall of nargothrond. It may have been for safety, but that would have been a goof, since the havens fell before Nargothrond. Likely there was a educational reason, Oredreth may have sent him to Aqquire shipbuilding technology. Gil-Galad was half Sindar, so perhaps he was also some sort of junior ambassador.

Maedhros

10-22-2002, 01:01 AM

Coming to the subject of the thread, I have to agree with Tar-Elenion.
FÃ«anor was not the High King of the Noldor, he claimed the Kingship and did Fingolfin, after his death the matter was settled by Maedhros who waived his right to the kingship not the kingship itself to Fingolfin.
Also in the Shibboleth of FÃ«anor, it states that Fingolfin claimed the Kingship after the death of FinwÃ«.

Lefty Scaevola

01-11-2006, 10:59 PM

I have another theory on Gildor. During the War of the Great Jewels there were likely young Noldor orphaned, and some such orphans may have become wards of the Kings, raised in their households, even as we have seen other examples of this, like Turin being a fosterson to Thingol. Perhaps Gildor was an original exile or child therof, a younster, orpahned by war or other casualty (like crossing the Helecarxe) and was made a fosterling by Finrod. He would not be a heir to the throne, but would perhaps call himself of Finrods house.

Cerebus

02-20-2006, 12:49 PM

Sister Golden Hair

02-20-2006, 01:03 PM

Where does Maglor get lost in all of this though? If I remember correctly, after the War of Wrath he's just wondering around the coasts of ME and we never hear from him again. Since I haven't read the HOME series I don't know of any further explanation. But, technically wouldn't he have some sort of claim to the High Kingship?I don't believe so. After Finwe's death, Feanor claimed kingship over the Noldor, but after his death, Meadhros passed the kingship over to the second house of Finwe, which was Fingolfin. So the High Kingship in Beleriand consisted of: Fingolfin, Fingon, and Turgon. When this house was killed off and there were no longer any heirs, it would pass to the third house of Finwe. Finarfin of course did not come to Beleriand in the Exile. Finarfin's sons had all died before Turgon, so at that point, the heir to the throne would be Gil-galad who was last High King.

CrazySquirrel

02-20-2006, 01:18 PM

Where does Maglor get lost in all of this though? If I remember correctly, after the War of Wrath he's just wondering around the coasts of ME and we never hear from him again. Since I haven't read the HOME series I don't know of any further explanation. But, technically wouldn't he have some sort of claim to the High Kingship?
Hi, Cerebus,
Welcome to the Moot! :) :)

Right, as far as I know, Maglor is still somewhere around. I don't remember anything from HOME about his fate (though I haven't read all the 12 volumes).

His claim would have been very strong, had his older brother not abdicated for all their house... I don't think there is a way back on it.

Lady Marion Magdalena

02-20-2006, 02:34 PM

Unless the heir from one of the other houses formally abdicated and handed authority back to the house of Feanor.

Cerebus

02-20-2006, 02:42 PM

Hi, Cerebus,
Welcome to the Moot! :) :)

Right, as far as I know, Maglor is still somewhere around. I don't remember anything from HOME about his fate (though I haven't read all the 12 volumes).

His claim would have been very strong, had his older brother not abdicated for all their house... I don't think there is a way back on it.

I didn't realize that Maedhros abdicated for their entire house. However, if he did, I thought that since he died his relinquishing of the high kingship could possibly be null and void, leaving Maglor to contest it if he so wished. I don't have the texts in front of me right now though, so I might not be recalling some specific phrasing which would negate what I am saying.

Sister Golden Hair

02-20-2006, 02:53 PM

I didn't realize that Maedhros abdicated for their entire house. However, if he did, I thought that since he died his relinquishing of the high kingship could possibly be null and void, leaving Maglor to contest it if he so wished. I don't have the texts in front of me right now though, so I might not be recalling some specific phrasing which would negate what I am saying.After Feanor's death, Meadhros was the eldest of the line of the first house. I would think that that in itself would not undo his decision to turn the kingship over to the line of Fingolfin. Once Fingolfin was king, the kingship would have passed down to his sons and then to theirs had they had any. Since Fingon had no children and Turgon had no sons, the kingship would move to the third house, being Finarfin's children.

CrazySquirrel

02-20-2006, 03:09 PM

Here is the quote you sought:

By this deed [saving Maerhros] Fingon won great renown, and all the Noldor praised him; and the hatred between the houses of Fingolfin and FÃ«anor was assuaged. For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of FinwÃ«, and not the least wise.' But to this his brothers did not all in their hearts agree. Therefore even as Mandos foretold the House of FÃ«anor were called the Dispossessed, because the over-lordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in ElendÃ« and in Beleriand, and because also of the loss of the Silmarils.
So Maedhros waived HIS claim only and some of his brothers disagreed. I believe Maglor was not one of them, more likely it were the baddies: Celegorm and Curufin.
Anyway, Maglor was the only one to outlive Maedhros.

Cerebus

02-20-2006, 03:12 PM

I understand why the kingship went to the house of Finarfin, however what I'm saying is that after Maedhros' death Maglor could have contested Gil-Galad's claim to the high kingship because he was now the only surviving heir to the house of Feanor and therefore could rescind Maedhros' decision as the head of that house.

Edit: Granted, I'm not saying that Maglor would have wanted to contest Gil-Galad's claim, but that the possibility existed for him to do so. So really, this is all just semantics because Maglor was so guilt stricken that he couldn't even associate with other elves anyway, let alone try to lead the Noldorin remnant.

CrazySquirrel

02-20-2006, 03:27 PM

Wow, how could I forget?

It DID happen, as far as I remember, but not with Maglor!
It happened in Hollin, in the Second Age. Gil-Galad was the High King, but Celebrimbor, lord of Eregion, was Curufin's son, of the house of Feanor. I don't remember if he actually contested Gil-Galad's High kinship, but sure he didn't hearken to his advice (re:Annatar) and was very independant.
The Mirdain asked Galadriel and Celeborn who tried to lord it over them, to go pack.

Cerebus

02-20-2006, 03:34 PM

CrazySquirrel

02-20-2006, 04:17 PM

Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. So great became his hold on the MÃ*rdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dÃ»m to LÃ³rinand, taking with her Amroth and CelebrÃ*an; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In LÃ³rinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron. - UT
It is not said that Celebrimbor challenged Gil-Galad specifically. But he revolted against his own Lord and Lady, so it must be regarded as a revolt against the High King as well.

Also Celegorm and Curufin revolted against Orodreth in Nargothrond...