Orome

[double helix]

Do you think that since Aule aniur of smith

work who created the Dwarves with out permision of Illuvatar

whould have made the dwarves look like something other than

what they are short in size and temper and thick in wieght and

headed or did aule do it impromptu like a spur of the moment

thing because he didn't want the other aniur to figure out. I

believe he could of made them alot more beautiful.

And on a side note did melkor corupt the elves which made them
orcs :confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

What's with the big bold print?

Orome did not create the Dwarves, Aule did.

Originally Tolkien had said that Orcs came from corrupted Elves that had been taken captive I believe. He later changed this and Orcs were now derived from the race of Men. Something like that.

[Jador]

AULE DID TRY TO HIDE HIS CREATION FROM THE OTHER MIAR BECAUSE HE WAS IMPATIENT>

SGH Isnt the first time that men are mentioned to do with orcses,when Saruman is involved?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Jador
AULE DID TRY TO HIDE HIS CREATION FROM THE OTHER MIAR BECAUSE HE WAS IMPATIENT>

SGH Isnt the first time that men are mentioned to do with orcses,when Saruman is involved? I think Nolendil would be a more reliable source here, but I believe it is stated either in one of Tolkien's letters or the HoMe series that the idea of Orcs coming from Elves no longer was the case and it was Men always that they were derived from. Sorry I can't give you exact references, but I am sure MM, or Nolendil can.

[Beruthiel]

Pardon me for jumping in, but I have participated in other chats about this, and I think I can help.

Aule created the dwarves to be strong and be able to face the world as it was - the one where Melkor was knocking down mountains and creating earthquakes. He had only seen the Children of Illuvitar briefly, so he made them as best he could recall. He wasn't really all that concerned about looks. He wanted something that would survive, and create works of metal and halls of stone, as Aule delighted in.

The orcs are a different story. There are conflicting reports. Tolkien said in the Sil that The Wise believed them to be corrupted Elves. Later, he said they were fell spirits that had been mingled with Elves. Then it's said that they were fell spirits mingled with men! Oh, the puzzlement!

Add to the mix that there are three different types of Orcs. The originals, the gobling-orcs, and the Uruk-Hai. Oh....I think you should check MM's writings on this topic. He's got more pf a handle on it than I do. Frankly I like to think it's what was described in the Sil, and leave it at that.

[Ñólendil]

In Of Aulë and Yavanna it states that the Dwarves look as they are because the vision of the Children of Ilúvatar that were to come were yet unclear in his mind. He was thus trying to make the Dwarrows look as much like Elves and Men as he could, but he wasn't sure exactly what they looked like.

The idea that Orcs came from Elves is so wide-spread that it's almost pointless (tedious? laborous?) to keep telling people that's not the way it is. And the movie doesn't help. In the old texts, naturally before The Silmarillion was put together as it was put together after J. R. R.'s deaths, Orcs came from Elves. There's no arguing that. But Tolkien replaced this idea with the one SGH mentioned: Orcs came from Men. You can read all about it in Morgoth's Ring, which is Volume X in ths History of Middle-earth series and Part 2 of The History of the Silmarillion. It's in a section called Myths Transformed.

The idea is that Melkor had the idea to corrupt the first Men into his own Race, and that Sauron knew of his plans. So when Melkor was taken by the Valar to Valinor for his three-Age imprisonment, Sauron implemented the grand plans and started corrupting a bunch of Men, spiritually and corporeally, so that there were vast armies of them waiting for Melkor upon his return. Sauron also cross-breeded the Orcs with Men and made the first Half-orcs. Saruman "discovered" (in the same sense that Columbus "discovered" the Americas) how to do this in the Third Age and was thus mimicking Sauron.

Beruthiel, there were many different kinds of breeds and tribes, not only three. What do you mean by "the original kinds"?

[Bertuthiel]

Weeeeelllll....I meant there were the originals, the ones spoken about in the Sil. The others? I have no idea how many there were. Perhaps you can help by listing them. I'd be interested to see just how may there were. I'd thought that there were only a few, the ones mixed, Elf and Fell spirits, Man, Elf and Fell spriits, The Uruks and weird (possibly just differently worded) goblin-orcs.

[Ñólendil]

Oh I see. I thought you were talking about the different kinds of Orks in a single legendarium, as seen in the Lord of the Rings. You mean different versions. That's different. I don't know how many different versions there were. I always seek the final answer, which is often but not always the authoritive one, the one that best belongs in the beloved legends of The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings.

I just meant that the Lord of the Rings shows clearly that were many different kinds of Orks.

"Goblin" is indeed another word for "Ork", though some stubbornly deny it. There are many proofs, but it is put quite clearly by Tolkien in the Foreword (or whatever it was) to the second edition of The Hobbit. "Ork" (or "Orc" as it appears in The Lord of the Rings) is a genuine Common Speech word, and "Goblin" is of course English.

Because I enjoy myself too much and with the excuse of you perhaps needing a bit of help (I don't know if you do), I'll try to give you a better idea of Orks, as I believe they are, based on my crack-head-four-in-the-morning studies. [/longsentence]

Ork-like creatures were first seen by the Elves of Cuiviénen, the Water of Awakening, as horrible shapes in the darkness. In Primitive Quendian such a shape was called "uruk", "urkô", "urku" and "uruku", related to the adjective of "urkâ"="horrible". These were Fallen Maiar in the service of Melkor. As I have said, although Orks as an idea is derived from Melkor, it was Sauron who achieved it, while Melkor was in captivity. Later, in the Wars of Beleriand, some of these demonic Orks would emerge from the gates of Hell, leading armies, and they were the most feared of Morgoth's minions, "only less formidable than the Balrogs".

He achieved it (the making of true Orks) when Men came around, which was much sooner after the Elves that in the version that appears in The Silmarillion as published. He took Men and ruined them, and true Orks could be seen in a few generations. After he had a fair supply he began to interbreed the true Orks with true Men, producing a Race of Half-orks (of which nothing is otherwise said, as far as I know). The Orks you see in The Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings are of this kind (ruined Men).

In the Third Age Sauron first devised the Uruk-hai, a breed of soldier-Orks far superior to the earlier kinds, which they referred to as "slaves". The Uruk-hai were taller, almost man-high, broad, swart, slant-eyed, red-tongued, hairy, stout and strong. They were hardier than their lesser kindred and were trained to endure the light of the Sun. Wherever they dwelt, in the Black Land of Mordor, in the Mountains (Angmar, the Grey, the Misty, the White), in the ring of Isengard, in the wide uncharted lands of the East and South, they were a menace and a threat to their neighbors, eachother and to the lesser kinds.

Thousands of years later Curumo, known to the Men of the North as Saruman, uncovered the ancient evil arts known to the Sauron of old, and he began breeding his Orks with Men (probably Dunlendings), producing a new Race of Half-orks to trouble the world.

This version, the version I follow, is not wholly seen in or in accordance with the published Silmarillion, and it certainly is in strong disagreement with the unfortunate words of Saruman in the movie, but I do not think that matters. Naturally I think I'm right and I'm fully prepared to argue my case, but many do not believe all this to be true at all. Trust who you wish, if you will, or gather the books around you and decide for yourself.

[Bertuthiel]

Mmmmm. Blech, I won't debate you. I find Orcs disgusting in any form. in fact, your info seems good, and I'll take that for canon for LOTR. The Sil? oye, I'm learning that it's very unstable. From now on it seems that I will have to consult several books before coming to a conclusion, based wholly on my own beliefs! Arrgg.....

[Agburanar]

There are many, many different orcs. They could be created from all sorts of different combinations. There are the Goblin-Orcs of the Misty mountains, The 'Black Uruks of Mordor' are mentioned amongst the ranks of orcs in Moria, there are the Sniffler and Tracker orcs evolved with incredible senses of smell, the Uruk-Hai, The weedier Snaga....

In short I believe each type of orc could have been created differently to serve a definite purpose amongst Morgoth's (and later Sauron's) ranks.

[Rhûnboy]

I'm putting forth this speculation as an idea, based on my own observations, as well as those made in this thread, particularly Ñólendil.

It seems from the discussion that the original orcs were derived from runined men.

However, given the variety of orcs described in "canon," as well as the fierce and bitter divisions between what are essentially members of the same armies, and servants of the masters, plus the immence history (8,000+ years) behind the development of orcs, I would speculate there's all sorts of things floating around there: men, elves, dwarves, ents... given that obiquitous warped desire to "create" among Dark Lords, I'd expect them to try to make and orc out of anything. Then you have room for all sorts of physical and temperamental differences, and rivalries between various tribes of orcs could parallel those between the Free People of Middle-Earth.

Like I said, this is speculative; I haven't found any positive evidence of this. However, I haven't found anything to contradict this view, and I think it is fitting given both the descriptions of orcs and their masters.

I should add, however, that I've had only a little experience with the HoME. I've read and reread the three main books, however.
:)

~ Connor (Rhûnboy)

[Ñólendil]

But do you really think some Orks could have been made from Ents?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Orcs lived with the immortality of the Quendi, and thus are overwhelming likey to be derived of elvish stock. I do not believe even Melkor would have the power to change that fundamental part of the nature of one the races of the children of Iluvatar.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Orcs lived with the immortality of the Quendi, and thus are overwhelming likey to be derived of elvish stock. I do not believe even Melkor would have the power to change that fundamental part of the nature of one the races of the children of Iluvatar. Problem is that Tolkien changed his mind about this later down the road. Orcs ended up being from Men and not from Elves at all.

[Artanis]

It takes more than a (Man's) lifetime to create a world. Especially if he changes his mind on fundamental matters along the way, like Tolkien did, ending up confusing us all. :p Sometimes I think it would take more than a lifetime to understand his work. :rolleyes: :)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Problem is that Tolkien changed his mind about this later down the road. Orcs ended up being from Men and not from Elves at all.

Not alll his susequent note represnt a change of mind. As often as not they were experimental musings that were themselves abandoned.

[Ñólendil]

But that is not the case with the Orks.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Atani first awoke with the rising of the sun, after the revolt of the Noldor, yet the orcs were already hiding in Angband and elswhere from being bred by Melkor centuries before that. I presume your are relying of some text in the later volumes of the History of Middle Earth (I am only finished through volume V), how is this time discrepency dealt with there?

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
But do you really think some Orks could have been made from Ents? I remember hearing somewhere that Trolls came from Ents, but I have no idea where I heard that! Any confirmations of or indignant denials?

[Agburanar]

Sounds quite likely to me. But I have no proof. Trolls were made out of rock though weren't they? That's why they turned back to stone at dawn...

(Happy Birthday to meeeeee- drunken hobbit fishing for congratulations!!!)

[Ñólendil]

The Atani first awoke with the rising of the sun, after the revolt of the Noldor, yet the orcs were already hiding in Angband and elswhere from being bred by Melkor centuries before that. I presume your are relying of some text in the later volumes of the History of Middle Earth (I am only finished through volume V), how is this time discrepency dealt with there?

That's right. The version that appears in the Silmarillion was replaced by the one I have read, which is in Morgoth's Ring, Vol X of the HoMe and Part 1 of The History of the Silmarillion. I imagine it wasn't used because it was a part of a drastic revision of the entire mythology that also was not used (J. R. R. came up with an idea whereby his legends would be more believable to the modern scientifically-minded person). Orks were bred from Men, and the "Orks" seen by the Elves before their coming were actually Maian servants of Morgoth who had taken on shapes of horror. The Sun was created before the Earth was, just as in our Real astronomy and neither the Elves nor the Men awoke at the first Dawn. The Elves were called "the People of the Stars" because they awoke on a clear night and stars were the first thing that they saw, and were revered above any other figures of the Heavens. I beileve before Men awoke the skies were clouded in an evil blackness made by Melkor, and they awoke just as the winds of Manwe were blowing them away, revealing the dawn. Something like that.

I remember hearing somewhere that Trolls came from Ents, but I have no idea where I heard that! Any confirmations of or indignant denials?

Treebeard says in Fangorn (both the chapter and the forest) that Trolls were made in mockery of Ents. It's a possibility, but Tolkien never reached a concrete decision about the origin of Trolls. There's talk from him about their being Orkish spirits that were put in stone, talk of them being corrupted Ents, and also (especially the Olog-hai) being corruptions of a primitive form of Man.

[Millane]

back to the thread question ummm Aule made the dwarves the way they were because they were coming into a dark world with Morgoth and they had to be strong and tought and i guess there stature was summit to do with that

[the real findorfin]

As Lefty said, how does the new theory of men-orcs fit. When the Noldor host enters Beleriand they fight and rout a compnay of orcs. What are these then.

[Ñólendil]

I now deeply regret ever mentioning the Men-from-Orks idea on any topic. Disregard it.

[Lefty Scaevola]

"I now deeply regret ever mentioning..."
I am glad of it being posted. The revision would have made much better reading. For All such incosistancies and and overweirdness (Like the Flat earth created before the sun and Moon) I just keep in mind that even within it's millieu, the Silmarrilion is not history as we understand it, but is a compilation, 7000 years, after the fact of mostly Oral traditions, which grew in the telling, and Ideed were written by a primative people, with limited understading of their world.

[Bard]

) My view on the issue:
The first Orks came into being because Melkor created them himself out of stone or clay or something, like Aule did with the Dwarves. Yet these Orks didn`t had there own thoughts and would only move when there master (Melkor or Sauron) would order them to by fixing there mind on them. Then the Elves came and Melkor took some and used them for interbreeding with his Orks (bit jusy story;) ). Thereout came a new sort of Ork, one that had it`s own thoughts and could correspond to that. Although they were still in some wais bounded by the will of there masters, wherefor they hated them (as said in lotr). It were these Orks that fought the first battles of Beleriand wherein Feanor died. Next there came man, the sort of being wich are mostly alike the Orks. I suppose Melkor took another bunch of them and with them he made different kinds of Orks. Those descended from the Elf-Orks and men and those that were mixed up with the orriginal stone-Orks whereof the Goblins could have make there offspring. Later Saruman made a last Orksort, the Uruk-hai, yet these kinds of Orks had already walked upon Middle-Earth in the first and possibly second age but did either dimminish or shrink or died out during the long ages followed after Sauron`s disapperance.

[Ñólendil]

An interesting and valid theory, for the most part. I don't agree with it, but there's nothing wrong with it and it is moreover an attractive idea, until you get to Goblins and Uruks. Goblins and Orks are the same thing, and Uruks were made by Sauron thousands of years before Saruman became corrupt. They are pure-Orks, just a superior soldier-breed. This is a fact and you can read all about it in The Lord of the Rings (make sure you check the Appendices). The movie has really confused people.

I just keep in mind that even within it's millieu, the Silmarrilion is not history as we understand it, but is a compilation, 7000 years, after the fact of mostly Oral traditions, which grew in the telling, and Ideed were written by a primative people, with limited understading of their world.

As I understand things the real Quenta Silmarillion is supposed to have put together on Andor before the Shadow fell upon it, but the longer tales the Númenoreans use to make the Quenta were First Age writings, or earlier. The Narn-I-Chîn Húrin, for example, was written by a young man of the House of Húrin in the First Age after the Fall of Gondolin. His name was DÃ*rhavel, I believe, he lived by the Sea with all the other Free peoples that got their dérriers handed to them by Morgoth. He gathered his information from refuges of Hithlum, Gondolin, Brethil, Doriath and the Falas.

Or to go further back, "Of the Darkening of Valinor" owes much to Aldudénië, a story written by the Vanya ElemmÃ*rë, that was evidently passed on with the Ñoldor to Middle-earth. The Vanyar like all the Light Elves lived with the Holy Ones, and must have, so said Tolkien, accurate knowledge where astronomy is concerned. Especially the Vanyar, I would say, as many of them lived on the feet of Taniquetil, and they were beloved of Varda the Sublime, Varda the bearer of the hidden Light, Varda the Kindler.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Recall that writing was invented by the Elves, seperately in Aman and in Beleriand after the great journey, The elves that made the journey and a generation or so after them, which would emcommpass much of the leadership and the great of the eldar into the first age, thus learned literacy as an adult education. thier first written modes of expression would have recording oral songs, with all that form's tradtions, among which literal unebellished history was not likely one. What they wrote would likely have much more in common with Homer's work, than with Shakespear's or Gibbon's.

[Ñólendil]

What are you getting at, Lefty?

[Lefty Scaevola]

That we should veiw the Silmarillion as heroic poetry rather than a history of the First Age, somewhat more "real" (in its world) than The Illiad is in ours, but less less real than LoTR in its world or a history treatise in ours. Anything too fanciful or left filed in it can be consider poetic license, and not everything therin has to make sense in the 'real' Middle Earth.

[Ñólendil]

In what way is The Silmarillion poetry?

I disagree with you. I think The Silmarillion -- the ideal Silmarillion --- should be regarded in the same respects as The Lord of the Rings. The published Silmarillion does not hold nearly as much weight to me. The Silmarillion was supposed to be as real to it's own world as The Lord of the Rings. It didn't turn out that way, but never got The Silmarillion as it was meant to be.

[Lefty Scaevola]

IIRC, JRRT in his 1951 letter to the Mr Walden, cited in the preface to the sencond edition, states that the SIL was significantly mythological, more so in its earlier parts, and less so in its later parts, particularly after men entered the story.