Celeborn; Sindar or Teleri of Aman?

[Willow Oran]

I searched for a thread discussing this and I couldn't find any so here it goes.

In the Unfinished Tales we are presented with two versions explaining Celeborn's orgins. One of these versions is in agreement with the other books and says that he is an elf of Doriath of a kinsman of Thingol. The other says that he is the grandson of Olwe and that he and Galadriel met in Alqualonde and sailed to middle earth seperately from te rest of the noldor.

Which version do people here think that Tolkien meant as the final one, and which do you like better?

While the first version is the more developed and widely accepted one; I like the second version better in literary terms. It's more interesting to me. Bt I'm curious to know all of your opinions on this. So... Discuss!

[Beruthiel]

I just read that in the Unfinished Tales.

I like that he was kinsman of Thingol, just because it seemed nice that Galadriel should meet him in Doriath. (And it was the first explanation I read, so I tend to stick to what I'm more used to.)
But darn, it's interesting to read, ain't it?
:D

[ArwenEvenstar]

i read unfinished tales around christmas so i don't remember very well, but I like that they met in Doriath.

[Ñólendil]

That Celeborn was a Sinda of Doriath is said in both the Lord of the Rings and The Road Goes Ever On, so I think we should accept this version. Moreover the version in which Celeborn is Teleporno the Teler makes him out to be Galadriel's first-cousin, which Tolkien must not have realized.

[Willow Oran]

I think tolkien probably did realize that it made them first cousins instead of second cousins. It doesn't seem like he would overlook something as glaringly obvious as that. I wish Tolkien had got around to writing more about this subject.

[BeardofPants]

I guess Tolkien felt he'd already explored the kinship taboo, and didn't need another example. *shrug*

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think this was probably an oversight by Tolkien because it states in "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" that the Eldar did not approve of these kinds of relationships with such close kindred, nor did any desire this. IIRC, Tolkien was refering to Meaglin's feelings for Idril in this instance.

[Willow Oran]

In that case it's possible that it wasn't an oversight and that it's the reason he published the version where they're second cousins.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Willow Oran
In that case it's possible that it wasn't an oversight and that it's the reason he published the version where they're second cousins. Yes, you may have something there.

[Ñólendil]

I'm sure it was purely an oversight, as the Teleporno version is the latest Celeborn idea.

[Radagast The Brown]

I like to think that Celeborn is from the sindar, but I guess he was from the elves from Aman... I really don't know. (actually, I read UT a month ago too) :eek:

[galadriel]

Yup, I guess the whole Celeborn of Aman thing is impossible based on kinship.

Besides, that would mean his real name *is* Teleporno, and I would be compelled to explode with laughter every time I even began to contemplate him.... :D

[Willow Oran]

Based on all these opinions and bits of information I think we can safely conclude that the most probable version is the first one. :)

[Galin]

I'm firmly in the camp of Celeborn the Sinda, as was published by Tolkien himself. That said, with respect to first cousins marrying in general, Tolkien seems to say it was possible in Laws And Customs (manuscript A) in Morgoth's Ring:

'The Reborn that were unwedded always return to their own kin. For the marriages of the Eldar do not take place between 'close kin'. This again is a matter in which they needed no law or instruction, but acted by nature, though they gave reasons for it later, declaring that it was due to the nature of bodies and the processes of generation; but also to the nature of fear. 'For', they said, 'fear are also akin, and the motions of love between them, as say between a brother and sister, are not of the same kind as those that make the beginning of marriage.' By 'close kin' for this purpose was meant members of one 'house', especially sisters and brothers. None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers'. Since as has been shown only in the rarest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used these terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one house married a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred. Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.'

This is imbedded within text that contains the reincarnation of Elves being achieved by rebirth as Elf-children (this form of reincarnation was later abandoned, but not Elvish reincarnation in general of course).

The above description was written later than Of Meglin (1951). Tolkien had a typescript made of this 1951 text however, and Christopher Tolkien notes: '... it seems very probable that my father had it typed in order to provide a copy on which substantial further change and annotation could be carried out c. 1970.' And based on the comparison made to the published Silmarillion given in The War of the Jewels, it appears Tolkien made no revision to the relevant part regarding the close kin of Maeglin and Idril.

So (if I've got this straight anyway) while this section of Laws And Customs was written later than Of Meglin, even later revisions to Of Meglin include no alteration to the comments on close kin and marriage -- which again, can be found in the published Silmarillion.

[Findegil]

It is true that Maeglins love for Idril was condemed. But that could be in the line of "Laws and Costums" if (as would be possible) Eol had some blood of the second Elf-Clan and by that the not directly related parents of Maeglin and Idril (Eol and Elenwe) were related in any way.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Alcuin]

Tolkien was concerned in his last years with clearing Galadriel of all guilt in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë. Christopher Tolkien says, if I remember correctly, that his father’s recollections were not as clear in the last year or two of his life; and Tolkien himself, I think, complained about concentrating.

For more than two decades, Tolkien seems to have worked from the assumption that Celeborn was a Sinda. Only in the last year or two of his life did he deviate from this. (In one draft or another, Celeborn was the grandson of a third brother (of Elwë/Elu Thingol and Olwë of Alqualondë), “tickle-me” Elmo; Celeborn’s father was Galadhon son of Elmo. That would make Celeborn and Galadriel not first cousins but second cousins; and such marriages, although quite close, are not traditionally forbidden.)

My bet is that, for most of his life, Tolkien intended for Celeborn to be one of the Sindar of Beleriand; only at the end did he deviate from this; and my strong preference, for what it matters, is that Celeborn was Celeborn of Menegroth, not Teleporno of Alqualondë.

[Galin]

The Telerin idea (so far) can be dated possibly as 'early' as 1968 I think, though it might be interesting to note too that in early draft writing for The Lord of the Rings, Celeborn might have been a Noldo (in the Lórien chapters in the history of The Lord of the Rings, note 12 to 'Galadriel' has Christopher Tolkien suggesting an early conception of Celeborn the Noldo).

Shibboleth of Feanor (1968*): '... Teleporno of the Teleri, whom she wedded later in Beleriand' (this is referred to in Unfinished Tales, and I count it as really one instance from JRRT).

Perhaps another reference comes from late writing '1968 or later': 'The famous Celebrimbor (...) was a Teler, one of the three Teleri who accompanied Celeborn into exile.' CJRT then refers the reader to Unfinished Tales pp. 231-3.

'Another note' (date?) Númenórean Linear Measures, Unfinished Tales: 'a Linda of Valinor'

Marginal note to the Annals of Aman (date?) 'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde.'

Letter 347 (1972): '... for he too came from Valinor'

Adumbrated Tale: Christopher Tolkien relates the history from an unfinished text (last month of Tolkien's life): '... there she met Celeborn, who is here again a Telerin prince,...'

Any more?

Celeborn seems to have possibly been thought of as (at various points): Noldo, Nando, Avar*, Sinda, Teler of Aman (*in 1963 JRRT wrote in a letter that Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar;...' Italics my emphasis, source Hammond and Scull).

That said the official tale for me is Sindarin, as I say, published by Tolkien himself for his readership.

_______________

*The Shibboleth of Feanor is dated by Hammond and Scull as '1968 or later' in their guide, and under entry 'c. 1969 or later' in their chronology, so it would seem that a general 'around this time' is the best we can do here so far.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I also think a Sinda native to Middle Earth is more likely to remain in Middle Earth for a time at the end of the third age than a Teler who came from the blessed realm.