Who's the real hero of "Lord of the Rings"?

[Nilvasaien]

Having participated in discussions on this topic on another community, I was wondering who you consider to be the real hero of "Lord of the Rings".

[entss89]

its pippin!:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[markedel]

I suppose it would be Aragorn, in terms of heroics.

[entss89]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no its MARRY:D :D :D :D

[BeardofPants]

Either Sam or Gandalf, depending on which POV you want to go with. Without Sam, the ring probably would never have made it to Mt. Doom. But then Gandalf's sole mission in ME was to defeat Sauron, and in terms of guidance, and heroics, Gandalf is definately da man!

[Sween]

They are all pretty much Heros. In order i would have to put them Sam (without him the ring would never ever of been destroyed) Frodo (lets not underestimate the difficulty in bearing the ring) Gandalf (as it says at many points in the book without him all would of been los long ago) Aragorn then Ewoyn then Theoden then Treebeard.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

There's a certain "Zen" to that question - who is the hero of any heroic story?

Have come across different facets of this question before (mainly in terms of who the main character is), and there are good points to be made for several of them, but right now it seems to me that Frodo is the story's hero -- he accepted the impossible mission and failed at the bitter end (there's a good discussion of this at The Scrolls Of Orthanc at http://www.users.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/tolkien.htm (hope that URL still works -- I haven't been there very recently).

And yet the mission was accomplished.

There's a certain bitter comfort in knowing that one's mission is impossible and then failing at it -- it's all part of what you expect. But what do you do when it succeeds in spite of yourself? To be hailed as Frodo was on the Field of Cormallen and eventually throughout Middle-earth, and yet to know deep down that you failed. . . how awful once the initial joy and relief faded. No wonder the lesser traumas Frodo had experienced on the way still affected him as he got closer and closer to home -- he still hadn't finished his quest, deep down inside. One assumes that he eventually did, though, in Valinor.

Kind of brings meaning to Sam's comment early on, "Ah, but where will they live?" All those who wanted them found homes and a life at the end, except Frodo. That's why he's the hero.

[Sicirus]

I think Aragorn, Gandalf, and Sam were pretty much the most hard worked and heroic. As well Frodo and Eomir

[Artanis]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
but right now it seems to me that Frodo is the story's hero -- he accepted the impossible mission and failed at the bitter end
Frodo is also my hero. Even if he chose not to destroy the Ring in the end, I would not call his quest a failure. He withstood the power of the Ring for a long time, longer than anyone else would have done.

[Rána Eressëa]

Gollum.

Without him - doom would have fell upon us all.

[Ñólendil]

Hardly makes him a hero, in my book. It was by mercy and pity that the job was done, for by mercy and pity Sméagol lived on and was allowed to take the Ring one last time. But Sméagol didn't try to destroy the Ring. He lost his footing and fell into the Fire.

[Shadowfax]

I think that Sam was the hero because he helped Frodo through all of his struggles and trials. He never left him, and he was prepared to go by himself when he thought Frodo was dead. Sam definately.

[hama1]

Actually I think it was a little known character named Bob, an agraphobic ferret, who is of course only fleetingly referred to in Appendix Q of the 11th chapter of Christopher Tolkien's Lost Cat Tails and then again in a written request for a refund from a chinese laundry included in a now out of print version of "Tolkien's Letters".

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
But Sméagol didn't try to destroy the Ring. He lost his footing and fell into the Fire.

Yes, but Tolkien said himself that had Sméagol the time to reflect, he might have come to the realisation of destroying the ring himself. The nazgul would have been a small problem though. :rolleyes:

[cassiopeia]

I think Sam is the real hero - even Tolkien is with me on that one (he says that is the Letters). He was an ordinary Hobbit who helped achieve a task the great ones couldn't.

[The Ringbearer]

Sam and Frodo for me. Frodo did all he could by carrying the Ring, and Sam urged him along, was always there for him, and even carried him up to Mt. Doom when Frodo was too weak to walk. I can't really say that one is more heroic than the other, because they did different things.
Also, if it weren't for Gandalf, nothing at all would have been accomplished! He convinced Bilbo to pass the Ring on, found out that it WAS the One Ring, then lead the whole group as far as Moria; due to circumstances beyond his control, he then took a break ;) ,and Aragorn took temporary charge.

[Urksnik the Sleek]

My problem here is that LoTR is such an ensemble piece, that I find it hard to pick just ONE!

Frodo and Sam, certainly had the most epic task, and both had a lot at risk. Frodo being the tragic hero, who does not benefit from his heroism, but without the support of Sam, he would have failed in his task. There is also the fact that, without the other characters actions elsewhere in the story, they would probably have failed anyway

Aragorn is a traditional type hero, all action and honour. He is also the one who gains the most from success.

Without Gandalf, nothing would have happened in the first place.

Even the younger hobbit and the rest of the Fellowship do such sterling work to ensure the success of the quest.

So I'm going to wimp out here and not pick any one person in particular.

[osszie]

for me personally......it has to be Theoden, even tho' he had little to do with the actual ring........his valour and honour (once restored) are remarkable for someone who had seemed so old, frail and doubtful...........a brilliant character:) .......only death was the future for theoden on the road he chose..yet he chose it!

[Ñólendil]

Yes, but Tolkien said himself that had Sméagol the time to reflect, he might have come to the realisation of destroying the ring himself. The nazgul would have been a small problem though.

What I remember is an alternate ending Tolkien set out, had Sam Gamgee shown mercy sooner. In this I believe Tolkien said that Gollum would have journeyed with the Hobbits through Mordor to Mount Doom, and then would have taken the Ring from Frodo and leaped into the Fire, both to save Frodo and finish the quest and to get the Ring again. But the fact remains that this did not happen and I don't think Gollum can be called a "hero", much less "the real hero".

[Sween]

So if i slip over when trying to steal a ring and fall into a volcano i can be a hero 2? sorry aint seeing ur reasoing. Gollum is an unfortinate person who i have pity for but hero no

[BeardofPants]

I never said I thought he was a hero, Nolendil, I just said that Tolkien thought that he COULD have redeemed himself.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Even if he chose not to destroy the Ring in the end, I would not call his quest a failure. He withstood the power of the Ring for a long time, longer than anyone else would have done.

Yes. Certainly the power of the Ring had already started to work on him before the quest, as he actually put it back in his pocket when he tried to throw it away. As he went on, it just got worse and worse, and finally at the feet of the Emyn Muil it really grabbed him, when he first used it without putting it on in order to control Gollum (according to Sam's vision). As you say, most anyone else would have quickly fallen after that, but he carried it all the way to Mount Doom.

[Archbob the Elder]

Everything points to frodo as the "true" hero although some might say Arargorn. But in reality, it really is melkor. ;)

[Entlover]

I am torn. In his letters somewhere Tolkien says it is Samwise, but I can't accept that. It has to be Frodo. That probably says more about me than the story, though. It's just that in the beginning Frodo knows what he's doing, and Sam just goes along out of loyalty and duty. I go with Frodo.
Aragorn, Gandalf, and others all had their essential parts to play, so it's true that it was a team effort. But the story is Frodo's.

[Ñólendil]

I never said I thought he was a hero, Nolendil, I just said that Tolkien thought that he COULD have redeemed himself.

And I never said that he could not be redeemed, but only that he wasn't a or the hero. So our points don't cross.

[hama1]

I AM TELLING YOU...IT IS BOB THE FERRET....

[katya]

i would have to say frodo. after all he is the ring bearer. but there were a lot of people who did really heroic things. that i suppose is the difference. frodo is also my personal hero because of other reasons. and hey anyone as boring as frodo might seem has to be the hero right?

[The Lady of Ithilien]

In his letters somewhere Tolkien says it is Samwise Well, he did get the last line of the book, as well as Bag End, his very own mallorn, the office of mayor for as long as he wanted, good health and large family, lived happily ever until Rosie passed on, at which point he got to go to Valinor. Not bad. :)

Given the theme of service that runs through the book that just might be the answer.

[Sicirus]

I think that almost everyone who was invlved with the war and destruction of the ring are heros cause one person could not do it alon. it took practicly the whole of Middle earth to battle. One person could not of fought all the armies of evil. So i believe that almost everyone was a hero.

[Nilvasaien]

Thanks to the many of you who have responded.
Some of my friends continue to have a running battle trying to answer this question. The most contention seems to be between the "Frodo friends" and the "Sam supporters".
Interestingly enough I've never seen anyone try to make the argument that the title character is the hero of the story.
I've come to the conclusion that there is no one hero; the defeat of Sauron and the destruction of the Ring was due to the actions of more than one individual. Of course, that's just my opinion. I always enjoy the insights of others. Please continue the debate!

[Sween]

i dont think this question has an answer. I think a better question who was the least hero? Myt vote goes to either legolas and gimli

[barrelrider110]

In strictest terms the hero of the story is Frodo, but Sam is Frodo's hero.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

WELL SAID BARRELRIDER!

Everyone seems to consider Sam the hero... but for some reason I don't really... "Fate" chose Frodo for a reason! **I'm sure Sam couldn't have done any better if HE had carried the ring that long.*** I think Frodo is more of a leader, but Sam is a very essential sidekick.

-~*Sminty*~-

[barrelrider110]

Sminty_Smeagol, Thank you.
Your compliment does me great honor.

[Spock]

We are. Just for reading the entire works as many times as we all have.

[barrelrider110]

For that matter, I would add Rayner Unwin to the list. He's the boy whose report encouraged his father to publish The Hobbit, and afterward suggested to Tolkien to write a "second Hobbit."

[Spock]

Yes indeed. He was included in one of the tv special included on the DVD I have. He passed away shortly after his interview. Hear, Hear for Unwin!!

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Have thought of another reason in support of the "Sam As Hero" school of thought: Up until the moment he handed the Ring back to Frodo, Bilbo had been the only individual in history (who had worn it) to give it up of his own free will, and even so he had needed all of Gandalf's help just in his own home far from Mordor. And here's Sam, in Mordor, on the wrong side of the Watchers at the gate, too, with a Nazgul overhead (though this isn't known to him at the time), and facing a hopeless task, and he just hands the Ring over to Frodo and never thinks of it again (and so neither do we--took more decades than I care to admit for that to dawn on me).

Wow! Have changed my mind -- it's Samwise Gamgee, definitely.

[Ñólendil]

I don't there is a "real" hero. Every hero in the Lord of the Rings is a hero and that's that.

[Artanis]

Oh come on Ñólendil :) , you must think that some of the characters in LoTR achieved more than the others. Ok, the good guys were all heroes in some way, but some of them were more heroic than others.

[thingol]

i would supose that it was aragorn or gandalf:D

[thingol]

wow i thougth that the only ones from norway was me and frodo1990! anyway id supose aragorn or gandalf are the real heroes in lord of the rings

[RosieCotton]

I HAVE RETURNED TO THE ENTMOOT!
I couldn't stay away for too long. I am back :D
As most of you know, I am an avid Sam fan, so I think he is the hero.
However, Lord of the Rings is the type of story where everything has to go just right to get the outcome it did. You could say anyone is the hero. Shadowfax could be the hero. Farmer Maggot could be ther hero. Heck, Shelob could be the hero if you really think about it. Its just the way all the events worked out where the Ring was successully destroyed. But, heres my list.
1) Samwise
2) Frodo (carrying the Ring was a tough job)
3) Gandalf, Aragorn, Eowyn, and Thedon all tie
~Rosie~

[Entlover]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
I think Frodo is more of a leader, but Sam is a very essential sidekick.-~*Sminty*~-

I agree. I hope they manage to make Frodo's leadership qualities come out more in the movies to come. (and maybe improve his balance.)

[Ñólendil]

you must think that some of the characters in LoTR achieved more than the others. Ok, the good guys were all heroes in some way, but some of them were more heroic than others.

Sure, but I don't think that's any cause for labelling some of the heroes "real" (thereby implying others to be "fake"). Is Samwise Gamgee the real hero, and Frodo Baggins the fake one? What rubbish is that?

Frodo failed as a stereotypical hero, but he was a hero. I don't think Sam was any more a hero than Frodo.

The two first senses I have come across in the Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary are: 2 a : exhibiting or marked by courage and daring b : supremely noble or self-sacrificing

Does Sam exhibit more courage and daring than Frodo? Is he nobler? Does he make more self-sacrifices? I don't think so. In fact I think by these definitions Frodo is more heroic. People like Gandalf and Elrond feared to take the Ring to hide it and didn't like the idea of handling it too much either. Frodo Baggins bore it much longer than Sam ever did, and he took it all the way to Mount Doom, expieriencing severe moral, mental and physical torture along the way. He did the best he could and that was damn better than most, maybe better than anybody's best. Tolkien said that "maybe" no one else would have gotten so far. Gandalf would would have been vying with Sauron for the Dark Lord championship long before the time it took for Frodo to make it to the Cracks of Doom. Frodo is a hero and it's an insult to the character to call someone else "the real hero".

[The Ringbearer]

I think that by "real" it was meant that they did the most or something like that, not that everyone else was a "fake" hero.
But that post was beautiful! :)

[Ñólendil]

Thank you!

If it comes down to: who accomplished the most?, my answer would be Gandalf.

[Erawyn]

I think at the beginning of the book, Frodo definitely. He takes the ring when no one else will etc. But by the end (especially in the last book) Sam really is the one who i guess saves the day. And of course, Gandalf!

[Beleg Strongbow]

One word: Gandalf.

[Beruthiel]

Oh dear. I must agree, first and foremost it's Frodo.
But as I grew up, I learned that there is a hero in each of the characters. (Barring the baddies.)
Each character is meant to appeal to a different type of person, I think. Note the characters diversity! Smart ones, dumb ones, young ones, old ones, men, dwarves, elves and hobbits, grand wise old wizards - women - it runs the whole spectrum. There is a hero there for all of us to identify with.

I attached onto Aragorn and Galadriel as my personal favorites, but Frodo of course is the sweet little heart grabber of the books.
:D

[RosieCotton]

Originally posted by Beruthiel
Each character is meant to appeal to a different type of person, I think. Note the characters diversity! Smart ones, dumb ones, young ones, old ones, men, dwarves, elves and hobbits, grand wise old wizards - women - it runs the whole spectrum. There is a hero there for all of us to identify with.

I agree completely. It depends on your point of view, just about everyone in the books could be considered a hero.
~Rosie~

[cassiopeia]

Maybe a bad guy could be called a hero, from Nolendil's definition. Perhaps the orcs and evil men.

[Ñólendil]

But Orks and evil Men are not noble.

[barrelrider110]

Many in Lord of the Rings performed heroic acts. There is but one "hero" of the Lord of the Rings -- it is Frodo Baggins of the Shire.

As Ñólendil so well stated:
In fact I think by these definitions Frodo is more heroic. People like Gandalf and Elrond feared to take the Ring to hide it and didn't like the idea of handling it too much either. Frodo Baggins bore it much longer than Sam ever did, and he took it all the way to Mount Doom, expieriencing severe moral, mental and physical torture along the way. He did the best he could and that was damn better than most, maybe better than anybody's best.
add to the list the fact that it was Frodo's choice to spare Gollum, the ultimate destroyer of the ring.

Gandalf was his advisor, Aragorn was his champion, and Sam was his friend and squire.

You could call Sam Frodo's hero, the wind beneath his wings so to speak, and I love him dearly, but I do believe the mantle of The Real Hero of the Story belongs to Frodo.

[RosieCotton]

Heck, you could consider Sauron the hero if you wanted. Without him there would have been no adventure and Sam, Frodo, and Gandalf wouldn't have become as heroic in our eyes. We would never even know about them! You could call the Balrog a hero...he took Gandalf away from the company, causing necessary things to happen, and then when Gandalf came back he was tougher, he was Gandalf the White.

[barrelrider110]

All those characters are villains, antagonists, bad guys, etc. which rules them out (unless your last post was intended to be sarcastic).

I thought that the purpose of this thread was to debate on who is the one singular individual whom you consider to be the hero of the story. If everyone who did something heroic could be considered "the hero" we wouldn't have a debate, would we?

[RosieCotton]

Originally posted by barrelrider110
All those characters are villains, antagonists, bad guys, etc. which rules them out (unless your last post was intended to be sarcastic).

I thought that the purpose of this thread was to debate on who is the one singular individual whom you consider to be the hero of the story. If everyone who did something heroic could be considered "the hero" we wouldn't have a debate, would we?

Sorry, barrelrider. You're right. My vote goes to Samwise Gamgee, with Frodo in a close second. I read somewhere that a definition of a hero is the person who grows through the most changes as a person (their personality, how they look at things, ect.) I have to vote for Sam.

[LuthienTinuviel]

Melkor is the hero. without him sauron would never have come about his evil ways..

[RosieCotton]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
Melkor is the hero. without him sauron would never have come about his evil ways..

Now there is a new way to look at things :D There's no story without that rebellious Melkor. :D
~Rosie~

[Elenka]

I haven't finished the third book yet so I"m not in a position to make my full opinion, but at the time being, I would say Sam. He has a hero's heart. He stuck with Frodo until he thought Frodo died, and then he decided to continue the journey by himself. Very brave.

[Radagast The Brown]

I'll do a (little) list - the real 4 heroes (choose one?)
1. Frodo
2. Gandalf
3. Aragorn
4. Sam

[Telperion]

I'd have to say Sam. He is the most loyal companion you could ever imagine. He saves the ring from being found by the orcs when he believes Frodo to be dead and he then rescues Frodo when he realizes he is alive.

[Celebrian]

It would have to be Sam. Without him Shelob would have killed Frodo, and Sauron would have got the ring. He was with Frodo the whole time, and was in almost as much danger. In the end, he finally had to carry Frodo! Sam is definitley the real hero!

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Hardly makes him a hero, in my book. It was by mercy and pity that the job was done, for by mercy and pity Sméagol lived on and was allowed to take the Ring one last time. But Sméagol didn't try to destroy the Ring. He lost his footing and fell into the Fire.

Oh sure, give the credit to everyone else who didn't destroy the Ring. By accident or purpose doesn't really end up making a difference. Gollum is a hero by sheer accident because without him Middle-earth would have been doomed. He played a bigger part than you give him credit for.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by Rána Eressëa
Oh sure, give the credit to everyone else who didn't destroy the Ring. By accident or purpose doesn't really end up making a difference. Gollum is a hero by sheer accident because without him Middle-earth would have been doomed. He played a bigger part than you give him credit for.There are more heroes there then Gollum (and I don't think he was hero anyway but I don't care if you will say he's a hero). Example: Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas (who were heroes).

[Sween]

Legolas? he did jack s*** in the book

[Rána Eressëa]

Everyone who aided in the Destruction of Sauron, by accident or purpose, is a real hero. It's quite simple. They're all heroes.

But when it comes to who really destroyed Sauron through the Ring, I say Gollum. So in a way, he becomes a pitiful hero by saving everyone through his blinding greed. :D

[katya]

ack! i said before frodo and i still pretty much think so but i am starting to be convinced of sam's hero-ness. it's so confusing. i don't like thinking so much... they are of course all heros in a way but "the real hero" is another thing. i dont think there is a real answer, but there are a lot of good ones.

[Rûdhaglarien]

Sam. No if, ands, or buts about it... Sam was the hero, yep... Sam. I realize that without Frodo and Smeagol and everyone, the mission would never have been achieved, but Sam is the real hero.

[entss89]

it could be strider.

[entss89]

wait it could be sam!:D

[entss89]

well it could be gollum because he destroyed the ring!:confused:

[entss89]

now it is really the ents this time because they practicly killed isengard and what if they did not it wouldbe terrible!:D

[Rána Eressëa]

Like I said, everyone who purposely/accidently aided in the destruction of Sauron.

[Liviaine]

FotR: Frodo/Boromir
TT: Sam
RotK: Aragorn

Overall LotR: Gandalf

He's like their dad, their leader, so I have to say he's the hero of it.

[The Ringbearer]

How 'bout: Gandalf, Strider, Legolas, Gimli, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Boromir, Theoden, Eowen, Faramir, Gollum, Elrond Glorfindell, Bilbo, Tom Bombadil, Treebeard and the Ents, Wormtongue (he killed Sauruman), Galadriel, Eomer, and Shadowfax. Everyone contributed in some way, so they all helped destroy the Ring, so as Ran Eressea said, they are all the heros, right?

Did I spell Glorfindell right? *embarrassed giggle*:)








I still think Frodo and Sam are the heroes though!:D

[Lanelf]

Sam Sam Sam Sam Sam Sam Sam Sam Sam! And Gollum, poor li'l dude... And, well Frodo too, and Aragorn, and, well, Everyone! Except I don't like Gandalf, but I won't go into that now...;)
Sorry about the repetitive "Sam"'s. Won't happen again...probably.:)
Lanelf.
PS: Ringbearer, it's Glorfindel with one 'L'. Close enough, though. You should see some spellings: Glofinedll, Glorifindel, Gloifindel...:eek: 'The typos go ever on and on, down from the keys where they began...'

[Entlover]

Frodo.

Sam is cool, but think what would have happened if the ring had been found in Sam's house? Panic, running to Frodo for advice . . .no way could Sam have set off on an unknown journey as Frodo did. He matured along the way, but without Frodo the ring would never have been destroyed.

[Caleb]

...You can be a hero too, cause saving our planet is the thing to do, lootong and poluuting is not the way...

[Harad]

Anybody who is essential to the successful quest is a co-hero.

[Entlover]

Originally posted by Harad
Anybody who is essential to the successful quest is a co-hero.

Illogical, Captain Kirk.
That would include people like Barliman Butterbur, who provided essential lodging and food.

Heroism implies the exercise of bravery. Only members of the fellowship and people like soldiers of Rohan qualify. Gollum is not a hero, he is a miserable being who was used by Fate to achieve its ends.

[Beleg Strongbow]

has to be Gandalf

[Dain]

Although not a hero in the true sence Gollum played a big part in distroying the Ring was'nt it Gollum who lead Frodo and Sam through the Dead Marshes and showed them to the land of Mordor. I know his only intrest was in getting the Ring back but on the top of Mount Doom when Frodo's strenth left him just like Isildur it was Gollums gread for the Ring that in the end distroyed the Ring without him the Ring would have remained and Sauron would have reclaimed it

[Lizra]

Hmmm, I'm liking Gandalf too! He was the man with the plan in many ways, but Frodo is the key player. I was just so happy for Gandalf when it was all said and done.

[Rána Eressëa]

I couldn't place anyone as a real hero since without the actions and aids of many others, none of them would have gotten as far as they did.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Dain
... it was Gollums gread for the Ring that in the end distroyed the Ring without him the Ring would have remained and Sauron would have reclaimed it

Poor Gollum! He was subjected to nigh on 500 years with that thing; I can't say I really blame him for crumbling. And I still say, that had he the time, he would have voluntarily disposed of the ring, at great cost to himself. If the nazgul hadn't been coming for the ring, and if the story hadn't resolved as it did, I think he probably would have thrown himself into the fires of Mt. Doom. Poor Gollum. :(

[mirial]

I think that there can really be no specifying any one person. They all worked together to destroy it, whether they were in the Black Land or not.

[Linarryl]

:(I'd love to say Legolas, but saddly I gotta say Aragorn. :(

[Tar-Elendil]

Originally posted by entss89
its pippin!:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

i have to agree!;)

[Fred Baggins]

hum... I would have to go with three people. Frodo, Frodo, and ...Frodo! *looks around at all the frowning faces* What?

[Blackboar]

I would love to say Legolas too:rolleyes: but I think it was Sam, he saved Frodo many times, he took the ring from him so it didn't get taken.
On the other hand, its Gollum, without him biting the ring from Frodo's hand and falling into the Cracks of Doom who knows what would of happened?

[Beleg Strongbow]

I think that a hero is someone who overcomes a negative situation with the intent of doing good. Gollum doesn't qualify.

[Eothain]

ARAGORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FattyBulger]

:confused: What about Bilbo?!?!?!? He got the ring from gollum in the first place and was the only guy in history to ever (willingly) give the ring away 4 good!:) :D

[durin's bane]

I think they're all heroes. Each member of the Fellowship did something to save Middle-earth.

[entss89]

pleazzzz is that a ? , of corse its aragorn!

[RosieCotton]

Sam!

But I guess you can't say just one person... if you took out any one of them, the Quest would probably have failed.

Rosie

[Legolaslvr!]

Hmmmmmmm!!!!!!


That's a tough one I think that all the Fellowship has done a great job of protecting the ring from Rivendell to Mt.Doom even though there is a few deaths here and there!


But I think Sam protects the ring the most!

Other than Frodo for keeping his hopes up and being so brave.

[FattyBulger]

Anyone who had anything to do with the ring (now that I think about it) must be a hero. There were lots of rolls to be played that (when complete) created heros.:D :D :D

Most heros of the second and third ages are heros[PHP]

[Sicirus]

Originally posted by FattyBulger
Anyone who had anything to do with the ring (now that I think about it) must be a hero. There were lots of rolls to be played that (when complete) created heros.:D :D :D

Most heros of the second and third ages are heros[PHP]

There were alot of bad creatures who were the servants of Sauron who "Had something to do with the ring" but were not any help when it came to its destruction. Actually they made it harder.

[Arathorn]

I agree with most of you that every being who took part in the quest to destroy the One Ring is a hero.

However, a friend of a friend of a friend wrote the following letter which somehow got forwarded to me. He was so disgusted with the way the Red Book depicted him. He kept quiet until some guy decided to make more money at his expense by making a movie with references to the book (The BLASTED LYING VERSION OF THE WAR OF THE RING!). At the risk of this starting to become an urban legend, here it is on the following post:

[Arathorn]

ok, finally we hear from the evil lord himself...

Good evening, mortals, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Sauron,the Lord
of the Rings.

Caught the title, did you? I should expect so. Most of you idiots might
remember the title to the movie with Frodo, Legolas, and/or Aragorn in it.
Which is why we're going to have a little conversation.

*I* am the Lord of the Rings. Not some midget with hairy feet and blue
eyes the size of saucer plates. Not some pretty boy with pointy ears and a
blond wig. Not some loser king-turned-ranger-turned-king badly in need of
a haircut and a shave. Me. Sauron. The Deceiver. The real
honest-to-Tolkien Lord of the Rings.

I don't mean to complain. I'm glad you came to see my movie. But you seem
to have lost focus. The bloody movie is named after ME!! It's not "Midget
Carrying A Ring," or "Cute Elf Boy," or "Sexy Ranger." It's "Lord of the
Rings." If it was about one of the above, I'm sure they would hav e
renamed it to "The Ringbearer," or some other flowery title.

I am *sick* and *tired* of you little fangirls (and a few of the fanboys)
going on about how cute Frodo was. Or how hot Legolas was. Or how sexy
Aragorn was. Are they the real stars of the movie? No. I am. Without *me*,
there would be no movie!!

Without a doubt, *I* am the most important character in the movie. Middle
Earth depends on me to oppress it and wreak havoc and evil. Do you have
any idea how hard it is to corrupt, taint, destroy, and ruin *everything*
you touch? It's not easy, let me tell you. It's hard work being an
overlord of evil! I have all these evil plans to concoct, and there's a
lot of appearances to be made. I hardly get any sleep, what with having to
keep an eye out for everything those idiots do to try and thwart me.

But do I have any fangirls? Do I have ridiculous girls who collect images
of m e, and devote entire shrines to how sexy I am? Do I get any
appreciation? No. I am unloved, uncared for, and in the end, I have to
die, just to make the heroes look good. Would you even appreciate Frodo
completely if it weren't for *my* ring? Would you like Legolas so much if
I didn't provide his targets for him to show off with a bow? Would you
think Aragorn was so sexy if he never had to draw his sword and fight off
my minions? Would you have liked the movie as much if I didn't arrange for
the dramatic deaths of at least two characters? If it weren't for me,
there'd be no movie.

Now, I know I don't have a pretty face and long, blond hair. Or big blue
eyes and a sensitive face. Or smoldering green eyes and classic good
looks. But a little appreciation would be nice. What about my lidless eye,
wreathed in flames, eh? Now that's cool.Does Frodo have a lidless eye
wreathed in flames? I think not. Hell, he can barely keep his eyes
symmetrical without photo manipulation. And what about my cool metal suit
of armor? Does Legolas have a suit of intimidating armor? No, he doesn't.

All he has is some frippy Elf clothing, and stupid braids. And he walks
like a girl. And what about my piece d' resistance? The One Ring? Does
Aragorn have the One Ring at any point of the movie? No, he's so scared of
it, he sends off the little hobbit like a coward. And he spends more time
touching Legolas and Boromir in that movie than Arwen. (Wonder

what *that's* all about, eh?)

Obviously, I have some interesting qualities I feel are overlooked.All you
fangirls (and fanboys) need to stop drooling after Frodo, Legolas, and
Aragorn. Stop it with the obsession!! You're losing focus for the movie!!
Do you think Tolkien created those characters so you could chase after
them in your sexual fantasies? I think not. The old bastard w as way too
interested in cross-dressing women to create male fantasies for you. *I*
am the star of the show. And I want to be loved for what I am, and what I
do!!

I mean, look at yourselves. Just *look* at what you've turned into.Instead
of appreciating the film, the books, or even the important message behind
the story (don't steal other people's jewelry),you chase after the male
characters in the story. I've even seen shrines to Boromir. Boromir!! He
bloody well died, you know!! The loser practically tried to rip Frodo
limb-from-limb to get the ring, and yet, you appreciate *him*, just
because he tried to save those idiots, Merry and Pippin. The fools got

everyone in trouble more times than *I* did in the film, and you still
like *them*. I barely had to do *any* evil in the first movie. Pippin was
doing a rather nice job of it all by himself.

[Arathorn]

Take the scribe of my message, J. Marie, for inst ance. The fool girl has
a shrine to naked Viggo Mortenson pictures on her hard drive. Now that's
sad. She has filled up folders of precious memory with pictures of Orlando
Bloom. She's wasted countless hours agonizing over writing fanfiction
(about Aragorn and Legolas, no less). She's seen the movie *six* times,

with no end in sight as of this writing, simply so she can drool over
Aragorn and Legolas. It's pathetic, I tell you.

Where are my shrines? Why does she go to the bathroom during the parts of
the movie before Aragorn shows up? Why does she concern herself with the
pizza grease on her hands during *my* scenes, yet didn't even notice her
brother spilling Pepsi all over her pants when Aragorn was fighting the
Nazgul? It's unfair.

She'll quote you *Gollum* before she can mention anything that I have done
to make this film great. She just shrugs and tells all her friends she
hopes Aragorn gets a nude scene in the next movie!! How degrading!!

And where were *my* Oscar nominations?? Nobody would care about Gandalf if
it weren't for *me*!! He'd be nothing without *me* to define him!! It's an
injustice!!!

And don't even get me started on the fanfiction. Where's my sex scenes?
(I'm a lover, not a fighter, you know.) My thoughts and angst?? Where's my
slash moments (I personally think that Gandalf and I need to get the
hook-up), or the times when I kidnap Arwen from Aragorn? Where's the Mary
Sues that try to get *me* to marry them? I'll have you know I have some

very nice love poetry stored up for just that occasion. It's always about
Aragorn, Legolas, or Frodo!!

I'm asking for some focus here. For people to recognize that the Lord of
the Rings is about ME. The Lord of the Rings. Not the ranger who needs to
shave. Not the Elf who looks like a girl at a distance. And c ertainly not
some computer-midget-ized hobbit with eyes too big for his face. I'll get
him. And his little dog, too.

I *demand* equal rights. I want web shrines, folders full of images of me
on your hard drive, people paying eight bucks a pop just to see *me* on
screen repeatedly, fanfiction, love scenes, Mary Sue fics, grand
kidnapping the damsel scenes, horrific storylines, and angst-filled
stories!! I *am* the Lord of the Rings!! It's all about ME!! ME!!!
MEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

Well, he hates the books as well, go figure...:rolleyes:

[Lalaith]

It's definitely SAM. (Although I think it should be Faramir, because he is just so nice and cute.)
And Eowyn is also pretty much a hero. I mean, for the fact that women don't got to wars, she is a pretty good fighter and braver than many men.

[Lanelf]

Hey, Arathorn - Sauron does have fangirls. Your 'Friend of a friend of a friend' does have a point - he doesn't have nearly as many shrines as Legolas or Aragorn, but he has had at least two fics written where he has fangirls. Here are the links: (they're long, and one's a work-in-progress, but they're so funny!)
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=644826 (that's the first one - you'll need to read it to get the next) and http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=950294. Enjoy!
Lanelf.

[Arathorn]

I knew I shouldna accepted that job by the dark lord and posted that letter. :eek: Now I'll have to wade through those fanfics starting tomorrow and my weekend is RUINED! RUINED! RUINED!
Go away...Leave now and never come back...

[ElfFriend]

IT'S GOLLUM...DUHHH! WITH OUT HIM PLUNGING INTO MT. DOOM WHILE DOING A VICTORY DANCE THE QUEST WOULD HAVE FAILED

[Elvedans]

The hero of the bookis definitly the Ring for me. Without it Rivendell and Lothlorien would wither, the Elves would pass into the West sooner and worst of all there would be no LOTR!!!!!:eek:

[Celebréiel]

Id say Sam! He helps Frodo alot! So either him or Aragorn, yeah Frodo bears the ring but w/out Sams help, hed be lost. :D Samwise the brave.
~Celebréiel

[FattyBulger]

There were alot of bad creatures who were the servants of Sauron who "Had something to do with the ring" but were not any help when it came to its destruction. Actually they made it harder.

I know they made it harder but without them there wouldn't be a third age and a war of the ring.

[Limnodel]

I think: Sam, Gandalf, Aragorn, Pip and Merry, Frodo 34 places from last, and... the fox who is relatively aware of the 3 hobbits is the least heroic
:p

[Limnodel]

Dont ask why though :)

[druss]

i can't nominate any one character so i'll just nominate a race (i know greedy). the hobbits obviously. frodo, sam, merry, pippin all overcame their respective shortcomings(!!!) to become heros of Gondor and ME. during the sacking of the shire ordinary hobbits cast off the oppressive yolk of sharky to show that they are not to be messed with. if you dont agree then captains Meriadoc and Peregrin will shortly(sorry couldn't help myself) be knocking at your door

[Ragnarok]

Frodo for taking the mission and bearing the ring to the cracks of doom although Gollum destroyed it by falling into the crack with the ring.

[Elf Girl]

Yes. Even though Frodo nearly failed in the end, he bore the Ring all the way to Mordor. He is the true hero of Lord of the Rings.

[Entlover]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
Frodo for taking the mission

Have to agree with Ragnarok -- and Gollun is irrelevant. If Frodo hadn't had pity on him, he wouldn't have been in a position to "accidentally" destroy the ring. It was Frodo's mercy that won the battle.

[Indril Anarion]

Originally posted by druss
i can't nominate any one character so i'll just nominate a race (i know greedy). the hobbits obviously. frodo, sam, merry, pippin all overcame their respective shortcomings(!!!) to become heros of Gondor and ME. during the sacking of the shire ordinary hobbits cast off the oppressive yolk of sharky to show that they are not to be messed with. if you dont agree then captains Meriadoc and Peregrin will shortly(sorry couldn't help myself) be knocking at your door

I agree...all the Hobbits seem to be the most heroic mostly because they are the ones that got the most inner growth out of the entire adventure...I mean, sure Aragorn became king, and Legolas and Gimli became friends, but the Hobbits are the ones that truly showed inner and outer heroism, they stuck together and accomplished great things :D

[Lalaith]

Okay, trying not to be influenced by my favourite characters. .... Still Eowyn. She is a real hero.

[Jonathan]

LotR has many heroes, but if the 'real hero' means the main character, I'd say it's Frodo. Everything in the books had to do with the Ringbearer and that makes him the 'real hero'.

[IthilienPrincess]

I think its all about how you define "hero". I mean the obvious kick-butt heroes are Legolas and Aragorn. The courageous hero would be Frodo. And the loyal stick-with-ya-til-the-end hero is Sam.All the characters had a role in destroying the ring.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
Gollum.

Without him - doom would have fell upon us all.

Gollum is the perfect hero. Pathetic. Every man. Instinctual. And driven by only one purpose. To have his precious. After that he wants nothing else. No great powers. No great wealth. Just to be left alone. And he never does any harm with the ring. He only allows it to harm him. Hes my hero.

[Bombadillo]

I think it's Gandalf. Without him, so many of the accomplishments of the fellowship would have been impossible. True it was Frodo who literally destroyed the Ring, but any one of them could have done that. If you weigh out all the things each character did (which I won't do here, don't worry), Gandalf proves to be the most important.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Any one of them could not have done that. It took a great will to resist the corruption of the Ring to the very brink of the Crack of Doom.

[Telmelion]

Frodo is definently the hero. Obviously his list of accomplishments(getting the Ring to Mount Doom) looks shabbier than Gandalf(defeating a Balrog, saving Rohan at Helm's Deep, breaking Saruman's staff, etc.) it still must be realized that if Frodo had not gotten the ring to Mount Doom, nothing that Gandalf or any other character in LotR could have stopped the domination of Sauron.

And it is also likely that Frodo alone of all of the suggested heroes of LotR could have gotten to Mt. Doom. Gandalf, Galadriel, and Aragorn refused it because they knew that they could not bear it themselves. Sam likely would have been corrupted(remember in Cirith Ungol he puts the ring on arbitrarily and thinks about challenging Sauron, things Frodo never did). I'd say Frodo is the true hero.

[gimli7410]

gollum,frodo,sam,gandalf,and aragorn

[Beren, Son of Barahir]

A hero is one person who overcame all and single-handedly took their men to victory. I think that all of the characters each did their part to help the other live so they could, together, save the side of good.
Personally though I give much respect to Sam because he did not have a lot of experiance in combat or sneaking around an enemy lair and to remain calm and follow through with your plan must take a lot of courage....so Sam...I salute you!!!

[Anglorfin]

Sam was the driving force behind Frodo's individual success just as Gandalf was the driving force behind the armies of Middle Earth's success IMO.

[Bombadillo]

Originally posted by Bombadillo
True it was Frodo who literally destroyed the Ring, but any one of them could have done that.I meant he was physically there at Mount Doom where he accidently destroyed the Ring. Anyone could have made that accomplishment. Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Any one of them could not have done that. It took a great will to resist the corruption of the Ring to the very brink of the Crack of Doom. Perhaps some of them couldn't, but I still believe Gandalf could would have been able to if he wanted to.

[Anglorfin]

I think the temptation would have been greater for Gandalf. Even he said that he would not take it becaue the temptation would be too great and the consequences too serious.

[Bombadillo]

True, so he played it safe, but IMO he could have overcome its power if he decided to carry it. Although it probably would have tried harder if you get me.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, if I remember correctly Tolkien went into a bit of detail on what would have happened if Gandalf had gotten the Ring, and he didn't overcome it. Remember, the Ring was bound to the Will of Sauron, who was a Maia, just as Gandalf was, but I believe Tolkien said he was of far higher order.

[Strongbow]

And the real hero is....

Hama!

or Manwe since he sent Mithrandir

[Anglorfin]

Originally posted by Bombadillo
True, so he played it safe, but IMO he could have overcome its power if he decided to carry it. Although it probably would have tried harder if you get me.

The Ring would have seemed greater to Gandalf because of his stature. The temptation really would not have been greater or less, but it would have matched Gandalf's desires to use it out of good. Gandalf would have had more reason to use it, in that way the temptation would have been greater for him.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
Gollum is the perfect hero. Pathetic. Every man. Instinctual. And driven by only one purpose. To have his precious. After that he wants nothing else. No great powers. No great wealth. Just to be left alone. And he never does any harm with the ring. He only allows it to harm him. Hes my hero.

Now, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I definitely don't think he was meant to be an everyman figure. And also, he was not driven by that one purpose; also by deep malice. Remember, he wanted to kill both Sam and Frodo by the end of the Two Towers. And as for great wealth, certainly not mounds and chests of gold and gems, but his perception of wealth he definitely desired. Remember the showdown of the two sides. "Fish three times a day" or something along those lines, he wanted to be served, not to catch it himself. And the part about harm...remember, he killed a number of Goblins in the Misty Mountains, and he used the Ring for darker purposes in his early days, which is why he was cast out of his clain.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Now, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I definitely don't think he was meant to be an everyman figure. And also, he was not driven by that one purpose; also by deep malice. Remember, he wanted to kill both Sam and Frodo by the end of the Two Towers. And as for great wealth, certainly not mounds and chests of gold and gems, but his perception of wealth he definitely desired. Remember the showdown of the two sides. "Fish three times a day" or something along those lines, he wanted to be served, not to catch it himself. And the part about harm...remember, he killed a number of Goblins in the Misty Mountains, and he used the Ring for darker purposes in his early days, which is why he was cast out of his clain.

oh finally caught up to another one of my gollum posts did you.

i think he killed only as a reaction to something. never for the sake of just killing. never in a human kinda way where he would seek out others to interact with and have conflicts with. his first focus was being alone. and then if something threatened him or got in his way or seemed a danger to him then killing it became a very real option. as it would in any animal....

and if having fish served to him three times a day is considered the height of greed then we should all be more like gollum my precious.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
oh finally caught up to another one of my gollum posts did you.
... never in a human kinda way where he would seek out others to interact with and have conflicts with. his first focus was being alone.

But remember that he was originally sent away from his people because he was a malicious mischief-maker. It was only during that time that he isolated himself, the Ring making him resentful of the others' treatment of him, but really can you blame them?

and if having fish served to him three times a day is considered the height of greed then we should all be more like gollum my precious. [/QUOTE]

Ooh, that's a great comment!:)

[Seladeen the Hobbit]

in a way, there is no main hero. they all seem to have done something important in their own way.

[Bombadillo]

Originally posted by Anglorfin Originally posted by Bombadillo True, so he played it safe, but IMO he could have overcome its power if he decided to carry it. Although it probably would have tried harder if you get me. The Ring would have seemed greater to Gandalf because of his stature. The temptation really would not have been greater or less, but it would have matched Gandalf's desires to use it out of good. Gandalf would have had more reason to use it, in that way the temptation would have been greater for him. Yeah you get me. He would have still overcome its power, despite this fact. That is what I meant.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by azalea
But remember that he was originally sent away from his people because he was a malicious mischief-maker. It was only during that time that he isolated himself, the Ring making him resentful of the others' treatment of him, but really can you blame them?


To which I would add "remember that he deliberately plotted to kill Sam, and to relish the killing". If premeditation of murder and "malicious mischief-making" as azalea put it can be accounted to instinct and raw desire for survival and the Ring, then in the name of Elbereth and of Luthien, what cannot?

Also, don't forget that he hated all Baggins because of Bilbo. Is this what you admire, despisal of a group, because of an individual?

Regarding greed: it's all relative. It's not something so simplistic as "be like Gollum, he only wanted fish." Gollum's greed was merely different from ours.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by azalea
But remember that he was originally sent away from his people because he was a malicious mischief-maker. It was only during that time that he isolated himself, the Ring making him resentful of the others' treatment of him, but really can you blame them?

ya but like i said before he was cast out and DIDNT go find some other group to bother or even wonder around nomad like still interacting here and there. NO he found his way to an underground place FAR from ANYONE. where he could finally be at peace (call it tormented peace if you like but peace from the living none the less). And there he stayed. for years and years and life times. and he was as content as you can get when your brain is being twisted by a powerful malicious force.

[Psycho Kitty]

To which I would add "remember that he deliberately plotted to kill Sam, and to relish the killing". If premeditation of murder and "malicious mischief-making" as azalea put it can be accounted to instinct and raw desire for survival and the Ring, then in the name of Elbereth and of Luthien, what cannot?

to which I would add remember that this ["malicious mischief-making"] happened when he FIRST got the ring. do you really think he put the ring on and bam he was an animal and smeagol was gone? no. thats just dumb. it takes time to corrupt even the weak. and being animal like DOESNT mean losing your brain power. obviously he could still talk and still communicate with people. so obviously he could still think. and feeling pleasure in killing something because you hate it only supports what ive been saying all along. that theres no stupid psychological barriers getting in the way of his basic desires like there is in you and me. sometimes id like to kill people but i dont. cause i worry about stupid things like what other people would think of me and what they would do to me and even the feelings of the poor stupid fool i wanna kill. gollum has had these petty human morals mostly stripped from him and he can act and KILL like an animal would.

Also, don't forget that he hated all Baggins because of Bilbo. Is this what you admire, despisal of a group, because of an individual?

nope i just admire him.

Regarding greed: it's all relative. It's not something so simplistic as "be like Gollum, he only wanted fish." Gollum's greed was merely different from ours.

no its just you were making the argument that gollum is greedy because he wants fish three times a day. my point was in the face of people craving power and gold and all this stuff how can you possibly condem gollum of all people as being greedy. there are better characters in the book to represent the ideal of greed in my opinion.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

You know, not nearly all animals act like your talking. There are hundreds of species of gregarious and extremely social animals. Also, premeditation and planning is simply not animal.

[Psycho Kitty]

Also, premeditation and planning is simply not animal.

uh i think quite a few biologists, zoologists and pet owners would take issue with that statement. ever seen lions hunt?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

There is a big difference between hunting and stalking and what Gollum was doing. His tracking and hunting of the Hobbits, I think wouldn't be against that. But his deliberate planning, I disagree about.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
to which I would add remember that this ["malicious mischief-making"] happened when he FIRST got the ring. do you really think he put the ring on and bam he was an animal and smeagol was gone? no. thats just dumb. it takes time to corrupt even the weak. and being animal like DOESNT mean losing your brain power. obviously he could still talk and still communicate with people. so obviously he could still think. and feeling pleasure in killing something because you hate it only supports what ive been saying all along. that theres no stupid psychological barriers getting in the way of his basic desires like there is in you and me. sometimes id like to kill people but i dont. cause i worry about stupid things like what other people would think of me and what they would do to me and even the feelings of the poor stupid fool i wanna kill. gollum has had these petty human morals mostly stripped from him and he can act and KILL like an animal would.


I see what you mean; however, I happen to think that Gollum did/would feel guilt. It would manifest itself as self-pity, but I think somewhere inside he would hate himself even more for having killed (Sam, Frodo, or whomever). I think self-loathing is a good term to describe his state -- I think he hated himself because of both what he had thrown away (if only he hadn't killed Deagol and been a borderline nasty, he might have avoided his current situation) and what he had become. He hated himself but turned that hate outwards onto any who crossed his path (men, elves, orcs). He was crafty yet simple; the simplicity was also a factor in his actions and reactions. Okay, now I'm just rambling.:)

[Elfhelm]

A puppet is different from an animal. An animal might kill for food, but some, like jays, kill for territory. In these cases, the killing is instinctive; survival based. Humans also kill for these reasons, but they use petty "morals" to justify their killing. Under all the talk, however, it's still territory and food that governs human war and other forms of murder. Gollum, however, is not motivated by territory or by hunger. He has no will left and is just a shell of a being that is totally manipulated and enslaved by the Ring. He's not even like a drug addict because the drugs don't make them kill and steal, even though they would prefer that lame excuse. He's more like a religious fanatic that is full of justifications for his self-loathing and reprehensible stances, but he's really just a tool for another being's desires.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

As a side note, I'm curious as to how food and territory governed the atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein, or Elizabeth Balory?

[Elfhelm]

It IS a side note, which some intelligent educated sociologist or psychologist who specializes in megalomania will have to explain.

My point here is, Gollum is a follower, an adherent, a slave, a puppet, and not animalistic at all.

My point is also that drugs do not make people kill and steal. If they choose to blame the drugs, that's because they are whiners. Religion, however, does tell people it is OK to kill and steal, and promises rewards if you obey, just like the Ring.

p.s. That is why Gollum is tie with the rope. It symbolizes his enslavement to the will of the Ring.

p.p.s. Sam is the real hero of the story. :p

[Gwaimir Windgem]

What religion are you referring to? :confused:

p. p. s. I'm beginning to agree. :p Though I still think Frodo is very much a hero.

[Linaewen]

*sigh* Still can't decide between Sam and Frodo, as was shown by the Most Impressive Male character thread. Frodo was the Ringbearer, but Sam performed more notable deeds. Ah!

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Gollum, however, is not motivated by territory or by hunger. He has no will left and is just a shell of a being that is totally manipulated and enslaved by the Ring. He's not even like a drug addict because the drugs don't make them kill and steal, even though they would prefer that lame excuse. He's more like a religious fanatic that is full of justifications for his self-loathing and reprehensible stances, but he's really just a tool for another being's desires.

hes nothing like a religious fanatic what are you talking about? of course drug addiction makes peope kill and steal. and hes very much like a drug addict in so many ways. his mind has been completely altered by the 'substance' that he craves. he no longer cares for anything other then the most simple things to keep him alive JUST like an addict. if that substance is taken away from him hes willing to go to the ends of the earth to get it. even kill for it if he has to. he must have the substance with him and in his posession but he cant deal with actually 'using' the substance to often because otherwise it would overwelm him. this substance has actually physically changed his brain just like drugs do.

[Elfhelm]

I agree about the addictive behavior. But I don't think you're right about the nature of addiction. Although I agree about most of the rest of what you said, the primary point I know from experience is not true is this:

Drugs do not MAKE people steal and kill. Even in the deepest part of addiction, it is still a conscious decision. Only a coward, loser, whiner would blame an external force for their own choices. I will cite William S. Burroughs as an authority, maybe throw in Jim Carroll. Both will back me up on this.

The fact is, Gollum is not beyond the point where he can choose. Like the suicide bombers, he has not totally lost himself. But the Ring is making him promises. In their case, it's 72 virgins or some such harps and wings nonses. In Sam's case it was the most beautiful garden. In Gollum's case, we don't know the exact promise, but certainly it is as glittering as the nonsense the religious leaders promise those who kill for them.

[Psycho Kitty]

Sure it’s a conscious decision. But the mind is really just a machine. And anything that can corrupt it will make certain decisions much more likely. I have my doubts gollum really could have made ‘the right decisions’ in the face of such enormous evil corrupting power. I think it was like 1000 heroin addictions to him and it stripped away so much of his ‘human’ complexity and left that ‘flee or kill or be killed’ mind set. Even smokers have a really hard time resisting the urge to do something they know will kill THEM eventually. And the ring was way beyond any normal drug. I don’t think he had a chance.