mood of silmarillion

[aeglos]

I went back and read the Sil for the third time, thanks to forums like this it was easier to understand. However, reading it this time I recalled my first reaction to it. It is a very gloomy book. If Tolkien was using it as a basis for LOTR it would have had a more dryl historical tone. But it is very moody and all the charactors are doomed.

Since he died before it could be finished I wonder where, if he had lived he would have taken this theme. When I read the LOTR it is an upbeat adventure,why is the SIL so dark, and why at the end when their last great enemy is gone do the elves give in and start leaving Middle Earth?

[markedel]

Tolkien lived through the Somme. That would make Tom Bombadil less jolly.

[BeardofPants]

I like the mood of the Sil. *shrugs*

[aeglos]

The Somme aside, if Tolkien intended the Sil to be a reference for the LOTR, then why aren't both books gloomy. Perhaps they were written in advance of the LOTR rather then afterword.

[markedel]

The origins of the sil were far earlier (the first fall of Gondolin was written around 1916-17). The Sil was never intended for publication, and is not a complete coherant work, but an edited collection. Its sources are diverse and contradictory and written up at all sorts of different periods.

LOTR was a novel, set in the name place, and arguably aiming for many of the same things as the silmarillion itself, but it is still a novel, and an evolving one with three distinct moods-the Hobbitlike book I (especially the first few chapters), the rest of the novel up to Book VI, and book VI itself which is written more like the silmarillion then the rest.

[BeardofPants]

Actually, Tolkien DID try and get the Sil published in conjunction with LOTR. Unwin turned it down.

[Urksnik the Sleek]

If you think about it, there are an awful lot of gloomy bits in LoTR too!
Because it has a more or less triumphant ending, we tend to gloss over the bits where everything seems to be going wrong and everybody is likely to die.

[aeglos]

Actually, the chief gloom is the abandonment of the Elves by the Ainur. Could this be a reflection on Tolkien's beliefs? After all they were the ones unable to deal with Melkor and the destruction he wrought. How could they expect the Elves to accomplish what they could not. Maybe Tolkien used this as a parady of the politics of his time with no government willing to tackle the social ills of the system.

Whatever the reason, everyone is doomed from the start. Of special torment is the story of Tuor, this guy really suffered.

LOTR does get gloomy, especially after the fall of Gandalf and the death of Boromir, but since there were so many stories going on at once, there was no dwelling on the gloom. Gregg

[Artanis]

Originally posted by aeglos
Actually, the chief gloom is the abandonment of the Elves by the Ainur. Could this be a reflection on Tolkien's beliefs? After all they were the ones unable to deal with Melkor and the destruction he wrought. How could they expect the Elves to accomplish what they could not.
I don't see it that way. Remember the Noldorin Elves led by Feanor left Aman to live in ME of their own free will, against council of the Ainur. And the Doom of the Noldor came as a response to the evil deeds of Feanor and those who followed him, particularly the kinslaying in Alqualonde.

Also I don't think Tolkien wrote his books to comment on society in either way, but that's just my feeling after reading him.

Of special torment is the story of Tuor, this guy really suffered.
Perhaps you are referring to Turin, not Tuor? :)

[Shadowfax]

I liked the darker mood of the Sil. And yes, I think that LotR had a darker mood as well - the Elves are fading, etc. Both are beautiful books!

[Ñólendil]

LOTR was a novel, set in the name place, and arguably aiming for many of the same things as the silmarillion itself, but it is still a novel, and an evolving one with three distinct moods-the Hobbitlike book I (especially the first few chapters), the rest of the novel up to Book VI, and book VI itself which is written more like the silmarillion then the rest.

Not a novel. Tolkien disliked this term being used of LR, he said it was rather a "heroic romance".

I don't think The Silmarillion is so gloomy. The ending of the Quenta Silmarillion is very similar in tone to the ending of The Lord of the Rings. The Dark Lord is destroyed after a great War at the end of the Age, and many of the high and noble are leaving Middle-earth. Of course, the very last paragraph in the Quenta is thoroughly depressing and dark. But the History of Middle-earth reveals that Tolkien did not intend this note to be used in such a way. It was actually an ending to a lesser chapter (I forget which), but Christopher used it as the ending because he needed one.

Anyway The Lord of the Rings is one gigantic tale, and The Silmarillion is a collection of many that have been compressed. The Lord of the Rings is I suppose Of Eärendil and The War of Wrath for the Third Age. Gandalf takes the place of Manwe as the chief Angelic enemy of the Enemy, and Frodo acts as Eärendil, bringing about the downfall of the Dark Lord when all seems beyond hope. But Frodo, like Eärendil, must leave the world that he saved.

A bitter-sweet ending.

[Beruthiel]

Hmmm. The Sil dark and gloomy? Well, I like to think of it as separate stories that sortah work together, and some happen to be tragic.

I really like the tales in their "Lay" form, looking like the Finnish legendary poems.
I especailly enjoy the dialog, when it's available. Those Elves were so darn smart! (And a little bitter.) The wonders of The Sil (such as were found in the Unfinished Tales ) like those of Tuor's journey make me giddy with delight. Gimme more! MORE!
(Oh, don't even think about Turin and Beleg, I cried for the entire week after Beleg bought it.) I do like a tearjerker now and then!
:( :D

[Rhûnboy]

Maybe Tolkien used this as a parady of the politics of his time with no government willing to tackle the social ills of the system.

I know Tolkien has explicitly said, in the forward of several earlier editions of LotR that this is not the case.

I agree in particular with everything Artanis has said.

Additionally, however, I think the comment about LotR being a "novel" is valuable, even if Tolkien did not consider it so... a distinction as a "historical romance" would have been a choice of genre, and I think Tolkien probably made this point to draw distinctions between other popular, more political novels of his time, as a way of saying that LotR strove for something different.

*However*, as an extended story with a plot-structure straight out of Aristotle, I think it's kind of hard to argue that LotR escapes most definitions of "novel." And this is important in comparing it with the Silmarillion, which could be views as either (or both) an epic or history.

LotR really only shows the last moments of an extended chain of events. If we were to read the whole history of the ring, being the first and second ages, with the deception of the elves of Eregion, the rise and fall of Numenor, the rise and fall of Gondor and kingdoms in Eriador, through the War of the Ring, I suspect LotR would be at least as gloomy as the Silmarillion.

On the *other* hand, If the Silmarillion were to encompass only the last events of the first age; the sack of eithel Sirion, the voyage or Earendil, and the War of Wrath, it might be more cheerful.

I think the mode of presentation is the main thing that marks the difference in mood. Over a longer span of time, there is more unravelling and personal loss. The mood is lightened by presenting a brief period of history that encompasses a great success. IMHO.

~ Connor

[Lanelf]

I didn't find the Sil that gloomy. Of course, that may have been because I was bagging the characters so much... "Feanor, you idiot! Why did you say that?!?" etc, etc, etc. I did like the chapter about Beren and Luthien though.
Lanelf.

[aeglos]

The plight of Turin, Hurin, Tuor, Gondolin, and most of the other charactors is pretty grim. The Valor who as I have said before had been fighting Melkor with little success left the Nolder to get stomped to dust by the forces Melkor had. In the beginning Manwe is a little above the rest and perhaps equal to Melkor. But the other Valor seem to abandon the Noldor with whom some had close relations. The tone of the book is filled with doom. I still say it is a very different book then LOTR. Perhaps Tolkien

[Lefty Scaevola]

A predominating motif, and likely one of the intended themes of the S is hard choices, choices between sacrifices, choices between family members, choices between evils, cloices between conflicting duties. All these dilemas of the charactors provide much of the tragedy and sadness of the mood. Add to this that many of the most major of the choices for the elves are predestined by the Music, and they can not know which are and which are not, It is amzing that most of them are not on prozac.

[aeglos]

:)
Great point! That's the gist of what I was looking for. In the LOTR the fate of the world is NOT pre-determined . But you are right in the SIL everything is. The Noldor are all doomed to follow the curse of Mandros. Men who are loyal to the Elf Lords are bound by honor to their deaths. The smae is true in LOTR but the end result is not certain. When Melkor finds Gondolin through Hurin the last Elf King is doomed and till the Valor finnally come men and elves suffer.

In LOTR there is no help from the Valor, except Gandalf/Olorin
and he has restrictions placed on him. Perhaps Tolkien was feeling better about relegion at that point.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by aeglos
In the LOTR the fate of the world is NOT pre-determined . But you are right in the SIL everything is. The Noldor are all doomed to follow the curse of Mandros. I don't think that's what Lefty S is referring to. I think he is referring to the fact that the fate of the Elves are predetermined by the music of the Ainur and Iluvatar himself at the time of the creation of the world. Men were also created at the same time, but to them Iluvatar gave a gift, to be subject to death in Arda, but also freedom to shape their own fate, beyond the music which created them. Imagine how it would feel if you were an Elf, to know you really have no influence on the destiny of your people no matter what choices you make in your life.

But apart from that, I agree that the curse of Mandos and the oath of Feanor and his sons was the dark tragedy that influenced history in ME in the first age.

Lefty S, the idea of Elves on prozac! :D Now I can't look at Prozac Nation without laughing. :p

[Lefty Scaevola]

Even for the elves the fate of the Music of the Ainur runs begins to thin out later in ME. I believe fewer thing are predicted towards the end, and that their fate is much less predetermined by the time LOTR than it was in the first age.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

One has a very different view of The Silmarillion from this part of the woods. Rather than it being grim, could it be that we might be hung up on the darkness to the point of missing the light? Making Húrin’s mistake, that is, and viewing the Morgoth part of the story as its reality? What if one rotates the viewpoint a little bit and tries to see it from the perspective of the rest of the Ainur?

True, “The Silmarillion” proper closes on what seems to be a grim note:Here ends the SILMARILLION. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.But we have already been told in “The Ainulindalë” what Manwë and Varda and Mandos apparently are still unaware of, Ilúvatar’s overall plan:Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.So The Silmarillion is but the song of the Ainur made visible; that was not a grim song.

True, there are depths (this is not to say Tolkien intended a comparison, as he was concentrating on a fantasy world, but in the Christian world, I suppose, this view of depths could be what is meant by ‘the mystery of iniquity,’ a concept and a controversy which the Pope has recently reintroduced into the public square), but there are also heights. As if to underline this, a bit further on in “The Ainulindalë” Ilúvatar points out to Ulmo:Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! . . ..And Ulmo answeredTruly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. . . .Nor have we built into our own songs of machinery and lust anything as intricate as the snowflake or as beautiful as the sound of falling rain. Wonderful, therefore, rather than grim are those things that go on in “this little realm in the Deeps of Time.”