Eol

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Okay, I don't think this has been done before, I searched for it, but forgive me if I'm wrong. . .

A while ago I was discussing Eol's role in the Silmarillion with a friend. I guess this question is a bit like the 'Feanor a villain?' thread...I said that I thought Eol was basically horrible and villainous. My friend disagreed. So. Discuss.

[olsonm]

I think Eol was an angry bitter elf by the time he entered the story. It is unclear to me if this was how he always was or if he became this way.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I think he was bitter mainly because of the arrival of the Noldor, and Morgoth. But I'm not entirely sure. Anyway, perhaps that could be one reason for his actions, but I don't think said actions were justified by any possible events or whatever else might make him bitter and angry.

[BeardofPants]

I'll have to re-read that section again, but the sense I got was that he was angry, and resentful, rather than villainous.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Actually, I need to read it again too...*heh* but. . .well, I say villainous, because I found his actions to be quite unforgivable in my book. He was angry resentful, true, but aren't most villainous types?

[afro-elf]

They were BOTH ( Feanor and Eol) @#$%^&*.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by afro-elf
They were BOTH ( Feanor and Eol) @#$%^&*.

Yes, A-E, we know how you feel. :rolleyes:

I think, however, that Feanor is slightly more deserving of the title, @#$%^&*, than Eol. :rolleyes:

[Mirahzi]

For a summary of the events, click here (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/e/eol.html).

[Artanis]

Originally posted by BeardofPants

I think, however, that Feanor is slightly more deserving of the title, @#$%^&*, than Eol. :rolleyes:
I tend to excuse Feanor, he was rather a mighty Elf who was persuaded by Melkor. Eol did not have that excuse.

The Sil says about Eol:
He shunned the Noldor, holding them to blame for the return of Morgoth
I think Eol became ever the more angry and bitter because his own son Maeglin turned towards the Noldor and fled to Gondolin. When Eol tried to kill Maeglin in Gondolin, it was all due to his bitter pride.

It wasn't Eol's smartest move to take a Noldo as wife though, especially not someone like Aredhel, who wasn't likely to be content with his command; to never see the light of the day and not be together with the sons of Feanor, or any of her kin. Aredhel must have felt like living in a cage. No wonder she left. :rolleyes:

[Nilvasaien]

Artanis posted:

"I think Eol became ever the more angry and bitter because his own son Maeglin turned towards the Noldor and fled to Gondolin. When Eol tried to kill Maeglin in Gondolin, it was all due to his bitter pride."

I have to agree. Dark Elf was an apt description of Eol, not just his looks, but his character. The need to lay blame for the return of Morgoth is telling.

However, I have to give him a little credit for his skill, and his willingness to befriend the Dwarves.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Thanks, Mirahzi...I didn't know you were here :rolleyes:

I would agree that Eol gets credit for his skill, but despite that I think his character is just a bitter, snarky person already--his resentment of the Noldor and blaming them for Morgoth's presence, but at the same time he goes and marries one of them. And not, as Artanis said, the best choice, either, considering what Aredhel was like. Not the type to be caged. His son's betrayal of him, I think, was no excuse for trying to murder him. Especially since Aredhel died instead.

[Christiana]

he was a...er...brat. :D ;)

[Mirahzi]

Originally posted by Christiana
he was a...er...brat. :D ;)
Elaborate, please. :)

[Christiana]

hmm...he did not let his wife and son go abroad,he was rude to Turgon,and 100 other bad things.:rolleyes:

[Mirahzi]

hmm...he did not let his wife and son go abroad,he was rude to Turgon,and 100 other bad things.
Oh. I guess 'brat' just isn't the word I'd choose to describe him with.

Actually, he did let Aredhel wander about, so long as she didn't try and find the Noldor, his enemies.

It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years. For though at Eol's command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the stars or by the light of the sickle moon; or she might fare alone as she would, save that Eol forbade her to seek the sons of Feanor, or any others of the Noldor.

[Christiana]

hehe."brat"is a subsitute for another word.:rolleyes:

[Blackheart]

Eol was a dark elf. Moriquendi. I don't however think he was one of the Avari. He did very well as a loner until he got married.

And that should be a lesson to all of you.

While he might have been prideful, arrogant and wilful, the only markedly evil act he did was to try to murder his son, Maeglin, and instead killed his wife. Up until that point, he was willing to "divorce" as long as he got "custody". ;)


If you people remeber your "history" you might realize that it would have been better if he had. Gondolin would not have been betrayed from within. Perhaps Eol knew his son better than anyone else. Turgon himself also must take some of the blame for what happened. When he put Eol to death, he basically sealed the doom of Gondolin.

I don't put Eol even in the same class as Feanor. Feanor acted with forethought, and knowledge of his actions. Eol acted from passion.

He's a dark, brooding figure yes, but not quite up to villain status.
Trust me, I know villains when I see them. Maeglin now, he was a villain.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Ok, let's try and figue this out.

Eol was a Telerin Elf of the following of Elwe. He resided in Doriath, but when Melian wove the Girdle of Enchantmant, Eol felt restricted and no longer wish to live there. Thingol granted him permission to live in Nan Elmoth. Here he befriended and learned great craft as a smith from the Dwarves. Aredhel who had a great love of travel, not uncomman in many of the Noldor, met and married him. Aredhel was not prisoner to Eol and was free to go throughout Nan Elmoth, but Eol kept her from her kindred that he held resposible for the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, especially Feanor and his sons that she had great friendship with. Meaglin loved his father, but felt that he always deprived his mother of her kin. When Aredhel became restless and left with Meaglin for Gondolin, Eol was exasperated with her and followed. When he got there, he did not accept Turgon's offer of hospitality and friendship, and claimed he had come for his wife and son and would leave, but if Aredhel chose not to, then he would leave with his son. Of course, Aredhel and Meaglin had no choice in this matter. Turgon said they must stay, eventhough he had allowed Aredhel to leave before. He gave Eol the choice to "abide here, or die here, and so for your son" Eol at that point was stirred to wrath. I will quote from memory cause the book isn't handy. It was something like this:Turgon extended his hand in friendship saying "Welcome kinsman, for so I hold you. Here you may dwell at your pleasure. One thing only do I ask and that is that you remain here, for my kingdom is hidden, and it is my law that whosoever make their way here must stay." But Eol withdrew his hand and said: "I care nothing for your secrets, nor have I come to spy on you. I have come for one thing only, namely my wife and son. But, if you have some hold over your sister, then let her remain. Let the bird fly back to the cage where she will sicken as she did before. But my son you shall not withhold from me. And this is the land of the Teleri, to which you bring war and unquiet. Come Meaglin son of Eol, your father commands you. Leave the house of his enemies and slayers of his kin." Then Turgon sat in his high seat holding his staff of doom, and he said: "I will not debate with you Dark Elf. By the swords of the Noldor alone are your sunless woods protected and your freedom to roam there freely you owe to my people. And here, I am King and my doom is law. Two choices are given you, either to abide here or to die here, and so for your son."Pretty good for no book huh? Anyway, it was around then that he threw the spear, or dart or whatever that killed Aredhel.

Was Eol a villion? No. Was Eol bitter? Yes. Was Eol evil? Yes. Was Eol always that way? I don't think so. Plus considering the feelings that the dwarves had for the Noldor, that was probably an influence aswell.

Also, it never seemed as though Meaglin was a real bad guy until he realized he could not have Idril, and her hand going to a human was more than he could bear. WHEW!

[Ñólendil]

I'm amazed that you proclaim Eöl evil so easily, but deny that Fëanáro was corrupt. Of course, I'm also amazed at my knack for finding diacritics too.

Was Eol a villion? No. Was Eol bitter? Yes. Was Eol evil? Yes. Was Eol always that way? I don't think so. Plus considering the feelings that the dwarves had for the Noldor, that was probably an influence aswell.

Of course he was a villain! He was a criminal certainly, becoming in effect and intention a murderer. I agree that he was not always evil. Nothing truly begins in such a way.

Although I think the final decision of Tolkien was that Eöl was a Sinda of the kin of Elu, it's interesting to note that in the essay Quendi and Eldar (I think that's where it is), Eöl was an Avar, but what's more of the Tatyar, those Elves from whom came the Ñoldor. I guess it's not too remarkable, as the Tatyarin Avari rather resented the Exiled Ñoldor, "whom they accused of arrogance".

I wonder how Eöl and Thingol were related. It never says, like CÃ*rdan.

[Blackheart]

Nah Eol wasn't evil. Just dark.

Oh youse is talkin to da goldielocks.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I don't believe that Eol and Feanor are comparable.

[Ñólendil]

Why are they not comparable? I think they are very comparable. I think Faenor and Sam Gamgee are comparable. They're all essentially human, you know.

[Blackheart]

Eol was not a villain. He meets none of the criteria. He acts from passion, and I fond it hard to call an unwillingness to trust the sons of Feanor or their kin a fatal flaw.

Sounds more like common sense to me :rolleyes:

[Ñólendil]

Blackheart, to quote yourself: "I could kill you out of love, but it doesn't matter one whit, does it?"

Eöl deliberatly tried to murder his son, doesn't that make him a criminal and thus, a villain?

[Blackheart]

No. Turgon ordered either death, or imprisonment, both for him and his son.

He chose death.

He also chose for his son. Care to guess the elvish age of majority?

[Ñólendil]

Oh I see. I guess I didn't really pick up on that part. Makes it all the more interesting. 'Course, it was not "imprisonment" to Maeglin. Indeed after a fashion Maeglin and Aredhel were imprisoned in Nan Elmoth.

Age of majority?

[Blackheart]

age of majority for humans (in modern society) 18

slowly being pushed up to 21.

In other words, the age when an individual is considered an adult, and no longer the responsibility (or in the dark ages chattel) of their parents.

Which brings it back to child custody. Obviously a cultural conflict, perhaps the telri were patriarchal.. oh wait so were the Noldor, so according to mideavial custom, the father would likely have had the final say about where the child would reside...

[Ñólendil]

Ah. Being more aquainted with Tolkien than with my own story, I know it only as "coming of age" :) Sad, isn't it?

I think Tolkien actually answered it for us, though. I could be wrong, but I think he mentions it in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar.

[Sister Golden Hair]

For an Elf 50-100.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

So how old was Maeglin when they went to Gondolin? I know my perspective on this issue really twists my views on it, because the way I see it, Eol was being overly possesive of Aredhel and Maeglin. Aredhel, and Maeglin, as I think he was old enough then, should have had their free will, etc. But if I were to look at it taking into consideration the culture and time, as I must do, then Eol's over-possesiveness of his wife and son (perhaps comparable to Feanor and his Silmarils?) seems a little less...horrible...to me. But not enough that I would be too forgiving of him, and I would say he is a villain, of sorts.
And, again from my perspective, seen through the clouded glass of our 'modern' society, I think that no one should be able to choose life or death for someone other than themselves. Of course, in Gondolin, then, the laws were different. Er.

[BeardofPants]

I'm sorry, but I just cannot place Eol even in the same boat as Feanor. Yes, I think he was misguided, but I think it's a bit of a leap to try and brand him as evil. He simply doesn't meet the criteria.

[afro-elf]

Think if he had done his deeds to you. How would you feel?

[Blackheart]

What? married me, gave me a son, then got mad becasue I ran off with the kids to my brother in-law's house where my Brother in-law wants to kill me before he'll let me leave?

Hell I can't say I blame the guy, but I'd have thrown the damned spear at Turgon, and chuckled when she dove in front of it.

[BeardofPants]

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, his were crimes of passion. Ill thought out, and definately not premeditated. The kinslaying on the other hand...

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Think if he had done his deeds to you. How would you feel?

Very, very angry! Here's for another of his crimes. . .

This is when Aredhel has strayed into his woods and is lost...

And it came to pass that he saw Aredhel Ar-Feiniel as she strayed among the tall trees near the borders of Nan Elmoth, a gleam of white in the dim land. Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. There were his smithy, and his dim halls, and such servants as he had, silent and secret as their master. And when Aredhel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself; and he welcomed her, and led her into to his house. And there she remained; for Eol took her to wife, and it was long ere any of her kin heard of her again.


Okay. So Eol tricked her and ensared her with his enchantments, because he saw her and desired her. Had he not been so compulsive and...greedy...perhaps Gondolin would not have fallen. Aredhel would have found her way out, or not, but had he not ensnared her so, none of that would have happened. He didn't have to trick her that way. It was cruel. I would be very, very upset had he done that to me...and he then gave her the illusion of freedom, so she would be happy for a while. He really kept her captive, even if it did not seem like that at first.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Blackheart
What? married me, gave me a son, then got mad becasue I ran off with the kids to my brother in-law's house where my Brother in-law wants to kill me before he'll let me leave?

Hell I can't say I blame the guy, but I'd have thrown the damned spear at Turgon, and chuckled when she dove in front of it.

Who says she wanted to get married and have a son? And those were the laws of Gondolin Turgon set to keep his city safe. Not that it helped any. . .

And BoP, some of Eol's actions were premeditated. And those that weren't, well, Feanor didn't exactly sit down and make plans to slay the Teleri and burn the ships. They were compulsive decisions.

[BeardofPants]

Ensnaring, and entrapping DOES NOT make someone evil.

EG, I don't get you. You think that Feanor isn't evil, but Eol is?! Sorry, but where's the reasoning in that?

[Blackheart]

So he was the first guy to take advantage of a lost woman? The first guy to even lie to a woman, or cnchant or charm a woman?

Hell at least he married her, instead of kicking her out and giving her cab fare.

[afro-elf]

vil·lain Pronunciation Key (vln)
n.
A wicked or evil person; a scoundrel.
A dramatic or fictional character who is typically at odds with the hero.
(also vln, v-ln) Variant of villein.
Something said to be the cause of particular trouble or an evil: poverty, the villain in the increase of crime.
Obsolete. A peasant regarded as vile and brutish.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf


Who says she wanted to get married and have a son? And those were the laws of Gondolin Turgon set to keep his city safe. Not that it helped any. . .


Well no where does it mention the word rape. Obviously there was a premeditated concencus on the sex, or at least not much objection. If a child issues from such a union, it's generally both parents that take responsibility.

As for Turgon, he obviously made an exception for his relatives at least once. The idea that it was only "the law" involved in his decision rings sort of hollow to me.

[afro-elf]

Ensnaring, and entrapping DOES NOT make someone evil.

What it make them? ( besides ensarers and entrappers?):)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by afro-elf


What it make them? ( besides ensarers and entrappers?):)

I'd say that it made them a normal bloody male! :p

[afro-elf]

BoP

Nice to see you fired up again

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Ensnaring, and entrapping DOES NOT make someone evil.

EG, I don't get you. You think that Feanor isn't evil, but Eol is?! Sorry, but where's the reasoning in that?

Yes, as far as I am concerned it does. How would you feel if someone ensared and entrapped you when you were lost? He took advantage of her, in some way. Not a nice thing to do. Not to mention it eventually caused the fall of Gondolin...not that he was planning that, though he did hate the Noldor. Bitter guy.

Okay, perhaps I have a skewed perspective on the matter. I know it's odd, but I think it's what characters I identify with. I definitely identify with Feanor. Older sibling, who wants all the parent's attention. Very prideful and selfish. Etc. I am a bit like him in that regard. I identify less with the people his actions affected...okay, not quite, because his actions affected everyone. But I can see making those compulsive, selfish, vain decisions that end up really harming other people (fear me). Anyway, about Eol, well, I also identify more with Aredhel, or at least Aredhel before she meets Eol. Feeling caged, etc. I know I would be really, really mad if someone did that to me--entrapping me and all. I know it doesn't quite make sense, that I say Eol is a villain and Feanor is not.

[Blackheart]

Yah- ain't you never bought a girl a shot of tequila?

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


I'd say that it made them a normal bloody male! :p

Please...I'm going to end up hating males again if this continues :rolleyes:

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


I'd say that it made them a normal bloody male! :p

Actually, aren't those female typical FEMALE M.O.'s:D

[afro-elf]

Please...I'm going to end up hating males again if this continues

Again :rolleyes: :p You mean you stopped?

[BeardofPants]

Yes, as far as I am concerned it does. How would you feel if someone ensared and entrapped you when you were lost? He took advantage of her, in some way. Not a nice thing to do. Not to mention it eventually caused the fall of Gondolin...not that he was planning that, though he did hate the Noldor. Bitter guy.

There is a *very* good reason why he is antsy about the Noldor, let us not forget.

I'd damned well rather be entrapped and ensnared - who knows, I might enjoy it - than brutally murdered, or held to a doom-fulled oath. The lesser of the evils, wouldn't you say?

[afro-elf]

The lesser of the evils, wouldn't you say?

Still evil though.

Hey BoP. I like it when you are hot and bothered.;)

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by afro-elf


Again :rolleyes: :p You mean you stopped?

Well, perhaps my hatred decreased by a significant amount for a while...:rolleyes:

BoP--all the Sindar, it seemed, had 'issues' with the Noldor, and yes for good reason. But I think Eol perhaps rather overdid it?

Okay, I wouldn't want to be entrapped and ensnared. Personally, I would rather be murdered. I don't know about being held to a doomed oath, though.

[afro-elf]

Most of the Sindar not all. Also, it was more with the Fearnorians as opposed to the Noldor.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Most of the Sindar not all. Also, it was more with the Fearnorians as opposed to the Noldor.

Right, most of the Sindar. But Eol hated all the Noldor, not just Feanor and his people.

[afro-elf]

But Eol hated all the Noldor, not just Feanor and his people

Yup.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

...which is part of my point. He had a reason for bitterness where the Feanorians were concerned, but not all the Noldor. And why, if he was so resentful of them, did he marry one?

[afro-elf]

And why, if he was so resentful of them, did he marry one?

When booty err.. love calls....

[BeardofPants]

So he was a racist git, does that make him evil? Nope.

Hey BoP. I like it when you are hot and bothered. ;)

Who said anything about hot and bothered? :rolleyes: :p Now just step into this little chamber here...

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
So he was a racist git, does that make him evil? Nope.


He was more than that. He was, I think, too bitter. He had reason for some of his bitterness and resentment, true, but there's a point where it gets to be enough that you have to question...er...anyway...

Another point. He kept Aredhel and Maeglin essentially without any freedom, but when his freedom was taken away, in Gondolin when Turgon gave him the choice of remaining there or death, he became very angry. Obviously, anyone would be, but he had no thought of what he had done to others, only of himself and his 'property' (wife and son). Wait, did I have a point? Sort of, but I think it got lost somewhere; his actions here, though not admirable, are logical...sort of.

[Sister Golden Hair]

EG, when Melian enchanted Thingol and caused many of the Teleri to miss the summons of the Valar, did that make her evil? Furthermore, I don't think that it was Eol's coming to Gondolin that caused the fall of that city. It was more due to Turgon's pride and refusing to hear the words of Tuor from Ulmo.

What I want to know is why Turgon reluctantly allowed Aredhel to leave Gondolin in the first place. This defies his own law and making an allowance just because she was his sister is no excuse and was just as risky had he allowed Eol to depart. Turgon had no way of knowing if Aredhel had been spotted leaving Gondolin the first time, or upon her return with Meaglin, or upon Eol's arrival. So what was one more time? However, it still would not have worked that way because Eol was determined to take Meaglin with him, and Meaglin was unwilling, so he would have still tried to kill him inspite of anything Turgon did.

[afro-elf]

when Melian enchanted Thingol and caused many of the Teleri to miss the summons of the Valar, did that make her evil?

Interesting thought that I had never entertained.

Evil nah! Just a selfish !@#$%^&*. :)

Like I saidEnsnaring, and entrapping Actually, aren't those female typical FEMALE M.O.'s :p

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Evil nah! Just a selfish !@#$%^&*. :)



Yeah, I'd agree with that.


Hey A-E, I've never tried that. :p

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


Yeah, I'd agree with that.


What, for Melian?

[BeardofPants]

Of course, Melian. :rolleyes:

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Of course, Melian. :rolleyes:

Sorry, I wasn't sure...

I would agree to that assesment too, A-E. Of Melian..er.

[Christiana]

sheesh,u guys are bigger spammers than i am!:eek: ;) :D

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Christiana
sheesh,u guys are bigger spammers than i am!:eek: ;) :D

No we aren't. We were actually saying something. :rolleyes:

[Christiana]

hahaha.ur sig.says otherwise!:D :D :D

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Christiana
hahaha.ur sig.says otherwise!:D :D :D

Does it? What does it say that would say otherwise? By the way, we are way off topic. Please stay on topic!

[BeardofPants]

As has been said Christiana, we were on topic, which is more than I can say for you. :rolleyes:

So, now that we've agreed that Melian was selfish, can we not apply that to Eol as well? I mean, his actions were that of a selfish git, rather than a wholly evil one.

[Mirahzi]

Actually I disagree..
Elwe, lord of the Teleri, went often through the great woods to seek out Finwe his friend in the dwellings of the Noldor; and it chanced on a time that he came alone to the starlit wood of Nan Elmoth, and there suddenely he heard the song of nightingales. Then an enchantment fell on him, and he stood still; and afar off beyond the voices of the lomelindi he heard the voice of Melian, and it filled all his heart with wonder and desire. He forgot then utterly all his people and all the purposes of his mind, and following the birds under the shadow of the trees he passed deep into Nan Elmoth and was lost. But he came at last to a glade open to the stars, and there Melian stood; and out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face.
She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwe came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the tress of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.
Melian did enchant Elwe, but that was because of mere chance. She did not do so with the intent of luring him to her.

[Khamûl]

Eruviel Greenleaf and BeardofPants telling someone to stay on topic? :eek: I'm at a loss for words.:D

I've just finished this part of the book and from my impressions, Eol was pretty bad. Not fully bad, but maybe just lonely. Now maybe if I went back and read it again, I might see differently. I can understand where you're coming from with Melian, Mirahzi.

[BeardofPants]

Yeah, lookit for the flying pigs Khamul. ;)

Good to see another one in the He's not wholly evil camp. :D

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Okay, so he's not wholly evil. But what virtues does he have? How is he at all good?

Oh, right (answering my own questions...) he did befriend the dwarves and was a skilled swordsmith. But other than that?

[Mirahzi]

Well, he certainly loved Aredhel. That is undeniably a good thing.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Mirahzi
Well, he certainly loved Aredhel. That is undeniably a good thing.
I'm not so sure. My impression is he wanted to possess her. Not quite the same as love. :rolleyes:

[Mirahzi]

I disagree. If she were truly his captive, then I doubt he would've let her roam as much as she did. Also, she bore him a son.

[Artanis]

She may have loved him, at least in the beginning, and so bore him a son. This does not imply that he loved her. The Sil uses the word 'desire', not 'love', to describe Eol's feelings. And even if she was allowed to wander, he commanded her to avoid the sunlight, and to stay away from her kin.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I agree with Artanis--I don't think Eol actually loved her. Wanted her, yes. Loved her? No. Had he truly loved her I don't think he would have kept her captive the way he did, forbidding her to see her kin and avoiding sunlight (by the way...was there a reason for this? I don't really understand this command...). I don't think love was ever mentioned, especially on Eol's part. And I would even doubt that Aredhel actually loved him.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Eol forbade Aredhel from seeing her kin, because he utterly hated the Noldor for the Kinslaying. I can't be sure about all this love stuff, but he (Eol) I think certianly had a lust for her, and I believe she cared for him, because when the guards of Gondolin captured him and told Turgon, Aredhel told them that he was indeed her husband and not to slay him. Also, when Eol defied Turgon's law and threw the spear striking Aredhel, he was to come before the kings judgement the next day, and it says that Aredhel and Idril moved Turgon to pity, and to be merciful to Eol. It wasn't until Aredhel sickened in the night and died that Turgon decided to have him killed.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Right...I guess Aredhel did love him, or at least care about him. A little. I personally don't see why, but oh well that's not me...er...Anyway. Point being, Aredhel cared about Eol to some extent, but still Eol didn't seem to love Aredhel and merely wanted her. I don't have the book with me now, but as I recall he didn't seem to be all that remorseful when she was hit by the javelin. Of course, please tell me if I'm wrong!

[Mirahzi]

I certainly believe Eol did love her. First of all, he married her. In those times, marriage without mutual love was unheard of. And, as I said before, she gave him a son, whom he loved and taught. The act of sex implied mutual consent, since rape was also unheard of. If both did not love each other, why else would they both agree?
..but as I recall he didn't seem to be all that remorseful when she was hit by the javelin.
I don't think the book describes any of his emotions from that point on, except for his wrath against Maeglin.

[BeardofPants]

“Eöl found...the sister of King Turgon astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.� (Quendi and Eldar essay, footnote 9, War of the Jewels, HME)

Looks like Tolkien originally wanted to paint Eol as an evil bastard, but then watered his character down.

[Khamûl]

Now that I reread the story, Eol is worse than I thought. I forgot about the part that when he first saw Aredhel, he enchanted the woods so that she couldn't find her way out. But, she wasn't unhappy with him.It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years. I think that they would have been happy together had Maeglin not been born and had he not made her want to go back to Gondolin.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Khamûl
I think that they would have been happy together had Maeglin not been born and had he not made her want to go back to Gondolin.

But only because he practically brainwashed her...she would have eventually wanted to go back to Gondolin, I am sure. Maeglin merely helped this along. I think.

Thanks for finding that quote, BoP. I was going to say, I think at this point the discussion would turn to the intentions of the author, rather the character of Eol. What did Tolkien intend? Evidently, he originally planned to have Eol as an evil bastard, but changed it somewhere...or did he change it all that much? Why am I attempting to confuse myself?

[Mirahzi]

Yet it is said that Maeglin loved his mother better, and if Eol were abroad he would sit long beside her and listen to all that she could tell him of her kin and their deeds in Eldamar, and of the might and valour of the princes of the House of Fingolfin. All these things he laid to heart, but most of all that which he heard of Turgon, and that he had no heir; for Elenwe his wife perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxe, and his daughter Idril Celebrindal was his only child.
In the telling of these tales there was awakened in Aredhel a desire to see her own kin again, and she marvelled that she had grown weary of the light of Gondolin, and the fountains in the sun, and the green sward of Tumladen under the windy skies of spring; moreover she was often alone in the shadows when both her son and her husband were away.
Aredhel's homesickness was awakened by the telling of stories of the Noldor to her son, as opposed to being strengthened or reinforced. This implies that, had she not been asked by Maeglin to remember, her memories of Gondolin would eventually fade and she would be content in Nan Elmoth.

I don't think the character of Eol from Histories is really relevant here, because, frankly, the source is quite unreliable. Whatever Tolkien intended when he created the aforementioned character is also irrelevant, since he could've and most likely did change his mind before or during the development of Eol from the Silmarillion. Unless there's proof that both characters are one and the same, they should be recognized as individuals.

[BeardofPants]

Well I posted it, because I thought it was interesting to see how his character evolved from that of a blackguard, to one of lesser evil. My point was that the Silmarillion version hardly stands up to the label of evil in comparison to the one Tolkien originally worked with.

[Mirahzi]

I know, and I agree that it is a valuable insight. My last paragraph was more in response to EG's post, not to question the reasoning behind yours.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Keep in mind that Tolkien did not publish The Silmarillion himself. And I think the character of Eol in histories is significant here; the Eol we see in The Silmarillion is based on the one in the Histories, so I would not give Sil. Eol individual status, just slightly different. And mind you, it did not change that much. He still ensnared her and would have married her, whether she was willing or no.

And I doubt Aredhel would have forgotten her home and been satisfied forever, away from the light of the sun, and her kin.

[Mirahzi]

I realize that Eol (S) is based on the Eol from the Histories, but that still doesn't mean they're the same person. The Histories was a rough sketch of characters and stories who were later refined or changed to become the ones we are familiar with from LotR and the Silmarillion. For example, Melko and Melkor are very different individuals.
He still ensnared her and would have married her, whether she was willing or no.
I don't think its reasonable to assume that, since all we know is that she was willing. To say that he would've forcefully married her if she wasn't is like trying to predict the future. With what we know, that's impossible.

Again, I disagree. Aredhel and Eol were very alike in the sense that they both craved freedom. Also, before the birth of Maeglin, neither had any desire to go back to Gondolin or Doriath, respectively (according to the texts). Without the desire to return home, Perhaps Aredhel would eventually become like Eol.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

It is not until after Eol's actions are described that it says anything about Aredhel not being wholly unwilling (and putting it like that, it doesn't sound like she was particuarly happy either, just not to upset...). What one can assume from the way it is written is that she had little in the way of choice, but she ended up not minding. See, it says (and I don't have the book with me again. arr.) first that Eol ensnared her and brought her to his home, and married her. It says nothing on how she felt about this until the next paragraph. Read it again; I think it implies he would have done so anyway.

Also, I don't think it would be in Aredhel's nature to become completely satisfied with her dark life with Eol, away from the sun and her kin. I think the seeds of discontent were there (and I'll read it again as soon as I find my book so I can be sure) and Maeglin only helped by listening to stories. But I need the book...argh.

[BeardofPants]

Well, all that says, is that Eol was NOT a nice person, and that he had an agenda. It doesn't say that he was an evil [Edited]. Just a twit.

[Ñólendil]

Dude, you can't say that on Entmoot. It's not in the filter, but I know you can't say that.

[BeardofPants]

What? People have said that before...

Fine, I'll edit. :rolleyes:

[Khadrane]

I seriously do not like Eol, or Maeglin for that matter.

[Khamûl]

Care to elaborate?

[Khamûl]

It seems that Eol is worse than I thought. I thought that maybe he was just lonely. I guess that theory should have gone out the window when he killed his wife, huh? Anyway, I stumbled upon a piece of information that I found that says for a fact that he had a dark heart. But then again, I guess we knew that anyway. Just for the heck of it, here is goes. When Beleg is choosing a blade from the armory of Thingol, he chooses Anglachel, which was forged from a fallen star by Eol. Melian says, "There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it." Just my quick two cents.

[Mirahzi]

A dark heart doesn't necessarily mean evil. For example, Turin certainly had a dark heart, but he still wasn't evil.

Also, just to nitpick, the death of his wife was not intentional. He was aiming at his son.

[Khamûl]

So he didn't intentionally kill his wife. He was aiming for his son, which is just as bad to me. I bet he didn't really care that he had killed his wife because she had led Maeglin out of Nan Elmoth and gone against his wishes to never leave their home. Anyway, the word 'malice' there signals to me that he was bad.

[Sister Golden Hair]

He was bad. Does that indicate evil? I think disturbed is a better word.

[BeardofPants]

We already knew that he wasn't exactly angelic. Just because he had a dark heart, does not, an evil dude, make.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

He had a dark heart, okay, that's a fact we know. So what exactly defines a 'dark heart?' And could we throw Turin into the discussion, too? :D

No...how about not. Er. Anyway, I think Melian was sensing something--if not evil, something pretty close, eh?

Oh, and isn't 'bad' pretty similiar to 'evil?'

And I agree with Khamul; I don't think he cared if he hit Aredhel or not...

[Mirahzi]

If he didn't care about Aradhel, why'd he go through so much trouble to find her?

Melian described the blade as malicious, not the smith, Eol. As is evident, the sword has a will, or some semblance of a will of its own. Although it may have been tainted by the influence of Eol's "dark heart" I don't think it entirely reflects him.

"Bad" can mean many things.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

He tracked Aredhel and Maeglin because he didn't like the idea of what, to his mind, was rightfully his, running off like that, and he was merely going to reclaim his 'possessions.' His son and his wife. I don't think, at that point, he really cared about her as a person. Same for his son; at that point it seemed he had no love for them but only wanted what was 'his.'

And the blade contained the malice of its maker, not a darkness of its own. I think the blade was what it was because of what the smith put into it.

[Mirahzi]

When Eol is captured in Gondolin, Aradhel speaks on his behalf, requesting mercy. If she were merely his 'posession,' why would she ask to spare his life, rather than be rid of him? Love and sympathy are not borne of slavery.

I also believe he loved his son, even if he didn't show it. Although his words were harsh and his actions ill-thought, he was trying to do what he though was best for his son; save him from imprisonment at the hands of his peoples' enemies.

Eol perhaps put into the sword his freedom-loving spirit. Both would not stand to be captured or contained by walls or warrior.

Malice: A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite

I don't believe this holds true for Eol, since he merely wanted to live peacefully in his woods, free to wander or do what he liked.

[Willow Oran]

I think a way of describing Eol would be as a selfish hypocrite. It's said that one of his reasons for hating the noldor was because of the kinslaying. Yet when he was faced with the prospect of losing his wife and son whom he considered his possesions he tried to slay his son which is kinslaying, the very thing he hated the noldor for doing. Personally I never really liked Eol, Maeglin or Aredhel. She was foolish for insisting on leaving gondolin and then getting herself lost and ensnared by Eol. Eol was basically a selfish anti-social hypocrite who had been alone in the dark so long that he had forgotten the basic morals and behavior that is acceptable in any society. And Maeglin inherited the bad traits of both his parents, his willful foolishness led him to wander beyond the safe areas and get captured by morgoth and his selfish desire to posess Idril led him to betray Gondolin. However, none of them were actually evil. They were all just selfish and stupid.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I don't think Aredhel was particuarly selfish and stupid except for that one point when she insisted on leaving Gondolin. That was not the best idea, but I can understand entirely her desire to leave, being trapped there. And in the end, she gave her life to protect her son, which I think is a great sacrifice and would balance out her selfish and foolish acts from before. Maeglin and Eol did nothing that good.

And I don't think Eol ever loved his son, nor do I think he loved Aredhel all that much. Definitely not by the end of his life, though she took pity on him. Don't see why.

And I agree completely with Willow; Eol was a selfish hypocrite. Entirely.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
And I don't think Eol ever loved his son, nor do I think he loved Aredhel all that much. Definitely not by the end of his life, though she took pity on him. Don't see why.

I think he did have *some* love for them, inasmuch as you can have feelings for your possessions. I just don't think it was the kind of love that most people aspire to. Willow has a point... that being alone thing probably had a lot to do with it.

I still don't think he was evil or villainous though. Just angry, bitter and VERY selfish, and controlling.

[Ñólendil]

He was bad. Does that indicate evil? I think disturbed is a better word.

SGH, you seem to always reserve the word "evil" for some Maiar, or for Morgoth. Surely there are Children of Ilúvatar who become corrupt?

[Christiana]

Maeglin was evil.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Christiana
Maeglin was evil.

I have to read that part again, but I don't think he was evil. I think he suffered the bad influence of his father, and definitely had his (many) faults, and was affected by his 'love' (I'd say lust) of Idril...I don't think he was evil though.

And, okay, nor do I think Eol was entirely evil. Bitter, selfish, possessive, controlling, slightly villainous. Okay, why do I keep contradicting myself?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
Okay, why do I keep contradicting myself?

Because Tolkien's characters are never that simple? ;)

I'm with you on Maeglin.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


Because Tolkien's characters are never that simple? ;)



That must be it :rolleyes: :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil


SGH, you seem to always reserve the word "evil" for some Maiar, or for Morgoth. Surely there are Children of Ilúvatar who become corrupt? Corrupt isn't evil, and you are right, I do reserve that word to apply to only what I think as evil. Evil in the case of Tolkien's charachters is to me, limited to beings that have absolutley no capacity for good. this would be the likes of Morgoth, Sauron, Balrogs. These are all beings that are consumed by evil. An evil being has no room in its soul for mercy, love, compassion, or goodness. This is not the case with such characters as Eol, Turin, Meaglin, or even Feanor. These people are the way they are out of some other injustice that they believe was done to them. This does not mean that they are incapable of feeling goodness, or showing kindness and love. In the case of someone like Morgoth, this would never be, because he is the very root of evil, and posseses no good whatsoever. that is why I believe the use of the word evil is not applicable to most characters in Tolkien, but a select few.

[Willow Oran]

I don't think Aredhel was particuarly selfish and stupid

Perhaps stupid was the wrong word to use. But Aredhel was foolhardy and she was selfish to think only of her own wish to travel and not of the safety of the other people living in Gondolin. I cannot comprehend wanting to go and travel knowing that there are millions of things that could go wrong and that all it would take is one of them happening to cause a chain reaction that would lead to trouble for your entire city. Doing so seems extremely foolish to me and doing so and then getting seperated from the rest of the people with me and wandering around lost in unfamilier territory is pure idiocy. Aredhel, Eol, and Maeglin may not have been evil but they still did a lot of things that were either really unpleasent or really dumb. These three characters bug me more than any of tolkien's other characters, they may not be evil but they are hateable.

[Mirahzi]

I don't think it's that hard to comprehend Aradhel's desire for adventure. That's why the Noldor left Aman for Middle Earth. Feanor and his sons wanted to retrieve the Silmarils, but the rest only went along for the promise of new lands to explore and realms to build.
Getting lost wasn't her fault. Perhaps going through Nan Elmoth wasn't the best decision, but you can't expect her to predict being ensnared by Eol. If you want to blame someone, why not blame Thingol for fencing off his realm?

Also, people accuse Eol of regarding his wife and son as his posessions. Are there any indications of him being a materialistic person? Does he show any signs of greed? He gave up one of his most prized creations (Anglachel) in exchange for his freedom.

[Ñólendil]

Corrupt isn't evil, and you are right, I do reserve that word to apply to only what I think as evil. Evil in the case of Tolkien's charachters is to me, limited to beings that have absolutley no capacity for good. this would be the likes of Morgoth, Sauron, Balrogs. These are all beings that are consumed by evil. An evil being has no room in its soul for mercy, love, compassion, or goodness. This is not the case with such characters as Eol, Turin, Meaglin, or even Feanor. These people are the way they are out of some other injustice that they believe was done to them. This does not mean that they are incapable of feeling goodness, or showing kindness and love. In the case of someone like Morgoth, this would never be, because he is the very root of evil, and posseses no good whatsoever. that is why I believe the use of the word evil is not applicable to most characters in Tolkien, but a select few.

Then all your debates with Blackheart and I about evil were rather pointless. We agree on the basics, but disagree on the specific words used. I don't believe "evil" is fictional and I suppose that influences my opinion. I don't reserve the word for Demonic characters, but also use them for human beings (rational incarnate creatures, Elves, Men, etc.,) who reached a certain level of corruption.

The corrupt are the tainted, the degraded, the rotted, the spoilt, the immoral, the debased and the ruined. The evil are the sinful and the wicked. Maybed not all of the corrupt are evil, but certainly the evil are corrupt. No one was evil in the beginning, not even Sauron (or Melkor or the Valaraucar). Hitler was evil. Napolean (in whose army one of my ancestors served, incidentally) was evil. And so, I beileve, was Curufinwë Fëanáro. He didn't start out that way and there were a lot of factors, but he became corrupt, mad and eventually evil. Not wholly evil, but I don't think anyone can be wholly evil (except perhaps Melkor).

[Sister Golden Hair]

I don't think my arguments with you and Blackheart were pointless. I think we may just disagree on what is evil. The word "evil" for me means an ultimate horrific behavior without the capacity for good, or the ability for redemption. I am not saying that this does not exist in our own world, I am just saying that evil in my own definition of the extream is not applicable to most of Tolkien's characters.

[Ñólendil]

Right. And I have a different interpretation of the word. So our arguments were, to me, pointless. Really we agree on everything except what "evil" means. We agree on what Fëanáro was, just not the name for it. It's semantics.

[Beruthiel]

Oooooooooooooooooooooo! it looks like there was quite a debate here.
Eol is one of my favorite characters. He's dark, and grim, and likes to live alone. He's created two of the best blades in Middle Earth, and he's pissed off!
Excellent motivation and plot.

Do I think he was evil? Or tainted? Well, I think he was just used to living the way he always had. After all, he paid Thingol to stay on Nan Elmoth, and was sortah just minding his p's and q's when everybody stumbled over HIM!

You gottah feel sorry for the Elf, after all, he's been through a lot. I think of him as being "scarred" by having to defend himself for so long.

Maybe that meteor material was a little radioactive, and it fried his brain a bit. Who knows? *heh* :D

[BeardofPants]

Ooh, good! Another one for the 'Eol was misunderstood' camp... :D

Welcome, Beruthiel!

[Willow Oran]

Perhaps he was misunderstood to the point where it caused him to become evil minded. Or maybe those swords were radioactive and they did fry his brain. Whatever the reason for his being the way he is, he still bugs me.

[Sicirus]

Eol was bitter but he was worse than Feamor for Feanor was and remained the most skilled of elves in Middle Earth and was raised by only his father. Plus he had seven pther brothers who just came into his fathers heart. I mean think of how made he went when he thought Melkor was tellinhg the truth. I mean he not only lost his mother he also was decieved by the dark Valar.
Eol though was very bitter and icelated from the other elves that his real company was the dwarves who lived in the dark out of greed and craft. But hey at least that was an elf who actually got along with dwarves. Anyway he tried to kill his son but ended up killing his wife instead. I mean he did trick her into marrying him and shunned her from the light and love of her people.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Eol was possesive about his family, and in particular about his child. This would be consider very wrong among the elves. They do no even use the the phrase "I have a son or children", They say, rather, they are children in my house, or similar phrases with no form or contation of possesion oven children.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sicirus
Eol was bitter but he was worse than Feamor for Feanor was and remained the most skilled of elves in Middle Earth and was raised by only his father. Plus he had seven pther brothers who just came into his fathers heart.

Having unsurpassing skills doesn't make a person better or worse IMO. I think you meant to say that Feänor had 7 sons instead of brothers. He had two half-brothers.

[Sicirus]

Sorry about my typin skills. I was late for my ride.

Well he did have compitition when it came to his fathers love with the other two brothers.
Eol was very skilled as well. Feanor was able to see the light and probably was more of a leader and more respected than Eol when it came to the elves.
Though I am reading the book again so I can look over what I have forgotten.

[Mirahzi]

Originally posted by Sicirus
Eol was very skilled as well. Feanor was able to see the light and probably was more of a leader and more respected than Eol when it came to the elves.
That realy depends on which elves are in question. Feanor certainly did not have the love of the Teleri after the Kin-slaying, nor the Sindarin folk of Thingol. Also, there was great enmity between him and the people of Fingolfin (Although the efforts of Maedhros helped to assuage that conflict).

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Mirahzi
(Although the efforts of Maedhros helped to assuage that conflict).

And Fingon. I would think it was mostly Fingon, there.

[Christiana]

Also, Eol doesnt have the excuse of being seduced