Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[Rían]

I did a bit, but many pics were links that were no longer there. The ones that WERE there were fun, though!

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I did a bit, but many pics were links that were no longer there. The ones that WERE there were fun, though!
I hope you noted that BoP and I look nothing alike.:D

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
"He said that any evil Morgoth did would rebound to good, and that Morgoth could create no tune that Ilúvatar wouldn't use for his own design"

thats incorrect. he said that morgoth could create no tune that did not have its uttermost source in eru.

Actually, it does say that. Simply in another place. I suppose I'll have to find it for you . . .

Originally posted by MasterMothra
"However, that is the view that you have to accept if you're going to say that he created evil, and that he predestined Morgoth or anyone else evil. "

illuvatar did create evil, he created everything. evil did not just happen, it was displayed through melkor in the music, and that music has its utmost source in eru. so evil can be traced back to eru.

Not necessarily. Permission for evil can be traced back to Ilúvatar, and that comes with free choice.

Ilúvatar didn't have to create evil, for consider this: How did Ilúvatar himself come to be? Did he create himself? By human standpoint, it doesn't make sense. He always was, because he exists outside of time. It's a dimension where things don't have to be made to exist; they simply are. Ilúvatar's character being good, I don't think he is evil in any way, or is responsible for evil. All that he is responsible for is giving us the free will that he gave us. But it is our choice what to do with the free will, so that responsibility doesn't have to fall on his shoulders either.


"The Noldor betrayed him, and Ilúvatar permitted them to go against him, but punished them by permitting Morgoth to work his evil against him."

if they are permitted, the wheres the free will?

Permission doesn't mean forcing. You allow the people, because you gave them free will, to do what they like. They can go against good, but that doesn't mean you're making them go against good. If they do evil, it isn't because you're forcing them to. Otherwise you can blame any evil deed that you commit on God.


"None of this shows that Ilúvatar creates evil "

it shows cirdan's view, and he's entitled to that. just as you are entitled to yours.

Quite true. That doesn't mean we can't discuss it though :).


since everyone likes to quote scripture, i've got a couple of my favs to share.

God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

He is good to all. But if he didn't punish evil or wrongdoing, then he wouldn't be just. And if you aren't just, then how can you be righteous? Mercy and justice are both strong parts of the Lord's character. He never punishes unjustly.

Here I'm sure we get into questions of acts of mass destruction that the Lord commits throughout the Bible. He hates sin, and he hates it completely. Throughout the Bible, he's destroying it. At first, during the Old Testament and part of the New, he acts with the sword. Later on, in the New Testament, he lets his own son die that sin might be destroyed in people's lives.

If you point out people that were innocent, yet were killed (Such as Job's children, for example), this doesn't have to be a contradiction either. What happens after death is in God's hands, and since he is just, he will do what's right with them after death. If you want to contest whether or not God can be just while committing mass killings, you might want to make a thread on it in General Messages. I think it's too totally off topic for this discussion.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
If you want to contest whether or not God can be just while committing mass killings, you might want to make a thread on it in General Messages. I think it's too totally off topic for this discussion.

Yes, we wouldn't want to drag religion into this now would we?:rolleyes: :D

[Lief Erikson]

No, certainly not! Religion . . . in this discussion? :eek: What an idea! ;)



Oh, some of you might be interested in what I found when looking through the Valaquenta today. This passage is about Melkor, and is a good verification, I think, of my theory that it was through pride and envy that he fell into evil.


From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself

[Rían]

Originally posted by Cirdan
I hope you noted that BoP and I look nothing alike.:D

:D

[Rían]

Religion! *gasp* :D

Oh, BTW, here's another Letters quote for you ... Wait! why is everyone running away?? oh well ... by JRRT, letter #183
In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honor.

And re the yin/yang thing - JRRT has said that evil is corrupted good, NOT equal and opposite to good. This was an interesting bit, from the same letter: by JRRT:
In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil. Satan fell. In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible.

[Rían]

And re your Bible quotes, MM - do you want some of us to take a quick cut at a response, or should we start a new thread, like Lief suggested, because it is rather a new (and would be long and complicated!) topic.

And did you see my post about reading "The Problem of Pain"? I'll quote a quick bit that I think is good: from The Problem of Pain, by C.S. Lewis:
By the goodness of God we mean nowadays almost exclusively His lovingkindness; and in this we may be right. And by Love, in this context, most of us mean kindness - the desire to see others than the self happy. What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, "What does it matter so long as they are contented?" We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all." Not many people, I admit, would formulate a theology in precisely those terms: but a conception not very different lurks at the back of many minds. I do not claim to be an exception: I should very much like to live in a universe which was governed on such lines. But since it is abundantly clear that I don't , and since I have reason to believe, nevertheless, that God is Love, I conclude that my conception of love needs correction.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
quote:
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From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself
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That was my sig when I first joined the 'Moot.:)

[Wayfarer]

I'm flattered by the comparison. Have you waded through the "Picture of Me" thread? Most of trhe people I thought were guys.. weren't.

Don't be flattered. The fact that we can reaasonably discuss something like this puts you quite a bit higher in my estimation, ;)

I don't believe he was predestined but more inclined by his nature than the others. It is not malicious on Iluvatar's part to create a catalyst for greater good. Is one sin greater than the sum of all the goodness? I don't think so.

I agree that Melkor's nature was more inclined to sin. This is partially because he was the greatest of the ainur (somebody had to be ;)) And he became conceited.

I think that the very traits which made morgoth so terrible-the desire to create and dominate-were the corruption of those traits which would have been the most useful for good.

Permission for evil can be traced back to Ilúvatar, and that comes with free choice.

I think what it boils down to is this: Is it better that all have free will, and some choose evil, or that none have free will, and be forced to do good?

Or, to look at it another way: Is it better that the universe be peopled with perfect automatons who do everything correctly, Or living beings that sometimes screw up?

I think the answer is obvious. It is better that all choose or reject goodness of their own free will, than that it be forced on them. We would hope that everyone would choose good, but if even one chooses good, it is better that the choice be given.

Ilúvatar's character being good, I don't think he is evil in any way, or is responsible for evil.

Aye, There's the rub. It depends on what your view of evil is.
The definition I cited earlier ('deviation from will of the Supreme Being') makes it impossible for Eru to commit evil. I don't like to argue by definition, but I really can't see any other way to make it clear.

I do believe that, in creating self-willed individuals who can deviate from his will, he creates the possibility of evil.

So 'did eru make melkor evil?' The answer is no. He created melkor with exclusively positive attributes, and one of these, free will, contains the possibility to do evil. But Manwe and Varda likewise had free will, and they choose to do good.

[MasterMothra]

" We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all."

hey, if that place existed i would worship god and praise him for his goodness without hesitation. thats what kind of heaven i would create if i were a god. no needless suffering, killing, raping, all to prove some ridiculous point. unfortunately that place doesnt exist, so ill just have to make do here on earth.:D

i just had a quick question. i've never really understood what purpose jesus' death served. before jesus, we could go to heaven or hell. after jesus' death we could still go to heaven or hell. what changed?

i only posted the scripture because it seemed like the thing to do here........

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
It is better that all choose or reject goodness of their own free will, than that it be forced on them. We would hope that everyone would choose good, but if even one chooses good, it is better that the choice be given.
Aye, There's the rub. It depends on what your view of evil is.
The definition I cited earlier ('deviation from will of the Supreme Being') makes it impossible for Eru to commit evil. I don't like to argue by definition, but I really can't see any other way to make it clear.

I do believe that, in creating self-willed individuals who can deviate from his will, he creates the possibility of evil.
My thoughts exactly. Thanks. I think this is the underlying philosophy of all histories from Arda.

It leaves the inhabitants of Arda with one question though: What exactly is the will of Eru?

[Wayfarer]

I had posted a response to mothra and artanis, but for some reason my browser saw fit to refresh the page, and I lost it.

Nuts.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
" We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all."

hey, if that place existed i would worship god and praise him for his goodness without hesitation. thats what kind of heaven i would create if i were a god. no needless suffering, killing, raping, all to prove some ridiculous point. unfortunately that place doesnt exist, so ill just have to make do here on earth.:D

OH, baloney! You'd be bored stiff after a few hundred years :D (figuratively speaking! ;) )

i just had a quick question. i've never really understood what purpose jesus' death served. before jesus, we could go to heaven or hell. after jesus' death we could still go to heaven or hell. what changed?

What a good question! I saw it last night before I went out to my dad's birthday dinner (73 years old!) and enjoyed thinking about it. Let's see if I can put my thoughts into typed words...

(1) I would say that Jesus' death for our sins was planned from before time (on our earth). The Bible clearly states Jesus was with God from the beginning and was part of the creation process. Because of the whole free will thing, God clearly envisioned the possibility of people making evil choices and needing a way to be reconciled to Him, and, in an extremely simplistic phrase, God and Jesus "worked things out" before creation (and in that sense, as I stated several pages ago, God indeed "took responsibility" for the possibility of evil) by "planning" redemption thru Jesus. And God certainly knew that Jesus would "make good" on His promise.

Now, however, since the earth is "in" time, there must be an actual time that would be the "best" time for Jesus' incarnation, life and death on earth, and indeed, the Bible says that Jesus came "at the right time" (or some similar wording). So I think that it's not that the death occured at an actual time, but that it was "agreed upon" before time.

(2) Now a reason why it would need to be 'visible' to people, as opposed to happening the day after the very first sin (presumably before writing had been developed, and certainly before TV!), is that it shows the horrible effects of sin. Crucifixion is an ugly death. Sin is ugly. And that's why it happened at the point of time that it did.

(3) Another reason would be the fulfillment of prophesy - crucifixion hadn't been 'invented' when some of the very graphic prophicies of Christ's death were written. So again, because it happened at a certain time, there were written records available to compare to prophesies.


SO - #1 is the main answer - His death was just a fulfillment of the agreement that makes salvation possible. #s 2 and 3 are some minor points.

Any other opinions/thoughts, anyone? Did that make any sense, MM?

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all."

hey, if that place existed i would worship god and praise him for his goodness without hesitation. thats what kind of heaven i would create if i were a god. no needless suffering, killing, raping, all to prove some ridiculous point. unfortunately that place doesnt exist, so ill just have to make do here on earth.:D

I'm going to deconstruct this for you, if you don't mind?

#1 You want a universe where anone can do anything they want, as long as they're enjoying themselves, and that's Ok?

#2 You also want a universe without killing, raping, pillaging, and whatnot.

Now, apply quality #1 to quality #2, and ask yourself-don't you think there will always be people who will enjoy killing, Raping, and Pillaging? And since you want everyone to enjoy themselves, you've basically given them carte blanche to do whatever they feel like at the moment.

Contrast that, on the other hand, to what christianity tells you is the case: God's plan for the universe is that all should choose, of their own free will, Goodness and love. This, my friend, is the universe in which there is no suffering.

Perhaps RÃ*an will help me out with a Lewis quote. I believe it is in the last chapter of 'christian behavior', where he says something like "while christianity at first seems to be all about rules and morality, it leads you past that and into a world where everybody is filled with goodness, but they don't call it goodness because they're not paying any attention to it."

i just had a quick question. i've never really understood what purpose jesus' death served. before jesus, we could go to heaven or hell. after jesus' death we could still go to heaven or hell. what changed?

Actually, nothing changed. ;) God required absolute perfection before. It still does. Humans were incapable of perfection. We still are. Only faith could bring about righteousness before, and only faith can bring about righteousness now.

Really, it makes sense, because christ died 'once for all'-not 'for everybody living now' or 'for everybody from this point on'. For every human past, present, and future.

Now, as to why he died at all, that is both easier and more difficult. To redeem sinful humans from death, is the obvious answer. But it goes deeper than that. Part of it is that God is just (or OMNIJust ;)) meaning that he takes evil seriously. He won't just dismiss it-there's a price to pay. Unfortunately, as imperfect, sinful beings, there's no way we can satisfy that price-how can an imperfect being satisfy the demands of perfection? Nothing. Only a perfect being can do that. And so God, being loving (OMNILOVING! :D) , becomes/begets jesus christ, the perfect man who satisfies the demands of justice on our behalf.

[Coney]

Enough with the God-Bothering............start a new thread for whatever-you-find-sacred sake:rolleyes:

[Wayfarer]

*ahem*

It's only courtesy to anser someone's questions.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
*ahem*

It's only courtesy to anser someone's questions.

Then surely it is courtesy to ansnwer the initial question without diverting into religious discussion:rolleyes: ....... there have been religion based threads in the past..........if you wish to discuss religion then surely that is the place for them? Ask for them to be re-opened or start a new one.

[Wayfarer]

Take note that the person doing the diverting is the same person that started the thread. ;)

[Rían]

Well, this is also a thread about the God of middle earth and one of the highest angels, so it's hard to NOT bring "religion" into it; in fact, it is entirely appropriate, IMO. And as Wayfarer said, we were answering a question. You're welcome to bring some POV's from other religions into this thread, if you want to - I would be interested to see things like that.

Now if we brought religion into one of my favorite threads, Writing in Tengwar, that would be a bit strange. I think you'll see that no one has mentioned religion over there.

BTW, Coney, your avatar made me think of the whole flat earth thing in Tolkien - did you know that he changed his mind in his later years and decided to go with a round earth, and Sun and Moon created before the Two Trees? Perhaps your avatar was a kind of transition stage between flat and round earth! :D

[Rían]

And I can't find my copy of Christian Behavior - drat, must have loaned it out. I lose so many Lewis books that way! But that sounds exactly like something he would write. Have you read Problem of Pain, Wayfarer and Lief (or anyone else?)

[Wayfarer]

I have not, aside from selected portions. I'm curently looking for that, The Weight of Glory, The Abolition of Man, et al.

[Rían]

Prob of Pain is one of my all-time favorite Lewis books. You should check into the CS Lewis thread in Gen Lit - have you seen it? I finally found someone who has read Till We Have Faces - a really wild Lewis book, with some incredible insights. I didn't know any one else that had ever read that book before, and crickhollow has! The only other person in the WORLD that I know of that has read that book. I had to order it from the publisher.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Take note that the person doing the diverting is the same person that started the thread. ;) Excuse me, but I've done nothing of the sort. :confused: :rolleyes:
I would not like this thread to be a discussion about religion/Christianity in general. I would prefer to keep the Christian God out. But it's not up to me to decide.

[MasterMothra]

"Now, apply quality #1 to quality #2, and ask yourself-don't you think there will always be people who will enjoy killing, Raping, and Pillaging? And since you want everyone to enjoy themselves, you've basically given them carte blanche to do whatever they feel like at the moment."

what is heaven then? are we free from all this in heaven?

jesus's death didnt change anything. that leads to the question, "what was he trying to change?". why was there a need for the new testament? was the old test wrong? its ridiculous to even think that the bible was divinely inspired. the hypocrisy and contradictions are numerous. thats why i dont take it says seriously. there are some good thoughts to live by in psalms, but most of it if laughable at best.

[Sween]

My views upon relgion are pretty well known and most likly quite offensive to some. I feel relgion has never given anything to the world except hardship and suffering and admitally in cockermouth a very cheep cafe that does nice baggetts but bar the nice cafe that does nice baggets it has provided a lot of pain and anguish.

As for jesus dieing for our sins surely that is basically a move away from all other christian belifs such as we are responiable for our own actions etc. And what right does someone have to claim judgement over you if you dont acknoledge there authority?

now back to the thread. Did he make him evil? No i doubt the way i read the situation is quite simple to make someone whole they have to have certain elements along with godness and light we also all have a dark side and are all capable of evil to understand evil we have to have a bit of evil within ourselves.

now for melkor he was once good but he had a free will and ambition (surely the most common road to evil) he wished to rule and be different from the valar. The basic of the valar is an odd one as all are considered to be equal but they are not if you so folow me as no one is equal.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
what is heaven then? are we free from all this in heaven?

Let's consider heaven for a moment. Satan was in heaven at one time, and far more glorified than most Christians probably are today. He was a very high angel, one of the greatest. And yet, he had free will, and he chose to make a rebellion. That happened in heaven. I personally don't think that heaven has changed in some dramatic way since Satan and all those other angels revolted.

So yes, we do have the possibility of evil in heaven. But now let's think again about what happens to Christians on Earth. Christ died, and in doing so he opened up the door for people to come to know him. When they choose to step through that door, Christ begins the work of rooting out all that is evil in their lives and replacing it with his nature. When he does this, the inclination of the individual is set toward God, and the nature of the person changes to righteousness over sin.

So sin is possible in heaven, but there won't be any sin. For God won't allow any into heaven which have sin in them, but only his own.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
jesus's death didnt change anything. that leads to the question, "what was he trying to change?".

If you didn't pay attention to RÃ*an's post addressing this, please read it, for it answers the question quite well in my opinion.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why was there a need for the new testament? was the old test wrong?

The Bible was created over a large span of time, and many people contributed to its creation. The Old Testament is full of prophesies and stories of different individuals' lives. But more than that, the primary use of it is a record of Israel's history as God's chosen nation.

But the New Testament was for a different purpose, to my thinking. It was largely about a different subject, which is Christ's life here on Earth.

These are major generalizations, and I'm sure many people could put these things better than I have. But the New Testament wasn't a replacement of the Old Testament, as the name might imply. It is a continuation of it, but about different things.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
its ridiculous to even think that the bible was divinely inspired. the hypocrisy and contradictions are numerous. thats why i dont take it says seriously. there are some good thoughts to live by in psalms, but most of it if laughable at best.

Please keep bringing your questions on; they are very interesting to think about.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sween
I feel relgion has never given anything to the world except hardship and suffering and admitally in cockermouth a very cheep cafe that does nice baggetts but bar the nice cafe that does nice baggets it has provided a lot of pain and anguish.

I agree that all religions have caused unnecessary hardships upon mankind (Christianity included). Saying it has never given anything to the world except that though shows simple unbelief. That people misinterpret God's will is plain to see . . . Even Paul, in the Bible misinterpreted his will drastically.

Originally posted by Sween
As for jesus dieing for our sins surely that is basically a move away from all other christian belifs such as we are responiable for our own actions etc.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians who do believe what you have just said to be true. They say that because they are saved, because they believe in God, they can go ahead and do what they like. And they are a terrible witness of God's Truth, and are hypocrits if they claim to believe that the Bible is entirely true.

When someone becomes a Christian, it means they have more responsibility, not less. For now they are witnesses of God's truth, and must be right with him, and acting according to his will.

Originally posted by Sween
And what right does someone have to claim judgement over you if you dont acknoledge there authority?

Are you a parent? Well, if you are, look at it this way. You have children, and what if they refuse to acknowledge your authority? They are yours, so even if they refuse to acknowledge your authority, you still punish them for their disobedience and wrongdoing. God created all of us, just as you created your children, so we can't simply refuse to accept his judgement.

Originally posted by Sween
My views upon relgion are pretty well known and most likly quite offensive to some.

Well, your views are very understandable to me, and not at all offensive. You are welcome to keep them as well, but I hope you don't mind my answering to the best of my ability any questions that you have. It makes me very sad that Christians' being a bad witness, in history and in the present(It also very much bugs me), has deterred you from coming to know Christ.


Oh, one thing I did want to mention is that I agree with all of the opinions you've stated about the reasons for Melkor's being evil. I also agree with you that the Valar aren't equal. It's just like humanity in that way, I suppose. Some humans are greater than others in power. Some humans are more beautiful than others, but those others might be more skillful at dancing or something than the other. Some people are less talented and some are more talented, some are more bright and some less bright. I guess it's the same with the Valar, and there are actually quite a lot of evidences to point to the truth of this perspective. If anyone disagrees with this point of view, I'd be happy to start bringing up these examples :).

To Artanis:

Well Artanis, I'm afraid I have to agree with RÃ*an, and I'm sorry that you have trouble with our bringing God into the debate. The thread that you've started is closely interconnected with some people's religious beliefs (Like mine), so much that it'd be very, very tough to separate them. Particularly as some of Tolkien's own religious beliefs come across in his work very clearly. Many of my posts here are entirely about the Silmarillion, while others are entirely about Christian beliefs. It's just impossible to separate them for me on a topic as close (or to me identical) as this issue is to Christianity.

[MasterMothra]

"God indeed "took responsibility" for the possibility of evil) by "planning" redemption thru Jesus. And God certainly knew that Jesus would "make good" on His promise."

read the entire passage and it was well thought out. kinda deja vu for me because i was a christian for 20 years and i thought the same way. there are a few questions i have regarding the statement above.

planning redemption through jesus. there was no need for this in the first place, if there were, then none who sinned could enter heaven b/f jesus came along. we all know that wasnt likely, seeing how abraham(pimped out his wife sara to the pharroah to gain favor and material goods), lot(offered his daughters to the messengers of god for sexual favors) and david(slept and impregnated a married woman, then had her husband murdered and married her afterwards) committed some pretty horrible sins themselves under gods eyes.

jesus making ood on his promise. what was the promise?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Admin Note- I understand that the discussion taking place in this thread may relate to comparisons in real life, namely religion. Comparing the god and evil in Tolkien to god and evil in our world is fine, however, I am seeing more chatter about religion then I am seeing about Iluvatar and Morgoth. That then tends to make the thread off topic.

PLEASE keep the discussion on religion to a minimum. A little more Tolkien and a little less religion folks. This has been a good thread. I don't want to have to close it.

[Rían]

Oh, I really want to answer MM's question, because (1) it's easy to answer! :) and (2) it's an important misunderstanding to correct, but what do you say, SGH? Should I answer here, but keep it shorter, or answer in a PM, or answer in another thread, or what? Awaiting your queenly decision ... :)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Well Artanis, I'm afraid I have to agree with RÃ*an, and I'm sorry that you have trouble with our bringing God into the debate.What I tried to say is that the Christian aspect for me has little or no relevance to the discussion, since I'm not religious, and my knowledge of Christianity is quite limited. I prefer a more general philosophical view. But I understand that most of you have a different view on this, and if bringing Christianity into the discussion is what works best for you, then it's fine with me, but it's not what I would prefer.

[Sween]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lief Erikson
[B]
Are you a parent? Well, if you are, look at it this way. You have children, and what if they refuse to acknowledge your authority? They are yours, so even if they refuse to acknowledge your authority, you still punish them for their disobedience and wrongdoing. God created all of us, just as you created your children, so we can't simply refuse to accept his judgement.

Well, your views are very understandable to me, and not at all offensive. You are welcome to keep them as well, but I hope you don't mind my answering to the best of my ability any questions that you have. It makes me very sad that Christians' being a bad witness, in history and in the present(It also very much bugs me), has deterred you from coming to know Christ.

Oh, one thing I did want to mention is that I agree with all of the opinions you've stated about the reasons for Melkor's being evil. I also agree with you that the Valar aren't equal. It's just like humanity in that way, I suppose. Some humans are greater than others in power. Some humans are more beautiful than others, but those others might be more skillful at dancing or something than the other. Some people are less talented and some are more talented, some are more bright and some less bright. I guess it's the same with the Valar, and there are actually quite a lot of evidences to point to the truth of this perspective. If anyone disagrees with this point of view, I'd be happy to start bringing up these examples :).

i am indeed soon to become a perant :D and i hope my child will respond to my guidence (as a perent it my responability to make them understand im against this whole idea of im your father you should automatically listen to me they should be free to question). But my point is that i know where i came from (my perents) and i know where they came from we evolved through time from other animals there was no god involved its all in science so no i dont reconise god as i firmly believe that he does not exist.

Now for tolkiens world god does exist its pretty well documented. Now another thing i believe is there there cannot be good without evil in the same way there cannot be beauty without uglyness.

the real question of melkor is why did he go down the road to evil so early one? He allways seemed from the start to go off opn his own. i would personally call him a loner or maybe he other valar just didnt like him you you leave him out and not invite him to there birthday parties etc. Its clear that his will was much much different from the other valar even early on.

so did eru make melkor evil? the answer is probably. Been a god he proibably has a good idea what will happen and he made something about melkor that would lead him down the path to evil. But why? my personal theory is that the world would not of progressed and people would not of achved what they could of without evil. War when ever it happens does cause even in our own world a lot of progression which is a good thing. Also evil in many a way make people better. if there was no evil would anyone really be good? no we would just be allright i would think never know what true happiness is.

[Andúril]

*Anduril becomes restless, but subsequently falls back into his deep atheological sleep*

[Cirdan]

Tolkien created Melkor evil.

[Andúril]

*Anduril awakens*

Umm....I haven't read this entire thread, but I was just wondering if a definition of "evil" has been agreed upon. If so, what is it?

*Anduril is too lazy to read previous seven pages*

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sween
But my point is that i know where i came from (my perents) and i know where they came from we evolved through time from other animals there was no god involved its all in science so no i dont reconise god as i firmly believe that he does not exist.

You are created by God, whether you acknowledge it or not, and whether you believe it or not. If your children refuse to acknowledge that you exist, then you must give them a way to know that you exist. God gives this opportunity. It isn't all "surface worship," although it is for some "Christians." Pray that God will reveal himself, and pray it sincerely, and you will come to know him. He will reveal himself to you without your having to take any effort, except that taken by praying (And praying isn't hard).

If you refuse to look into this evidence that God exists, then it is your fault, not God's, that you don't know him. And he still has the right to punish you, forgive you or do anything that a normal parent might do to his child.

As for your statements about evolution . . . I have some very good answers to your statements on that score, but I don't think that I should get into that in depth here, because Sister Golden Hair objects.


the real question of melkor is why did he go down the road to evil so early one? He allways seemed from the start to go off opn his own. i would personally call him a loner or maybe he other valar just didnt like him you you leave him out and not invite him to there birthday parties etc. Its clear that his will was much much different from the other valar even early on.

Melkor actually wasn't any different from the others earlier on, except that he was more powerful. It says that he fell from splendor through arrogance into evil. This implies that he wasn't evil in the beginning. But Ilúvatar made in his creations an ability to choose between good and evil. Arrogance seems to me to be a very logical first error, and it can easily be a step to greater evils. Melkor, because of his power and gifts, had greater temptations than the others, and that explains why he chose the path of evil. But evil wasn't inherent in him; that much is obvious if you consider the way he fell, and that it says he fell from splendor to evil.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
You are created by God, whether you acknowledge it or not, and whether you believe it or not. If your children refuse to acknowledge that you exist, then you must give them a way to know that you exist. God gives this opportunity. It isn't all "surface worship," although it is for some "Christians." Pray that God will reveal himself, and pray it sincerely, and you will come to know him. He will reveal himself to you without your having to take any effort, except that taken by praying (And praying isn't hard).

If you refuse to look into this evidence that God exists, then it is your fault, not God's, that you don't know him. And he still has the right to punish you, forgive you or do anything that a normal parent might do to his child.

As for your statements about evolution . . . I have some very good answers to your statements on that score, but I don't think that I should get into that in depth here, because Sister Golden Hair objects.



Melkor actually wasn't any different from the others earlier on, except that he was more powerful. It says that he fell from splendor through arrogance into evil. This implies that he wasn't evil in the beginning. But Ilúvatar made in his creations an ability to choose between good and evil. Arrogance seems to me to be a very logical first error, and it can easily be a step to greater evils. Melkor, because of his power and gifts, had greater temptations than the others, and that explains why he chose the path of evil. But evil wasn't inherent in him; that much is obvious if you consider the way he fell, and that it says he fell from splendor to evil.

god does not exist and if he does i reject him because hes the root of all evil and a little peice of **** that i would'nt even wipe.......hmmm better stop b4 get in trouble with mods.

Now as for melkor been better at something doesnt automatically make you evil. And is he much stronger than the other valar? Tulkas seemed to have little trouble kicking his ass every once and a while.

I think its more to do with him been a loner.

[Cirdan]

This is heading to the death spiral unless the god talk stops..

Just because Melkor starts from a pointt of grace does not preclude a fall of destiny. There is still no answer as to what was different between Melkor and the rest. All of the Ainur show some degree of weakness at various times. Arrogance was the symptom, but where was the disease?

Evolution? Do you really want to go there?:p :D

[MasterMothra]

"You are created by God, whether you acknowledge it or not, and whether you believe it or not."

no, im not, and you werent either. god is a idea made up to control peoples thought. its that simple.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Cirdan
This is heading to the death spiral unless the god talk stops..

Very true:rolleyes:

[MasterMothra]

"Tolkien created Melkor evil"

thats about as true as it gets!:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

You know, I think all has been said that can be said. Tolkien made Melkor evil says it all. Closing.