Why LOTR is the work of the devil

[IronParrot]

... according to people like this one, anyway:

http://logosresourcepages.org/rings.htm

It gets hilariously weak by the time he gets to arguments such as:
"Though I have forgotten many of the details of the books, I can recall very vividly that they are filled with occultic imagery" and "The song "Misty Mountain Hop" by the demonic hard rock group, Led Zeppelin, was inspired by Tolkien’s writings."

Seriously, do the people who argue this sort of trash ever know what they're talking about?

[Khamûl]

Some people have way too much time on their hands...:rolleyes:

[The Ringbearer]

I'm not even going to read it. It will only get me angry.:rolleyes:

[emplynx]

I am going to write up a good responce to that sometime...

[samwiselvr2008]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... to many big words, i don't get it, use smaller words!!!

[Faramir]

Was LZ even around when Tolkien wrote the Hobbit??? NO!:mad:

[webwizard333]

I've been to that website before, I personally think that the author has serious problems with fault-finding, but that article didn't seem up to his usual standards of criticism for going against Biblical doctrine. For instance, where was the criticism over the role of Eoryn, who was a women and still fought (despite the presence of many brave men which makes all the difference)? Oh well, at least he did point out that Tolkien said that it wasn't allegory.

[Comic Book Guy]

Apparently if you read the Lord of the Rings backwards you read a message from Satan.

[Radagast The Brown]

you can't know until you try it. :) and I really don't care if this man thinks about LOTR. If he don't like it - his probalm.

[webwizard333]

Perhaps we should invite him to join Entmoot. ;)

[cassiopeia]

Uh oh he said a naughty word: allegory:)

He knocks everything: rock and roll, hippies and computer games. I know that since I read the book and watched the movie that I have joined the occult and regularily worship satan:D I'm won't even say what I think of people like this and the bible.

[BeardofPants]

So he's an evil allegorist who pushed the occultic and satanic rollplaying and heavy metal genre upon unsuspecting druggies? :rolleyes: I'd make fun of him, but it's all too easy to do. :rolleyes:

[jediguy]

There's only one thing I can do when coming across these articles:

(<-) Back

[Lanelf]

*rolls eyes*:rolleyes: There's just no talking to some people. Particularly when you're a thirteen-foot tall demon with smoke coming from your ears and frying people with your eyes. :rolleyes: (that is a joke, everyone... No worries, right?) ;)
Yeah, whatever. If that person was not so involved in searching for evil meanings in good books, maybe they'd walk outside their house and see what is actually happening.

[Christiana]

What i dont like about that is it gives Christians a bad name.Heck,i think lotr has holy messages in it,like,small people can make a difference.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Christiana
...small people can make a difference.

That's hardly the sole property of christianity. Themes like that pre-date the christian era.

[Khadrane]

Because of this article, I am giving up all Tolkien. I have seen the light. Tolkien was a demonic man, and his works are satanic. Just kidding. What a retard! Articles like this make me so mad!

[Christiana]

bop,i mean that Lotr isnt completely deviod of Christian belifs.

[Elvellon]

Charming. :rolleyes:

Another “burn all the books! They are all evil I tell you!” Loony.

At least he made me laugh.

[Darth Tater]

Hrmm, so the fact that Tolkien was a devoit Catholic who converted CS Lewis to Christianity means nothing, huh?

[Aragorns Dimple]

Methinks the readers of the Bible (pure fiction) dislike LoTR (more great fiction) because it is reaching a new level of interest and following in the world, usurping the Bible's previous dominance of the Fiction Bestseller List for the past 2,000 years.

[BeardofPants]

C'mon. We all know how evil catholics are. :p

[Darth Tater]

OK Aragorn's Dimple that's pure [EDITED] like the ppl who say you can't like Star Wars and LOTR, but that they have to compete. The Bible is a great work, and wether you accept the religion of it or not it's a very true historical account, possibly the best in existance.

Tater, you can't say that. Can you?:p SGH

[Christiana]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
C'mon. We all know how evil catholics are. :p

sheesh,bug off.

[Comic Book Guy]

sheesh,bug off.

Learn to take a joke.

[afro-elf]

true historical account, possibly the best in existance.

minus god, angels, miracles, the erroneous historical parts, etc you might have a page or two :p

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
C'mon. We all know how evil catholics are. :p

Wheher or not this is a joke, I believe the proper way of saying this would be

"We all know how evil some catholics can be."

It's like someone else saying

"We all know how unclean non-virgins are." :p

To which my answer would be

"Yeah, some people can be evil but I can't find any correlation with their religion, lifestyle, etc...." :)

[Comic Book Guy]

Keep to the Original Topic everybody.

[anduin]

Hrmm, so the fact that Tolkien was a devoit Catholic who converted CS Lewis to Christianity means nothing, huh?

No, because they were "drinking buddies".

[Arathorn]

Regarding Mr Cloud's article, I think that all he might just be trying to say is that christians should avoid trying to use Tolkien's books as an allegory of their version of a divine story. He gives examples about a lot of RPG's pushed forth mostly by D&D and all these concepts of "occultist" objects such as wizards and wraiths only to push his point by using concepts that these groups may find taboo.

In my view, any physical and even literal obect can be used for either good or evil. It is the mind who uses it that performs the act and makes it good/evil. I guess one may want to interpret it as an allegory of whatever but it becomes dangerous when people start taking your interpretations too literally and in some case, act on them.

For example (a ridiculous one),

"I want to throw my boss' ring into a smelter so he will lose his power over me"

[Christiana]

D&D rocks.

[Renille]

That's really incredibly stupid. I didn't read it, because I read something else very similar to this in an earlier thread. I assume they're all alike. :p

I'm a practising Catholic. Every single report on Tolkien, Lord of the Rings, the movie, everything written by Catholic reporters are always positive. SO unless I missed the fact that Catholic people are like the devil...:p

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Aragorns Dimple
Methinks the readers of the Bible (pure fiction) dislike LoTR (more great fiction) because it is reaching a new level of interest and following in the world, usurping the Bible's previous dominance of the Fiction Bestseller List for the past 2,000 years. I don't think that the bible will ever be overridden as the best selling book of all-time. I'm a christian, and I like LotR! Even though it really isn't an allegory like Narnia, it is filled with Christian themes! (Read Finding God in the Lord of the Rings for more info.)
anduin, now that you mention that - in a sense, Jesus's diciples were drinking buddies too!

[Andúril]

Emplynx:
Jesus's diciples were drinking buddies too!I agree. The problem is, will we ever find liquor as hard as that ever again?

[Rei]

Those people have some SERIOUS issues.

[anduin]

......in a sense, Jesus's diciples were drinking buddies too!

LOL!! Don't mention that to the author!

[samwiselvr2008]

okay, i finally desided to go to the web site, and now i know what you gise are talking about! i disagree with the person who wrote all of the stuff on that page! even if tolkien did not mean to add christian things in his books, he did. he probally did not even notice it though. he may have puted some things in that he wouldent if he had not read the Bible, like as an exsample,whene he (gandalf) is talking to wormatoug in the two towers gandalf says something close to what God says to satin in the garden of eden! we all say things that we don't mean to, and things that we try not to, and things that we wish we hadn't, and tolkien is not any difrent!

and who said that ALL rock in roll singers were bad? i never lissen to any rock in roll, but i suppose that there has to be some that is not bad! and even if all of them are bad, that dos not make tolkien bad dose it???:confused:

[Wayfarer]

THe sad thing is... that's pretty mild compared to some of hte stuff I've read.

One author said that 'sauron is clearly meant to represent god, and since he can only be defeated by everybody banding together agianst him, tolkien obviously wanted everybody to join together in athiesm'

Or 'the two towers is a clear statement about 911'

[Wayfarer]

THe sad thing is... that's pretty mild compared to some of hte stuff I've read.

One author said that 'sauron is clearly meant to represent god, and since he can only be defeated by everybody banding together agianst him, tolkien obviously wanted everybody to join together in athiesm'

Or 'the two towers is a clear statement about 911'

[Lanelf]

Not that 9/11 reference *AGAIN*!
Did the people who write these things know that Tolkien was... Pardon the estimate, I need to catch up on my history... about 50 years before 9/11, and thus had to be either a time-traveller or a seer to name his book the Two Towers in reference to that?

</rant>;)

Anyway, Tolkien's Towers were Orthanc and Minas Tirith, if I recall correctly. I read it on the back of one of the books ages ago.

[HOBBIT]

Originally posted by Lanelf
Not that 9/11 reference *AGAIN*!
Did the people who write these things know that Tolkien was... Pardon the estimate, I need to catch up on my history... about 50 years before 9/11, and thus had to be either a time-traveller or a seer to name his book the Two Towers in reference to that?

</rant>;)

Anyway, Tolkien's Towers were Orthanc and Minas Tirith, if I recall correctly. I read it on the back of one of the books ages ago. ]


Obviously you have not even read it. There is no mention of The Two Towers meaning 9/11 in this one. Read what wayfarer said again.....

[Panther2112]

I read the article and found it somewhat amusing. I believe very strongly in the Creator and found nothing evil in the books or movie. I love rock and roll and do not do drugs, not that this fact has anything to do with TLOTRs. Some people need to get a grip. Is it a sin to read fantasy, to listen to a certain type of music. I don't think God would object (although I am no expert). Life can be tough sometimes, so whats wrong with a little escapism through books and movies. Nothing! Lets just love one another and not be so judgemental.:cool:

[ladyisme]

Well said Panther2112, I happen to agree with the general opinion that the author of this artical should get himself a healthy dose of reality. For example, just because someone you don't approve of writes a song inspired by a certain author's work doesn't mean you should blame the author. After all, how a composer happens to translate a story into music has as much to do with the composer's own personal taste as with what the author wrote. Just look at the wide range of music in the Rivendell branch of the Tolkien Trail, all that music was inspired by the same work but if you listen you can hear that the music of each composer sounds very different from the others.

"The road goes ever on and on down from the door where it began."

[Wayfarer]

Reality check indeed.

I wonder what he would say about me, a devoted christian, writing tolkien inspired songs?

Wait a minute, I know... he'd say I should give up writing.

[Panther2112]

I think both Ladyisme and Wayfarer show just how off base this person is. Since I have become envolved in this site, I have read many post by decent and kind people. If that's Santinism, well I guess I'm going to burn. Tolkien has given us a tresure in his books. A truley classic piece of literature that shows a great diversity of characters, some noble and good, some evil. But in the end love and courage conquer evil. Thank you very much indeed Mr. Tolkien.:)

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

That's it, now they've gone too far.

C.S. Lewis did not accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God and he picked and chose what he would believe about the New Testament apostolic faith, rejecting such things as the substitutionary blood atonement of Christ.

How can they not belive Lewis's faith? He became a Christian because of writing the Narnia series!

Dissing Tolkien is just stupid ramblings, but dissing C.S. Lewis and doubting his faith is blasphemy.

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Umm...blasphemy?

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Interesting....I was just looking at the part about Harry Potter and it said that World Magazine liked and recomended it. That's a lie. They are very much against Harry Potter.

[Entlover]

Okay, I read it too.

C.S. Lewis is a "Christian of sorts?" That's like saying Billy Graham is a Christian of sorts. Lewis is only the 20th century's premier apologist.

And the guy obviously equate Catholics with non-Christians.

The world is full of ignorant people. The best thing to do is ignore them.

[sun-star]

These are my favourite bits:

In his last interview, two years before his death, he unhesitatingly testified, "I’m a devout Roman Catholic."

Tolkien, in fact, is credited with influencing Lewis to become a Christian of sorts. Like Tolkien, though, Lewis did not accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God and he picked and chose what he would believe about the New Testament apostolic faith, rejecting such things as the substitutionary blood atonement of Christ. And like Tolkien, C.S. Lewis loved at least some things about Catholicism. He believed in purgatory, confessed his sins to a priest, and had the last rites performed by a Catholic priest

They perfectly combine prejudice, ignorance, and intolerance. It's amazing.:rolleyes: Obviously Tolkien's real crime is not writing a book with occult imagery, it's not being the kind of Christian the author approves of. He must be very arrogant to think he can make that kind of judgement about someone else's faith.

Oh wait, I forgot this bit:

Though I have forgotten many of the details of the books, I can recall very vividly that they are filled with occultic imagery.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Wayfarer]

Like Tolkien, though, Lewis did not accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God and he picked and chose what he would believe about the New Testament apostolic faith.

Umm... I'm pretty sure he did accept the bible, and it was not New Testament faith that he rejected, but the psuedo christianity that is still popular today.

[Khadrane]

People like that author make me so mad! I have to go break something. :)

[Tessar]

I sent the dude an e-mail.

Hi,
My name is Anthony and I'm 13 years old.
I felt that there were some things wrong in what you said so I would like to say my views on a few of them.

There is white magic and black magic in Tolkien’s fantasies.

I could be very wrong but I think the point is that there are good and bad magic users. Also did you know that all the "wizards" were actually spirits that were sent to middle earth in the form of old men? So they aren't people who have "studied magic". They have the powers of Eru (God) in them and they can use them for good or evil. Sauruman was the only "wizard" who turned to evil (other than Sauron [Satan]). My mother hates the idea of wizards and such. But she likes Gandalf. He isn't throwing fireballs everywhere. He rarely uses his "magic" and he RESPECTS it. He fears power. That is why he didn't take the ring.


Tolkien’s books created the vast and spiritually dangerous fantasy role-playing games that are so influential today.

I'm very sorry sir but that is like saying that Orville and his brother made kamikazes. Tolkien defined the genre of fantasy. EVERY ONE copies from him in one-way or another. The people who made D&D just copied some of the stuff. And no, I am not defending D&D. I hate D&D but I enjoy Role Playing. My mother told me that Role Playing was all right so long as there was no magic in it. Fantasy doesn't HAVE to have magic.

Tolkien certainly did get his ideas from pagan religions, and the message promoted in his fantasy books is strictly pagan.
I may need to reread it but please point to the verse that says "Worship Eru. All other God(s) are false".

ROCK AND ROLLERS LOVE TOLKIEN

Most people do you know.

The song "Misty Mountain Hop" by the demonic hard rock group, Led Zeppelin, was inspired by Tolkien’s writings.

What led you that conclusion? I have never heard the song and so can't speak of it myself. Also people can take a good thing and do bad stuff to it. Like people who steal the Eucharist for their "Black Mass" and desecrate the host.

The world knows its own; and when the demonic world of fantasy role-playing and the morally filthy world of rock and roll love something, you can be sure it is not godly and it is not the truth.

1. Fantasy Role Playing isn't always demonic (although most of it is, unfortunately :\)
2. Not all rock and roll is filthy. Although if you speak only of the "Hard rock" parts I really couldn't say. I don't listen to it.

Also may I mention about Tolkien being into ancient mythology. It would have to be pagan. Everything was back then. There were no “Catholics” for quite some time.

I'm glad that you did write this though. It shows some interesting things that I never would have thought of.

Anthony-the-overactive-chipmunk

P.S. You have some nice LOTR pics up there. Really like the one of Sir Ian. He seems nice.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Actualy what I ment was. Thanks for writing this, I was board and e-mailing you gave me something to do. You are clearly a fool and I never would have thought up such trash myself in a million years.

heh, too bad it would have ben rude to add that :)There is white magic and black magic in Tolkien’s fantasies.

[Wayfarer]

Tessar, I'm going to be nice and not nitpick your letter.

Good show.

[BeardofPants]

I'm sorry Tessar, but I don't think that letter is going to help. Next time you want to shoot yourself in the foot, at least get someone to help you aim a little higher. :rolleyes: :eek:

[Handmaiden of Yavanna]

I just read the artical and all I can say is that that is the worst bunch of crap I have heard in a long time!!! :mad:

I mean seriously, I understand that everyone has a right to their own opinion but their argument was taking it too far!! LOTR is a wonderfull fantasy with even better morals displayed in it!!

Good for you Tessar!! Thank you for sending that letter even though it won't change the dude's mind atleast it will let him know that their are some differing opinions in the world!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

OMG that makes me sooooo mad!!

[Tessar]

I know it wont make a diff :) I was completly board.

[Christiana]

er,i think melkor is more of a satan figure.

[jerseydevil]

I didn't read the article - but does this mean I can trade in my Satanic Bible for LotR? :D Just kidding people. Although I do have a copy of it - but it's packed away in Indiana.

Since I'm atheist - I don't understand where these people come from. Even growing up Roman Catholic and going to 10 years of Catholic School - I never understood these bigotted, self-rightgeous, ignorant, hypocritical people. I have nothing wrong with people being religious - but these people go way too far. Anything they disapprove is a evil.

In Seymour IN a top 40 radio station was shut down because the "religious" community banded together. I have no idea how they managed to do it - but I guess it's the same way they get to dictate that there CAN NOT be any school events on Wednesday. These type of people scare me.

oh - and Tessar - I just read your letter. Fantasy is neither good nor evil anything is up to the person. When I used to play D&D my mother kept reading how teenagers were fulfilling their fantasies and actually killing people in real life or that they were all committing suicide. It said that D&D was becoming their life. But people can go overboard with anything. It's fake - so playing D&D isn't going to corrupt you or make you evil if you already aren't. It's not even going to warp your mind unless you actually believe it. Maybe that's why I can have a copy of the Satanic Bible and not care - because I don't believe in it.

[webwizard333]

Tessar, did you ever get a reply to your e-mail?

[jerseydevil]

I just read the article - he could at least get the title of The Return of the King correct -


The individual titles of the trilogy are "The Fellowship of the Ring," "The Two Towers," and "The Return of the Ring."


And with this I think he makes my point about whatever they dislike is evil and they blindly teach their bigotry...


The world knows its own; and when the demonic world of fantasy role-playing and the morally filthy world of rock and roll love something, you can be sure it is not godly and it is not the truth.


And how dare he claim that Ilúvatar is fiction. Just because he hasn't seen him doesn't mean he doesn't exist. :p You can see his handy work all around. :D


The heavy metal rock group Iluvatar named themselves after a fictional god from Tolkien’s work The Silmarillion.

[Sicirus]

different people have there own beliefs and this person needs to respect them. They have an idea of what their talking about but they obviusly don't know what is real and not real. So what if people believe in the ME relegion, thats their choice and you can't change it. Of course everyone has seperate opinions. Thats what makes America.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sicirus
Of course everyone has seperate opinions. Thats what makes America.

Nergh. How US-ocentric. :rolleyes: You mean: that's what makes humans unique, don't you? :eek:

[Faramir]

No, in some countries, people don't have opinions. How BoPish, hating all Americans.

[Sicirus]

Right! In some countries people can get killed for their opinions. Thats what makes the Us unique. course other countries are free of course. So in a way, yes i do mean the uniqueness of all human opinions.

[BeardofPants]

Now Faramir, there's no need to resort to that. Now be a good boy and point out where I said that I hated Americans. :rolleyes: And as for that silly point you made about suppressed people, they still have opinions you knob, they just can't express them. So there. :p

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Now Faramir, there's no need to resort to that. Now be a good boy and point out where I said that I hated Americans. :rolleyes: And as for that silly point you made about suppressed people, they still have opinions you knob, they just can't express them. So there. :p

Well in the US we're a little more free in being able to express our opinions. Such as KKK marches, Neo Nazis, Black Panthers, the burning of our flag. Whether it's popular or not - those groups have a right to express their opinions as much as any other American. I know that Germany does not allow a lot of expression and opinion in those things.

I am very patriotic - but I am completely against a Constitutional Amendment that protects the flag from desecration. Few countries allow as much freedom to express one's own opinion as America does.

And if an opinion can never be expressed openly then what good is it?

Oh - and this had better NOT become a "let's bash America" thread.

[BeardofPants]

Again: point out where I said, "lets bash America" and I'll stop arguing for a week. ( :eek: ) I merely pointed out that it is not just America that it entitled to their opinions - how do you think I got this opinionated in the first place? ;)

Anyway, better get back on topic before the mods catch on. :D

Lord of the Rings is the work of the devil! :p

[Comic Book Guy]

Oh - and this had better NOT become a "let's bash America" thread.

Why not, American-bashers are entitled to their opinion aren't they? ;)

Anyway, please stay on Topic.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy


Why not, American-bashers are entitled to their opinion aren't they? ;)

Anyway, please stay on Topic.

Yeah - they do have a right to their opinion and a right to express it - but the topic has nothing to do with America. So many topics on entmoot end up as "American bashing" threads. It gets a little old after a while really. I know we're the evil empire, we don't do anything that OTHER countries want us to do, we're self centered, etc, etc. Name me any other country and I can show you how they have the same "faults".

Anyway - after careful consideration -and after buying LotR DVD - I have determined that LotR must be evil and controlled by the devil. Why else would I buy it the first day it came out when I didn't even think it was that great? :D I'm possessed - that's all there is to it.

[Christiana]

hehe.lol

[Tessar]

Nope, never got a reply. I can only hope he atleast thought to offer up a little something for me.

"And now, please take a moment to pray for a young man who suffers greatly in spirit and reads the work of the devil"

Me - "Wow, I just got a tingle down my spine. Someone must have walked over my grave"

Tolken - "Ignore me folks, I'm just rolling over in here."

:rolleyes: :D :)

WHAT?! No one is going to nit pick my letter and find my spelling/grammar screwups? :( I feel so... so... HAPPY! *dances about the room*

[Fat middle]

Well, i read this article and whole thread at last. :rolleyes:

The Fundamental Baptist Information Service is a listing for Fundamental Baptists and other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians.

i think that statement explains the article: he's not trying to make some sense he's just saying that LOTR is not the Bible (his Fundamental Baptists Bible) so it should be burned in a pire with his author. :D

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I get so aggravated over people like him (the writer of the article) who give Christians a bad name! I must say that I am a Christian and the strongest, most christ-like people I know have nothing against Tolkien or his books! Many of them *like* Tolkien's work.

I can't stand it when self-righteous people who call themselves Christians run around accusing anything artistically expressed to be a message from satan of some sort.

Gtg worship Morgoth now... :p

[Lady Legolas]

My uncle is kinda like that. It's kinda funny, because he is an avid Catholic and he hates Harry Potter, but yet he thinks Lord of the Rings is the best thing since sliced bread. (not that I can complain with him there) But It makes you wonder. Why? It's a freaking fiction book. And thats why whenever he comes over I conviently pick up a Harry Potter book.


¤Lady Legolas¤

[Entlover]

Originally posted by Lady Legolas
My uncle is kinda like that.he thinks Lord of the Rings is the best thing since sliced bread.

I'm kind of like your uncle. I'm Catholic and I've always loved the Lord of the Rings, it's a beautiful example of a work of art dedicated to God's glory. Harry Potter is fun to read, but is not that great, first because it's not as well written, and second because it holds up wizards and witches as heroes, which is definitely unChristian. I read the first one to my kids, but will let them grow up and read the rest themselves if they want.

(OK, Gandalf is a wizard and a hero, but doesn't use black magic, and is in the tradition of fairy tale wizards.)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Entlover
(OK, Gandalf is a wizard and a hero, but doesn't use black magic, and is in the tradition of fairy tale wizards.)

I'd quibble with that, but I really can't be bothered. Lets just say that Gandalf is more fey and terrible than Dumbledore. :rolleyes:

[Sicirus]

but you can still read something like Harry Potter or any other book like that and just not worship or believe in it.

[Entlover]

Originally posted by Sicirus
but you can still read something like Harry Potter or any other book like that and just not worship or believe in it.

True enough, which is why I have no problem reading it. But kids are another matter - they are very impressionable -- how many of us remember significant books of our childhood? And HP is aimed at kids.
I met a witch once - nasty character. I don't think kids should be taught that there can be "good" witches.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Entlover

I met a witch once - nasty character. I don't think kids should be taught that there can be "good" witches.

Why not? Just because you met one that claimed to be a witch and weas nasty? What about if you met one Italian that was in the mafia - would it be acceptable not to teach kids that there are "good" italians?

[Christiana]

Originally posted by Entlover


True enough, which is why I have no problem reading it. But kids are another matter - they are very impressionable -- how many of us remember significant books of our childhood? And HP is aimed at kids.
I met a witch once - nasty character. I don't think kids should be taught that there can be "good" witches.

what a load of puke!kids arnt nessecerely any more impressionable than adults!(okay,well,mabye little kids are)

[Entlover]

Feel free to disagree.:cool:

[Arathorn]

I think that, in that case, parents should read to their kids. It'll help in the bonding and you can explain things in the book the best way you can.

[Starr Polish]

Kids are far more impressionable than adults, in general. Not all, but most. Why do you think peer pressure exists, and why kids give into it? Why do you think commercials aimed at kids and teens advertise things as 'cool'? To make an impression, and kids buy into it.

Why are crap music groups so popular among the teenyboppers? Their image left an impression on the kids. Adults don't buy into that crap nearly as much.

I'm not saying there aren't impressionable adults, but kids and teens are still forming who they are, and they are soaking up ideas and ideals, thus making them more impressionable.

[BeardofPants]

You never fully escape peer pressure, but as you get older, the warts on your hide toughen up.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I couldn't agree with you more, Entlover! You took the words right out of my mouth. I was obsessed with Harry Potter ( :rolleyes: ) for a year or two, until I discovered an entirely new level of depth, wisdom and imagination, which is Middle-Earth. Mind you I still find Harry Potter fun to read and ponder on, of course it's considerably more fun than Tolkien's books, but Middle-Earth and the characters therein are so much more fulfilling, and vast. When I finished Return of the King, I was weepy all day. All these characters I had been acquainted with for the past few months ended. It's like I used to know them but now they have moved away and I can't get in touch. :(

I feel so deprived having finished my first reading of Lord of the Rings! I didn't even realize how lucky I was to have been reading it the first time until I finished it.

I think I will change my name to excessive rambling speeker. :D

-~*Sminty*~-

[ladyisme]

I know what you mean freind. As I look back over the years I recall how depressed I was after I finished ROTK for the first time, but there is some comfort. After all you can't fully enjoy the depth of LOTR untill you've read through it a couple of times. In a way this isn't goodbye so much as getting to know a new freind better. ;)

"The road goes ever on and on down from the door where it began."

[cassiopeia]

Kids are more impressionable than adults. When I was a kid, I believed in ghosts and things like that. What is the fundamental difference between Harry Potter and LOTR? Should we ban all books because they have witches in them? Because they might cause kids to think they are real? In those cases an adult should explain what is real and not. I might point out that in LOTR Saruman is an evil wizard.

[Sanna]

They're probably just jealous because they can't write a beautifully told epic adored by millions of fans for themselves!
That, or they're simply too dumb to understand anything in it, which would explain why they have so much trouble remembering the parts. Tolkien rules! :p

[BeardofPants]

Oh man, it's so true. I remember baby-sitting a kid once, and telling him ghosts did exist just to get a reaction. Poor little tyke. :D

[katya]

wow. that article is completely screwed up. some people are screwed up. reminds me of this girl i know. i hate it how some people give christians a bad name. i myself am a catholic, though i really consider myself a quaker (for real, look into it. its intersting) and i find nothing wrong with lotr or harry potter for that matter. i just dont like harry potter. i was offended (well not really. crazy people who dont know what they are talking about dont really offend me) when he dissed rock music. really, how ignorant can a person be? i wonder if he thinks the newsboys are evil... and well i guess thats it.

[webwizard333]

The problem with many fantasy books is that their definitions of things like magic, wizards, witches, etc. is completly different from their original definitions, which they are still sometime confused with. For example, Harry Potter's witches and wizards hardly correspond to the original meaning of those who use magic in the service of Satan, magic being the abuse of spiritual powers. I would like it if authors would make some mention that they are using different meanings for the words than the meanings used in real life.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by webwizard333
I would like it if authors would make some mention that they are using different meanings for the words than the meanings used in real life.

That would only help the people that are too brainless to see the difference between real life and fanasy. And anyway - that wouldn't make a difference to the people that are so blinded in their faith that they hate things that they have no idea what they're about. Half the people that burn books - haven't read them - so I doubt they'd really reconsider their feelings if on the inside jacket there is a warning "This book is entirely FICTIONAL. Any similarities between religions, real life, people's beliefs, satan, etc are purely coincidental and have no bearing on real life."

[Sicirus]

I agree. Kids are quite ignorent when it comes to true or false stories. They believe in what they hear or read which causes problems.

After reading lotr I cried to, but only because i knew it never happend and i wished it did. I wished Middle Earth existed. But then i found the closest thing to it. Entmoot.:D :p ;)

[entss89]

could someone please help MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! i dont understand. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. never mind.oh and could someone please send me a pm?later aligator.:)

[cassiopeia]

The problem with many fantasy books is that their definitions of things like magic, wizards, witches, etc. is completly different from their original definitions, which they are still sometime confused with. For example, Harry Potter's witches and wizards hardly correspond to the original meaning of those who use magic in the service of Satan, magic being the abuse of spiritual powers. I would like it if authors would make some mention that they are using different meanings for the words than the meanings used in real life.

I think it would be fairly obvious to an intelligent person the meanings of words like wizards and witches. Every kid knows the witches in The Wizard of Oz are good and bad. Should Tolkien mention that dwarves in his books are not the same as human dwarves? I wish that Tolkiens books were real, but they are not. Magic is not real, so what is there to be confused about?

[barrelrider110]

I read every post on this thread, so curiosity got the better of me and I read the article.

I thought the author's name (Cloud) to be quite appropriate. Consider Merriam-Webster's definitions:

Definitions for Cloud:
1 : a visible mass of particles of condensed vapor
2 : a light filmy, puffy, or billowy mass seeming to float in the air 3 : something that has a dark, lowering, or threatening aspect
4 : something that obscures or blemishes
5 : a dark or opaque vein or spot

He stated that LoTR is evil because Rock-n-roll is evil and Led Zepplin (a particularly evil rock band) wrote a song inspired by it?

I think this guy's mind has left the building.

[samwiselvr2008]

I have never herd of the rock- in-roll band that he mentiond, but maybe that is a good thing! I still think that ther is good rock- in- roll, so even if a bad band sung a song that Tolkien inspired, so what? Can an evil group (indavigual?) not enjoy a book?

[barrelrider110]

Love from Jesus to you, too, samwiselvr2008.

I have never herd of the rock- in-roll band that he mentiond
Led Zeppelin, late 60's/early 70's, "Stairway to Heaven"? Ring a bell? No? I feel old. Never mind.

Mr. Cloud labeled these groups evil because of their notoriously salacious lifestyles. Certainly rock stars of that era (as well as the present) enjoyed success, fame, and the abject devotion of their fans in such excess to the point of absurdity. Money, drugs, and sex were so readily available and these people from humble backrounds had not the strength to resist (like Gollum?). Rock and roll became their own "ring" of power, some that lead to their demise (Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison).

The purpose of the article, I think, was to counterpoint some Christian Scholars that stated that the book and the movie were fine examples of Christian values. I don't think he intended to label LoTR as an evil work. Mr. Cloud is entitled to his opinion. Someone suggested he be invited to join the discussion on Entmoot, which I would welcome, but I think he's not likely to win many converts over here.

[webwizard333]

That would only help the people that are too brainless to see the difference between real life and fanasy. And anyway - that wouldn't make a difference to the people that are so blinded in their faith that they hate things that they have no idea what they're about.
True JD, but I was reffering to the children. Anyways, I thought about it and realized the Fiction label should be enough of a mention of differences from real life.


Magic is not real, so what is there to be confused about?
Many people believe in magic. To this day, people still do blood sacrifices and try to channel spirits. I think its rediculous, but many people do believe in magic and such. If you want examples go to Salem, MA or watch John Edwards.

[cassiopeia]

Many people believe in magic. To this day, people still do blood sacrifices and try to channel spirits. I think its rediculous, but many people do believe in magic and such. If you want examples go to Salem, MA or watch John Edwards.

Thats why the world is declining...........

[Christiana]

i belive in magic,but not in the flashy kind.i mean,the gift of life is magical.you might not bealbbe to touch magic,but it is there.and stop dissing kids.

[Entlover]

Originally posted by barrelrider110
I don't think he intended to label LoTR as an evil work. Mr. Cloud is entitled to his opinion.

I disagree. Having glanced over the article again, it appears to me that he is labelling LotR as occult and therefore evil. He also finds fault with Tolkien for being Catholic, clearly equating Catholicism with occultism. Having been an Evangelical Christian who converted to Catholicism, I find his attitude slightly idiotic. Fools are certainly welcome to their opinions, but I don't have to pay any attention to them.

[BeardofPants]

Hear! Hear!

(Nobody had better start a debate on which "hear" that is supposed to be! If it's good enough for tolkien, it's good enough for me.)

[Sicirus]

Originally posted by Entlover


I disagree. Having glanced over the article again, it appears to me that he is labelling LotR as occult and therefore evil. He also finds fault with Tolkien for being Catholic, clearly equating Catholicism with occultism. Having been an Evangelical Christian who converted to Catholicism, I find his attitude slightly idiotic. Fools are certainly welcome to their opinions, but I don't have to pay any attention to them.

I agree with you on that.

[Allorien]

Jeez. Some people, hey??? They think that unless a book is titled "The Holy Bible" it's of the devil (mind you, that is only some, like that guy. I'm not saying ALL christians/catholics are like that) Man, that guy was a jackpot.
Oh did anyone read his assessment of Harry Potter? (I know it' kinda off-topic, but it's on the same site we're talking about) Well J.K. Rowling is just as much of a Satan-Worshipping demon as a devout Catholic man who converted CS Lewis to Christianity. Jeez some people!!!!
Hey lets all go burn our Tolkien books and movies because although they are about good defeating evil, small beings changing the future, because some people have found Christian stuff in them, and because the man who wrote them was himself a catholic they are EVIL. Just cuz some moron says so. :rolleyes:

[Sicirus]

There are alot of people like that. But it doesen't mean all christians beleive that. Course burning a book won't get rid of everyones opinions that like the books.

[RosieCotton]

Originally posted by Sicirus
There are alot of people like that. But it doesen't mean all christians beleive that. Course burning a book won't get rid of everyones opinions that like the books.

Good point. Even if they would ban books like LotR *shiver* that wouldn't make us dislike them or think they are immoral.

[samwiselvr2008]

Hey, is it okay if I e- mailed whoever wrote that and gave him this page? Did anyone do that yet? That is of course if he has a thing on his page so that you can email him!

[Comic Book Guy]

No, Entmoot cannot allow that.

[samwiselvr2008]

okay, sorry:D

[Beruthiel]

Whoa, I'm not going to get angry about this fellow's article because it was so poorly written.
He forgot that Gandalf is an "angel", not a wizard. The word "wizard" was used to reflect the English translation of Maiar. It was the closest translation possible.

The only witch would be Galadriel, whom Boromir was afeared of. She performs a divination. That in itself is done by many Catholics, although they call it entertainment these days. (See astrology, tarot, party games.) Occult might descibe some things, like the Balrogs, but it does not really account for anything else. Indeed, when Sam asks the Elves "Are they magic cloaks?" The Elves laugh at Sam. Magic is not magic, it is science to them, or traditional crafts.

[Linarryl]

Grrrrr.... curse them.....Grrrrr....:mad:

[Tar-Palantir]

[I'm won't even say what I think of people like this and the bible.]

I hope you aren't making the mistake of thinking people like this represent what the Bible is about. There are idiots in every circle. Wouldn't you agree?

I'm a conservative, evangelical Christian. I also think David Cloud is an idiot. And I'm reading THE HOBBIT to my six year old. Does that make you feel any better?

[madeyejay]

I think it is very funny when people talk about things being works of the devil or something like that. People like to make too much out of things. Being a big HP fan you hear many of the same things. To me, unless a book is specifisly speaking out about your religion, then don't be so offensive. Take things for what they are. Just because something does not praise your "GOD" or express the truth in your faith, does not mean it is the work of some horned red creature with a long pointed tail.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by madeyejay
I think it is very funny when people talk about things being works of the devil or something like that. People like to make too much out of things. Being a big HP fan you hear many of the same things. To me, unless a book is specifisly speaking out about your religion, then don't be so offensive. Take things for what they are. Just because something does not praise your "GOD" or express the truth in your faith, does not mean it is the work of some horned red creature with a long pointed tail.

You're preaching to the choir here I think. (grin)

[Christiana]

im a loyal Christian,but i read tons of books like LOTr.

[crickhollow]

Have you ever wondered how much these close-minded people miss in the world? I mean it's their own fault, but to go around condemning people to hell is to live a very graceless life. and that's what the christian faith is all about. He reminds me of the story of two men praying in the temple. the first recognizes his sin, and prays, "O LORD, have mercy on me, for I am a sinful man." The second man and says, "O LORD, I thank you that you have not made me like the wretch who is here beside me." can you be more arrogant?

"Christianity of sorts" what does he mean by that? You either are a Christian, or you are not.

*shakes head*

I recently stumbled onto a website that called CS Lewis the "devils wisest fool", and was all about how evil CS Lewis was (mentions something about drinking and smoking as well, as if that automatically condemns one to hell), and (believe it or not) how the Chronicles of Narnia will lead your children into devil worship. I'd post the link, but I did a search, and a lot of the links are broken, so I won't bother. anyway, the main thing he references for the Narnia thing is Silanus (sp?) and Bacchus in Prince Caspian

[Lief Erikson]

LOL! :D C.S. Lewis leading people to hell. That's rich :).


Oh, but crickhollow, it is possible to be a Christian-of-sorts. There are people who say they're Christian, but who aren't firm in their faith and who don't have a personal relationship with Jesus. There are plenty of people like that, unfortunately, and it is such people as that that cause trouble for Christianity as a whole. Some of them are hard nosed prigs, like the one who posted this message about LoTR, while others don't set any good example, but calling themselves Christians, proceed to do whatever the rest of the world does so long as it feels good for them.

Anyway, that's out of topic. Simply a side-note.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

A while back I very POLITELY and PATIENTLY sent him an email explaining that I am a strong Christian but that I have studied Tolkien probably more extensively than he, and I explained the Maiar thing. He never emailed me back. Fools don't like to be corrected...

[Kallasilya]

Originally posted by Entlover
True enough, which is why I have no problem reading it. But kids are another matter - they are very impressionable -- how many of us remember significant books of our childhood? And HP is aimed at kids.
I met a witch once - nasty character. I don't think kids should be taught that there can be "good" witches.

Oh come now... I consider myself to be a witch, and I'm not all THAT nasty, now am I? Lol, seriously though, I've met a lot of people who are down on witches just because they've met one bad apple. Let's just say witches like that are exactly the same as Christians that wrote that stupid article. We're not all bad :D

And to be on topic: ... Gah. What can I say, that site says POKEMON is promoting the devil... :rolleyes:

[sun-star]

Oh, but crickhollow, it is possible to be a Christian-of-sorts. There are people who say they're Christian, but who aren't firm in their faith and who don't have a personal relationship with Jesus. There are plenty of people like that, unfortunately, and it is such people as that that cause trouble for Christianity as a whole. Some of them are hard nosed prigs, like the one who posted this message about LoTR, while others don't set any good example, but calling themselves Christians, proceed to do whatever the rest of the world does so long as it feels good for them.

That's true, but it's not our decision to make. Outsiders can have no idea of an individual's relationship to God. What the writer of this article is doing is making that judgement himself, without thinking maybe he should attend to the log in his own eye (or whatever that quote is) rather than judging other people. And now I'm doing the same thing, because that man might be a saint. Wouldn't put money on it, though :D

In fact, that's almost this writer's whole problem. He doesn't allow that Tolkien (or indeed JK Rowling) may in fact have known rather better than him what they were doing, and what the effects might be, and not deliberately leading people to Satan. :rolleyes:

[Lief Erikson]

I think it is fair for Christians to condemn, to other Christians, material that is occultic in nature. You can't simply dump all material out there into one bin and say that we don't have the right to judge. Some of it plainly is wrong, but if you're going to make judgements, it is good to pray for discernment and to be careful. I think that author is just down on fantasy.

And I also think that you can determine who is a Christian by their fruit; if Christ is working in a person's life and you know how to look for it, you will see it. On the other hand, if the person isn't behaving in their outward actions as if the inward change has taken place, then that can be seen too, sometimes.

[zavron]

I hate religeous fanatics theyre so damn ....... RELIGEOUS!!!..... they think theyre in touch with god....... WAKE AND SMELL THE SEAWEED PEOPLE ITS ALL BLOODY RUBBISH!!!! i dont mind religeon itself but you shouldnt devote your whole life in being like a hippy!! if you want to devote your life to religeon become a monk for gods sake!!!!! If you want to do something do it the proper way!!!



Never laugh at live dragons!!!


zavron

[Lief Erikson]

If you saw fire fall down from heaven, or saw the Red Sea parted, or heard a voice from no human being, but from heaven, would you believe?

[webwizard333]

And to be on topic: ... Gah. What can I say, that site says POKEMON is promoting the devil...
Well, it is a game that promotes making little creatures fight against one another so you can obtain petty badges and capture more and inprison them in marbles. :rolleyes:

Though I believe that the author has the right to say what he wants to say about such subjects, I think its just silly and shows an inability to comprehend the reading material. Tolkien's works, I find are suffused with brilliant moral statements, while at the same time telling are moving and brilliant story.

[Lief Erikson]

:D Everyone here agrees with you.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by zavron
I hate religeous fanatics theyre so damn ....... RELIGEOUS!!!..... they think theyre in touch with god....... WAKE AND SMELL THE SEAWEED PEOPLE ITS ALL BLOODY RUBBISH!!!! i dont mind religeon itself but you shouldnt devote your whole life in being like a hippy!! if you want to devote your life to religeon become a monk for gods sake!!!!! If you want to do something do it the proper way!!!

zavron

LOL That sounds pretty fanatical to me.

But I do agree with your last statement about doing something in the proper way.

Why should I become a monk? I think I'll be content with being an English Baptist, not from England mind you, but an English Baptist nonetheless.

And if you're ever in the Pelennor Fields of east Texas, drop in and we'll discuss this religious fanaticism over a good cigar. What do you say?

[TolkienGurl]

Thank goodness not all religious people are like that! I'm Christian and I absolutely LOVE the Lord of the Rings. Don't worry - I'm not possessed by the devil! :D

[Lanelf]

Welcome TolkienGurl! Glad to see you on the Moot!
Anyway, the way I think, this is not some satanic thing. If you actually look, there is a (sorta) major Evil figure (eg Melkor, Sauron etc) and the fight agains it and isn't that the idea? I mean, you can't be worshipping something if you're kicking it, can you? I just don't get some people... And I'm Christian, too...*shakes head and walks off muttering*
Lanelf.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

Well- it never occused it of being satanic did it? Just, being involved with the occult... which some pagans would consider themself a part of... and most pagans and stuff in the occult consider themselves the "good" using "good" magic against the "bad" and "evil"... correct me if i am wrong. I have talked to a pagan online before concerning religion and it seemed to me that they are very much as good and peaceful as christians, and that they believe in keeping the environment and harmony and stuff.

But the difference- they worship something other than the Christian God- they worship a God who can take on different forms. So i suppose to point isn't whether they're "good" or "bad" -the point is, they don't worship the christian God.
So they are "good" fighting against "evil" using magic and worship other than the christian god. It is much the same way in Middle-Earth, right? Any thing with magic can be taken wrongly and be a bad influence on some people.

[TolkienGurl]

Thanks, Lanelf! It's nice to meet all of you!

[englishnerd]

Tolkien is about story. People respond instantly to buzzwords "wizard" "magic" "evil" "spell" and "fantasy," but the language, the actual words out of context will not determine the "good" or "bad" of the book...it's whole story together that gives you the morality, ideas, and worldview that is being presented.

I'm sure most of you knew that, but I wanted to establish my grounds first :-).

the main thing about websites like this one is that by claiming to be a Christian, this person is subscribing to Christ's calling to the church...Jesus' one commandment was to "love your neighbor as yourself, and love one another as I have loved you." Christ's love was sacrificial, an atoning for judgement, and, in fact, the complete opposite of the judgemental actions and words that this person was displaying under the name of Christian. As was pointed out earlier, no "outsider," although I'm not sure I like that word, can know anyone else's heart, but when actions and words are not reflecting the standard they claim, the person deserves to be held accountable to the same standard they claim allegiance to. If a soldier goes AWOL, the army has the right to judge him according to his commitments. don't be afraid to hold people accountable to their own critical standard, but don't strike back at them in the same way that was so offensive to you. um...okay I think I'm done. sorry for the length.

[sun-star]

As was pointed out earlier, no "outsider," although I'm not sure I like that word, can know anyone else's heart, but when actions and words are not reflecting the standard they claim, the person deserves to be held accountable to the same standard they claim allegiance to. If a soldier goes AWOL, the army has the right to judge him according to his commitments. don't be afraid to hold people accountable to their own critical standard, but don't strike back at them in the same way that was so offensive to you.
You're right: we should hold people accountable to the standards they profess to hold - but certainly not to our personal standards. I may be wrong, but I believe each person should deal with living up to their own standards, before worrying if anyone else does (which is what the phrase 'Christian of sorts' used in this article implies). Of course you can (sometimes) tell if people are behaving like hypocritics, but being a hypocrite is not the same as being different to what the person making the judgement believes. Also: 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. Leave God to make the decisions on the correctness or otherwise of someone's life and beliefs - and help them base their 'standards' on God.

This is off topic, anyway :) .

And if I'm off topic: by the way, englishnerd, are you english? Where are you from?

[DraztiK]

And to be on topic: ... Gah. What can I say, that site says POKEMON is promoting the devil...

That must've been a Protestant, cuz the *Pope* publicly stated he likes Pokémon.

[Lanelf]

And to be on topic: ... Gah. What can I say, that site says POKEMON is promoting the devil...

And Pokemon is *not* evil? Eep, I always thought so!;)That Pikachu is seriously scary!
Lanelf.

[webwizard333]

I'm 99.9% sure that the author is Protestant, mainly because of his articles concerning the positive results of the Protestant Reformation.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by webwizard333
I'm 99.9% sure that the author is Protestant, mainly because of his articles concerning the positive results of the Protestant Reformation.

I'm surprised to find that he had anything good to say about the Protestant reformation. I was under the impression that Mr. Cloud is of a right-wing sect of Baptists who do not consider themselves Protestants either. I do know he is baptist if you want to be specific. But he is certainly not mainstream. Nor is his name even recognizable among baptists outside of a very small circle that he serves. This one thread has gotten him more fame than his useless article deserved. He most certainly does not represent mainstream thought, even in American evangelical circles.

[Christiana]

man,its a free country.people have a right to be stupid.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Christiana
man,its a free country.people have a right to be stupid.

Man, that's true. (grin)

[DraztiK]

to bad we don't have the right to ERADICATE the stupid people

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by DraztiK
to bad we don't have the right to ERADICATE the stupid people

That's what Adolf Hitler thought.

[DraztiK]

And he would've gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for them pesky kids and their dog ;)

[Christiana]

:confused: ??????????? :confused:

[BeardofPants]

I think he's making a tasteless Scooby Doo joke.

Christiana:
man,its a free country.people have a right to be stupid.

LOL! :D

[WallRocker]

It's people like these that give Christian's a bad name. This guy does not appear to know what he is talking about. While I'm sure he is very sincere of his beleife's, he is obviously misleade. If anyone is intrested, I've got a link from Focus on the Family's web site that give another side of the Tolkein story. Also, Even thought Tolkien did not write LOTR as an Allegory, I believe you could take it that way. Like the complete corruption that sin has in a persons life. With the Ring represnting sin. Anyway, heres the link: http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/magic/#LordoftheRings

[Elfhelm]

He's wrong on several points. The Istari are not "wizards". Simple people call them wizards, but they are more like angels. And there are fallen ones as well as loyal ones, just like the Catholic angels.

LOTR did not give rise to D&D. Tolkien and other played war games. War games existed before LOTR. Chain Mail was created by Gary Gygax as a war game with sword and sorcery powers added in. D&D developed from that. Sword and Sorcery is a different genre completely. Robert E. Howard was publishing Conan-like novels while Tolkien was still writing old english versions of the tale of Luthien Tinuviel. I believe Howard killed himself before The Hobbit ever came out. So it would be more appropriate to say that D&D rose out of war games and the books of Edgar Rice Burroughs and Robert E. Howard. After it was started, though, Gygax added elves and "halflings". But note that he wasn't allowed to use the word "hobbit".

While the unconcious mind contains many mythical tales, one sect would have me believe I can ignore most of them and only embrace the "sacrifice" myth. Try as I may, those other myths will surface. If I don't bring Grendel to light, he will prowl my backstreets and dark alleys and strike when I least expect him. A modern example of Grendel is Columbine High School. If my image of the world does not include these monsters, I will not be prepared to deal with their montrous acts.

I am not trying to take anything away from the Orphic myth, but these other myths can't be supressed without serious harm to the society. At the very least, we need to have them as stories enacted in our movie theatres and on the screen.

One more thing (I'm sorry I do carry on), the sacrifice myth does occur whether JRRT admits it or not. He descends into the deeps and rises again stronger and holier than ever. You all know who I mean. ;)

[zavron]

It's just aloud of Idiots that say they've been cured by god, and they used to be unclean until they found god and now there just picture perfect. They're all just Bible-Black Tyrants!!!

[TolkienGurl]

Some people need to lighten up. People are afraid of what they don't understand, and clearly this man does not understand the Lord of the Rings. He needs to read the books, and then judge them! Anyway, all his claims are false as there is no evidence to back them up. What a bunch of dung, I say.

TolkienGurl:D

[Andrew Baggins]

"Why LOTR is the work of the devil" - well i just read an artical a few days ago about a priest or someone like that releasing a book about how LotR is a Christian book or somthing. Very weird.

[OrlandoFan234]

Hey, that guy talks bad about J.R.R Tolkien how come he doesn't talk bad about J.K.Rolien? (Author of Harry Potter)! And no Led Zepland wasn't born when J.R.R tolkien was writing these books! Some people are just interesting!!!

[OrlandoFan234]

I had another thought! LOTR's is about the fight against good and evil. Well that guy said that it was such an evil book how come the good side wins!?! Just a thought! The only thing I can think of that would go with that is that he is evil himself so he thought it was an evil book when the good side won!?! I don't know what do you guys think about it?

[Elfhelm]

Well, his logic is just brilliant. he says when he was a soldier in the 60's he was anti-Christian. At that time he read the books and loved them. Therefore, they must be evil. Now THAT is just unquestionably rational! LOL!

All you can do is laugh about this sort of thing.

[claudia silver]

This is the best bit:

"The world knows its own; and when the demonic world of fantasy role-playing and the morally filthy world of rock and roll love something, you can be sure it is not godly and it is not the truth."

:D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree with Christiana; these people give Christians a bad name. Tolkien was a devout Christian (probably, that guy thinks that Catholics are Satanists who pretend to be Christians :rolleyes: ). He loved the ancient Norse mythology; Middle-Earth was a mythology created by Tolkien to be an acceptable Christian mythology. But since this guy does not sound very keen on Lewis, so it seems even the most obvious allegory isn't good enough for him. People like this make me sad because of their lack of knowledge, and angry because they make people of my faith seem like worthless, unintelligible fools who think there's a demon in every door-knocker.

EDIT:

Have you ever wondered how much these close-minded people miss in the world? I mean it's their own fault, but to go around condemning people to hell is to live a very graceless life. and that's what the christian faith is all about. He reminds me of the story of two men praying in the temple. the first recognizes his sin, and prays, "O LORD, have mercy on me, for I am a sinful man." The second man and says, "O LORD, I thank you that you have not made me like the wretch who is here beside me." can you be more arrogant?

The Christian faith is not about condemning everyone to hell. It is about spreading the gospel to others, letting them know that they don't have to.

And also, someone said that "wizard" is a translation of Maiar. Well, first off, Maiar is plural; Maia is the singular. "Wizard" is actually used as a translation of the word Istar. The Istari were a group of (at least five) Maiar who came around 3A 1000 to help unify the Free Peoples against Sauron, etc, and I'm blabbering on.

RE-EDIT: Those of you who are Christians might be interested in some books by Harold Myra. The Choice is one, but Children in the Night, The Shining Face, and Morning Child. Also, the books by Peretti are good, as well as Sedona Storm and Secrets of the Gathering Darkness (those are books about angels vs. demons in the present-day world). Man, I sound like a salesman. Sorry.

[Faelnor]

Yeesh.:rolleyes: I agree with Gwaimir Windgem.

[Christiana]

Wherers this guy from?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The article says Port Huron, MI.

I tried sending him an email, starting off with describing my solid Christian background, hoping to win him over, but it seems that I had no such luck. :( Ah well, at least I got to refer him to some more good Christian fantasy. I wonder if he'll read any of it?

[Blackboar]

Originally posted by jediguy
There's only one thing I can do when coming across these articles:

(<-) Back

Me too!!!!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It doesn't bother me that much, because I know how far from the truth it is. It's kinda funny, kinda sad, with a small measure of irittating.

[Christiana]

Trade-off for free speech on the net:any idiot can say whatever comes into his head.

[Wayfarer]

What I really want to know is-

Why do we make such a big deal about things like this? Is an article this bad really worth getting worked up over?

I, for one, am just ignoring it.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, the article itself doesn't bother me; it's so completely off-track it amuses me. But also, I don't like that people of the same faith as me are so completely wrong, calling such an overtly Christian work Satanic. I had to try to show him the truth, even though I knew it was highly unlikely he'd listen.